Chris, what you mention may help but it's not a solution, I don't think there's such thing other than what Andrew says about accepting getting somewhat wet. I take is as fact: backpacking in long-lasting rain, a membrane will leave you wet. Humidity source (inside or outside) is not that important; I guess it's mostly from inside but I also think water has this ability to find its way if you give it time so at the end of the non-stop rainy day you're wet and it's probably coming both ways.

Membranes are diverse: there are monolithic (ie, solid) membranes where what Andrew said about reversed moisture transfer probably happens, maybe not, but those membranes anyway are the most resistant to transfer (breath little) so it's probably more about inside humidity. Porous membranes breath better and are also more prone to water penetration from outside with use (dirt, body oils) having a known effect on this.

Whatever the membrane, there's a wide area that's not gonna breathe because it's covered by the pack and we get wet there. Pit zips may help but I don't think they can do much. Adjusting the pace helps too, as it does stopping under cover, if at all possible, and try to vent internal moisture for a few minutes. Or using an umbrella, if at all possible, to allow for much more direct ventilation than pit zips would allow (front torso and head).

Sometimes everything is dripping wet. We cannot expect to be the only dry thing around. Getting wet is part of the deal.

I believe that Andrew has this correct. All of the WP/B fabrics are designed to withstand light moisture at the expense of breathability. The materials involve will all work in BOTH directions, soo, they don't really work. Wet from rain, wet from perspiration. Either way, you get wet. And forget anything that involves a high degree of external moisture. Trying to use a WP/B shell in fairly cold conditions with 100% humidity means you WILL get wet. They simply do not vent quickly enough. Water builds up quickly, from the inside, while you hike.

I have tried a few, they never worked for me. Here in the ADK's they always get me wet after a few hours...good for a quick day hike. Or, maybe for shedding snow. Fleece works almost as well and stays warmer when you do start wetting out. It does not prevent moisture from prenetrating, but the fabric "body" is better protected from mist and rain. Once that fabric is wet, the WP/B stops. But there is enough stiffness to the fleece to still maintain insulation, wet or dry. And, because of the PET base fabric, it does not absorb moisture, soo, it dryes a bit quicker when given the chance. I've hung my fleece and watched water run out of it when wet and fairly clean. The biggest down side is it doesn't last a long time. One, maybe two seasons is about it. But, hey...they are cheeep. One trick is to stretch them out on a table and brush one side for a couple minutes with a stiffer hair brush. Then turn them inside out and repeat the process. This will hold the fleeciness out and keep the fleece (combed and pulled at the factory) from getting tangled and matted.

Andrew, Good Book, Thanks!

Great book, but ironically heavy, thinking about trimming off the covers & table of contents!

Edited by pgjgarcia on 03/15/2012 21:07:46 MDT.

I was wondering, is there any mention of the usage of bivy bags in the book? I know that the review stated that Andrew prefers tarps, but still I would like to know if this particular gear item is mentioned/addressed as a shelter option.

Also, given light of the performance (well, failure) of WP/B jackets, and considering that many bivys are constructed from the same fabrics as jackets (Gore-Tex, eVent, etc.), I would be interested in reading/hearing Andrew's insight on the subject.

Edited by NightMarcher on 03/17/2012 20:46:49 MDT.

He likes to use water resistant (but not WP/B) bivies under his tarps. He does not care for stand alone WP/B bivies (too muggy, not comfortable in rainy weather etc). Come to think of it I dont' think very many people here ever use WP/B bivies.

"Come to think of it I dont' think very many people here ever use WP/B bivies."

I do and Ryan Jordan does. Otherwise, you may be correct.

"Come to think of it I dont' think very many people here ever use WP/B bivies."

I think the Integral Designs' eVent bivies, Mountain Laurel Designs' eVent bivies, as well as some non-eVent bivies (Mont-Bell) have a loyal following here. As for whether they are used strictly as stand-alone bivies, I am not too sure...

Edited by NightMarcher on 03/17/2012 23:56:34 MDT.

The locations shown on the linked map don't show date/time for the clinics, and not all locations are included in the list of scheduled events below the map.

Wonder if those clinics/events without dates and times on the map are "yet to be scheduled" --- or have they already been held? For example, Portland, OR.

Thanks.

I'm a relative newbie to backpacking. I'm the sort who when deciding packs or sleeping bags or stoves will burn four or five hours non-stop in google searches. I joined here last year and worked the search button pretty seriously. At this point I have a lot of web learnin' but just a half dozen nights out (hundreds of day hikes/mtbs though).

I got The Ultimate Hiker's Gear Guide from the library yesterday and gave it a fast skim. I like it. It represents a lot of the same information you find in a forum like this, but nicely organized. No four hour searches required. It has those "Skurka's picks" which save time and cut across a lot of discussion.

It is a great introduction and survey for non-obsessives.

From there you can go on to multi-hour searches on aluminum versus titanium Caldera Cones ... or not, at your preference.

I finished it recently, and it was a good read. I'd recommend it over Chris Townsend's latest edition of his Backpacker's Handbook. There were only a few things that stuck out at me as odd (or wrong IMHO). The torso length issue was already addressed and Andrew explained why he goes smaller if given the choice. Perhaps I missed these others:

1. "Don't be tempted to use a Walmart grease pot or a Foster's beer can - neither is durable enough for a week-long trip, and the Foster's can has horrible efficiency..." Seems like thru-hikers have used these before. I certainly haven't had any trouble with a Heineken can. I'll admit the Foster's would not be as robust as a Heineken unless you add your own ridges to it (or buy one from zelph). I can't imagine why one wouldn't last for at least a year. As for efficiency, the loss from wide and tall shape is mostly offset by the gain from the very thin metal. Works great on my Super Cat.

2. "Viruses are the second most common pathogen in North American water sources. Bacteria are the least common." Everything I've read indicates this is wrong - it's reversed. Viruses are a non-issue here.

3. "My first aid kit grew markedly bigger after I took an 80-hour, ten-day Wilderness First Responder course..." I recall a thread here where the majority claimed exactly the opposite effect (myself included) though most had taken the shorter WFA course. Even if I was in a group, I would not take a CPR mask.

There may have been a few other questionable things but those stuck out so much to me that I dogearred the pages. Great job overall though. Much better than the sample chapter he had originally posted a year ago. The more mainstream distribution for this should help educate more newbies into going lightweight.

I finally got around to purchasing the book, and I have to say that I thoroughly enjoyed reading it. I would recommend it for anyone starting out in any sort of self-propelled outdoor pursuit (not only hiking), as the smart lightweight philosophy transfers over to those activities fairly well.

I don't know if Andrew is still following this thread, but I was curious as to what mummy bag he pairs with his MLD Spirit quilt. He mentions the technique in "Skurka's Picks" (p 86), but doesn't mention which specific brand/model of mummy bag he uses in this approach.

Of course, YMMV, "it's not a gear guide..." etc. But still, I would like to know.

I hope that Andrew does decide to publish a book on his Alaska-Yukon Expedition. That would make for a good read...

This round table has convinced me to buy the book. Thanks.

I also appreciate that I am not the only person to think WPB materials are over-hyped and don't do a good job of keeping you dry. I frankly get frustrated that nearly everything being sold now is some version of WPB membrane. I would love to get a light shell that is 100% impermeable but has features like pit zips, zipper pockets, removable (or stow-in-collar) hood, and a durable material that can take a bit of bushwhacking. I have an old WPB shell that I'm tempted to figure out how to fully waterproof because it meets everything I want except that it's not waterproof.

"I have an old WPB shell that I'm tempted to figure out how to fully waterproof because it meets everything I want except that it's not waterproof."

I have an old wind jacket that is nylon. I sealed it into a rain jacket using diluted calk. Sort'of like a glorified tent. It works....

James-

Can you elaborate? How did you seal the jacket with diluted caulk? What did you dilute with and what method did you use to apply it to the jacket? Thanks-

Standard stuff, mostly. Mineral spirits and high quality silcone caulk (or calk...same word, different spelling.) About 10:1 mineral spirits:calk. Stretch it out and do both sides working it in well. Not a real heavy coat after it it worked in, it adds about .4oz per yard...more is probably overkill and cause peeling.

I did a plain old wind breaker. Inside, then propped it open with some sticks and outside. This was untreated fabric, though. If you start with silnylon or the like, then a light coat, say about 20:1, should work. Frankly, DWR never worked all that well in storms for me. I get about 6 hours of fairly dry time, then it starts wetting out. A fully waterproof jacket does as well, but it wets out from the inside, due to sweat in about 6 hours. Soo, generally, I don't use any. Just quick drying clothing in summer. Later in fall, I use it, though. Hiking cold means I don't perspire much. Better to be cool all day than wet at camp and at night. Often, a light T shirt and rain jacket is all I use for temps down to about 35-40F. 50F it gets too warm, so I just use a nylon or poly long sleeved shirt. They will dry in about 15-20 minutes after a rain. Again, this means hiking a bit cool, allowing my exertion to regulate my heat. Faster/harder if I feel cold. But, this is mostly solo hiking for me the past few years. Shivering cold is OK as long as you recognize the danger of loosing energy and going into hypothermia. At that point I add something else to get wet. Wet clothing is far better than no clothing. Keep your cloths ON, even if they are soaked, untill you can get them off and change in a dry area.

Chris -

I have, but don't recommend, pairing a quilt with a mummy. If you need a winter-worthy sleep system but don't have the cash to buy one, that's the time to do it. But having just one bag is better than having two -- simpler and warmer for its weight.

The 0-deg mummy bag I intentionally left unmentioned. It was a GoLite mummy bag. Unless they have changed the dimensions, you have to be very lean to fit inside of it while wearing additional clothing. Part of the reason I took it down to -25F without zipping it up was because I might have suffocated.

Glad you liked the book. I agree that it's not a "gear guide" and I argued hard with NG on this point, but they had final say over the title.

Andrew