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Steven Hanlon
(asciibaron) - F

Locale: Mid Atlantic
i was cold... on 02/27/2012 10:55:29 MST Print View

i went out for an overnighter - 14 miles each way and stayed in a shelter. the weather was going to be in the low 30's and very windy that evening. we arrived at the shelter site at 3:30pm and i put on a long sleeve polyester shirt and Primaloft vest over my short and long sleeve Merino wool shirts that i had worn while hiking. i was only wearing a pair of REI Sahara pants.

about 20 minutes later i started to feel really cold in my core. i figured that was because my body was cooling off from the hiking so i started to collect fire wood for about 25 minutes and i warmed up. i tried sitting in the shelter out of the wind after collecting wood, but i started to get cold very quickly - i wasn't sweating from my wood collecting chore, but i was shivering.

at 5pm i boiled water and put it in the freeze dried package and then climbed into my sleeping bag from the waist down to stay warm. i ate my dinner in my bag and after a short walk after dinner i started to warm up.

at 6pm i got the fire going and after 15 minutes or so i felt fine. the fire wasn't very big and the wind wasn't helping until there was enough hot coals to radiate the heat in my direction. i stayed up until 10pm and in those four hours didn't feel cold until it was time to change into my sleeping shirt and silk pants. once in the bag i was quickly warm and toasty.

i think i felt overly cold due to my body cooling down after hiking all day and being hungry. my body didn't have the resources to fuel my core and since i was at rest, my core temp dropped rather quickly. i thought i had enough warm layers to stay warm, and after dinner while building up the fire from a flicker, i didn't feel the cold that i did after the hike and before dinner.

my wife says i'm a furnace and i can hike in 30 degree temps in shorts and a long sleeve wool shirt and feel comfortable. the dip in core temp is hard to deal with and it only lasts for a few hours until my body has some fuel to burn. maybe i should eat a large snack about an hour before i plan to camp?

anyone have this kind of issue and if so, how have you dealt with it. this happened last month as well and i had far warmer gear on that trip and the hiking was less miles and not nearly as cold and windy.

Edited by asciibaron on 02/27/2012 10:58:15 MST.

Travis Leanna
(T.L.) - MLife

Locale: Wisconsin
Re: i was cold... on 02/27/2012 10:59:50 MST Print View

What was on your head?

Steven Hanlon
(asciibaron) - F

Locale: Mid Atlantic
on my head??? on 02/27/2012 11:05:49 MST Print View

i was wearing a stocking cap the entire time and i forgot that i had on a shell jacket too.

<--- that hat and that jacket to be exact

Edited by asciibaron on 02/27/2012 11:06:34 MST.

Walter Carrington
(Snowleopard) - M

Locale: Mass.
Too little insulation. on 02/27/2012 11:27:13 MST Print View

For a windy 30F evening you were drastically under dressed for sitting around. While you were exercising heavily you were producing a lot of heat and could get by lightly clothed. Once you sat down you were producing less heat than you were losing.

Take a look at Richard Nisley's article:
http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/forums/thread_display.html?forum_thread_id=9378

Using his chart, when sitting and talking at 30F you need insulation with an lcl clo of about 3.50. You'd need at least a Pata. R1 hoodie plus a Polarguard Micropuff pullover and vest. Probably you'd need an additional layer over all that.

It was windy so that made it worse.

For those conditions I'd think you had three choices:
carry a down parka,
get into your sleeping bag while eating,
or, as you did, use a fire to keep warm.

Mary D
(hikinggranny) - MLife

Locale: Gateway to Columbia River Gorge
i was cold.. on 02/27/2012 11:42:48 MST Print View

Having been there, done that, I agree with Walter 100%. A nice warm puffy parka with hood was needed. It might also help to have more leg insulation while sitting around (base layer bottoms would probably do it, under your hiking pants and with rain or wind pants on top).

Edited by hikinggranny on 02/27/2012 11:44:26 MST.

John S.
(jshann) - F
Re: i was cold... on 02/27/2012 11:46:27 MST Print View

Low 30's with wind (windchill in 20's) would require more windblocking/insulation. A vest won't cut it for me at those temps. We had one evening like this, but had no shelter in where we were cooking our meals. Everyone retreated to their tents/sleeping bags very early.

Edited by jshann on 02/27/2012 11:47:00 MST.

Ben 2 World
(ben2world) - MLife

Locale: So Cal
Re: i was cold... on 02/27/2012 12:06:12 MST Print View

To be shivering that quickly, I wonder if it's a combination of:

1. your inner layer was sufficiently soaked by your sweat -- even if you didn't feel the full extent
2. your additional layers were inadequate for resting @ low 30's
3. your body was already too tired out to reheat all over again

I think collecting firewood while dressed inadequately delayed the cold -- but only tired out your body even more -- so when it did feel the cold, it came fast and furious?

When you arrived at destination, I wonder if you could have avoided the shivering by:

1. changing out your wool shirt -- or at least add a heavier insulation (if you had one)
2. snack on some trail food, etc. and give your body a rest (or snack and gather firewood if it was getting dark already)

Edited by ben2world on 02/27/2012 12:08:44 MST.

Steven Hanlon
(asciibaron) - F

Locale: Mid Atlantic
gear list on 02/27/2012 12:19:57 MST Print View

here is exactly what i was wearing:

BPL headsweats beanie cap
smartwool merino ss med weight shirt (worn all day)
smartwool merino ls med weight shirt (worn all day)
rei polyester ls shirt
rei primaloft vest
marmot precip jacket with hood

rei all season polartec gloves

rei sahara pants
exoffico boxer briefs

smartwool ankle high socks

oboz yellowstone II boots

i will add that i have dropped 15 pounds in the past 2.5 months and being cold like this is a recent experience.

Edited by asciibaron on 02/27/2012 12:21:01 MST.

John S.
(jshann) - F
Re: Re: i was cold... on 02/27/2012 12:47:00 MST Print View

Yes, the getting cold quickly could be due to "flash off" of even mild sweating that you are not aware of or not feeling sweaty. Ryan Jordan has a good article on thermoregulation.

http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/00184

Edited by jshann on 02/27/2012 12:51:22 MST.

Hobbes W
(Hobbesatronic) - F

Locale: SoCal
Re: Too little insulation. on 02/27/2012 12:48:06 MST Print View

"Take a look at Richard Nisley's article:
http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/forums/thread_display.html?forum_thread_id=9378"

That article has got to be one of the greatest posts evah. It really laid out the basic scientific principles of matching clo to activity. After (re)reading it many times, it finally struck home that we are essentially only doing three things:
1. hiking
2. sitting
3. sleeping

Each require their own clo configuration, ranging from least to most. Add in temp(s), rain, wind & dew point and the problem becomes one of mixing & matching for all possible combinations.

That's why you need limited clo while moving, but a lot of loft while sitting, and even more when sleeping. Hence, the classic (progressive) combo of capilene, polartec, windshirt, shell, vest/parka, bag/quilt and bivy/tarp/tent.

Edited by Hobbesatronic on 02/27/2012 12:56:19 MST.

Randy Martin
(randalmartin) - F

Locale: Colorado
Re: gear list on 02/27/2012 12:55:48 MST Print View

Sounds just like a lot of thin layers and not much insulation. Agree with Walter. You were simply under insulated while stopped and not moving. You should have a parka that you can put on over all other layers. You don't want to be changing out layers in those conditions when windy and stopping/starting. The other benefit is if some of your layers are a little damp, having a parka that breathes can help your body heat push that moisture out and dry you out quicker. Something like the GoLite Bitterroot which uses Pertex Quantum shell fabric.

http://www.golite.com/Ms-Bitterroot-850-Fill-Down-Jacket-P46646.aspx

j lan
(justaddfuel) - F

Locale: MN
Re: i was cold... on 02/27/2012 14:25:39 MST Print View

To me it sounds like dehydration.

Mary D
(hikinggranny) - MLife

Locale: Gateway to Columbia River Gorge
i was cold... on 02/27/2012 16:24:23 MST Print View

While I certainly don't want to underestimate the importance of adequate hydration--just as important to prevent hypothermia as to prevent hyperthermia--this case appears to be primarily insufficient insulation for sitting around camp.

It is all too easy not to drink sufficient liquids in cold weather, though!

Jim W.
(jimqpublic) - MLife

Locale: So-Cal
i was cold... (so drink something hot and go to bed) on 02/27/2012 16:42:36 MST Print View

It sounds like a lot of sitting around underdressed in cold windy conditions. My SOP in winter is to start heating water for instant soup as soon as we set up camp. I've never used an AT Shelter- but it sounds colder than a tent if one side is open. If you're cold, put on more clothes, drink hot beverages, eat food, and get in the sleeping bag. Either that or practice your dance steps.

I usually consume at least a liter of hot soup, cocoa, and/or tea between arriving in camp and bedtime. It's pleasant, warming, and beats back dehydration.

Stephan Doyle
(StephanCal)
Re: i was cold... on 02/27/2012 16:47:25 MST Print View

While dehydration and lack of food may have played a factor, with only a vest you're going to be COLD at those temperatures. Especially if you aren't totally dry.

Piper S.
(sbhikes) - F

Locale: Santa Barbara (Name: Diane)
Re: i was cold... on 02/27/2012 18:59:55 MST Print View

Soup and tea. Keep it coming. Go to bed at 6:30 after a big fat bomb of a meal. And shelters are never as warm as you hope they are.

Paul McLaughlin
(paul) - MLife
Re: i was cold... on 02/27/2012 21:12:24 MST Print View

Anytime you have been working hard, when you stop you will cool off pretty quickly. But more than that, I find that my metabolism goes below the usual baseline. By that I mean that if I wear what I would normally need in terms of insulation to keep warm at a given temperature just sitting around, I'll need more than that for a while if I am recovering from exertion. And the effect is even worse If I haven't been eating enough.
So, if this is your experience you may need to up your insulation somewhat to handle it. How much experience do you have with sitting still in these temperatures with this combination of clothing? Finding out what your individual clothing needs are is a trail and error process, and while certain rules apply - like keeping your head, hands and feet well insulated, keeping your insulation dry and so on - no one can tell you which precise combination of clothing will keep you warm in what conditions, due to personal variations. You have to find it out for yourself.

I find that It's a fine line to walk when adding insulation after exertion -it's easy to put it on too slow or too fast. Too slow and I experience what you did. Too fast and I get sweaty and that starts a see-saw of hot and cold.

eric chan
(bearbreeder) - F
3 things on 02/27/2012 22:15:02 MST Print View

1. insufficient insulation ... i personally like to bring more insulation than needed for camp/belays ... with UL gear weight aint a huge issue IMO these days ... id want something with 4+oz of 800+ down fill for 30F minimum, or synth equivalent ... put it on right away anytime you stop for more than 5 min ... preserve that body heat

2. insufficient food ... im not quite sure of yr menu, but packing some cheese or sausages (something with fat) will warm you up pretty well ... freeze dried aint the best IMO for keeping warm ... it aint UL, but bring some fatty foods

3. weight drop ... once you lose a decent amount of fat, youll require more insulation ... i noticed this last year when i dropped ~15 lbs

solution ... bigger poofay and fatty foods ...

wander lust
(sol)
synth equivalent on 02/27/2012 22:38:13 MST Print View

what would be the synth equivalent for you?

100g/sqm synthetic fill or more?

I suppose everything lighter that the 100g fill might be to cold, right?

eric chan
(bearbreeder) - F
100+ gm on 02/27/2012 22:46:55 MST Print View

at minimum ...

what i will do and in fact what i used for climbing today was use a down vest under a synth puffy for belays around freezing

itll solve the moisture issues ... and you can use the synth puffy for moving slow or quick stops, only exposing yr down puffy in camp ... and is likely a tad lighter than a pure synth puffy for the same insulative value

using my 50$ EB FA downlight vest and 19$ old navy synth poofay right now ...

Edited by bearbreeder on 02/27/2012 22:48:39 MST.