I've been using these Ti stakes. 1/8th inch diameter. 6 inch long. Hook end.

These are marginally acceptable

They bend too easy in hard ground

The hook end rotates around sometimes and then the guyline slips off. The smaller diameter (or circumference) of the stake has less friction against the ground so it rotates easier

With the hook end, pounding it into the ground doesn't work so good, rather than the force going down, it sort of goes sideways with a "spring" action

I like the weight though, 0.25 ounce

And with proper skill, they work

I wish someone made a Ti stake that was 3/16th inch diameter - twice as heavy, twice as strong. Maybe 5/32 inch would be good - 50% heavier and stronger.

And it should have a head like a nail, then it won't rotate around and have the guyline slip off

I wonder if anyone makes such a thing?

I have these Vargo titanium nail stakes. They are not at all fragile, I have pounded them hard with a rock into very rocky ground and have not had a failure.

http://www.vargooutdoors.com/Titanium-Nail-Peg-%286-inches%29

Hi Jerry

> The hook end rotates around sometimes and then the guyline slips off.
I have never had that problem myself with stock Ti wires. Have you tried putting them in at a bit more of an angle? I always try to get the stake at right angles to the guy rope.

Cheers

I am a happy user of Lawson Kline's 7" Ti stakes. A while back he had some of the Ti-Eye stakes that helped solve the problem with the rotating head on the shepherd hook stakes. Unfortunately though I do not believe that he makes these anymore. I also use some of his shepherd hook stakes and I have not had any problem with these spinning. I usually mix and match the 2 types though.

Hal, thanks, I'll look at those

Roger, yes, that's the trick, put them at an angle. There was some article that mentioned that, maybe yours? In rocky soil it's sometimes hard to get at the right angle. You have to search around for a path into the ground that avoids rocks.

Chad, that would help to have the hook bend around the other direction first, then wrap around the other. That's fixing the problem I've encountered. I've kind of done that to my stakes. But, then it's more springy when you pound it in and more likely to start bending.

This type works :


They were sold on E Bay sometime ago. 6" about 5g (a bit thicker than the Vango)
And yes, pegs are meant to be set pointing at about 45 degrre away from the tent...
Franco
Ignore the paint work

Hi Jerry

Yeah, if there are lots of rocks around it gets more difficult - until you grab a couple of those rocks and dump them on top of the stake. I do. :-)

Cheers

If you're going to increase the diameter you should consider changing to aluminum. they'll be stronger and just as lightweight

http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/tent_stakes.html

Thanks for the link, Ken. Hmmm...doesn't go into what the best angle is or cover my 2 issues of rotating stake and how a nail is easier to pound in than a Shepard Hook which is springy. But some good info there none the less. I wonder why nail stakes hold less well than shepard hook stakes in Will's test...

Roger, I often put rocks on my stakes, I agree, that really helps. Sometimes I'll just barely get a stake in the ground or even lay the stake sideways on top of the ground and put a big rock on it.

Nathan - interetsing point. Yeah, I just measured some aluminum stakes and you're right. 1/4 inch diameter aluminum which has 4x the volume only weighs twice as much as 1/8 inch Ti.

So the only reason to use Ti stakes is because Ti is stronger so you only need the smaller 1/8th inch diameter, but then you have the problem there's less surface area so there's less friction against soil so it doesn't hold as well.

And the resistance to bending is proportional to the diameter squared, so there's a lot working against Ti stakes.

I will try bending the shepard hook over more, and I think it will be more resistant to rotating around and having the guyline slip off, and it will be less springy when it's pounded in.

Nathan - interetsing point. Yeah, I just measured
some aluminum stakes and you're right. 1/4 inch
diameter aluminum which has 4x the volume only weighs
twice as much as 1/8 inch Ti.

So the only reason to use Ti stakes is because Ti is
stronger so you only need the smaller 1/8th inch
diameter, but then you have the problem there's less
surface area so there's less friction against soil so
it doesn't hold as well.

And the resistance to bending is proportional to the
diameter squared, so there's a lot working against Ti
stakes.

There are some upsides to titanium though. You'll probably see a higher yield strength (alloy and temper dependent) and maybe better fatigue resistance. The smaller diameter, while giving less surface area for soil contact and anti-rotation or pull-out, does allow easier penetration into harder soils. So it's a matter of picking the right tool for the job. Titanium is less succeptible to corrosion as well.

As for resistance to bending, you can observe even better weight vs. strength results by getting away from the round shape, or at least getting away from the solid round cross section.

Hi Jerry

> So the only reason to use Ti stakes is because Ti is stronger so you only need the smaller
> 1/8th inch diameter, but then you have the problem there's less surface area so there's
> less friction against soil so it doesn't hold as well.

Funny thing is, the only places where my Ti wires don't work are in snow and sand. Yeah, they are thin, but sunk well into the souil they seem to meet a lot of roots etc,.

cheers

Often we don't have a choice of camping on "natural soil;" rather, we are restricted to rock-hard tent sites that have been packed over decades. I've been at a few sites where I'd wager the ground was harder than frozen soil.

I can't imagine ti wires working there.

I do sometimes have problems with the Ti wire stakes in very soft/moist soil. Sometimes I wish I had the longer ones since they hold better but I'm not buying any more.

I wonder if one were to maybe use a saw to create dirt trapping groves if it would grip better. Or maybe it would just eat up the saw teeth.

I also wonder, what if there were a titanium corkscrew type stake? Could it be screwed into the ground and hold really well? Hmmmmmmm, no one steal that idea if it isn't already made :)

EDIT:
Actually check this out http://sticksblog.com/2011/01/13/ti-eye-corkscrew-titanium-stakes-by-mountainfitter-com/
That's a post by Chad on his blog. Apparently mountainfitter.com at one point had them. It seems mountainfitter has changed its name to lawson equipment but I no longer see the corkscrew stakes on the website.

Edited by pdcolelli42 on 02/27/2012 16:29:38 MST.

I have used the ti-wire stakes on solid rock, but only as something to tie to wedged under two or more large rocks. I wasn't actually using them as stakes, but no stakes would work in that case and the ti stakes worked as good as anything.

I do find that I often have to supplement the ti stakes by usually setting a rock on top, but they do work good in rocky ground or soil with lots of roots.

Yes, I think Lawson had problem manufacturing the coil stakes and had to quit selling them:-(
Great idea though.

The problem I often see is rocks

I can't find a place where the stake will go down 6 inches before hitting a rock

I keep moving around to a different place. Sometimes if I go at a different angle. Sometimes I can find a few large rocks for those stakes I can't get all the way into the ground.

Hmmmmm, I think if heated to the point of glowing and shaped then let cool they would maintain that shape pretty well.

I once had my ti-tri in the center of a gigantic fire and it completely glowed orange hot and when I pulled it out it was stuck in the all bent/mashed up state once cooled. I stoked the fire back up and tried to lay it inside the fire as flat as possible and that worked to get it out of the bent up shape. Then I formed the cone with it and made a fire inside and it is back to holding the cone shape again.

I don't like the thin hooks (Ti or whatever) for the reasons stated by the OP. I don't see a reason for the hook end, it makes pounding down nearly useless and any downward force less effective and I see no use for the hook itself. A notch works fine for holding the line, better yet a thicker head area like the Ti nails pictured above as this does not create a weak spot.

The one other thing I hate about the thin hooks is the also mentioned problem about rotating and letting the line free. It happens in too many kinds soils. I've used them extensively, I know about the right angle stuff, it doesn't help enough, I know about the securing with rocks, it helps but I don't like moving rocks around. These stakes seriously need a way to avoid that rotation: wings near the head or a longer hook so the hook end is easily inserted in the ground too. It wouldn't make them much heavier and they'd be much more functional, but I don't know of any lightweight stakes like that.

I still use the thin hooks for secondary lines because of the weight but for the main lines I use thicker nails and/or Y-section ones.

The reason so many people use them is just because they're lighter yet than the other types of stakes. Yes they have drawbacks but every UL gear does. It's the nature of the gear and it requires more care in use to save that weight.

The method for eliminating the rotating of the stake is to push it all they way down to ground level and if possible even push the hook end down into the soil slightly. Also mentioned the placing of a nice large rock atop the stake will give it some extra bite to prevent it from pulling out entirely.

For some people that may be an annoyance, but again it's the price you pay for most UL gear. Compromise.

Edited by pdcolelli42 on 02/28/2012 06:02:13 MST.