Hobbes, thanks for the tips. I might see if I can find some neoprene.

You make a good point about intended use and durability. After making a couple of packs from cheaper fabric, I have found a couple of people who want a home made pack to use. This was mainly because, as you keep building new versions of things, they just build up in the house. So I thought this would be a good way to get some experience and not end up with heaps of gear I don't use.

Well, bigger heaps anyway.

So these next 2 packs (that these 2 sets of straps will be used in) are for other people. Because of that I want to make them fairly sturdy. I'm happy that both of these sets have come out sturdy, and won't be what fails first. I think they'll be used mainly for cycling.

At the risk of hijacking this thread, should we be asking a more fundamental question of whether shoulder straps need padding at all. Are we just aping the norm in heavy weight backpacks by including a thick layer of foam?

My own view is that for the weights normally carried (< 9kg, 20lb) it is most probably unnecessary as long as we use materials that are sufficiently conformable to the shoulders while being sufficiently inflexible to spread the load over the full width of the shoulder strap. The straps I have made use Thru-Hiker 3D mesh with an uncoated 500 denier Cordura as a top layer. A 1" grosgrain tape provides the normal attachment for the buckle, sternum strap etc. This so far seems to provide good comfort. This combination also breathes quite well and may alleviate a little of the sweaty pack strap phenomenon.

"The straps I have made use Thru-Hiker 3D mesh with an uncoated 500 denier Cordura as a top layer. A 1" grosgrain tape provides the normal attachment for the buckle, sternum strap etc."

Err that's almost exactly the same as the second ones I posted this morning. I used a nylon laminate instead of cordura though. It's not much of a hijack as it's exactly what was discussed on the first page ;)

Alright, you got a great thread going on. :)

Well I forgot to tell you what I'd really want.

This is how my last pack straps turned out.


I used 6mm 3D mesh from extremtextil. Not sure if I'd go the turn inside out way, btw, why have 3d mesh if it can't breath? If for stability, then I'd say EVA foam is better, easier. I got one surprise, the foam is made up of some transparent fibers which mess a bit when cutting the mesh and actually poke through the edge binding later on. I used the same kind of prebent edgebinding as you, but I think it's a bit too thin for backpacking applications.

On the guide. My machine has a built in rod which I sometimes use. I haven't tried the extremtextil one, but they have delivered good quality stuff in the past. Although, sail rites model seems to be the real deal. Tip, they have lots of great videos. Only downside is you want an industrial machine when done watching.

The previous pack is still in use. Usually ditch the hipbelt as the load is so low, also made permanent shoulder straps from sturdy silnylon turned inside out with eva. Have used it successfully on solo summer trips. :)

As I said I finished up my second pack a while ago. Very happy with it, big enough for Finnish winter trips or longer voyages. Might have to do a write up at some point.

"At the risk of hijacking this thread, should we be asking a more fundamental question of whether shoulder straps need padding at all."

I think you're onto something.

My last straps were made from 1/8th inch foam which is close to no foam.

Maybe this is a carry over from when packs weighed 50 pounds. Then you maybe needed thick foam.

"I got one surprise, the foam is made up of some transparent fibers which mess a bit when cutting the mesh and actually poke through the edge binding later on"

Yeah I have some of the same stuff. So much hoovering and sweeping once I was done!

"Why have 3d mesh if it can't breath?"

Very good question. I should have used something more breathable for the outer. I guess I could add some holes. Hmmm. Maybe heat up a dremel type tool with a flame and press it on the fabric to cut out + seal a neat hole?

So on your straps did you just sew some binding straight to some 3D mesh? Is there an outer layer other than the webbing?

I'll have to have a look at those videos when I'm at home.

"(pads might be) unnecessary as long as we use materials that are sufficiently conformable to the shoulders while being sufficiently inflexible"

Mark brings up a good point; in fact, with my loads typically under 15lbs, I'm probably a prime candidate for padless straps. But a funny think happened on the way to the Forum, so let me share why I think pads are still a great feature:

I used to attach the top of my straps to my pack with belt (along with some backing). On one occasion, I reasoned that I could simply sew the 1.9 sleeve to the 1.9 pack, and skip the belt on the top. After I penciled it out, I realized all I had to do was add an extra 2" or so to the sleeve and I'd be good to go.

OK, so here's what happened: after I sewed the sleeves to the pack and placed my folded sleeping pad inside along with other items, I jimmied and jammed my (3/8" neoprene) pads - I hadn't yet secured them with a cross stitch - up to the seams so tight they almost stuck out perpendicular to the pack before finally yielding to gravity and sort of hung down.

Why is this important? Because once I finished the pad buckles and got the pack on, I realized I had created a very rigid strap system. I got excited and quickly finished my hip belts using the same exact method. (Of course, once buckled up, both padding & fabric easily bend & conform.)

Well, you can guess what this little baby felt like - heaven! No stays, no compression straps (my pack is carefully measured so the bear can fits snug), yet there it was, barely any sway in a completely frameless pack weighing under 8oz.

So, yeah, in my particular case, the addition of a few ounces of padding actually turned out to be a key part of the frameless aspect, rather than just to offset weight on my shoulders & hips.

Edited by Hobbesatronic on 02/14/2012 08:36:24 MST.

Jerry, would you mind saying how yours were constructed then?

Just to clarify mine were constructed as follows.

Strap version 1: Cordura, 5mm foam, Silnylon, webbing (+ edge binding)
Strap version 2: 3d mesh, Laminated Nylon, webbing


Neither have thick foam. I think version 2 is actually thicker as the foam in version 1 was so thin.

I agree straps doesn't necessarily need padding for load support/cushioning. But they get somewhat hard to handle and can deform, twisting and say for example when tightening the chest strap - if not very well made to fit ones body without the need for chest strap at all. Note one can punch holes in foam, as forces are very small in the centre of the object.

I also think that the main reason for the foam is structure, not padding. A light fabric strap 3" wide will roll up and thus not spread the weight over a large enough area for comfort. I use 1/4" EVA and I punch holes in it in hopes of having some breathability (I also use uncoated fabric). My guess is that the 1/4" foam is the lightest thing that will supply the structure to maintain the width and thus spread the load comfortably. These shoulder straps have been comfortable for me up to around 30 lb loads.
Now if you are going SUL and your total pack weight is like 8 lbs, why not just use 1" grosgrain and be done? No weight, no need to spread it out.

Yes the foam structure makes sense. Next time I use foam I'll punch some neat holes in it to lighten it and make it a bit more breathable.

In the meantime, I finished the second set of straps, the ones with mesh and nylon (no foam).





These aren't for a SUL pack Paul so are probably a bit overbuilt. Quite happy with how they turned out though, they are a far cry from the first ones I made here

Sam,

Those straps are quite a bit of alright! ;-)

Party On,

Newton

Sam,

Those straps are sweeeeet. I made my prototypes last week and your straps put mine to shame. I noticed you top stitched the perimeter. Is this a final step after everything is done to add strength? I had an issue with a side of the strap blowing out and I think this would help.

Edited by johncooper on 02/16/2012 11:49:08 MST.

I don't have any problems making straps exactly. My problem is getting them to fit me. It's really hard to fit yourself perfectly for straps. I've tried some of the templates running around with no good results. I'm 5'8" and 220 pounds, and my myog persuit has resulted from the lack of packs that fit properly. I've made three packs for other people in my family. This was ejoyable, and now both my kids,wife etc. have custom fitted shoulder straps for their packs. Great! Now I'm trying on myself and its like trying to give myself a hair cut or something. Has anyone tried using a magic marker on an old teeshirt? Drawing the straps and cutting it out of the t-shirt, does anyone have a "system" for this? I'm getting a little frustrated. Any advice from the super elite ergonomics engineers please chime in.

Sam,

Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery.

Chris Zimmer's suggestion and the posts on this thread got me to try an experiment.



I decided to try a set of straps with VX21 XPAC material, 4mm foam mesh and no foam "padding" after seeing how well yours turned out.



They were sewn together wrong side out, turned right side out, top stitched around the edges and then had the Quest Outfitters #2029 lightweight webbing & ladder locks bar tacked into place. There are parallel bar tacks above the ladder locks and bar tacks every three inches thereafter.

Party On,

Newton

Edited by Newton on 02/16/2012 20:04:22 MST.

John,

Very nice!! The blue on black looks good. I found my machine was struggling to bar tack the webbing. However if I pressed down the mesh around it before I started to sew it got on a lot better.

"Jerry, would you mind saying how yours were constructed then?"

I think I'm less sophisticated than other suggestions, but

200D Nylon sewn into a sleeve. Insert 1/8th inch foam. Sew a couple seams through foam and 200D along the length. Sew 3/4 inch webbing to ladderlock on one end. Sew 200D to pack on the other end.