No, I do not need relationship advice, but I do need female backpacking advice.

I have been taking my girlfriend on more and more backpacking trips and it has been great. She was not a backpacker in the past so I am slowly increasing our distances. I am slowly finding the fine line between going light and to light for her comfort.

I am looking for advice on a sleeping system for couples or for women specifically. I understand every person has different needs but I want to hear some advice from women. She is definitely a very cold sleeper and requires more pad then I do. Last trip she was using an almost full length ridgerest and still needed more pad. I am thinking about getting an inflatable and putting it over a 1/8 foam pad. I need the 1/8 pad here because there are so many thorns. I have already popped 2 pads here and have permanently switched to solid foam pads. I am also in the process of making a two person rayway quilt. Should be comfortable to about 40deg F.

Most of our trips are weekend trips, but I want to start and extend them. The temp here in Southern Spain never gets below 30 deg F at the altitudes we sleep. I am upgrading to a duomid instead of my spintwin. I think the added protection will make her feel much more comfortable. Not to mention she gets terrible reactions to mosquito bites.

Please comment, any advice and weight saving tips for couples backpacking would be great. I have read Ultralight Backpacking and there is a great section about backpacking as a couple there.

I've done several winter backpacking trips with Little Mitten and she's most happy when:
** I carry most of the weight---her food and tent.
** She likes having her own tent---an Akto---as it gives her solitude and keeps my snoring at bay. Therefore recommend separate shelters.
** Don't scrimp on comfort and warmth, get her an Exped Downmat and be done with it. She will love it. Get one for yourself too. Not the lightest choice but the best for winter or below 30F camping.

https://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/00151.html

You might consider her having a separate sleeping bag, so that she could be warmer. Or perhaps a couples bivy bag, if you want to be under the same quilt (I'm thinking that a 40 degree quilt in an area that gets to 30 degrees is not going to be warm enough, though).

My other thought is that if she's mosquito sensitive, a duomid is not going to keep them all out, unless she has her own mosquito net over her; perhaps something more like a Lightheart Duo, Tarptent SS2, or SMD Haven?

I am both a very cold sleeper and very mosquito reactive, so I can sympathize with her. Other things that can help with warmth when sleeping are a hot water bottle (nalgene-type) and a fleece hat.

My girlfriend and I have some of the same issues. Our shelter takes care of the mosquitos, but she needs much more insulation at night than I do. We share a single double-wide quilt, but use two separate sleeping pads. Hers is a thick, down-filled inflatable pad over a thin CCF, and mine is a Synmat UL7. I attached some kamsnaps to the quilt on her side so she can snap both of our down jackets, her down vest, and her down pants to the top of the quilt on her side. This doubles the volume of down over her. Also, she often wears a balaclava to bed, while I don't.

Every couple has different needs, but for us, sharing as much as possible (shelter, quilt) saves weight and keeps us warmer. The provisions I mentioned above make it possible for us each to be comfortable.

Not a girl, never been one, nor played one on TV. But I met my wife on a backpacking trip and sold sleeping gear to a lot of couples while working at a BP store.

Yes, most women sleep colder and with traditional bags, I'd always recommended she get a 10-20F (5-10C) colder rated bag. You could still zip them together.

I've haven't taken the quilt plunge yet, but there's no reason you can't make a couple's quilt with more insulation on one side.

My second-hand but close-at-hand experience is that many women are slower to warm up the bag than a man does. So if he gets in first and gets it warmed up while she finishes her business, things go better. The really gentlemanly thing to do is to for him to get in first ON HER SIDE for 10 minutes and surrunder the pre-warmed area to her.

I've got some snowcamping / car camping self-infalting pads that are long, wide, thick and came with VELCRO ON THE EDGES so you can join the pads and avoid your hips pushing the pads apart. That could be a retrofit on most pads and with a fabric cement, it would be quick and light to do so.

On the relationship side, allow each other to set some rules. Some I've heard are: Don't tell me how much further it is. Step to the side of trail and let me by before passing gas. (on a bike trip): I don't want to know how fast we were going down that last hill. A hot wash cloth and cup of coffee BEFORE she gets up.

At your temperatures, you probably should upgrade her pad. You don't need a heavy down pad though--anything R4 or higher should be more than sufficient for a cold sleeper (works for my wife at least).

The least expensive, but lightweight option is to work with Bender over at Kooka Bay. Just be aware that he's had some customer service and delivery time issues lately. I'm not sure if the Exped SynMat UL 7 will be warm enough or not, since I don't have any experience with the pad. Look around to see what others who use it have experienced it. There is always the new NeoAir pads (XLite is R3.9 for the women's, XTherm R5.7), but they're expensive.

Thanks for all the advice.

David more insulation on one side is very good idea, I'm also glad your not a girl.

That is a very good article it is a must read for any couples backpacking. Also I disagree with being warming in a single sleeping bag versus two people in a double sleeping bag or quilt. The combined heat of two people can increase warmth substantially. Especially because I sleep like a furnace. This is my personnel experience, everybody is different.

I definitely make sure that I take as much weight as possible and bring lots of warm clothing for her. I want every trip to be as enjoyable for her as possible. She has a great time going which makes me happy as well. I have even started steam baking and bringing tiny water bottles of red wine. Surprise your partner with that one next time.

Keep them coming if anybody has anymore tips.

Edited by zrarnold on 02/06/2012 12:23:26 MST.

Ridgerest is probably not enough. Get her an Exped Synmat UL 7 over the foam.
Fully enclosed tent: more privacy and block the insects.
Sleep together: having a warm male keeping her back warm will make a huge difference.
Good dinner essential!

Cheers

Don't neglect headwear and footwear! Warm booties and a warm hat will help her stay warmer at night.

I agree that sleeping with another body can be very warming; however my personal experience has been that my boyfriend, who gets up several times in the night to water the trees, lets a lot of cold air in each time he gets in or out of the quilt or double-zipped bags, or when he rolls over, so that's why I suggested considering a separate bag for her (that and the fact that it sounded like you prefered lighter cover). But if you're not a frequent, um, waterer then that probably isn't a problem to zip together, or to have a quilt that's thicker on her side (never considered that approach! hmmm).

It sounds like you're being very diligent at figuring out what will make you both happier on the trips, keep up the good work.

1+ on the down mat. Best piece of gear I have ever invested my $$ on. I no longer sleep on 2 pads, sliding all over the place. Exped 7 down did the trick.

My wife and I use a Penguin Bag, from Feathered Friends, along with a groundsheet, specifically designed to work with it. I forget the weight of each, but if I remember right, the bag was close to the real weight, and the groundsheet was significantly under. The groundsheet basically zips into the sleeping bag. It has slots for your sleeping pads. We got the fleece version, which adds a little bit of weight, but is really comfortable. The whole thing is lighter and more more comfortable than zipping to sleeping bags together. Here are the links:
http://www.featheredfriends.com/Picasso/Bags/Product/SemiRectangularHood.html
http://www.featheredfriends.com/Picasso/Bed.Acc/Groundsheets.html

There are a couple things to keep in mind with this setup. One, there is a little tab at the bottom where you want to pull out the sleeping bag to prevent a draft there. You will notice that when you set it up. Second, there is not much to prevent drafts between two people when they sleep. My wife takes her down vest and puts it in between. That works well.

My wife sleeps cold and down to 30-40, an inflatable pad and MB downhugger 2 with some layering does the trick. I second a hat and socks. I try to look away when she squirrels away an extra layer or two.

>"Also I disagree with being warmer in a single sleeping bag versus two people in a double sleeping bag or quilt."

Zachery: I think the big variable is how tight the sleeping bag / quilt fits around your necks. I put out a lot of heat and my wife notices my absence from home (at least thermodynamically) on that basis. But while camping below about 40F the exchange of cold from a poor seal starts to dominate.

On the other hand, there's the good advice about how to warm hypothermia victims: toss them naked into a sleeping bag with a normal-temp person (I've been the warmer once). But in that scenerio, it's a job - the healthy person maximizes contact and DOESN'T MOVE. Normally, as a couple, we each toss and turn and aren't totally snuggled and motionless once the intial chill passes. But if both of you sleep very close and very soundly, than doubling up to colder temps probably works well.

I wonder about having an additional "flange"? "flap"? on a couple quilt/bag: and extension that would fill the gap beween your necks. Because that's a huge air gap compared to how I sleep in a solo bag.

Rereading my message, I'm thinking if I go to a quilt, I want fabric that drapes REALLY well to minimize air gaps/movement, especially for a doubles bag. I'd give up ounces of weight to have a very body-conforming inner fabric.

A model I have found helpful for myself and advising others is that when your body is trying to conserve heat, blood flow turns around in the middle of the upper arm and the middle of the thigh ESPECIALLY IN WOMEN? How many of us can vouch or have heard about cold feet and cold hands more in women than in men?

My own theory about that is that women are neccesary for the next generation and may be set up more towards individual survival. Whereas if 6 guys go out on a mammoth hunt but only 5 come back, the tribe is fed AND has just as many babies the next year.

Anyway, until her whole body is warm enough, her hands and feet aren't warm. And until her feet are warm, ain't nobody happy. Good socks help. Cutting any of her heat loss helps. And don't rule out those little 8-hour disposable chemical foot/handwarmers - is an ounce of weight worth a night's sleep? I'd say yes.

"blood flow turns around in the middle of the upper arm and the middle of the thigh"

I'm not sure that is what you meant. The blood flow does not reverse.

When you get cold, your arterial blood flow is constricted. It seems like the warm blood has stopped partway on your arm or leg, so your extremities feel frozen.

--B.G.--

Thanks for all the good advice so far. I will definitely bring another inflatable mat out next time. That just means I may have to bring one out for myself as well. I think the difference between pad thickness could be a pain. The quilt I'm sewing is a rayway quilt kit. They have a piece of fabric that hangs around the outside of the quilt to help seal any draft. Plus they are sewn on the large side so you can easily bundle up in it. Last trip she was comfortable in a 30 deg bag with my DAS parka and matching insulated pants. But the temp was only about 30 degrees. I know now that the 40 degreeish quilt probably will not be warm enough but it will be perfect for 3 season and summer trips. The penguin looks really really nice. Some other brands make similar styles as well. Our "winter" here is almost over anyways. So I think I will wait and see how much more interest she shows this summer. If we can start doing longer trips then the investment will be well worth it. Otherwise the $400.00 would be better spent elsewhere. Like some sick new climbing gear for myself. Call me selfish.

I have a big agnes insulated air core I used to use for mountaineering trips. I'm going to put that on top of a thin 1/8 pad or maybe even just use a heat reflector for a car windshield (lighter and cheaper). The insulated air core should be enough R value, for sure. The pad underneath is just protecting it from the nasty thorns here. I am definitely going to buy some down booties or make some synthetic ones. I have needed a pair as well because my feet do get cold when mountaineering.

Thanks again. Backpacking with someone you love is a great experience. It really forces you to talk. When you almost get attacked by a bull at 2am it really forces you to work together and to help change each others underwear after.

>""blood flow turns around in the middle of the upper arm and the middle of the thigh"

I'm not sure that is what you meant. The blood flow does not reverse."

Sorry. A sloppy way of saying most of the blood flow doesn't get past your upper arm nor thigh. If you tracked most of the blood flow, it would only get that far before returning in a vein.

Just an update on the couples gear front. I was at Feathered Friends yesterday, and I saw a very nice couples sleeping bag. It has not been officially released. I think they are waiting for a Backpacker review, or something like that before they make it official. However, it was there, and it looked good. So, if you you are considering a bag made for two people, you might wait until this is officially released.