Listening isn't a strong suit for you is it?

YOU'RE DOING IT WRONG.

"Listening isn't a strong suit for you is it?

YOU'RE DOING IT WRONG."

Jake,

Try the ignore function it is like ear plugs for a forum.


I'm going to add Nick G. when I have the time.

Nick :
When backpacking most of us are already at a calorie deficiency, burning more calories than we take in. Why would we want to increase the caloric burn rate? So poles are a good thing to use before hiking if one needs to improve their overall fitness.

Seems like there is a lot of marketing hype from the manufacturers, but not a lot of scientific study.

I am about to take off for a hike but just to ease my mind I will spell it out :
Nick you are a cretin.

Franco

"Nick you are a cretin."

All I am asking is for someone provide real world, measurable validation that trekking poles are an advantage to efficient walking.

You can make personal attacks, which don't phase me, but where is the data to support the claims?

"If trekking poles did nothing, then Andrew Skurka would not have used them."

Yowzer...that is a big statement. WWASD?

I happen to agree with Nick. In my VERY limited experience (you can take what I say with a gigantic grain of salt) trekking poles add energy expenditure. I don't believe they take any pressure off your joints, I just don't think the small amount of temporary down force you put on them does much if anything to offset your body weight.

I think they do add stability and balance, especially on downhills and if you have issues with twisting ankles, knees, slipping, stability they can help.

I carry poles, LT4's. I use different techniques depending on terrain. Sometimes or some places I think they slow me down and sometimes I think they speed me up. But the real reason I carry them is because when I use poles I fall down a lot less. My vision sucks and poles allow me to pay more attention to what is around me rather than what is underfoot. Poles allow me to test things like footing and grade without thinking about it. Kind of like a blind person barreling down the trail with a white cane in each hand.

Kaleb,
Thanks for that info.
He has some good gear lists.

http://andrewskurka.com/how-to/gear-lists-past-trips/
http://andrewskurka.com/

"All I am asking is for someone provide real world, measurable validation that trekking poles are an advantage to efficient walking. "


If you were proficient at using poles as stabilizers and not as propulsion then you would see that it's not a disadvantage on trails where your balance could be compromised. And extremely helpful on steep downhills

watch this guy at :54 and 1:54.. poles aren't slowing him down..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bRCiAvdyBIQ&feature=related


And they don't slow me down especially when i'm on an unbalanced trail (the place i actually use them)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4jOsr9uUlPU

"I don't believe they take any pressure off your joints

Ty, They take A LOT of pressure off of your joints while going DOWNHILL. I've never heard anyone say they take pressure off your joints on flat ground.

look at the trails i have posted in this thread. one was basically a stream with rock hopping the entire way. one was a scree slope with loose rock and sand the entire way down (think ice chunk granular skiing) the other was a slippery staircase.

except for weighting them while going down hill if you are using almost any energy at all with poles then i believe you are doing it wrong.

Only one study and I haven't examined it closely to see if the design and sample size was on the up and up, but interesting data nonetheless.

http://journals.lww.com/acsm-msse/Abstract/2000/12000/Muscular_and_metabolic_costs_of_uphill.20.aspx

"Purpose: The purpose of the present study was to compare pole and no-pole conditions during uphill backpacking, which was simulated on an inclined treadmill with a moderately heavy (22.4 kg, 30% body mass) backpack.

Methods: Physiological measurements of oxygen consumption, heart rate, and RPE were taken during 1 h of backpacking in each condition, along with joint kinematic and electromyographic comparisons from data collected during a third test session.

Results: The results showed that although imposing no metabolic consequence, pole use elicited a longer stride length (1.27 vs 1.19 m), kinematics that were more similar to those of unloaded walking, and reduced activity in several lower extremity muscles. Although pole use evoked a greater heart rate (113.5 vs 107 bpm), subjects were backpacking more comfortably as indicated by their ratings of perceived exertion (10.8 vs 11.6). The increased cardiovascular demand was likely to support the greater muscular activity in the upper extremity, as was observed in triceps brachii.

Conclusion: By redistributing some of the backpack effort, pole use alleviated some stress from the lower extremities and allowed a partial reversal of typical load-bearing strategies"

"just don't think the small amount of temporary down force you put on them does much if anything to offset your body weight."


Tyler,
The force is not always straight down nor is it the same for all terrains.
Flat - Tips pointing back - force back to propel forward(see my post to Dan)
Up hills - Tips pointing down - force straight down to help up
Down hill - Tips pointing forward, neutral force - to soften impact & stability

I can understand the your weight quandary. The longer the distance and greater the weight the more the benefits of the poles become apparent.

Edited by dextersp1 on 02/08/2012 14:27:48 MST.

Wow, crazy thread.

It all comes down to whether a person likes poles and finds some advantage to using them, or not.

It's no different than asking whether you like pepperoni on your pizza.

Even if every scientific study concluded that using poles were of no substantial help, there will still be people who believe they DO benefit them personally, and that's ok.

If I believe that I'm more stable and agile while using poles, then that power of mind alone is worth a lot.

Truth be told, I never gave a thought to whether or not other hikers used poles. I like pepperoni...

"
I can understand the your weight quandary. The longer the distance and greater the weight the more the benefits of the poles become apparent."

i weight 120lbs and use poles on downhills even with a <5lb day pack. my knees do not like downhills. i've bashed them to hell in my 31years and they do not appreciate it.

When I was 16 I did the Pemi loop in NH with my family and i jumped from rock stair to rock stair down 2000' in .5mi with a 30lb pack... i can't do that anymore.

"I don't believe they take any pressure off your joints, I just don't think the small amount of temporary down force you put on them does much if anything to offset your body weight."

Well, I'm totally new here but at the risk of sounding stupid I'll chime in...

How can you say the don't take any pressure off your joints? Any weight transferred to the pole is weight removed from your legs right? I've put nearly my entire weight on my LT4s a few times to prevent falling and what not so does that mean that that weight is on the pole tips and my feet?

Maybe trekking poles aren't for everyone, but when I'm going down hill I NEED them to take some of the weight off my knees otherwise I'd never make it anywhere.

EDIT: "It all comes down to whether a person likes poles and finds some advantage to using them, or not. " THIS!

Edited by pdcolelli42 on 02/08/2012 14:31:56 MST.

"All I am asking is for someone provide real world, measurable validation that trekking poles are an advantage to efficient walking. "

Measurable validation. Someone could claim they can hike faster and better with a 45 lb pack, not fitted, 4 lbs shoes, and a 3 person tent. Then they could add that maybe weak, fat or injured people may benefit from a lighter pack , otherwise it is not necessary to go light.Then ask for measurable validation that going lighter is beneficial at all.
Yes, it is HYOH, but this is causing so much vitriol because , as it has happened before, a poster seems to apply their own experience to the rest of the world. If poles are not needed/ helpful for me, then those benefiting from them must have something wrong with them. Then put the burden of proof on the poor sickly fat folk on top of it.
It may not be the intention, but this is how I think it is coming across and that is why it is generating so much ...anger???

Edited to make it less convoluted, I hope.

Edited by Kat_P on 02/08/2012 15:09:47 MST.

"Wow, crazy thread.

It all comes down to whether a person likes poles and finds some advantage to using them, or not.

It's no different than asking whether you like pepperoni on your pizza.

Even if every scientific study concluded that using poles were of no substantial help, there will still be people who believe they DO benefit them personally, and that's ok.

If I believe that I'm more stable and agile while using poles, then that power of mind alone is worth a lot.

Truth be told, I never gave a thought to whether or not other hikers used poles. I like pepperoni..."

Travis, I agree with you. It could have been as simple as that if no one had said that poles may benefit older, overweight ( " and they would be better off to lose the pounds.....") or people with lingering injuries. Then add the continuos bragging and better than thou tone and a simple issue deteriorates. How can anyone be surprised that it ends up like this?

Kat said: "Yes, it is HYOH, but this is causing so much vitriol because , as it has happened before, a poster seems to apply their own experience to the rest of the world."

I agree Kat. Blanket statements from someone who clearly does not need the equipment are ridiculous.

It's like saying "i only need a 30 degree sleeping bag down to -10" well that's cool but a lot of people would be freezing.


@Nick. I have nothing else to say to you man. Your attitude is pretty close minded and the fact that you've been shown multiple times and ways and still can't wrap your head around it is pretty bad. It's not always about you, you are not that impressive, there is always someone better.

Aristotle would have the logic and reason to see the advantages of four legs.

Travis,
A couple of comments.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
"Wow, crazy thread. "
I didn't expect all this, when I started the thread.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
"It's no different than asking whether you like pepperoni on your pizza."

Some who do not see the benefits of trekking poles admit they do not use them correctly.

So to expand upon your analogy.

There are those who put pizza in their mouth, chew it, and appreciate the flavor and nutrition.

There are those who attempt to shove pizza in their ears and don't understand why people like pizza.

Edited by dextersp1 on 02/08/2012 15:33:32 MST.

Here's what I don't get -- why can't we just disagree without getting angry or engaging in personal or ad hominem et. al. attacks and such? I use trekking poles. I like using trekking poles. I don't need to prove to Nick or Ty Ty or anyone else whether or not they scientifically benefit me, because I don't care whether anyone else agrees with me or not. Likewise, when Nick or anyone else posts in disagreement with my stance, I don't care and I don't take it personally.

Far too many of you are taking this stuff personally. Why? I disagree with people every day! I don't get mad, and neither do they. Why are all these relatively meaningless subjects so darned personally important to y'all? They ain't! Chill already, and stop taking things personally. Disagreement is okay.