I may have misunderstood JR's position but I don't think he is against any and all documentation. I understood him to be against any document who's explicit purpose is to track ones movement (passports). A birth certificate proves your alive. A death certificate proves your dead. A drivers license means you can drive. A Social Security Card means your eligible for certain benefits and pay taxes. I've over simplified but that is the gist of it. If I break the law, those and other records (credit card records, etc.) can be used to track me but that is not the primary purpose of those records. There is purpose and then there is use. The purpose of a baseball bat to to hit a baseball, it's use may be different. The primary purpose of a passport is to document and control ones travels between and within foreign countries.

EDIT: looks like we were typing at the same time JR :).

Edited by ericnoble on 01/25/2007 18:43:55 MST.

Eric Noble - You are absolutely correct. I am unable to really comment on your post without repeating much of it, so I will just say "what he said".

Both paragraphs were spot on.

Edit: looks like we did it again ;) The above post was ment for your second to last post - but I agree completely with what you just said above.

Edited by RavenUL on 01/25/2007 18:47:58 MST.

Wouldn't it be great if I didn't have to shred my junk mail so some butthead has a tougher time getting ahold of my private info.

Wouldn't it be great if we didn't have to worry about some butthead cutting the throat of the Pilot of an airplane I'm flying in because we don't worship the God he wants us to worship.

Wouldn't it be nice if I didn't have to worry about my property taxes increasing yet again this year to provide capital for schools to educate the 2 Million more people who have come to this country illegally, don't pay taxes, and send most of the Money they earn to a different country where it is completely removed from the local, state, and US economy, also causing my income taxes to increase to provide free health care to that same person who doesn't pay taxes? Let's be clear ... this takes away from me and my family to benefit someone who feels they are above the laws of the country they've decided to live in.

Wouldn't it be great if the majority of the accidents that now occur in the southern states weren't hit and run accidents by un-insured drivers, driving up my insurance costs year by year?

Well, we don't have that luxury .... if you have a problem with immigration laws in the US, then there is a great system of government here in this country that allows any tax payer to be heard and have an opportunity to be represented in the changing and creation of laws.

Until then the laws are changed .... the Law is what it is ... I for one am sick and tired of people choosing to come to this country and choosing not to follow the laws, not to respect the people who already live here, of driving up my costs of just trying to live my life, and not just getting away with it, but being supported by US citizens.

If you choose to live in this country you are bound by it's laws, whether you agree with those laws or not. The immigrants we are discussing are here AGAINST THE LAW.

If I break the law I have to pay the fine, do the time, or other penalty ... why don't they?

And if you really want to fix the immigration problem ... you should put it back on the governments that are creating the problem. I've traveled extensivly throughout Central and South America, as well as much of the rest of the world. South of Texas 99% of the wealth is controled by 1% of the people ... until that changes the problem will continue. Put the pressure back on those countries to FIX their human rights and poverty problems instead of taking a percentage of my income to support those same people.

.... fix that problem.

Eric, I adjusted that post to be more PC, but let it be known that a good friend of mine in LE was murdered by one of those 'nice people to the South of our Border'.

I too have met plenty of regular folks Eric, South of the Border, the majority of which had no desire to come North upon my invitation to do so. This was of course before my friend was murdered, not killed, in the line of duty.

Oh, and on the Passport issue; if the govt NOW thinks it needs to institute this measure for 'security purposes' then it should issue a FREE passport to every US taxpayer and those listed as dependants on their TAX RETURN. What I'm saying is stop bleeding the taxpayers before they run dry and decide to say the heck with paying taxes at all.

Edited by Tracker on 01/25/2007 19:18:31 MST.

Gene, I am so sorry to hear about your friend. That is a horrible thing to have to deal with. I've had to deal with death but not like that. I can understand that it would effect you. I wish you well!

That clarifies your position on passports as well. I knew it had to be something logical.

Jay, thanks for the thoughtful debate here, I do see where you're coming from, and no offense taken to any of your comments.

I'm not sure where all of this is headed, so, like Jay, I think it's time for me to respectfully bow out of this debate. I'll keep reading, but I think I've instigated and said WAY MORE than enough.
Whew...carry on folks.

And Gene, while some of your statements are pretty inflamatory, I do appreciate the PM you sent. Everything's ok with me, no offense taken. I am sorry to hear about your loss; the mere fact that violence is part of this discussion is testament to the fact that WE ALL, as citizens and voters, need to work towards an agreeable solution to this.

Edited by xnomanx on 01/25/2007 19:52:29 MST.

JR,

when you replied
"Disliking Australians (wtf is that about?)",

I believe the reference was to the question posed earlier "which provision of REALID did you object to", you replied "Every. Last. One."

"Every. Last. One." obviously includes the last provision listed, giving Aussies easy visas access. So is it fair to say you don't object to "Every" provision of REALID, or you really don't want Aussies to have easy access?

Ah. So thats where that nonsense came from.

If I have not made myself clear - which it is painfully clear that I have not - I object to ANYONE getting preferential OR discriminatory treatment. I believe in fundamental equality. I desperately hope I do not stand alone on this.

Martin Luther King, Jr. spoke of judging people on the content of their characters, not the color of their skin. How have we "progressed" to judging people by the color of their paperwork?

JR,
you a lawyer? You are 1 slipry dude!

No, I am not a lawyer. What exactly are you trying to pin me down with that I keep slipping away from?

jr
just re-read the posts that you replied to (but maybe you did not read well?). first you do not like australian easy visa (you say you object to "every.last.one". then you wtf do. then you flip flop # 3 time and say no special treatment for anyone.

Excuse me? How is saying that everyone should be treated equally - regardless of nationality - in any way a flip flop from the position that I do not think that Australians (or Austrians, or Armenians, or Angolans, or anyone else) should be given preferential treatment? Nor should any of them be treated to discriminatory treatment. What part of equality is not understood?

Edited by RavenUL on 01/26/2007 02:04:15 MST.

The problem Mike, is that NO ID will cure my ills. All that can cure it is a court order-and currently I am spending way too much money on my lawyer for child support that is owed, to pay the lawyer to go to court to have my name stripped from all court documents. I hope in the next year to be able to do this. It will not be cheap either. Currently my fingerprints and notes on the ID theft are on file with the FBI, the state police and the database here in my county. I have both digital and normal prints on file, along with my photos. I have had to present my ID theft paperwork to different people, even the court when handling my child support cases. I have to show I am NOT a criminal.

Ironically the reason my name is connected to the criminal? When I was young I used to carry my SSN card in my purse. My purse was rifled at a party one time in my senior year in HS. She must have taken down the info-and later when arrested for of all things, being a drunken minor, she gave them my name and SSN# as documentation-but the key was she didn't know where I was born, and gave her birthdate and town of birth. She later had run ins with domestic violence (and how did I find this all out? I was applying for a CPL, and got flagged due to the domestic violence convictions!) During the time I found out and when the detectives got done researching the ID theft I couldn't touch any of our guns, and had to make sure my husband had everything, including ammunition locked up, as I was so paranoid. I go shooting often, and couldn't even go to the range with my husband. Once I was cleared, I could again - but I can tell you this: my paperwork is ALWAYS with me. I'd hate to have a cop get scared if they ran my background since I have a CPL and often carry.

As for the Real ID, I was happy to see that Maine is fighting it! http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20070126/pl_nm/usa_idcard_dc_1

Honestly, I finally understand my departed paranoid dad's theories (and yes, he was both a religious zealot and believed that you should never trust the government) When I am out doing the laundry, I often talk to him (his ashes sit next to my mom's ashes there) and I know he'd have loved the whole Real ID crud. He'd be packing up and moving back out MT if he was alive.
I just cannot understand how SO MANY Americans willingly give up their rights without questioning why they need to do it. We need to question why we are being asked to give them up! And to be given real answers.

Edited by sarbar on 01/25/2007 21:23:01 MST.

"As for the Real ID, I was happy to see that Maine is fighting it!"

As is New Hampshire. http://news.com.com/The+Real+ID+rebellion/2010-1028_3-6061578.html

Strong efforts are being made in MT and WY to oppose Real ID as well.

"I just cannot understand how SO MANY Americans willingly give up their rights without questioning why they need to do it. We need to question why we are being asked to give them up! And to be given real answers."

YES!

YAY! I can only hope our governor stands up to it, she has complained a lot about the cost it is forcing on us as a state.
Grass roots could make a big difference here!

I'm definatley glad to see those states fighting it. If only I was able to relocate to one of THEM!!!!!

Tom

Well, I'm not going to argue the political issue but you guys are looking at it all wrong for this forum (General Lightweight Backpacking Discussion in case anyone noticed).

The question is how *heavy* will the new ID or passports be :)

Edited by slacklinejoe on 01/26/2007 09:49:12 MST.

Gene, you sent me a PM. I received it with much appreciation. I responded with a PM but I think you may not have received it. I suspect that the PM feature doesn't work when the target is a guest user. I know it works member to member. If you received my PM please let me know. Your PM deserves a response and I want to be sure you got it.

My son just received his new digital passport. It is the same physical size as my 1999 passport. Side-by-side they felt to be about the same weight. This weekend I will try to get a moment to post weights for each. There is a warning on the back page of the new passport about embedded electronics and that it doesn't tolerate bending or folding.

Always good fun to hear/read people from the USA talk about politics. It has given me a good laugh, thanks to all who have contributed.

I wonder how the people of the USA expect to be welcomed in other countries in about 100 years from now, when the levels of the oceans have rissen and many millions of people, living in cities like New York, have become refugees. No more talking of being "free" than.

When you go from one country to another you need a passport. In every part of the world. Some countries even expect you to have a visa. I wonder if you think that buying a visum to enter a coutry is a violation of your "freedom".

Why isn't there a modderator on this forum btw? I like to be able to speak my mind on these fora but when people start to (wrongly) accusing others i'd like someone to step in and urge people to remain a civilised tone.

Again, thanks for the laughs.

Eins