Passports
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sam sam
(123456789) - F
Re: Re: Re: Passports for travellers on 01/25/2007 07:25:56 MST Print View

Wow, JR RavenUL! are you an anarchist or do not like any government at all? do I have this right?

You do not like the IDs that are difficult to forge.you want fake IDs? you do not like the govenment to work together. you want to give asylum to known terrorist. When caught, you want to let illegals run free. on the streets? no job or support how do they live but by stealing, you want that? you do not like Australians? you do not like adding more legal visas?

Which of the above am I wrong about you?
Sam Sam

Thomas Knighton
(Tomcat1066) - F

Locale: Southwest GA
Passports and National ID on 01/25/2007 09:01:40 MST Print View

Don't you just love it when anyone who disagrees with a law gets labeled an anarchist?

Ben 2 World
(ben2world) - MLife

Locale: So Cal
Re: Passports and National ID on 01/25/2007 10:02:02 MST Print View

I don't know if J R is an anarchist, but the response of not liking any and all ID cards is kind of extreme.

ID cards do not make anyone more free. Why JR has that expectation puzzles me. ID cards give the authority some means of control and tracking. By definition, that means some degree of inconvenience/restriction on every cardholder.

Most people are willing to surrender some degree of freedom in exchange for some degree of security. They may not always trust the authorities, but they recognize that a balance somewhere is necessary.

J R should be reminded that he's ID-ed from Day 1: he's got a birth certificate, no? And he mostly likely has a driver's license. And the day he kicks the bucket, he will get a death certificate. Theoretically, the authorities can dictate that we all carry our birth certificates around... but a wallet size ID or even a passport is just a lot more convenient.

Lastly, J R should realize that Canada, Mexico and some Carribean countries aside, pretty much all the rest of the world REQUIRE that visitors present a passport -- and sometimes a visa in addition. They don't just let anybody in -- any more than we do.

Jay McCombs
(jmccombs) - MLife

Locale: Southwest
Re: Re: Passports for travellers on 01/25/2007 10:14:27 MST Print View

Like you said, nothing personal, just giving you a different perspective.

"...and replace the millions with whom? Without wrecking our economy? Will this make us safer?"

First, there are roughly 7 million unemployed US citizens. Most esitmates put the number of illegals at around 12 million. So now all US citizens have jobs. Money earned by illegals may or may not be taxed so you would see increased government revenues there, you would have fewer people needing government social services due to lower unemployment, you would have 12 million fewer people access the public health care system who don't contribute, minus the number of dollars earned in the US and sent back to their prospective countries that don't contribute to our economy and I think any deficit seen by a drop in the unskilled labor force would be more than compensated for.

"Of course you do...because you CAN. Easily said coming from a position of privilege. If your home country had no jobs, there was no way of making it for yourself and your family, there were no social services, no political/social solutions in sight, and the country you wanted to work in put you on an immigration waiting list that could easily take ten years...Then what? Sit and just watch your family live in destitute poverty?"

First, Mexico has the 12th ranked GDP of world countries. So lets paint a clear picture.

"I'm an educator credentialed in teaching English as a second language and have seen this firsthand. If you couldn't speak English, see how long it would take you to learn the language well enough to pass a fairly intensive test on the U.S. Constitution, our system of government, and basic U.S. history. Most of our English-speaking, native-born citizens couldn't pass this test if it was given on the spot."

Going from english to spanish took me about 4 months before I could navigate daily life w/o a problem. In the job I currently do I regularly encounter people that have been in the states for greater than 10 years that don't speak any English. Its not because English is harder, its because they have no motivation or desire to integrate into our society. I'm surprised that as an ESL teacher this isn't more apparent to you.


"Lazy? I haven't seen many unemployed, native-born Americans rushing trucks and vans in hardware store parking lots or lining up on farms to bust their backs picking berries...I guess unemployment checks, welfare, and food stamps are much easier, huh?"

Haven't been down to your communities day labor center lately have you? The last time I hired day laborers I hired a white guy and a black guy. Not because I asked for them but because they were next in line. And I live in the southwest. That is an N=1 expirament, but the argument that Americans wont do the jobs that illegals will is just not true.

"How about denying health care for the sick & undocumented, young and old alike? Humanitarianism at its finest!

As one of the wealthiest and most utterly privileged countries on Earth, criminalizing the poor and desperate is a shame."

Noble, but unrealistic. The US can't save the world. We can't employ the world. We can't provide healthcare for the entire world (we can barely do it for the population we have now). Do you have any idea what the population of the third world is? The 12 million we took illegaly from Latin America is whizzing in the wind compared to the BILLIONS elsewhere. Shaming yourself for being born in a certain country is the acme of misdirected shaming. Bringing everyone from the thrid world to wealthy countries is not the solution or even realistic. The solution is finding ways to culture the economies of third world countries and finding effective ways to enhance quality of life THERE, such as through public works (water sanitation, basic vacinations, education, etc.). Make the third world better, don't bring the third world to America.

Also, don't be so arrogant as to think that someone living in the third world can't be happy because they don't live the life we do. I have met plenty of happy people in third world countries.

Emotional arguments vs. logical arguments.

Edited by jmccombs on 01/25/2007 10:15:57 MST.

J R
(RavenUL) - F
Re: Re: Re: Passports for travellers on 01/25/2007 12:53:15 MST Print View

Well well!

Anarchist? By whose definition? Mine? Yours? Lysander Spooners? Noam Chomsky's? The New York Times? Are we talking Anarcho-Capitalism? Green Anarchy? Communist-anarchy (oohh, theres a tricky one)? Mutualist? Syndicalist? Philosophical? Collectivist?

Nope - not going to play that game.

I believe that - to coin a phrase - I am not a number. You are not a number. Im am not the property of some government to be tracked like inventory in a warehouse.

How has it become that we no longer see each other as human beings, but rather a danger to life, liberty, or *gasp* the employability of our OWN toilet cleaners and berry pickers if we cannot - on command - produce a piece of paper that says we are who we say we are? With what "authority" does anyone "dictate" to a free man what he must carry? Ah, yes. The counterfeit authority of theft, imprisonment, or death. How noble.

I find it sad, deeply disturbing, and an affront to humanity itself that we have all been conditioned just "remember you've been ID'd since day one" as if that is some reason to just "get over it". No.

I was a member of the US military. I have trained around the world and with members of many of the worlds elite special operations units. England, Israel, Russia, etc. For a while I even worked as a top level trainer for a firm teaching advanced anti and counter-terror techniques to state, federal, and private agencies*. I mention this all only to clear up any confusion you all might have as to with what authority I say the following: Not one speck of identification, not one stamp on your passport, not one wave of a visa, not one "unforgeable" ID (that can still be BOUGHT if you find the right guy at the DMV - corruption. Aint it neat?) makes anyone safer. It enhances security not one iota. It is at BEST a feel good measure. At worst, it is an ever tightening noose that brings us every day one step closer to domination by those in power.

Rather than recoil in horror with a gasp of "That.. that... THAT MAN IS AN ANARCHIST!!!!" and shutting off your minds, why dont you try reexamining why you are so quick to embrace the coercive controls designed quite blatantly to document your comings and goings. Are you a human being, or the property of a state? The concept of "documented" or "undocumented" in regards to a HUMAN BEING is, to me, an utterly repugnant one.


* Before anyone call me a hypocrite, I no longer work in that field, and haven't for about 2 years. I have no further interest in supporting the usurpation of liberty and the dehumanization of my fellow man.

Edited by RavenUL on 01/25/2007 13:47:07 MST.

J R
(RavenUL) - F
Re: Re: Re: Re: Passports for travellers on 01/25/2007 12:57:46 MST Print View

And just for my own edification, and only out of pure, blinding confusion at that, what the _____ is this "you do not like Australians?" about? Seriously, what miscarriage of logic brought that question up?

Richard Scruggs
(JRScruggs) - MLife

Locale: Oregon
Re: Re: Re: Re: Passports for travellers on 01/25/2007 14:13:15 MST Print View

Do you also oppose DNA analysis, fingerprint comparisons, and the use of other physical characteristics to aid in identifying persons who committed crimes, and exculpating persons who are innocent? Or is your issue limited to law enforcement gathering, documenting and preserving any kind of record of those individual features for those purposes?

The former methods seem to require the latter procedures.

And how are passports more intrusive or violative of any personal rights compared to assignment of social security numbers that must be "presented" as needed to assure that certain benefits are only given to those who are entitled to those benefits. Kind of like displaying a passport, but for a different purpose, wouldn't you agree?

Could it be that a logical progression for many arguments against passports would be to urge everyone to sand the skin off of their finger tips to remove prints (and palms too, as well as soles of the feet)? And altering other personal ID features that make our physical appearance unique? Gathering together to burn social security cards in front of Social Security Administration offices all across our nation? And then there's DNA . . . what can be done to protect our DNA from comparisons by those who may try to distinguish one person from the other?

If a means could be found to erase all individuality of appearance so that we all become pretty much anonymous, would we then be more free? And even if that were the result, what's the trade-off?

Movies would get pretty boring. One photograph might even take care of everyone. And all of us would fit into one size for clothing, shoes, packs, and everything else we constantly buy. Hmmm, that might give the term "base weight" much greater significance for comparing one gear list with another. And shopping would be a lot easier.

OK, let the protest begin.

JRS

J R
(RavenUL) - F
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Passports for travellers on 01/25/2007 14:30:40 MST Print View

"OK, let the protest begin."

Oops. You tipped your hand. You made it clear that your looking for a protest.

I offer no solutions.

Thats the thing that scares people.

You sit here and joke(?) about the idea that I would want a world of grey - No names, no faces, no individuality. Hardly. I celebrate human diversity in all of its forms and welcome it with VERY open arms.

That is what I offer.

I refuse to reduce a vibrant living being to a slip of paper, a tattoo on their arm, or a chip under their skin.

What do you want for your fellow man?

Douglas Hus
(Hustler) - F

Locale: Ontario, Canada
Passports on 01/25/2007 14:49:18 MST Print View

My goodness, I see this has become a hot subject here as well.

I originaly posted this topic as just a heads up for international travellers.

Unfortunately I think this subject may have migrated into a larger can of worms.

I also think inlight of the past horrors of terrorism, both locally and internationally, "more" identity documentation looks like the future and not "less".


And now in an attempt to dial things down ......what does a passport weigh anyways?


All the best,
Doug




.

Gene .
(Tracker)

Locale: New England
Re: Re: Re: Re: Passports on 01/25/2007 15:36:19 MST Print View

JR ditto your remarks, and Sarah's...I think as US taxpayers(those of us that are) are in for a REAL screwing this time around.

First, they increased the price of a passport last year, and put the burden upon the average earning taxpayer...not the filthy rich who could care less about a 'passport tax' (which is what this is to live in this Country)in order to travel in and out of this Country.

Too little WAY TOO LATE IMO if it's for 'security reasons' that's BS with a capital B & S. I know the skinny, but won't put it in writing.

It's all about controlling the taxpayers, and getting more revenue in the form of 'passport fees'. That means folks who want to visit friends in Canada, can't without now paying for a new digital passport. Next, after we all shell out the coin for the Passport, the US govt is going to shove a National ID card down our throats as taxpayers for free....I'll wait for the 'Land of the free' card..LOL...

If you're a taxpayer listen to www.michealsavage.com and get ready for the fight of our Constituitional Lives!

Gene .
(Tracker)

Locale: New England
Re: Passports for travellers on 01/25/2007 15:44:36 MST Print View

Brett I got your back whenever you're ready to join us at the Southern Border! Lived and fought right there in Hereford myself out of the 'Black Station'. It was'nt too long ago that I myself was staring done Federales who were carrying US made M-16a's and wearing old US Army fatigues...

Funny how folks always manage to bring the Canadian Border into these issues; when we ALL know the problem is not with our friends to the North, it's the trespassers to the South!

Edited by Tracker on 01/25/2007 19:08:34 MST.

Gene .
(Tracker)

Locale: New England
Re: Re: Passports for travellers on 01/25/2007 15:59:09 MST Print View

Craig, Man, it's not hard to see where you are coming from, you make your money off the illegals!

How about allowing all the millions of teenagers in this Country to get a job, like most of us did when we were young? Huh? Ya' think THAT would reduce gang numbers? Ya think? I DO!

Edited by Tracker on 01/25/2007 16:43:45 MST.

Douglas Frick
(Otter) - MLife

Locale: Wyoming
Re: Passports on 01/25/2007 16:01:33 MST Print View

>what does a passport weigh anyways?


U.S. passport, circa 2000: 0.8 oz.
U.S. Electronic Passport: dunno; I'll find out soon...

Edited by Otter on 01/25/2007 18:14:57 MST.

Craig W.
(xnomanx) - F - M
Re: Re: Re: Passports for travellers on 01/25/2007 16:13:26 MST Print View

"First, there are roughly 7 million unemployed US citizens. Most esitmates put the number of illegals at around 12 million. So now all US citizens have jobs."

Is it really this simple? So give 12 million undocumented workers the boot and those 7 million unemployed Americans just pick up right where they left off? What about the remaining 5 million vacancies in our economy? Don't the 12 million illegal immigrants pay sales tax, buy gas and groceries, etc?

"First, Mexico has the 12th ranked GDP of world countries. So lets paint a clear picture."

Interesting...We should explain that to the 6 year olds selling 10 cent gum in Tijuana and all those risking their lives crossing deserts to get here.

"Going from english to spanish took me about 4 months before I could navigate daily life w/o a problem."

I think this is quite different from you being able to pass a written citzenship test on the Mexican constitution, system of government, and history, all in spanish.

"The solution is finding ways to culture the economies of third world countries and finding effective ways to enhance quality of life THERE, such as through public works (water sanitation, basic vacinations, education, etc.). Make the third world better, don't bring the third world to America."

Thank you for reiterating my overall point: We will not solve this by kicking people out, only to send them back to poor countries where they try to catch the first bus back...Our current approach is nothing but a revolving door that's not doing any long-term good for anyone.

"Also, don't be so arrogant as to think that someone living in the third world can't be happy because they don't live the life we do. I have met plenty of happy people in third world countries."

Sure there are happy people in the Third World...and they're generally not the ones trying to escape to America for a better life.
And arrogance? What about telling a poor person their nation's GDP is 12th highest in the world?

Edited by xnomanx on 01/25/2007 16:15:02 MST.

Thomas Knighton
(Tomcat1066) - F

Locale: Southwest GA
Passports and such on 01/25/2007 16:44:16 MST Print View

I have zero problem with the people who want to come here legally to fill in the void of jobs left when all Americans are working. However, when you illegally cross the border, you become a criminal. I have a serious issue with people crossing the border illegally.

Why should I, a taxpayer, have to shoulder any burden for them? Yes, they buy groceries and gas. However, a large percentage of their earnings are sent back home, rather than being reused within OUR economy. Plus, as I've already mentioned, they broke the law to get here!

They want to come here? Great! Do it legally and I'll welcome you with open arms...LITERALLY! Do it illegally, and I'll welcome you with a call to INS...LITERALLY!

Tom

Jay McCombs
(jmccombs) - MLife

Locale: Southwest
Re: Re: Re: Re: Passports for travellers on 01/25/2007 17:02:36 MST Print View

Craig, let me start by saying I respect your views and am only offering you a different point of view. I'm not asking you to change your mind but simply to consider looking at the issue through a different filter momentarily.

"Is it really this simple? So give 12 million undocumented workers the boot and those 7 million unemployed Americans just pick up right where they left off? What about the remaining 5 million vacancies in our economy? Don't the 12 million illegal immigrants pay sales tax, buy gas and groceries, etc?"

Of course 7 million unemployed Americans instantly filling the void of 12 million illegals wouldn't be simple or reasonable, but then booting 12 million illegals over night, over the course of a year, etc. wouldnt' be simple or reasonable either. The first step would be securing the border to keep the problem from getting worse. The deportation would likely go down over several years, though legislation to make it less apealing to hire illegals would help. We would see a gradual migration of certain populations to areas where these jobs needed to be filled. There would likely be either a rise in the price of certain goods (I've heard economists argue that it would be on the scale of a couple of cents and others argue that it would be on a much larger scale but can't give you any real figures as I know little of economics) or a rise in automation of technologies (such as in harvesting, manufacturing, etc.). I suspect the latter.

"Interesting...We should explain that to the 6 year olds selling 10 cent gum in Tijuana and all those risking their lives crossing deserts to get here."

The purpose in mentioning Mexico's GDP was to illustrate the point that there are 181 other countries more impoverished than the one next door to us. Those are heart breaking scenes & stories, but those aren't scenes unique to Tijuana. There are plenty of children in poverty here in the states and all over the world. While I wish that every kid could grow up with the luxuries I was extended, its just not possible. Even if you brought that kid's family to the US he would still live far bellow the level of comfort you and I do.

"I think this is quite different from you being able to pass a written citzenship test on the Mexican constitution, system of government, and history, all in spanish."

I enrolled in University classes shortly there after and did fine. The point I was making was that I picked the language up quickly because I was making a serrious effort to integrate into the society, which is not the goal of most illegals (at least most of those I encounter in my line of work). How can you argue that immigrants shouldn't be able to communicate in the society they live in? You teach ESL!!

"Thank you for reiterating my overall point: We will not solve this by kicking people out, only to send them back to poor countries where they try to catch the first bus back...Our current approach is nothing but a revolving door that's not doing any long-term good for anyone."

Right which is why you improve border security first, and requiring passports to enter the country is part of that. The point is we aren't doing the world any favors by allowing illegal immigration to continue. You mentioned people crossing the desert, risking their lives to sneak in. What if that wasn't an option? What if you crossed the desert only to find an impassable wall? Fewer people would do it. They would, instead, look at ways to improve their lives in their native country.

"Sure there are happy people in the Third World...and they're generally not the ones trying to escape to America for a better life.
And arrogance? What about telling a poor person their nation's GDP is 12th highest in the world?"

Calling someone arrogant just never goes over as benignly as its intended, so sorry, heh. Emotionally I agree with everything you say, bring everyone to the US where they can live better lives. Logically, based on what I see day to day is that illegal immigration offers meager improvements in quality of life for the immigrants vs the risk taken to get here and puts high levels of stress on this countries wellfare programs, especially health care and education. I think you have an overly optimistic view of the life of illegal's lives once they reach they the states. Being apart from family, friends, and dealing witht he anxiety inherent to life as an illegal immigrant likely creates as many social problems as it cures.

I enjoyed your point of view and appreciate your thoughts. I'm going to respectfully bow out of this conversation as it has headed off course tremendously but will continue reading future posts by all with much enjoyment, regardless the topic! Que te vaya bien :)

Eric Noble
(ericnoble) - MLife

Locale: Colorado Rockies
Re: Re: Passports for travellers on 01/25/2007 17:12:08 MST Print View

Gene, I've enjoyed all your posts in these forums except for this one. I feel you've mischaracterized many of those living south of the US. You seem to be against Passports but for secure borders. I'm not sure how that works.

While this discussion has become chaff, I have, in general, appreciated it. It has caused me to consider more deeply IDs and passports. This is not an argument for or against but I think we take them too lightly. In the absence of nations or governments records of births and deaths would still be kept in holy books as they often were and are. Whatever you consider holy. The Government has made them official (legal) and taken the role of recording them as well. There purpose was largely historical and now also legal. The value is to the individual, the family and out from there. I get presents every year. How cool is that! Records of birth and death are not ID's though they make it possible to get a passport or ID. In the absence of nations or governments Passports are meaningless. There purpose is largely in tracking the movements of people, the value is to the nation or government and finally the individual. They serve a purpose and that purpose should be understood and debated. JR seems to have taken a stand on passports and that stand leads to logical conclusions with regards to immigration. You may argue his stand but his logic seems correct. I hope I haven't mischaracterized your position, JR.

EDIT: I've edited my original response to Gene based on his edit and response below.

Edited by ericnoble on 01/25/2007 19:41:25 MST.

Ben 2 World
(ben2world) - MLife

Locale: So Cal
Hey, J R -- Just Cut Them All Up! on 01/25/2007 18:04:58 MST Print View

Well, J R, if you feel so strongly about this, why don't you shred your birth certificate, driver license, social security card and your veteran's benefit card (or whatever it is called officially)?

You talk a brave talk, but your extreme position is completely at odds with your reality, so all that it reveals is your own naïveté. You already are part of the system.

Edited by ben2world on 01/25/2007 18:06:43 MST.

Mike Barney
(eaglemb) - F

Locale: AZ, the Great Southwest!
Passports and security on 01/25/2007 18:27:37 MST Print View

I've worked on DHS security programs since before it was DHS, and have to tell you that there is way too much chaff and bad information regarding the REALID.

The fact is the REALID act will make it much more difficult for someone to steal your identity, or create a fake one. PERIOD!

Is there anyone reading this thread that couldn't scan or photograph their drivers license, then merge a different picture on it, or change your age? Probably a pretty easy task for most of us. How many of you can hack a *long* Public Key based system? That answer is zero.

Yes, a DMV'er can cheat, but that's a much smaller problem than any guy (or BPL'er for that matter) with a camera, Microsoft Paint and a medium quality printer and laminator. You might be able to paste a new picture over a REALID, but you won't be able to forge the digital picture or signature.

There are additional technical safeguards (PKI in you're interested) involved that make this a pretty good system.

For Sarah, there are ways w/ REALID that Sarah's "identity twin" issue can be mitigated so the real Sarah doesn't have to carry "I'm really not her" documents. But Sarah has to get a REALID, and so do others including her twin, first.

Don't get paranoid, you don't need to line your hat with aluminum foil, neither DHS nor the CIA is not reading your brain waves or your REALID from across the country.

Finally, to JR's point, if we're not going to make distinctions between legal and illegal, are we going to make a distinction with illegal felons, or escapees? Why don't we just open up our prisons?

Edited by eaglemb on 01/25/2007 18:32:18 MST.

J R
(RavenUL) - F
Re: Hey, J R -- Just Cut Them All Up! on 01/25/2007 18:39:20 MST Print View

Ben, have I angered you somehow?

Destroying a birth certificate would do nothing. I carry a drivers license as proof that I have learned to drive a vehicle and know how to operate one safely, not as some means by which my coming and going may be monitored. Surely you are capable of telling the difference between the two? I do not use my social security number for identification purposes either. The SSN was never meant to be used for identification purposes. The fact that it currently is, is a travesty, and you would be amazed how easy the recent rash of identify theft has made it to (rightfully) argue personal security as a reason not to provide an SSN for identification, nor do I ever plan to receive SSN checks in my old age. I do not, have not, and will not utilize any "benefits" I might have access to a veteran. I wouldn't even know HOW to get those benefits. If I have a "veterans benefits" card, I don't know about it.

Please do not try and tell me what "my reality" is. I am as aware of the situation as you are. However, I dont have to just say "aww well f__k it, Im already in the system.... might as well keep playing along" do I? Is that the whole of your argument?

This thread is interesting. So far I have been called an "anarchist", in a manner Im fairly certain was derogatory. Nearly accused of wanting to provide asylum for terrorists. Disliking Australians (wtf is that about?). So disregarded as to have been talked about in the third person as if I wasn't even in "the room". Baited with comments obviously intended to in some way draw me into a fight. And now finally I am being called naive and told to renounce proof of birth, proof I passed a drivers test, a number I had no hand in obtaining as I was an infant, and a veterans benefits card that doesn't exist.... and why?

Because I hold humanity higher than paperwork.

Right monster I am.