I seem to recall someone saying that moose kill more people in AK than anything else. Is that true in your experience? I guess also I thought that bull moose in particular were the issue during the rut, but this incident was just reported on today, it looks like. Is that atypical to have problems like that this time of year?

Jon: The net result of all my, my wife's, my kids' and my employees' bear experiences have been a few exciting moments on the trail and a few photo ops on the River.

Moose, on the other hand: I've nicked two. Lost the mirror off the driver side of the Subaru to one in heavy fog. In my defense, I missed the first moose by SO much I almost entirely missed the second moose. Some J-B Weld fixed it. The mirror, not the moose - the moose kept going.

And I was on a straight section of highway doing 55 at 7 am in January (i.e. completely dark) and there was a moose in the road. I started braking on the ice while it start running away on the ice. I was doing 45, it was doing 2. 35 and 4, 20 and 6, we met when I was doing 8 and it was doing 7 mph. It kicked my front bumper and thereafter it was going faster than I was.

The most detrimental event (in terms of wildlife and motor vehicles) was when the au pair called at midnight. She'd been returning from Anchorage and a moose ran out in front of her. She was okay but shaken. The Corolla was within an inch of being a Corolla and could be driven but for a broken window and no A/C (not really needed in February!). The moose took a bullet from the Trooper and was distributed through church volunteers to needy families. The Corolla was totalled in an insurance sense and I consoled the au pair that she'd fed four poor families that night.

Statewide, there's one bear fatality every other year. 0.5 per year, on average. In our borough (of 60,000 people, 1/11 of the state), there are about 400 moose road kills each year. Most of those cause $5,000-$20,000 of vehicle damage and maybe 10% of the people end up at the hospital. I'd guess, statewide, there are 2 or 3 moose-caused human fatalities each year. So 5x the risk compared to bears. Very few moose on the trail, most are encountered at 60 mph where guns don't matter but seat belts, air bags, and aerodynamic cars do help. I stress to all drivers in my household that a snowbank is a GREAT place to put the car when $h!t happens. If there's a wreck or moose on the road, just put it into a snowbank.

In Zimbabwe, I was more anxious about lions and cape buffalo. But hippos kill more locals and more tourists than everything else combined. Once I spent a week on the Zambezi River, I could believe it. I would like to think that if I'd been there longer, my anxieties would have (1) come in line with local risks and (2) lessened. But I was only there for a month.

My way of dealing with risk is to look at the numbers and see how I can adjust my behavior the least to reduce my risk the most. It works for me, but different people take different approaches.

Editted to answer Jon's second Q on seasonality: This incident seemed related to heavy snowfall and more moose being pushed down into town. I'd theorize that when the moose can't move/run as well to avoid predation, they get more aggressive and stand their ground more. The other seasonal issue is cows getting very protective of their calves when they first drop in early May. Then they'll cross a street to stomp a dog instead of just going the other way because the calf is so slow and wobbley for a few days. Conversely, just before calving, last year's calf is run off and it wanders around lonely for a few days coming up to me, even my dog, with a will-you-be-my-friend? look. Had one come up to the hot tub and we petted it on those nose in early May three years ago. We don't see a lot of bull moose in rut. Most of them are hunted. Mostly we see cows and calves.

Edited by DavidinKenai on 01/26/2012 06:13:25 MST.

"Statewide, there's one bear fatality every other year. 0.5 per year, on average. In our borough (of 60,000 people, 1/11 of the state), there are about 400 moose road kills each year. Most of those cause $5,000-$20,000 of vehicle damage and maybe 10% of the people end up at the hospital. I'd guess, statewide, there are 2 or 3 moose-caused human fatalities each year. So 5x the risk compared to bears."

Wouldn't a more valuable statistic for backpackers be the number of bear and moose fatalities in the wilderness? I suspect the majority of moose fatalities involve a vehicle accident.

I somehow missed a hot thread by four months.
2 years ago, I was in the Mt Baldy area, San Bernardino wilderness (Southern California) with my young nephew and my Labrador mix dog, puppy at the time. Took a less traveled trail, ran into a skinny young bear cub with 4 inch long claws, may be 100 lbs. He was shredding someone's UL tent and eating their sunblock. We surprised him, he stared at us, then in a flash galloped 15 yards towards us, I didn't get the feeling he was attacking, he probably thought we were going to feed him. It happened VERY fast, no time to draw or spray anything. Dog looked at me for instructions, nephew fascinated as if it was the zoo. The bear got close to 10 ft in his run towards us, I let out a loud throat-noise growl while pointing my trekking poles towards him. The skinny bear cub leaped 10 ft up and hugged a pine tree, like a monkey or a koala. He realized this was not a friendly food hand-out, he stared at us for 10 secs of eternity, then he leaped back down from the tree and returned to eating sunblock from the shredded tent. Like a child eating frosting off a cupcake.

At the time of the encounter, not knowing where the mama bear was, I didn't want to run further in the trail, and with a small nephew and a puppy dog, if we ran we would be prey. I don't believe in the popular advice to play dead in a fetal position and surrender your backpack. I figured the mama bear would defend her cub, so I gotta defend my nephew and dog. Although the mama bear was no where to be seen. Ranger believe he was an orphan cub.

I've been in the Mt Baldy area hundreds of times, only seen snakes, lizards and mule deer. First time the nephew comes along - bear charge. Go figure.

I am 100% sure, that had I been packing with easy access, I would have taken out the cub. Although I read later reports that he was hanging out in the parking lot and around campsites. "He was picked up" which means put to sleep.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y2f4-l_6pIc

Edited by RogerDodger on 05/07/2012 11:40:01 MDT.

Black Cat fire crackers. Light. Cheap. Make bang, bear go bub-bye.

"I don't believe in the popular advice to play dead in a fetal position and surrender your backpack. I figured the mama bear would defend her cub, so I gotta defend my nephew and dog."

Thats actually one time when playing dead would have been advisable. A mother bear has no predatory interest in you, she just wants the threat to go away. If you leave or look dead she's happy. The good news is statistically mother black bears are not that dangerious.

I'd wager that Mother bears are responsible for a larger portion of attacks. If she is anywhere close to you, you may get mauled until she is satisfied.

Edited by jshann on 05/07/2012 13:04:41 MDT.

"I've been in the Mt Baldy area hundreds of times, only seen snakes, lizards and mule deer."

35 years of hiking the Mt. Baldy area and never seen a bear there, although they show up on the news occasionally. I do carry one of those small cannister airhorns. Theres some evidence that they are effective in deterring bears.

John it depends on the bear. I looked up the statistics on fatal black bear attacks and 93% were by male black bears. So your chance of being killed by a mother black bear is small. Now perhaps your chance of being mauled but not killed by a mother black bear is a bit higher. However most black bear attacks do not seem to involve mother bears defending their cubs. I believe I've only heard of one or two cases. Grizzly mothers are the ones that give momma bears a fierce reputation.

"David,

Perhaps you are right. But what is the causation? Bad bears or people doing stupid things?"

It's definitely people doing stupid things first and then bears becoming habitualized. I live in BC and there's no shortage of black bears and grizzly bears. I live in a city of 2 million and heard a rustling outside my living room window last fall ... opened the blind and there was a black bear 16" from the glass. That was one of the closest encounters I've had with a bear.

For all the miles I've done in the Pacific NW [WA, BC and moving north to Yukon and Alaska] over a 10 year period, I've seen only one bear while mountain biking. That's it. In the Yosemite area, they're a huge problem. One night in 2010, car camping just north of Yosemite before a backcountry trip, a bear repeatedly approached our site even though all our food was incapsulated within the 0.25" steel food cache. Usually, I've found black bears [while in a car or a boat] are very skittish], these were not skittish, they really didn't care about our presence. That said, they weren't aggressive either. The whole night, all we heard were people banging pots and yelling - presumably, trying to scare away bears. This isn't the bear's fault, they know they can reliably get tasty food at a campsite. Why is the Yosemite area so bad - I don't know. The Yosemite backcountry seems fine b/c there's very little traffic. Doesn't seem to be a problem in BC and there's a lot of bears up here. In car camping spots like the one near Yosemite, I worry less about the bears and more about the drunk moron firing blindly into the woods to scare away/kill the relentless bears. These places are crammed with people, families and children. I'm not too worried about the responsible user/owner, but not every gun owner is responsible and you run into some pretty scary people in car camping spots.

Having caught a lift from a Park Ranger from camp 4 to Tuolumne, we discussed the gun laws in US Nat. Parks. He was not in favour for allowing guns into NPs. As alluded to above, you can carry a loaded weapon, but you cannot [i.e. it's illegal] to discharge it [i.e. you better have a really, really good reason for firing it]. Avoiding bear confrontations is mostly common sense in backcountry areas - we all know that - the only thing I'd add is be careful around rivers ... they're loud and bears can't hear you coming. Additionally, mountain bikes and other fast moving 'vehicles' don't give bears much chance to exit the area and can lead to confrontations.

I can understand the desire to carry a weapon, but alas, it's not going to happen in Canada so I just have to go on the super defensive and kill any potential for an encounter.

I haven't read the whole thread but last year Josh Spice wrote a summary of the available statistics on firearms and bear spray as bear protection

http://www.joshspice.com/2011/10/bear-spray-or-firearms-you-decide.html

The lesson I drew from that article is unless you are John Wayne (or other gun toting hero of your choice... ) stick with bear spray...

if a handgun or pepper spray is your choice for defense, you don't need to be a long range sniper or a "John Wayne" sharp shooter to hit a target at very close range of 5 ft to 10 ft.

In my opinion and experience, a threatening bear at 15 ft or more, is not an immediate threat yet, until the bear is within reaching distance.

Granted that because they generally look shaggy and fat, it's assumed that they move slow, but reality they can run those 15-20 ft in 2 seconds.

My personal comfort is that I would not need to pepper spray or discharge a weapon until the bear is charging me and closer within the 10 ft personal space.

Most novice people, spray or gun owners can manage to hit the target at such a near range of 10 ft (3 meters) and closer. Excluding psychological panic, or freeze.

However, my experience, I had a dog leash, two trekking poles looped around my elbow, and somehow I managed to wrap my arm around the nephew to push him behind me. while the whole time keeping my eyes on the bear. In those 10-20 secs, I didn't have the dexterity and coordination to drop my pack and sift through to get the pepper spray or air horn out of my pack. I don't wear all the gadgets on my waist like BatMan's utility belt.

So I quickly pointed my trekking poles towards the bear and growled at him.

Edited by RogerDodger on 05/08/2012 14:52:31 MDT.

I'm amazed at how someone afraid of guns invades a discussion on guns & bears - I always see this more in backpacking forums than anywhere else.

Regarding the .357mag snubby - if it makes you sleep easier at night and you are willing to pack it - great! It will work well on the human waste that crops up now and then and it is better than your bare hands and bad breath against a bear. I know that folks are enamored with 180gr WFN hardcast bullets because they penetrate very well, but I'm thinking at 158gr JSP is probably good enough and much more affordable to practice with.

A black bear isn't hard to kill. Most that are causing trouble weigh about 200lbs or less. But you aren't likely to win in a hand to hand combat test with one (although a guy did kill one with a chunk of firewood a year ago).

What needs to be understood is that black bears are responsible for the majority of predatory attacks - where they either want you or your kids. Grizzlies account for most of the defensive attacks. Good back country practice can protect you from the defensive attacks. But you need some sort of weapon to deal with predatory attacks.

Bear spray works. It is cheap. It is lightweight. It also gives you a non-lethal way to deal with someones dog (my baby wouldn't bite anyone!). I'm not anti-firearm in the least, but they are expensive and heavy.

I happened to run acroos some tests of .357 to see which rounds would be most suitable for a bear encounter. If I recall the best penatration was with JSP 180 grains rounds from Core Bond. A close second was the 180 grain Buffalo Bore rounds. I actually fired the heavy duty Core Bond load in a snub nosed ultralight .357 years ago. It wasn't something you'd want to do all day but it was manageable.

Again if I was facing a grizzly I'd much rather have bear spray or a bigger gun. However since some people are going to be packin heat one way or the other I thought I through that out there. Remember a LOT of handgun ammo is designed for police/civilian self defense and would be little better than a .22 on a bear.

This whole thread makes me think we are much stupider than wild animals, and certanly the most arrogant of all the animals.

There is a book by Daniel Quinn called Ishmael that claims that humans feel as though we own the world, and that this belief is what makes us okay with destroying natural things to make our lifestyle more "livable" even though we are killing the very things that allow us to thrive. I won't tell you what he blames for us thinking the world belongs to us as that will cause another 30 page discussion over nothing but anyone can certainly go buy the book.

Think of it like this: Imagine that you have gone to a city you are unfamiliar with and have found yourself broken down in the worst of neighborhoods. Do you reach for a gun to "protect" yourself from the chance that the natives will attack you or do you show them respect and know you are a visitor in their domain and will be out of their hair as quickly as possible? If you chose reach for a gun, you would most likely be dead in a few minutes. They would take this as you being disrespectful, stupid by showing your hand, and take advantage of the fact you are alone and scared. As long as you show them respect and that you understand you are not in control of their domain (and that they are) you will be left alone or even accepted in most cases. Even if you are robbed, you walk away with your life intact.

Why is going to a national park any different? Why do we feel the need to set up a tent and protect our ground from the native bears? If you are dumb enough to leave food out where they can smell it and take advantage of it, then at least have the courtesy to walk away and let them do what they do. Yes, you may have to buy more food. That is the price you pay for being in their domain and not protecting what you have better... but by walking away, you still have your life. Will a bear come kill you why you sleep? We all know that you have a better chance of being struck by lightning twice before this will happen.

I can arm myself to the T for every situation, or I can think smart. I choose smart. All of us animals, regardless of species, take advantage of weakness for personal gain. This is true in humans as much (if not more) than wild animals... just look at business practices and why certain companies thrive better than others. That is all bears are doing when they walk into your camp site - bettering their chances of survival by getting an easy meal. We are in their home, why not respect that and let them be the king in their domain, just like we would in an unfamiliar neighborhood.

"but danggit sometimes guns are just cool...."

Just remember to save the last round for yourself. ;=)

"Light. Cheap. Make bang, bear go bub-bye."

+1 I can verify that method from personal experience. It has its problems, though.
They are strictly forbidden in national parks and are generally illegal everywhere. There is also the risk of starting a forest fire in arid western areas. But they work. Very well. At least with black bears.

Edited to reflect correct post reference.

Edited by ouzel on 05/09/2012 18:32:01 MDT.

Devon, you should show the natives respect and pack heat in case they decide to kill you anyways.
You can choose both, despite so many people suggesting that you can't.
The safest and most independent person is someone who avoids a fight and even runs from one but is prepared to kill if necessary.

Tom, Firearms are not strictly forbidden in National Parks. The law now defers to state law. In general, anything legal or illegal to carry around town is the same in a National Park. In California you need a concealed carry permit to carry a firearm in a National Park. In a state where you can open carry a firearm (which is A LOT of states), you can open carry a firearm in a National Park in that state.

National Forests and BLM land generally allow firearm carry despite what the state law is in public places. I say generally because it's possible to get into issues when carrying long guns out of hunting season or without a hunting license.

"Tom, Firearms are not strictly forbidden in National Parks."

Justin - I screwed up my copy/paste. I was referring to firecrackers. Sorry for the technical goof.