So true, Nick.
From my office window in YNP, I could hear the park rangers throwing cherry bombs to chase bears out of Mammoth WY. Even if that bear never came back, another one would wander through sooner or later. We are in THEIR range.
Rangers would also drag grain shovels across the pavement to herd the elk away from the tourists. That was a losing battle as well.

http://www.handgunlaw.us/states/california.pdf

Info on concealed carry in California. California is a screwed up place when it comes to concealed carry. Local law enforcement can issue you a concealed carry permit if they wish. CA is called a 'may issue' state and it does not allow reciprocity from any other state--this is pretty much unheard of in the rest of the states. Most states are 'shall issue' states (only after extensive FBI background check, fingerprinting, etc. etc.) and honor/allow reciprocity of concealed carry permits from at least several other states. Making it difficult for folks to defend themselves seems to be working out very well for California.

http://www.nps.gov/yose/planyourvisit/weapons.htm

Page above from Yosemite NP on firearms and related info. So, if you have a concealed carry permit from CA, you can carry concealed in Yosemite, notwithstanding certain areas, BUT legally, you can't fire a shot to protect yourself. So, if that bear and there are tons of problem bears in Yosemite (I went nearly face to face with one in the middle of the night that was heading for the tent my two little girls were sleeping in in the middle of popular campground. All I had was a knife and my illegal can (didn't know that then)of bear spray--who would think that bearspray would be illegal in a park overun by mismanaged bears) is charging you or others with obvious malintent, you have to make a choice whether you want to try and ward off an attack from a bear (with gun or bearspray) or very likely spend time in jail. These are the choices our wonderful government has given us.

I have had numerous close encounters with black bears and wolves from CA, WA and Vancouver Island. Wolves were all on Vancouver Island. Some black bears turn and run, some don't care and I've had at least on encounter where two of them circled back around and where coming for us. These critters are certainly something to be at least aware of. And, ultimately, your safety and that of your family is your personal responsibility. Law enforcement is not going to be there to protect you--they only show up after the incident. Personally, I would be more concerned about the 2 legged varmints than the four legged. But, unfortunately, our government, in certain states/areas has given us the very real choice of fending off an attack of any kind illegally. Does that seem right?

Edited by jmden on 01/24/2012 12:26:29 MST.

"Black bears are not a problem, and require neither spray or guns."
"That is my point. We make the bears problematic."

And my point was that black bears, when turned bad, can be a problem even if you're practicing good bear-country habits. To say black bears aren't a problem is wrong. They absolutely can be a problem, and unless you're equipped to deal with a problem black bear, you could become a statistic...

Scott

Its nice to see that a simple post sparked this conversation....
I saw this lady up in Lake Tahoe who is the local black bear intervention officer...she trains people how to scare away the bears just by using body language. She also educates the public on how to properly avoid creating problems with the bears...thats where i heard about the pepper spray...but long before it comes to that, a little loud noise and body language will a long way....
as far as the guns...i dont think ill carry one...a rifle to go hunting with some family, sure....but ive never seen a bear while camping or driving through the state parks to visit...ive been to a lot of places that people see them or encounter them...and i feel snuffed! I guess its for the better!

Go to a Yosemite Valley campground during summer. Just wait until you hear a bunch of people banging on pots and yelling at the bears in the middle of the night. Happens nearly every night. Go take your flash pictures of the bear! Simple as that. :)

It is great to see wildlife and we have a great abundance of it in this country, more so than many others, due to a century of conservation. Doing a search to find where most of the conservation dollars have come from can be interesting, but that's another topic. We have many more opportunities than many around the world to see wildlife, but still you've got to be where they live, be very unobtrusive and the first and last hours of daylight is your best shot at seeing wildlife.

Nick said, "Search the threads. Black bears are not a problem, and require neither spray or guns. For Grizzlies, see what our experienced members who live and hike in Montana or Alaska do. The answers might be surprising."

Editted to add: I live and hike in Alaska. I see several grizzlies and black bears each year. I've dealt with black bears a lot in California and found Banff to be infested with well-behaved grizzlies (my wife and I intentionally took the nice loop with recent bear reports because we figured other people would avoid it. They did.)

I agree broadly that, per bear, black bears are not the problem. There are so many more of them and they overlap human activities so much more that blackies cause some of the deaths, most of the property damage, and virtually all of the sleepless nights due to pot-banging campers.

I never pack a gun and VERY rarely pack pepper spray. I make noise. My somewhat extensive reading of the stats and the research indicate that is how I can most reduce my risk of a bad grizzly encounter. I am totally cool with others carrying spray and data indicate the outcomes are better for spray than guns.

Hiker Jon said, "if (a) problem bears in Yosemite was heading for the tent my two little girls were sleeping in in the middle of popular campground. All I had was a knife and my illegal bear spray. . . (the bear) is charging you or others with obvious malintent, you have to make a choice whether you want to try and ward off an attack from a bear (with gun or bearspray) or very likely spend time in jail."

Oh, my, where to start? I think with my little children who might be camped in the next tent over. Are you so trained and practiced that in the heat of the moment, every shot will hit the bear? No misses? In the dark? No T&Ts? And when was the last bear fatality in Yosemite? I just looked it up. NEVER! So you want to turn a campground into a gun range (in the dark) to prevent something which never happens to millions of people a year.

Even if I grant that you and all people packing would never miss a shot, I as the adjacent father/camper would much rather yell at the bear or run at it with a stick (my usual approach for blackies) than have a wounded bear in camp.

That Ruger LCR has a 2-inch barrel! (Bullets accelerate while in the barrel. They slow down as soon as they leave the barrel). And is only .357! That's a great size for concealed carry and that a great round for humans. Put one round in my chest and I WON'T be doing you any harm for a long time. But bears, even black bears, can be bigger and absolutely can soak up more foot-pounds than you or me.

For me:

Black bears: be careful with your food. Camp where other people are careful with their food. Carry spray if you want and it's allowed.

Grizzlies: make noise. Carry spray if you want. If you carry a firearm, please carry enough gun to be effective. For most Alaskans who do, that's a .338 rifle (about 7-8 pounds). More importantly, know how to use it, know when not to use it, know your backstop at all times, and be wise and decisive in a crisis.

Edited by DavidinKenai on 01/24/2012 14:50:52 MST.

Hiking Jon's use of "obvious malintent",

(1) made me question how you determine a bear's intent in a dark campground and

(2) reminded me of an experience, camping in uber-uber-grizzly country with my wife, her parents, and our very young son (5 months old) in which intent was hard to discern IN BROAD DAYLIGHT.

Brook's Camp, Katmai National Park, September 2000. Great place for wilderness hiking, the volcanic moonscape left over the 1912 Novarupta blast, and especially, bear watching.

We're camped out, in the open, in a tent. Regulations are tight and specific. All food is stored inside a wooden building. Inside a wire fence. An electrified wire fence.

An adolescent grizzly heads into camp. Maybe 200 pounds. Everyone in camp goes INSIDE the electric fence. Except my wife and in-laws who do their duty and are making noise, rising their arms, shouting, "Go away bear, we don't want you hear bear!" just to be saying something. And the bear keeps coming and they keep talking at it. I'm a little further back, not because I don't normally do the same thing, but because I have our 5-month-old son in a chest carrier and it just seems like maybe the non-child-carrying adults should take the lead.

Because I'm 40 feet further back, I have a broader view of what's going on. What I realize is that the adolescent bear was walking down the narrow beach of the nearby lake while a mama and cubs were coming the other way. Because the adolescent is a threat to the cub and the mama knows it, the mama is a BIG threat to the adolscent and he knows it. So he bolted off the beach to avoid the mama bear and THAT'S why he's heading through our camp.

I call out to wife and grandparents, "He's just avoiding another bear, he's not trying to get food, just let him pass!" and they did. And he did.

I'll stack my wife's bear sense against anyone's as she's had a lot more experience than I have despite her being better about making noise at all risky places because she's been in more remote, griz-infested places for extended trips. And she couldn't discern a bear's intent in broad daylight, with perfect sight lines.

And people who think they can assess bear behavior in the dark and who think blackies in Yosemite are a greater risk than, say, them getting elected president want to carry and use a gun?!? In a crowded campground?

I think Yosemite's policies on guns were better before the federal law change. I'm sure they made things safer for me.

Dear David,

Did I advise anyone to carry a gun, or bear spray for that matter? No. I also did not qualify my statements enough, apparently, and if someone was willing to take liberty with those statements, one could arrive at the conclusions you drew.

If you choose do carry a method to defend yourself, you had better get proper training and have thought through the use of the weapon, whatever it may be. Again, that is part of the personal responsibility I mentioned. You will be responsible for any incorrect use of a weapon, you can bet on that and the consequences can be enormous.

Your idea of not carrying any weapon and being aware of bear behavior and statistically how best to deal with is also a valid response. My only concern with it is that a person really has no last ditch method to defend themselves/family if it comes to it. If you are willing to put yourself in that potential, albeit small percentage, situation and have thought through the potential consequences and pros and cons and be willing to live with the outcome, that is the individual choice a person has. We should also have the choice to defend ourselves.

Goodness, David, did I say someone should start firing randomly with gun in the middle of the night? No. This is part of that training and thought process that someone should very carefully think through before ever considering to use gun. A gun is rarely a good fix to many situations and their use for self defense should be very rare, but they are very useful if that situation, under proper conditions. The gun it a tool and like any tool, you need to realize when to use that tool and do so properly or severe consequences will result.

Not sure what T&T's are. You'll have to enlighten me.

Do you not think some concern on my part was warranted when I saw a large black bear 6' from and heading in the direction of my girls tent? Perhaps I should've just stayed in bed and done nothing sleeping tight in the knowledge that my girls were safe because no bear had ever killed anyone in Yosemite NP? The campground we were staying in was very well lighted and we had a big outdoor light 50 yards away that, when the bear came close to my silnylon tent wall literally 3' away, showed the bear in great detail. That's how I knew it was there and could tell how far it was from my girls and the direction it was headed.

As it turned out, I believe the bears where simply making the rounds looking for scraps in the campground. A neighbor two campsites down told us the next morning that they'd watched the large black bear easily manipulate and open the bear box in their campsite as they watched from the 'safety' of their hard sided trailer, which they also had their food in. Apparently at least some of the bears are smarter than those who engineered the bear food boxes. :)

There are many devices that make shooting at close range in the dark a safer proposition, but none of them allow you to ignore basic firearms safety rules. Only when these rules are ignored by the operator, do people, etc. get hurt.

The .gov YNP website says bear attacks are 'rare'. That doesn't mean they don't happen.

A .357 loaded with proper heavy bullet made for bear and the right powder to propel that bullet is barely potentially adequate to deal with most black bears. Most North American black bears are around 200lbs and they don't have mysterious life force that a bullet properly located, can't extiguish. If a potently loaded (a whole 'nother discussion) .357 will easily dispatch a man, and it will, it will deal with your average black bear. It it always be better to pack something larger of at least .44 Magnum size for black bear country and even larger for grizzly, like a 460 S&W or a 500 S&W. The issue with the larger guns become that of ability to shoot accurately and get back on target for follow up shots. Often its better to connect with your target consistently with a smaller round than to miss repeatedly due to not being able to accurately shoot the gun you have. Bigger guns are also obviously harder to conceal, if that is an issue, and it is in Nat'l Parks.

Edited by jmden on 01/24/2012 17:51:25 MST.

"(1) made me question how you determine a bear's intent in a dark campground and"

I didn't say that I did determine the bears intent, did I? I didn't speak to intent at all. I was simply very concerned under the circumstances and wanted the bear to go away. I yelled at it and bolted outside from the tent my wife and I were in (circumstances explained more fully in post above) with the only weapons I had. Are you saying you wouldn't have done the same? No one said anything about that being a proper place/time to shoot a bear in defense of family. As it turns out, that particular bear mosied off with no trouble, but what if this had happened to be one of those 'rare' bear attacks in YNP and I'd hit it with my bearspray and landed in jail to avert an attack when malintent was obvious? I guess if that's the risk we take to protect those closest to us, so be it. What's the alternative?

"And people who think they can assess bear behavior in the dark and who think blackies in Yosemite are a greater risk than, say, them getting elected president want to carry and use a gun?!? In a crowded campground?"

If you are talking here about me, I didn't say I could assess bear behavior in the dark. I specifically used the terms 'obvious malintent' to try to communicate a situation where you were down to only the option of using bear spray or a firearm to protect self/family, if properly trained to do so. I thought that 'obvious' and 'malintent' used together would be very clear. You can't have 'obvious malintent' if you can't see clearly, can you?

Edited by jmden on 01/24/2012 17:53:25 MST.

Jon,

My apologies that I misread your posting as a desire for the option to use a gun "in the middle of the night. . . in the middle of popular campground".

"did I say someone should start firing randomly with gun in the middle of the night?"

No, I didn't say nor think that YOU would.

My concern is that, if guns are at hand in such a setting, some people will not have the training and judgement you properly advocate.

I agree with that "You will be responsible for any incorrect use of a weapon", but what happens to the shooter is less my concern than what happens to his possible, unintended human victims.

You have some limited rights to be ready to defend yourself. With what you do have at hand, you have very broad rights to defend you and your family's life. But your decisions and judgement will be scrutinized.

I have some limited rights to be in a public area relatively free from the chance that a person allowed to carry a firearm will make a mistake and injury me or my family.

Neither of those rights is absolute and both have shifted over the years. Most of my Alaskan friends fall more on the gun-rights side of these issues than I do. Most of my West- and East-Coast friends go more to the public-safety side than I do.

This week, in Anchorage, due to deep snow, they are having far more problems with moose than any other critter. I wouldn't fault someone for packing a snub-nosed, low-mass .357 to potentially stop a moose stomping again, IF they had that training and experience we both advocate. I know a lot of mushers who pack something similar for that exact reason.

But guns in Yosemite? To reduce the virtually non-existent risk of a bear attack? With the judgement of the average outdoorsperson I see on the Mist Trail? No thank you.

Guns won't/don't reduce the risk of a bear attack, but properly used, they may avert one.

I agree that the average good judgement and common sense of the person on the street is suspect at best, products of this irresponsible culture that they are, but that should not preclude my right to defend life in most public areas.

This is an age old struggle to define the best balance on this issue, but on one side there is the 2nd Amendment to the US Constitution and many state constitutions that VERY clearly call this an individual right, such as my own state (Washington) does. The drawers of these documents clearly understood the foundational right to defense of life and country.

Anyway, back to 'UL bear protection' from the OP. Learn about bears and other wildlife and how best to avoid trouble. Turns out that is very UL! :) Consider carrying a big canister of bear spray and learn how to use it properly and resolve and steel yourself to do so properly, if needed. If you don't hit the incoming bear that has 'obvious malintent' at the proper distance in the proper location, there's absolutely no reason to be carrying bear spray, or a gun, for that matter!

Not all bear spray is created equal. Some has lower concentrations of capsaicin ('hot' ingredient) than others and they all have expiration dates. Not sure if the capsaicin becomes less potent over time, or what. Some have ranges of 30', some less. My personal favorite at the moment is 'UDAP Bear Spray' as it seems to have the greatest range and potency that I've seen yet. It also comes with the best 'quick into action' yet secure belt carrying case I've seen yet. I spend quite a bit of time in Montana and it seems to be the favorite there sold many places.

I take this into Canada as well on kayaking trips. Ironically, you can't take regular pepper (meant for humans assailants) spray into Canada to defend yourself. But, if it's labeled 'bear spray', you can take it across the border into Canada. Yet, bear spray is typically a much larger container of exactly what a women, for instance, might buy in the way of pepper spray to defend herself against a 2-legged assailant! Interesting. OK to defend yourself against bears, but not humans?

And, yes, a rifle of adequate caliber, .338 being a very good compromise of several characteristics, would be a good place to start. A 12 gauge pump shotgun with multiple potent magnum load of slugs is likely better for close in. But, it's kind of hard to conceal these! :)

Edited by jmden on 01/24/2012 19:20:09 MST.

The OP asked about a small lightweight handgun for defense against bears. Personally, I think I'd prefer pepper spray. That said, Buffalo Bore sells a very potent ammo for bear defense for use in small guns. Here it is: http://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_detail&p=291

http://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_detail&p=100

I think the OP was asking about .357 magnum in particular, wasn't he?

Link above is for a heavier than typical (for a .357 magnum) 180 grain bullet and the foot pounds of energy is 783 at the muzzle. Pretty potent. (For stopping power, a heavier bullet is nearly alwasy better. So a 'heavy for caliber' bullet is typically a good selection for a situation like this, with specific bullet design being very important as well. )But the bullet in the link is a hardcast bullet which won't deform and mushroom like a typical lead core bullet. However, because of the fact that it won't deform like typical lead bullets, it will likely penetrate farther, which may be a benefit in a bear/self defense situation. Most 'dangerous game' hunters in Africa, for instance, will use heavy, solid bullets that deform little, opting instead for deep penetration in dangerous game situations. This type of 'hard cast' bullet may be more like the solid bullet mentioned for dangerous game hunters and so may be appropriate for a close bear encounter, but I don't have personal experience with them, so...

If you do a little research, you'll see that handgun (because that was what the OP talked about) black bear hunters, in general, have a some unoffical items to consider when hunting bears. Generally, they'll look for a .40 caliber or larger, which the .357 magnum is not. (A larger frontal area to a bullet means more tissue upset, in general, with potential for a quicker killing power, which is the point in this situation.) In terms of kinetic energy (KE), they look for a cartridge/bullet/powder/gun combination that develops at least 600 ft. lbs. of energy (By contrast, the medium power of a .30-06 round will have just under 3000 ft. lbs. of energy at the muzzle and the typical 9mm handgun round is around or just under 400 ft. lbs.). And, they will look for a premium bullet designed for the purpose at hand. Many will select the Hornady XTP bullet as it is a good compromise between expansion and penetration. The variables in making selections liket this can make your mind spin, but knowing how to select the right gun and bullet/cartridge/powder combination for the purpose is pretty important.

That being said, hunting a black bear is much different from stopping a charging black bear. In the latter, you may want more power than the minimums listed above, which is why I mentioned the .44 magnum and others in a previous post. Problem is these 'hand cannons' get difficult to shoot accurately.

Bear spray is likely the best answer after just learning about wildlife and how to avoid issues.

If you clearly understand the issues surrounding handloading (loading your own rounds--not nearly as difficult and dangerous as many are lead to erroneously believe--and it's much cheaper than buying factory ammo), you can easily then select the best combination, among all the variables of bullet/powder and charge of powder, for your purpose, instead of being locked into the factory offerings that may not fit the purpose you may have.

Edited by jmden on 01/25/2012 15:09:34 MST.

"I think the OP was asking about .357 magnum in particular, wasn't he?"

Yes, he was. I was just hoping he'd get a sprained wrist instead of a broken one. :-)

I can't imagine shooting either of these two rounds out of such a lightweight gun.

"Yes, he was. I was just hoping he'd get a sprained wrist instead of a broken one. :-"

I shot some big ones, to see what the fuss was about. The biggest I ever shot was a .454 magnum (no I don't carry it). Unless you have a weak wrist or really mess up it won't do damage but its not something you shoot for casual recreation. I actually have shot heavy .357 loads in a light revolver (One was a 180 grain load, I believe it was the buffalo bore load). It won't break your wrist but getting jerked around like that encourages flinching so I wouldn't do it long.

Edit - I've argued bears and guns before and had enough. I'm just trying to be helpful before someone spends big bucks.

hi..im the OP...
The only reason i asked about this was because i was watching a show on the sportsman channel and they spotlighted this particular gun...available in a .357 option and weighing half the weight of a full size .357....i was just curious if that WOULD stop a bear...sounds like one would need something larger....and from i saw from the guy firing it...the recoil was minimal...of course he was a professional, but he kept all 5 shots inside the ten from 6 yards away firing at a shot per half second...
if you were good...5 shots to bears head would likely kill it no? i mean..i dont own a gun... rarely go shooting with rifles...so i really have zero room to speak...
I carry spray in the absolute event that i feel it is my only option...otherwise i will keep my distance and practice safe food storage....
you guys seem to know way more about this stuff...but i have 100% learned something!
Thanks everyone for your $.02 and maybe ill just get the .38 special to keep in my nightstand...for shooting flys and mosquitoes around the house! lol

Nicholas I have no problem with guns but they are a big responsiblity. If you want to get one fine. Just know what you're getting into. I know a guy who went out, bought a .357 after never shooting in his life and started hiking with it as bear protection. He didn't really know what he was doing, didn't have the skills to use it right and probably wasn't familiar with the legal issues surrounding guns.

Here's my 2 cents.
If you want a gun I'd go ahead and get the .357 not the .38. The .357 is basically a longer version of the .38 special so you can use either roung. 38s are cheaper and kick much less but you have the option to use 357 ammo if you want. 38s are actually quit fun to shoot at cans.
Know the legal issues of having a gun and using one. Its not that complicated but you can get youreself it major legal trouble if you mess up.

If bears make you nervious bear spray is cheaper. Its also much easier for the average person to deploy. If you want to shoot a bear with a gun you have to hit a vital area. Thats a small target and its moving fast. On the other hand all you have to do with bear spray is spray a cloud of spray into the bear's face.

All right I've said my peice, if you want more PM me and I'll be happy to reply. I probably wont' post again because gun threads go downhill after a while.

Edited by Cameron on 01/25/2012 16:00:03 MST.

"This type of 'hard cast' bullet may be more like the solid bullet mentioned for dangerous game hunters and so may be appropriate for a close bear encounter, but I don't have personal experience with them"

Hiker Jon:

The flat nose hard cast bullets are a great choice for a bear defense bullet. Your supposition is correct - they are designed to stay together and penetrate the thick hide, fat, and bone of bear in order to get to the vital organs or brain and stop the bear in his tracks.

I carry handloads (40 caliber, 700 ft-lb) using just such a bullet in bear country. I also carry bear spray, and I've been told by a friend with a lifetime of experience hunting and fishing Montana and Alaska that the bear spray is very effective, based on his personal experience.

As a hunter (gasp!), I have to deal with downed game, which attracts bears in grizzly territory. Grizzlies love a downed elk or deer, and they can be pretty stealthy! My personal bear strategy has four levels:

1. Contact avoidance
2. Noise
3. Bear spray
4. Firearm

I'd rather have my bear spray and firearm and not need them, than need them and not have them. It is up to me to make the decision on when to use them, and that's good because it's my life or the lives of friends and family that are at risk if they need to be used. I don't want anyone else making that decision for me. I know that I have to live with whatever happens should I choose to use them, and that's part of the complex decision-making process. I hope I never have to resort to level 4, but I am prepared to do so, should that inevitable day come.

Regards,
Scott

ETA: I'm sure this thread is heading for the inevitable "guns vs. no guns" crash, so this will be interesting...

Edited by cyclewacko on 01/25/2012 16:05:51 MST.

Scott,

Very well said.

I'm another hunter (double gasp). Washington has more bears per square area of bear habitat than any other western state, last I heard, with too many black bears causing trouble even getting into Seattle on occasion. You hear about a mauling or two a year it seems, one of the last one's was a coworkers mother-in-law a couple of blocks away from her house on a residential street. On my solo bear hunt this year up high in an alpine wilderness area, I saw 10 bears in less than 24 hours. A second bear tag in WA is only $12--they are trying to reduce the numbers.

Here's how one long-time Alaskan dealt with uppity wildlife.

http://newsfeed.time.com/2012/01/25/85-year-old-woman-takes-on-moose-saves-husband/

It could multipurpose to dig catholes much quicker and with less sanitation worries than your titanum dinner spork.