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Dustin Short
(upalachango) - MLife
Propane on 01/20/2012 13:12:17 MST Print View

Now the big question...

I saw that you can still find Bernzomatic PC8 Torches (i think with can) online. Is it possible to refill the PC8? Because that would then allow all that cool propane adapter stuff you talked about but without having to carry those beasts of a fuel canister.

Hikin' Jim
(hikin_jim) - MLife

Locale: Los Angeles, CA, USA
Re: Propane on 01/20/2012 13:36:00 MST Print View

You could refill those canisters (if you can find some). It would take a different refiller. Working with propane is a different game than working with butane. The risks are greater. I'm actually working on a post about that although I really have more just ideas and concepts. I have been practicing butane refilling for a couple of years. I haven't got that kind of experience behind propane refilling.

HJ
Adventures In Stoving

David Thomas
(DavidinKenai) - MLife

Locale: North Woods. Far North.
Re: Re: Propane on 01/20/2012 13:40:50 MST Print View

Jim: I've been refilling propane for years, but never butane. We're ying and yang. Or Click and Clack. Or Mutt and Jeff?

Anyway, you're welcome to shoot me your write-up if you want me to review it. I know you're not writing it for an audience like me (never do that!), but I'm happy to double-check it for you. I'm PM you my big mailbox address.

Roger Caffin
(rcaffin) - BPL Staff - MLife

Locale: Wollemi & Kosciusko NPs, Europe
Re: Re: Wouldn't a quality stove adaptor (3) be less hassle/safer? on 01/20/2012 14:44:05 MST Print View

> for example the ST-310 from Soto.

Now that stove DOES worry me! There is no way with a stock unit to prevent the canister from getting a LOT of heat from the flames, especially with a large pot. Frightening to me. George would have been horrified.

Cheers

Alan Bradley
(ahbradley)
re SOTO stove on 01/20/2012 15:04:39 MST Print View

The SOTO website pictures show a heat deflector above the can, and the stove.

Perhaps a bigger wider circular heat reflector could be added, it looks quite a tall stove.

Hopefully they did the sums/tests...

but its a bit heavy anyway

Edited by ahbradley on 01/20/2012 15:22:37 MST.

Hikin' Jim
(hikin_jim) - MLife

Locale: Los Angeles, CA, USA
Re: Re: Re: Wouldn't a quality stove adaptor (3) be less hassle/safer? on 01/20/2012 15:52:05 MST Print View

> for example the ST-310 from Soto.

Now that stove DOES worry me! There is no way with a stock unit to prevent the canister from getting a LOT of heat from the flames, especially with a large pot. Frightening to me. George would have been horrified.
Alan is correct. There does appear to be a heat shield and the stove does sit up fairly high.

Who is George?

HJ
Adventures In Stoving





Hikin' Jim
(hikin_jim) - MLife

Locale: Los Angeles, CA, USA
Re: Re: Re: Propane on 01/20/2012 16:04:50 MST Print View

David Thomas wrote: I've been refilling propane for years, but never butane. We're ying and yang. Or Click and Clack. Or Mutt and Jeff?
Or Laurel and Hardy? ;)

David Thomas wrote: Anyway, you're welcome to shoot me your write-up if you want me to review it. I know you're not writing it for an audience like me (never do that!), but I'm happy to double-check it for you. I'm PM you my big mailbox address.
I got your PM, and I may take you up on that. So far, I've got some concepts but no track record.

As we've discussed on other threads, I've got all the components for refilling, including a Brunton Fuel Tool. Add an adapter (either propane or butane) to the Bruton Fuel Tool, and you've got a makeshift refiller.


I've successfully refilled CV360 butane cartridges for some time (these are used for small hand torches and Rando 360 stoves) using the above set up.


The problem occurs when I try to refill something like a PowerMax canister.


The majority of the gas comes spurting right back up along the "needle" of the Brunton Fuel Tool. What is needed is a way to seal the valve area around the needle of the fuel tool. A rubber sleeve and "O" ring would probably do it, but I never got around to trying that.

HJ
Adventures In Stoving

David Thomas
(DavidinKenai) - MLife

Locale: North Woods. Far North.
Re: Re: Re: Re: Propane on 01/20/2012 16:18:07 MST Print View

>"The majority of the gas comes spurting right back up along the "needle" of the Brunton Fuel Tool."

Okay, well that torpedos my plans for that adapter I just ordered. Can't ever have too many adapters around the house, but maybe I should impose on some of my EAA (experimental aircraft association) buddies for some shop time. They have some serious shops! And use a lathe to make an adapter from each fuel type to 1/8" pipe thread. Then I can match anything to anything and really get in trouble.

Have you tried chilling the receiving canister first? I never saw it anywhere, but it just made sense to me and I've always done it for propane-propane transfers. And keeping the donor cartridge at room temp or a little above.

Of course I have 3 freezers (kitchen freeze at 10-15F for ready reserve stuff, in-house chest freezer at -5F for the next month of stuff, and the deep freeze at -15F to keep the sockeye fillets as fresh as possible for as long as possible) plus it's been -25F outside for too long this week so I can play with fuel canisters without Kristin noticing.

Back to your Brunton refiller: So that little stem is just a bit too small in diameter? Like by a few coats of paint? Hint. Hint. Or a thin film of 2-part epoxy painted on?

Hikin' Jim
(hikin_jim) - MLife

Locale: Los Angeles, CA, USA
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Propane on 01/20/2012 18:22:48 MST Print View

What I was thinking of for my ad hoc refiller is something like this:


The rubber around the "needle" of the fuel tube would seal against the valve assembly. I think.

Have you tried chilling the receiving canister first? I never saw it anywhere, but it just made sense to me and I've always done it for propane-propane transfers. And keeping the donor cartridge at room temp or a little above.

Yes. If you put the receiving canister in the freezer for 1/2 an hour, it helps tremendously. I've also used a freezer gel pack and wrapped that around the receiving canister. That helps also, although it's more fiddle. One can also dunk the donating canister in warm water. Judiciously. Overheating the canister would be a problem of course. But if the water is tolerable to the touch, then it's fine.

For rapid filling I use the chill-the-recipient and warm-the-donor method. The easiest is to hook it up and let it sit overnight, but that only works if you have a nice refiller like the one on my blog. If you're using the Brunton Fuel Tool as a refiller, the warm/chill method is the way to go.

HJ
Adventures In Stoving

Edited by hikin_jim on 01/20/2012 18:28:49 MST.

David Thomas
(DavidinKenai) - MLife

Locale: North Woods. Far North.
Propane refilling on 01/20/2012 18:27:03 MST Print View

Interesting. You're going to seal the gap between the canister and the adapter. Whereas I was going to to make the "needle" a larger diameter. I don't have my adapter in hand yet, but I'll report in when I do.

Hikin' Jim
(hikin_jim) - MLife

Locale: Los Angeles, CA, USA
Re: Propane refilling on 01/20/2012 18:39:47 MST Print View

I'm sure there's a way to get it to work.

I still think this type of adapter is going to be a lot more convenient, but that's a tricky adapter because there needs to be a pin in either end to depress the Lindal valves. Also the valve in the middle is needed or else you'll be spraying fuel all over as soon as you detach one or the other of the canisters.


Just how good are these EAA guys? :)

HJ
Adventures In Stoving

David Thomas
(DavidinKenai) - MLife

Locale: North Woods. Far North.
Re: Re: Propane refilling on 01/20/2012 18:47:33 MST Print View

>"Just how good are these EAA guys? :)"

Jim, you get nervous when you light a new stove or transfer fuel.

These guys go up in airplanes they built from tubes and fabric or FG and resin. They're good or they're dead.

Hikin' Jim
(hikin_jim) - MLife

Locale: Los Angeles, CA, USA
Re: Refilling Gas Canisters on 01/20/2012 18:47:40 MST Print View

Addenda:

The type of adapter shown immediately above is referred to as an NN type. "N" apparently means 7/16" UNEF. "NN" means that both ends are threaded to 7/16" UNEF.

I don't know who makes them. I see them on two different websites in Japan:
Tumekaekun
Alva

I talked to my wife, who is Japanese, and she wasn't able to easily discern the manufacturer, but it's been some time (a couple of years) since I talked to her about those two sites.

HJ
Adventures In Stoving

Hikin' Jim
(hikin_jim) - MLife

Locale: Los Angeles, CA, USA
Re: Re: Refilling Gas Canisters on 01/20/2012 18:52:58 MST Print View

These guys go up in airplanes they built from tubes and fabric or FG and resin. They're good or they're dead.
Yeah, I kind of figured.

Show them that adapter and see what they can do. That's the ideal.

Even though they're expensive I'm tempted to get one just so I can refuel the two Bernzomatic PowerCells that I managed to scrounge up. Still, probably close to $100 by the time shipping is paid. Ouch.

HJ
Adventures In Stoving

Roger Caffin
(rcaffin) - BPL Staff - MLife

Locale: Wollemi & Kosciusko NPs, Europe
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Propane on 01/20/2012 19:17:57 MST Print View

Hi Jim

Yes, your ad-hoc refiller would work. But put a little bit of pressure on the rubber.

What is meant to happen is for the thin spout to seal against the rubber flange just under the top of the metal nipple, but not all manufacturers have the same size hole in the rubber. You have met one which is too big.

Corollary: some combinations do not even need that O-ring you see in the base of most connectors. The rubber seals against the valve actuation pin, which is hollow in those cases. [eg CampingGaz and Powermax] But keep that O-ring in place, because you can be quite sure that whatever combination you take on your next trip will NOT seal!

Cheers

Edited by rcaffin on 01/21/2012 02:13:44 MST.

Hikin' Jim
(hikin_jim) - MLife

Locale: Los Angeles, CA, USA
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Propane on 01/20/2012 22:04:58 MST Print View

Thank you, Roger.

I noticed that I was able to fill some canisters with no problems at all whereas with others the majority of the fuel went shooting into the air.

HJ
Adventures In Stoving

Mark Fowler
(KramRelwof) - MLife

Locale: Namadgi
Another refiller on 04/12/2013 00:58:41 MDT Print View

I have had a heap of old gas canisters hanging around, not quite enough gas in them for my trips and I can only use up so many when playing with my stoves. When I purchased my Kovea Spider I noticed on the same seller's site this little device for connecting 2 screw thread canisters so I added it to the order.

Gas Saver

I have just tried out my new "Gas Saver" device and emptied 2 largely empty Elemental 230g canisters into another one and a 3rd into a small 110 gram canister.

While I do not recommend, or even suggest, anybody refill canisters themselves, I reserve my right to immolate myself at a time and in a manner of my own choosing.

I also solved the problem of stopping the canister from being overfilled. I remembered a solution to preventing a canister from over filling being suggested on bpl. That is to tip the canister being filled at an angle to the vertical to maintain an air gap between the top of the container and the lindal valve in the canister. The suggestion was that a 20% volume air gap was required. It was also stated that calculating this would be a nightmare.

I have derived the angle by experiment rather than calculation for the elemental 230g canisters. They seem to be identical in profile to KMart's CampMaster 227g canisters and no doubt other brands as well - these are Australian brands but made in Korea like just about all of them. Please note that this angle is dependent on the profile of the canister. It is also dependent on the pressure in the two canisters being equal but this would normally be the case (unless you were filling with pure propane).

I knocked a second hole in an empty canister next to the valve. I filled the canister with water and weighed it - 633g. Subtract the canister 131g to get a volume of 502cc (1/2 a litre). We want an air gap of 20% or 100cc, so I poured out 100 grams of water. I then tipped the canister while aligning it with a protractor and read off 35 degrees just as water started to escape from the hole next to the valve.
Canister filling angle

jerry adams
(retiredjerry) - MLife

Locale: Oregon and Washington
Re: Another refiller on 04/12/2013 11:22:49 MDT Print View

To avoid overfill you could do it by weight.

Make sure re-filled canister is 13 ounces (or whatever) or less. Weigh the from and to canisters to see how much they each have and calculate if it's too much. etc.

Ian B.
(IDBLOOM) - MLife

Locale: PNW
Re: Another refiller on 04/12/2013 15:20:05 MDT Print View

I'm probably looking at this wrong but how does that device even work? My only experience with anything like this is using a cascading system of several O2 tanks at various PSIs at the fire department to fill up our O2 bottles after a call. Obviously with this system, if the receiving bottle has a higher PSI than the tank then you end up losing O2 back into the tank vs filling the bottle.

As a person who's lost his eyebrows and melted his eyelashes together a couple times, I really shouldn't even consider refilling a canister.

EDIT my asumption is that the device would equalize the presure between the two canisters if there wasn't a pump to transfer the remaining gas.

Edited by IDBLOOM on 04/12/2013 15:22:40 MDT.

jerry adams
(retiredjerry) - MLife

Locale: Oregon and Washington
Re: Re: Another refiller on 04/12/2013 15:32:17 MDT Print View

Take the one you want to fill and put it in freezer. When cold, take it out, connect canisters with the one you want to fill on the bottom, open valve.