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Brian UL
(MAYNARD76)

Locale: New England
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: wage slave: perceived poverty on 01/20/2012 10:46:21 MST Print View

"As to "wage slave," that would describe me when I was young. I had no salable skills, so my wage earning potential was limited. I did something about it, and others do not. The term does not bother me... actually I am proud of what I did to get out of that situation.'

Ii find it highly offensive that people are living paycheck to pay check in a first world country. Every one has a salable skill. if no one flipped burgers ,swept floors, and took out the trash no one would have a business to make money from and feel superior about. But arguing with people who hold capitalism as a religion is as productive as arguing evolution with a christian.

Brian UL
(MAYNARD76)

Locale: New England
Re: Re: Re: Re: How has the change been? on 01/20/2012 10:51:10 MST Print View

'There's nothing simple about the issue, and there are no simple answers to it."

actually there are pretty simple answers to it. No other first world country has a wealth gap as big as ours. The issue is if you pay people a living wage it eats into the profit of the CEO'S. We are lead to believe that CEOs are god like talents that can never earn enough and the rest of the population are slow witted and lazy and should be happy that they have what they do. No whining allowed.

Edited by MAYNARD76 on 01/20/2012 10:52:12 MST.

Doug I.
(idester) - MLife

Locale: MidAtlantic
Re: Re: Re: Re: wage slave: perceived poverty on 01/20/2012 10:53:48 MST Print View

"Edited:
"fairly well known slang term". Apparently it is. English is not my first or second or third or even fourth language...how is that for a snob ;)"

I'd be the snob, Kat, for just assuming that everyone, even the large contingent of non Americans/non native-English speakers would know that it's a fairly well known slang term! Sorry!

David Thomas
(DavidinKenai) - MLife

Locale: North Woods. Far North.
Re: David on 01/20/2012 10:55:31 MST Print View

Kat: As Doug posted, "wage slave" is a term for people for whom not going to work or taking some days off or taking a cut in pay isn't an option. I've seen it used so much I think of it as descriptive, not derogatory, and I apologize to anyone who took as derogatory.

I gravitate towards some quirky phrases such the many that Douglas Coupland gave in "Generation X" like "anti-sabbatical" and the "veal-fattening pen" I worked in while in a large engineering firm (a cubicle). But perhaps I shouldn't use them in a setting where people can't see me smile or hear my tone of voice.

Similarly, for me to admit that I have some flexibility in my time and my money I think of descriptive not "pompous", but the USA is kind of weird on that point. We're all middle class, but some people are more middle class than others (to paraphrase George Orwell's Animal Farm). In other societies, economic differences are noted because, well, they exist and they drive some behaviors. That was my point - broadly you might expect different spending habits (like joining BPL) among people with different budgets.

Matthew: Thank you for discerning that I was just being descriptive. I'm sorry if I spoke too broadly - I didn't and don't think that a person who counts pennies wouldn't ever send 1,999 of them to BPL for a membership. My thought was that (NOT UNIVERSALLY BUT BROADLY) younger people have experienced more free movies, free music downloads, free file sharing and free encyclopedias on line for more of their lives. I know some teenagers and 20-somethings nowadays who are adverse to paying for any content in a way I never was at that age.

Regarding:"If you do things correctly then there should be no issues. Don't ship until you are paid and pay with paypal so you are protected. " That's only half the equation. If anyone can sell, then one could be sending money into a void.

Nick summed up my thoughts more concisely: a subscription model has its limits. The trends I clumsily conveyed suggest to me that a subscription model will have more problems in the years to come.

Nick Gatel
(ngatel) - MLife

Locale: Southern California
Re: Re: Wage slave on 01/20/2012 10:56:39 MST Print View

"We are all very proud of you Nick."

I wasn't bragging or looking for kudos ;)

Younger people tend to start at the bottom of the wage scale, that is normal. And poor people do not necessarily have sense of entitlement. However there is a real difference between the generations, and if a business is not in tune with it, then it can negatively influence their operation. But we cannot generalize or stereotype an entire generation or an income level.

Diplomatic Mike
(MikefaeDundee)

Locale: Under a bush in Scotland
Wage slave on 01/20/2012 11:00:48 MST Print View

A wage slave is someone who has to work to pay the bills, right?
I didn't realise there were so many wealthy folk on here that don't work.

Richard Scruggs
(JRScruggs) - MLife

Locale: Oregon
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: How has the change been? on 01/20/2012 11:01:23 MST Print View

Brian re: "We are lead to believe that CEOs are god like talents that can never earn enough and the rest of the population are slow witted and lazy and should be happy that they have what they do. No whining allowed."

Who led you to believe that?

Doug I.
(idester) - MLife

Locale: MidAtlantic
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: How has the change been? on 01/20/2012 11:02:32 MST Print View

"But arguing with people who hold capitalism as a religion is as productive as arguing evolution with a christian."

Or arguing with someone who thinks there are pretty simple answers to a complex issue, it seems.

Then again, I'm not interested in arguing. Discussing is another matter. I'm not one of those who hold capitalism as a religion, nor do I think CEOs are god-like talents (and I think sports and entertainment 'stars' are ridiculously overpaid, but that's another discussion), but that's not really the issue. Short of revolution, the only current way to affect any real change in this country is through the ballot box. As I said before, many of the people who are economically disadvantaged, even severely so, either don't vote or vote for politicians who will ensure the current economic policies will continue, or even lead to more disparity. Paying these people more is not going to solve that issue, they'll continue to vote how they vote. I'm not making that up, it's played out in American politics for ages now.

And, actually, many of them vote against the politicians who at least try to raise the minimum wage and such, and vote for those who rail against raising it. Do you really believe the answers are simple, or are you just so angry about the current disparity that you no longer want to admit the complexity?

Nick Gatel
(ngatel) - MLife

Locale: Southern California
Re: Wage slave on 01/20/2012 11:03:44 MST Print View

"A wage slave is someone who has to work to pay the bills, right?"

Maybe, maybe not. If the wages barely cover the bare necessities to live, then it is applicable in my mind. If there is excess money left over after paying those commitments, then the money can provide one the freedom to pursue the good life.

Katharina ....
(Kat_P) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Coast
Re: Re: Wage slave on 01/20/2012 11:06:28 MST Print View

What if the expenses for the good life are so big and the family so used to it all that you better keep that job and that earning without interruption. Is that not being a wage slave as well?

a b
(Ice-axe)
Re: Wage slave on 01/20/2012 11:11:47 MST Print View

Not enough work for us today so they sent us home. Happens everytime it rains. Something about people not wanting to spend money cleaning their carpets on a rainy day!
I agree with Nick. Everything we do as individuals is by choice.
Had I seen the value in a higher education I might not be in the place I am now.
That was my choice and I am dealing with the fruit of that choice now.
Nobody else is resposible for the position I am in.
Actually I am kinda proud of myself too. I am still "afloat" yet I have spent the last three summers hiking long trails instead of working.
I am truly a lucky man to have my health; which is the greatest wealth of all.
When i do spend my money, i buy things of lasting value even if it costs more.
No complaints here.

Diplomatic Mike
(MikefaeDundee)

Locale: Under a bush in Scotland
Wage slave on 01/20/2012 11:13:08 MST Print View

Maybe it has a different meaning in American English, as it seems to be an insulting term?
I've worked all my life, and have never asked or expected anything for nothing. I have a decent life, and can't understand why, as Nick put it, he was glad to escape, as if it was a menial life.

Nick Gatel
(ngatel) - MLife

Locale: Southern California
Re: Re: Re: Wage slave on 01/20/2012 11:15:06 MST Print View

A slave has no options. They cannot change their situation. Wage slave is just slang. We all have options, it is just a matter of what each of choose to do with them.

Michael L
(mpl_35) - MLife

Locale: The Palouse
Re: How has the change been? on 01/20/2012 11:17:01 MST Print View

"I have to point out that the absence of a LOSS of members is not good evidence that this policy is successful. The explicit goal of this change was to gain revenue by increasing signups. What you would expect from this change is an increase in signups so people can sell. It would be very surprising that subscribing registered members would leave the site due to this change, especially considering many of them are "M-life" members and subscriptions are yearly."


That wasn't the original intent of the policy as I understood it from discussions that happened before its implementation.


The intent is like the OP referred to: lessen the drain on bandwidth demands. Of concern was to not drive subscribers away, but that was secondary.

Doug I.
(idester) - MLife

Locale: MidAtlantic
Re: Re: Re: Wage slave on 01/20/2012 11:17:47 MST Print View

"What if the expenses for the good life are so big and the family so used to it all that you better keep that job and that earning without interruption. Is that not being a wage slave as well?"

Yes, I would think so, but it's more often described as the 'keeping up with the Jones'' syndrome.

HK Newman
(hknewman) - MLife

Locale: Western US
Re: How has the change been? on 01/20/2012 11:17:59 MST Print View

This turned into Chaff after I posted from "forum issues", somehow (jeez) -- not playing

Edited by hknewman on 01/21/2012 12:12:28 MST.

David Thomas
(DavidinKenai) - MLife

Locale: North Woods. Far North.
perceived poverty, actual poverty on 01/20/2012 11:27:59 MST Print View

Brian and Doug: I'm with you on the wage inequalities. The people who argue we can't afford to raise the minimum wage have so much wealth they can't objectively be speaking of not being able to afford it.

I pretty much always vote against my short-term economic interests - I vote for higher taxes especially for the well off, a better safety net, higher minimum wage, more job training, etc. Mostly because it seems the right thing to do. But I think it also benefits me in the long term. I want to live in a fairer, more egalatarian country. Who is the epitome of the Walmart customer? Wouldn't that be the Walmart employee - 30 hours a week at minimum wage? They (and many businesses) seem to promote a feedback loop that spirals down instead of a positive feedback where living-wage workers have money to spend, thereby creating more business and a broader tax base.

I didn't find it on rereading, but I wondered if someone tweaked on my use of "perceived poverty". By which I meant, $20 to BPL probably gets lost in most anyone's budget for lattes, ISP fees, or eating out. Per hour spent, it's really quite, quite cheap. There might be a homeless poster logged in on a library computer, but I suspect 99+% of posters own their own computer, have a cell phone, and pay >$100/month for those combined services to say nothing of their cable TV bill. They might legitimately be struggling financially and, again, I want to see everyone with more liveable wages, but that $100-150/month does not feed or clothe them or their kids. I taught in China last July, my wife provided medical care in Zimbabwe and did research in Bangladesh - while Americans should be fairer to each other, we pretty much all have choices that 5 billion other people don't have. Yet.

Okay. I'll shut up now and go back to posting about stoves and fuels and heat exchangers. I obviously don't know how to solve BPLs problems, much less the World's, but I know exactly how many BTUs are in a pound of propane and what it feels like when my leg hairs burn off in a fuel-air explosion.

Editted to respond to Nick's, "Wage slave is just slang.": Exactly. That's how I used it. But I should remember the reaction to Seinfeld's "Soup Nazi" term which was funny in context and descriptive in an edgy way. But also offensive to some people. Doug IS a funny guy. I try to be, but often fail.

Edited by DavidinKenai on 01/20/2012 11:35:28 MST.

Gabe P
(Gabe) - MLife
wage slave on 01/20/2012 11:33:11 MST Print View

"I vote for higher taxes especially for the well off, a better safety net, higher minimum wage, more job training, etc. Mostly because it seems the right thing to do. But I think it also benefits me in the long term. I want to live in a fairer, more egalatarian country."

Wow - I sure misunderstood your original post. My bad; I'm sorry.

Brian UL
(MAYNARD76)

Locale: New England
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: How has the change been? on 01/20/2012 11:49:24 MST Print View

"Who led you to believe that?"

Milton Friedman, among others.

Richard Scruggs
(JRScruggs) - MLife

Locale: Oregon
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: How has the change been? on 01/20/2012 12:02:52 MST Print View

Are you saying that Milton (and others?) also led you to believe "the rest of the population are slow witted and lazy and should be happy that they have what they do. No whining allowed." That's something you were led to believe by Milton, too?

Which one of Milton's writings would you recommend as most clearly stating what you attribute to him -- i.e., where he led you to believe those things you describe?