Hi, I'm looking for suggestions for a winter baselayer. I'd like to take advantage of the Patagonia sale before it ends today. I've tried to love wool baselayers in warmer weather, but always seem to prefer my Cap 1 to it, maybe in winter this would be different.I really have not tried any of the heavier weight Capilene, so I'm not sure how good of a baselayer it would be. I would appreciate any suggestions you guys can give me. Thanks John

I'd say go for warmest for winter... Cap 4.

I've always used the lightest weight undies as possible. It's much easier to control body temps in cold weather removing outer layers than it is to take off your next to skin layer. I use the old Patagonia Silkweight or Wool 2 layers even in the coldest temps, which is down to about zero for me.

winter (or summer) you want the lightest weight (read breathable/quick drying) base layers

the cap 3 and 4 make decent mid layers, not good base layers- the possible exception would be non-exertion activities in the winter, think ice fishing/duck hunting/football games

I woud go for Capilene 3 or 4 also.

Edited by stephenm on 01/09/2012 07:50:03 MST.

I use lightweight polartec powerdry for winter.

I like to use a 260 weight icebreaker merino. Then I just wear a soft or hardshell layer over it depending on conditions/activity. I always like to choose outer layers with thigh zips to help regulate temps, and not second guess my warmer long underwear choice. But if it isn't too cold (30s and up,) go for a lightweight long underwear, cap 1 or merino 150.

EDIT: Almost forgot to ask, what activities are you going to be doing with said layer?

Edited by klags on 01/09/2012 12:06:19 MST.

the lightest layer you can get away with ...

then wear something like an R1 over it

you want wicking ... in winter moisture close to yr body aint fun

There's something puzzling me a little here - there seems to be an assertion that a single very thin base layer + a warm mid layer will deal with moisture better than a single monolithic base layer of the same warmth.

However its only the bit of material next to your skin that has to stay dry so this really isn't a priori obvious at all. Is there any actual evidence about this either way?
(The only thing I can think of is Buffalo which works better by itself but thats very much an extreme case.).

martin

just personal experience ... i used to use a cap 4 alone ... ive since moved onto a very light synth top and a R1 copy

i find that heavier base layers will not dry out with body heat effectively enough for you to get rid of that damp next to the skin feeling .... a lighter one will ... even sitting in a warm bar after a day out didnt get rid of the chill and dampness

also a very light base layer + r1 is much more flexible at more moderate winter temperatures ... in heavy exertion just use the light base + a wind/softshell ... and prevent sweat which is bad in winter

cap 4 is supposed to be one of the "best" winter baselayers around, and i have never had good success drying them or not feeling damp in them in the field when used as a true base ... i own 2 of them and use em mainly in the house or social situations these days

most extreme conditions. a good light wicking base layer will move moisture away from my skin and to the surface of the garment. if i'm wearing a light base layer i can always add insulation. if my base layer is too warm (and i'm sweating,which is bad) i have no practical way to deal with that problem. i for the most part do not carry multiple weights of base layers on a trip.

I go for the lightest, fastest drying base layer against my skin year round. So in Patagonia speak that would be Cap 1.

I'm not a fan of the heavier base layers. If you want insulation, use more weight efficient mid layers like a down or synthetic jacket....or even fleece if it's what you got.

Using a thin base layer gives you more layering options, which doesn't matter that much at the ski resort, but it comes it handy in the backcountry. You can avoid getting as sweaty in the first place.

Edited by dandydan on 01/09/2012 14:38:16 MST.

Martin,

It is also nice to be able to vent the mid layer to control temperature with elastic or zippers. If you have a thin base layer you can vent the mid layer and not expose alot of skin to the winter elements. On a calm winter day not a big deal but on a nasty winter day and an uphill climb venting might be needed by full expose it not a good idea.

Actually this is another thing - isn't versatility what Cap3 and the like were basically for? So you can share your added warmth between your base and mid layer, making just the base layer + windshirt by itself more likely to be viable. Obviously if you often need to go down to 'nothing' warmth wise then not a good idea :)

Going back to moisture transfer, still not really convinced. Purely in moisture transfer terms, its not obvious what a thin base layer is adding to something like a base + R1 combo. Have the R1 by itself and a large chunk of the area is direct evaporation.

Think you do want minimal surface area in contact with skin if going monolithic though. For an extreme edge case take something like Buffalo - basically pile worn next to skin. That really is incredibly effective cf sweat. (if not at all versatile!).

i think its fairly well known that a thin wicking snug base layer tends to be better at transferring moisture than a thicker or looser one ... thats my experience anyways ... and it seems to be fairly common in sports, especially ones in colder climates

its job is to transfer the moisture to the outside layers ... a single thicker layer doest not do that IMO ... once it gets wet, it tends to stay damp ... it is much easier to dry a thin damp layer than a thicker one

pile and pertex style windshirts tend to be pretty good at wicking, due to the lesser skin contact ... but sadly, this doesnt always work well with standard baselayers, the bumps on my cap4 do help a bit, but you still get that cold damp feeling

I have never heard of the buffalo clothing company. Very interesting clothing options that I think are a bit different than anything else I have seen that is claiming to really be for outdoor sports. I am going to have to look at the product line a bit more and see if I can find anything that fits a whole.

My gut 5 minute preview of the shell/pile layers you are talking about causes two initial concerns to me, and my layer style. The first is if for some reason you wet out the insulation on the duel layers you will have a harder time drying it out with the shell fabric on there no matter how breathable they claim it to be. That means you would have to remain in a wet insulation layer with no real way to push the moisture out. The way I layer if I wet out my midweight layer I can unzip my shell jacket a bit and the steam starts rolling out. 20 minutes of controlled exercise and it is dry.

My second concern is when I find myself getting very hot I will often push my base layer and midlayer sleeves up over my elbows and just leave my shell down to protect from wind. That lets off alot of heat and moisture without wetting any insulation. I wouldn't be able to do that in these duel layers.

PS I agree with eric about the thin layers wicking better. A simple test is to take a light weight base, mid weight base, and heavier expedition weight base (which I use as a mid layer) on a brisk 20 minute walk/job at reasonable temps with a light shell overtop. When you get back you will clearly see which layer has the least built up moisture.

Edited by earn_my_turns on 01/09/2012 17:06:18 MST.

The theory goes that a thin baselayer will hold water close to the body, where it's evaporated relatively quickly by your bodyheat. A thick wicking layer will transfer the water to its surface, but as Eric points out it still won't exit your clothing until it evaporates unless you're wearing something like Buffalo.

In practise I quite like Capilene 3. If I'm sweating that much I take something off, and it's much easier to vent a single layer than two layers, especially because you rarely get thin baselayers with zip-necks. (Apparently people only get warm in cold weather...) I also like my Patagonia 150gsm merino zip-neck in winter, but it's full of holes.

I might feel differently if I were a climber and couldn't layer up and down as easily.

Edited by jamougha on 01/09/2012 18:27:17 MST.

I think eric posted this up a couple of winters back, it's a good read on the dynamics of what's going in a high exertion, cold environment

the "key" is to not get too wet, that starts w/ a thin, close fitting base layer

http://www.andy-kirkpatrick.com/articles/view/the_art_of_not_suffering

Thank You all for your advice. After reading all of your responses, I decided to stick to Cap 1 year round. After about 15 years of use,my old set of Cap 1 could use replacing. Thanks again John

Just a side note, but surely Cap2 is meant to be Pati's thin 'layering' fabric? I'd have thought that the very open weave would easily do enough to outweigh the small weight difference over Cap1.

Pertex/Pile actually meant for use in UK conditions and stays pretty warm even when totally saturated. (jumping in frozen lakes?!) Pile doesn't really collapse/hold moisture so you just need to keep the tips of the pile dry with body heat. There's a very good article by CT on here explaining how it works.

Not that I'm advocating it per se (def not perfect) but it is certainly an intriguing data point :)

I'd have thought that something like R1 would have something of the same effect going on if used as a base layer.