I am using my gear extensively staying about 250 nights and more per year outside in a tent. I have four WM down sleeping bags for all seasons but all of them start to show the same problem: The down clumps together and creates "holes" in the insulation reducing its warming capacity dramatically. This especially concerns my default sleeping bag, the WM Ultralite which I have probably used almost 900 nights within a 7 year period.

I know that these clumps are usually created by body oils and have therefore washed the sleeping bag several times. I think I have done everything right from using down soap, extensive rinsing and hour long drying in a commercial dryer. After washing the bag the loft usually comes back a bit, but after a week of use or so the down starts clumping again. The time span between good loft after washing and clumping seems to get shorter every time. I have washed that bag about 4 or 5 times now.

I am at the end of my wits now and start to think that after 900 nights of use the bag is at its end of life. Unfortunately, I could not find much about the life expectancy of down sleeping bags. Every source says that down sleeping bags are good for more than 10 years of use but I am afraid that this does not include extensive use like mine. Rather than talking about years of normal use I would like to find out how many nights of use a sleeping bag can survive without serious damage.

Any ideas or input on that topic?

I have even considered contacting WM directly to find out what they have to say on that topic, but I could not find any contact mail address or phone number on their website.

Thanks for any ideas,
Christine

You might look into shipping the bag(s) off to Rainy Pass in Seattle for a professional cleaning & re-lofting. They have (reportedly) special equipment to do this sort of thing. I can attest that they are not cheap, but they did an excellent repair job and cleaning on a Montbell bag of mine... Just an option to consider. Give them a call and ask their advice. That won't cost a thing.

http://rainypass.com/

Edit: just noticed you are in Germany... Advice from a professional down cleaning company at this time would probably be the best option...

Edited by risingsun on 01/07/2012 16:57:24 MST.

I have already had this sleeping bag at a professional cleaner - and this is not cheap in Germany either... But the result was the same: It was fine for a couple of weeks and then the clumping came back.

I don't want to be flogging a dead horse and invest more money into dry cleaning or washing a bag that is basically dead... therefore my question.

Christine,

Not sure if this information is up-to-date:

Western Mountaineering
1025 South 5th Street
San Jose, CA 95112
TEL  408.287.8944
FAX  408.287.8946


Also, you might look up Rainy Pass's phone number in the link provided in the last post and talk to them. They are very helpful.

Nicks info is the same I have, right out of their catalog. I think the latest update is now three years old, though. Good Luck Christine! But after 7 years @900 nights does not sound like an excessive amount, though it is a lot.

It does sound like something is wearing out prematurely and/or was incorrectly washed at one time or another. Call Western Mountaineering. Explain the problem and answer their questions. Chances are they will tell you to wash the bag more frequently, but that is really a guess.

Even if you convince them the loft is degraded, they will likely offer to reloft it rather inexpensivly compared to the cost of a new bag, even if they determine there is no problem. WM has a lifetime guarentee and a reputation to uphold. Part of what you, the customer, has paid for.

Edited by jamesdmarco on 01/07/2012 18:17:04 MST.

A little math could help here; 900 nights out and 5 washings = 1/2 year continuous use per washing.

also how has it been stuffed, how small, how many times? Some folks use compressor sacks, which really isnt good.

A list of German Dealers from Western's website;

http://www.westernmountaineering.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=dealers.int-dealers&country=Germany&step=3

and Western's phone number

Edited by wildlife on 01/07/2012 20:08:00 MST.

I think Dan is onto something. If you only wash it every almost 200 days (ie 1/2 a year) of continuous use I'm sure it's loaded with oils. Most likely you'll need to run it through several washings to FULLY remove all the body oils and dirt. As it is you may only remove a small fraction which is enough to restore the appearance of full loft, but not enough to thoroughly clean all of the clusters.

Also if you're using a compression sack most of the time, it's likely you've crushed the clusters enough to fully degrade the down.

Edited by upalachango on 01/07/2012 20:59:33 MST.

Yup. Wash it a bunch more times (in a row) and see what happens, or get a pro cleaning. This is most likely the whole problem. That is a super light washing schedule. I wash my down stuff about every 14-30 days of usage, which is when I start to notice a loss of loft. Doesn't seem to hurt it.

If the down had become damaged, I don't think you'd see it puffing up temporarily after a wash.

That said, sweat is somewhat acidic. I would not let it sit inside down clusters without washing for so long, as it is likely significantly more damaging to leave it there than to wash it out.

I never use compression sacks for storing sleeping bags. When not in use they are stored in a huge storage bag, and when on the trail I use the stuff sack provided by WM or something similarly big.

I will try and call WM to say what they have to say. I will try to do some more washing - it can't hurt now: If the bag is "dead" already, more washing won't hurt.

Has anyone tried to dry the bag without a dryer by just letting it dry in the air for a couple of days? I am a bit reluctant to invest a lot of money and time (this takes up to 4 hours in the laundromat) again into that....

Christine

Hi Christine

> Has anyone tried to dry the bag without a dryer by just letting it dry in the air for a couple of days?
Works well in the Australian summer! I have just washed one of my old bags and air dried it.

Down soap ... Hum. Have you tried Atsko Sports Wash? I suggest it quite seriously. That's what we always use.

You know, if it starts clumping up again rather quickly, that does suggest the body oils were not washed out very well.

Cheers

Christine,
Make sure to clean any washer you use fairly thouroughly. The residual detergents in commercial washers can start causing problems with down. If you cannot find a clean one, a good rinse with lots of water...especially the soap bin, may work to clear any detergents/strong soaps out of the machine.

Yeah, more washing would be my first guess. Generally, washing does not hurt down provided the soap does not strip the lanolin like oils out of the clusters. A very mild soap, downwash, woolite, and the like will work. Water does the majority of the washing. So, I usually use 1/2-1/4 as much soap as needed. I usually recommend 1/2 for the uninitiated. In this case, I think I would do it twice, with a normal rinse cyle between, then an extra wash cycle(no soap) with extra rinse. IE wash it three times: twice with soap, one with just plain water. Dry it thuroughly with 2-4 tennis balls. As you say, if it is already degraded, no harm done. If it is good, but oily, this should restore it.

If it comes back plan on washing it every 14-21 days with down wash. Again about 1/3 as much down wash as is recomended. An extra rinse wash to insure thourough rinsing. Good down, 800fp, requires a bit more cleaning to maintain the higher level of performance than cheaper 600fp down. It will flatten out/clump quicker with body oils and sweat than cheaper down. Note that eventually all soaps will degrade down's performance. So, use enough, but don't over do the soap. Even plain water will eventually degrade down, but this will take many more years than you have on your bag.

Unfortunatly, if any prior washings were done with any detergent, or the bag was dry cleaned (some of the solvents are fairly harsh with down,) it *might* be too late to help the bag. Clumping is also a sign of degraded down due to incorrect laundering. But, as others have said, it should not loft back if it had been badly degraded already, at least not consistently.

I now use Atsko Sport Wash exclusively for my laundry at home. It seemed to take 3-4 loads to purge the deposits left by the Tide I'd used for years. So, if you are going to use a commercial machine, I would suggest making it a long day at the laundromat and doing a load of towels, then a load of sheets, and then a load of socks and blue jeans, etc. before you wash your sleeping bag. Get that laundromat washer very clean first.

What happens if Lanolin is washed out of down?

Is it possible to restore the Lanolin?

Just clarifying here, but there is no Lanolin in down. Not sure what those oils are called, but Lanolin is exclusive to wool.
And no, as far as I know the oils on down cannot be restored once they have been washed out.

"And no, as far as I know the oils on down cannot be restored once they have been washed out."

Which sounds like the case here. 7 years of continuous use and multiple washings sounds like a great life cycle for a bag to me.

She posted she has four sleeping bags, to be used over the 250 nights per year.

That would be about 60+ nights per year each bag.

The one bag that is the Default bag with the most use is the problem. Mybe spread the use out more.

Edited by mike220 on 01/08/2012 08:35:51 MST.

This has me thinking about preventative measures. Is the moral of the story here to use a liner as often as possible to reduce the number of washes needed? No compression sacks? I can't imagine not using a compression sack, just from a packing perspective.

Once you find a fix for the clumping problem consider always wearing long underwear in the bag to mitigate body oils passing into the down.

But down itself has natural oils that help it retain its loft. Maybe there is a special rinse that can replace the natural waterfowl oils. Ask the professional cleaners or Western Mountaineering about a special rinse solution.