When you time is up, it's up. No matter if you are 7 or 70. People die tragic, bizarre deaths. I hope to go in my sleep. Be alert, mindful and try to use common sense. But nobody gets out of here alive.

>"I hope to go in my sleep."

Unlike your passenger who will be screaming and grasping the dashboard?

"...It seems like people are forgetting that NOLS is a school."

Is somebody forgetting that?

"Be alert, mindful and try to use common sense. But nobody gets out of here alive."

There you go.

I've been thinking about why people are so scared of bears compared to other things much more likely to kill them like lightning etc.
I think its because bears are so unpredictable. You're only in danger of drowning near water and lightning is only a danger at specific times. Bears may be less of a threat statistically but they are the only threat thats always present (at least potentially).


My main question relating to NOLs is this. Why given the potential liablity of minors getting hurt on a NOLS trip did they not give everyone bear spray? It just seems like a no brainer way to cover your backside from lawyers. Also if bearspray isn't available why bother with it? If they carried the stuff someone should hav expained that you only have seconds to respond to a bear and it better be handy.

Edit - Good point that we've all made mistakes. Cloest I came to dying in the backpacking had nothing to do with bears. I almost drown on a really, really, really stupid kayaking fiasco in CA. Did I mention we were stupid?

Edited by Cameron on 01/05/2012 19:43:29 MST.

When that event first happened, I remember reading that the kids did have bear spray but they got trampled and mauled before they could pull it out and use it.

"I hope to go in my sleep."

Yeah, I'd like to die during sex too......

When I was in Wrangell-St Elias in 2009, I forgot to pick up bear spray at REI before we left Anchorage, but a couple guys had pistols, one only a 38, so he would have only made ole man griz mad. Six in our group, we got a little nervous at the junction of Tumble Creek and Jacksina Creek when we found an area in the willows with multiple piles of scat. Could not tell if griz or bear, no pepper spray or bear bells present.
Duane

"I've been thinking about why people are so scared of bears compared to other things much more likely to kill them like lightning etc. I think its because bears are so unpredictable."

I dunno. It might be the thought of being eaten alive and torn the shreds by a 500lb animal with huge teeth and claws. lol. Sounds like agony...Us humans are just afraid of animals. Snakes, spiders, sharks, dogs, mice etc. I think we're just programmed that way.

Ryan

Edited by ViolentGreen on 01/05/2012 19:52:24 MST.

Shooting a bear with a 38 is a bad idea.
Getting your friend to shoot a bear with a 38 is a good idea
Step 1 - Identify bear as threat
Step 2 - Instruct gullible friend to stand in front of you and shoot bear with 38
Step 3 - Run while bear mauls friend:)

"I dunno. It might be the thought of being eaten alive and torn the shreds by a 500lb animal with huge teeth and claws. lol...Us humans are just afraid of animals. Snakes, spiders, sharks,etc. I think we're just programmed that way."

Well that to Ryan. Claws sound a lot more painful than a lightning bolt I must admit. Also maybe an inborn survival instinct?

>"I've been thinking about why people are so scared of bears compared to other things much more likely to kill them like lightning etc.
I think its because bears are so unpredictable."

Lighting is pretty unpredictable, too. So are other drivers on the road. But I think you're on to something.

I think a lot of it is fear of the unknown, or more accurately, anxiety about the unfamiliar. Look at the posters who are the calmest about bears - the guys who hike in grizzly country. I'm not complicant, but I don't fret over it either. I think more carefully about ice on the roads than bear feeding and denning seasons.

And part of it is "lack of perceived control". Which is sort of like being unpredictable. You know bad things can happen while driving but you imagine your driving skills will save you. Whereas you have less sense of your ability to bring a 747 in for safe landing (especially now that there's a locked cockpit door). And if the wings come off, you're pooched and you have no control over your fate. You can't even imagine how you'd have any control.

Bears are unpredictable and seemingly outside your control.

But I'd point out that group size (not withstanding this NOLS incident) and noise ARE under your control. And, even including this incident, there haven't been FATAL incidents in large groups. Maybe that's why you 70 Japanese hiking together (to cross-post an incident from another thread).

Good points David. I agree you think you're in control of your car (or kayak or whatever) and thats why you feel safer. That actually might make these activities more dangerous for a lot of people.
I'd also noticed the Alaskans seemed pretty chill about bears overall.

Logic dictates that in grizzly country, EVERY member of the party needs to carry their own bear spray. It's not a bad idea for Black Bear country either, but admittedly, the risk of encountering an aggressive black bear is far less than for a grizzly.

Why all that redundancy instead of having only a few carry spray, you ask? Whatever happened to sharing gear weight?

Well first, the group is not always going to be together. Individuals will separate from the group for various reasons at various times, and even if they don't go far or for long, they are away from the relative safety of numbers and so being vulnerable, need their own protection.

Second, in the case of an incident - like this one - where there apparently was not time for the lead hiker to draw his spray (even if he had had it), at least one or more of the others would have and could use it to deter the attack.

Third, No battle plan ever survives first contact with the enemy. Someone always seems to fail to "get the memo" - in this case, to keep their spray handy AT ALL TIMES - and just stuffs it someplace where they can't get at it in time when it's needed.

It's your a$$; cover it the way you want. But if you're going with me, you'll carry bear spray, just like me.

We can debate ad nauseum about the probable effectiveness of properly utilized bear spray in detering an attack, but the fact remains that bear spray not carried or not available will NOT be used and will absolutely, positively NOT deter anything

David--I didn't really have you in mind for my post. I, like you, suspect that if I had been on that hike things might have gone down just about the way that they did.

Except I would probably have been further back in the pack!

I will go with the 'I was an idiot when...'

On the BPL course I took, I lost the Bear Spray I had been issued by Ryan and the Staff crossing a fence because I didn't know to use a (or two) Safety Pins to secure it to my pack...

I wasn't too worried about it until we made camp on day two and I was heading to the, uh hem, bathroom; when one of my classmates said, "Don't get eaten by a grizzly. It is going to be really tough to run with your pants around your knees!"

I turned heal right to him and said, my voice cracking, "Yeah, uh, can I borrow your spray for a few minutes!?!?!?".

He, being the gruff old codger he was, grunted and handed it to me.

"Bears are unpredictable and seemingly outside your control."

Not to mention bigger, stronger, faster, meaner. No matter how unlikely that possibility may be, if one decides to come after you you've got a serious problem, and I think we all realize that instinctively.

"Yeah, I'd like to die during sex too......"

Maybe just after?

""Yeah, I'd like to die during sex too......"

"Maybe just after?"

30 or 40 seconds just isn't going to make that much of a difference.....

So Doug. You're single. Huh?

Luke, I was the second oldest and had the lightest pack, best shape too I believe. You are right, shooters to the front, don't miss.

Good point also about being spread out, from day one, we did not always travel with at least one other sole close by. The only day we were close together and in willows, was the next to last day out. The first day I was out front of everyone by over a quarter to half a mile, but I had a radio. Listen for my scream. :)
Duane