+1 Eugene. Horse owners shouldn't get a free pass to ruin the backcountry. Approaching a horse camp makes picking up a discarded Snickers wrapper seem futile.

>Because dogs are pack animals they will over extend themselves to keep up with you."

Reading this gave me an idea to suggest to the OP:

Dog mushers have some of the same issues, magnified many times. 16 dogs, bitter cold, sometimes too hot (for their extreme exertion level), dehydration, infectious diseases; all while running 1,100 miles in 2 weeks. I know 7 Iditarod mushers and they are all highly attuned to these issues.

And it's not just the 1,100 miles in March. It's also 2,000+ training miles on each dog during the winter. And even will all that prep and knowledge and care, half the dogs get dropped and flown back. Okay, it's a race and "you're only as fast as your slowest dog" so they drop dogs early and often. But still, they start with their best 16 out of 40 to 200 dogs in their kennel.

Get a book on dog mushing. It will cover foot care, health, nutrition, booties, ice and snow travel, run/rest cycles, etc, etc.

And have a perfect "heal", "come" and "leave it" before you start. I mean rock-solid on those, "leave it" that works for a pound of cheese or a cat. "Heal" past a yelling person. "Come" even from a food bowl. For your sake, your dog's sake, and all the other hikers on the trail.

And despite all the issues on the PCT, I'd be more worried about issues south of the border.

+2 Eugene, on horses being a pain. And what is it about burro p1ss that inspires all the others to p1ss in the same spot and make a fly-ridden, stinky mud puddle all across the trail? Grrr.

Why allow 1500-pound horses that carry one person when a 20-pound mountain bike can do that same thing? With the horse crap, p1ss, and while the MBer might not always yield, he COULD, the horsepacker might not have that control.

Any creatures, 2- or 4-legged that can't stand patiently by the side of the trail to let others pass should stay on private land, IMNSHO.

I like the list of things that annoy me :)

However, as much as I don't always care for horses on the trail , historically they were the mode of transportation. I think people get way to touchy on all this. First, even if no one ever took a dog or a horse in the wilderness, there will still be Deer and Elk droppings, Bear Scat, Coyote crap, perhaps goat or sheep. So the crap is part of the wilderness experience. A herd of Elk will tear up a trail as bad as horses. If you want to avoid horses, then go off trail and in places they can not go, but you will likely run into Elk or Bear scat then. Bear piles can be a lot messier than a horse pile.

As for dogs, I have not met a younger dog (less than 8) that could not do 20 mile days everyday, if they were in shape. I even took a mini weenie on 20 mile days, up 13ers and such and she loved it. You think I could keep her at home, when I was getting my hiking stuff ready ? No way. My dogs never wear booties (does a coyote or wolf ?) and often travel on snow / ice / talus and scree (as do coyotes and wolves). They are plenty capable creatures. I've had a dog get sick once from drinking from a pond by mine tailings, but it puked and felt better later.

Protecting wildlife , putting a canine on a leash is not protecting them, it's giving them a false sense of security. Animals have predators, it's natural. The distinction between a wolf, coyote and house pet is small, in fact my youngest Border Collie is part Coyote.

A leash is a good idea, when around other folks that may not be dog lovers. And in the NPS rules are what they are. Add to my list of things that annoy me: An obsession with rules :)

Dog feet can indeed by injured by walking on rough terrain. I had a coonhound that could
keep up on a 25 mile mountainbike ride on trails and be ready for more, but let her walk over High Sierra Granite or Oregon Lava for a few days, and she would wear her toenails to the quick and beyond and blister and tear her pads. A few miles of running downhill on pavement keeping up with a Mtn Bike would do the same. Canvas boots taped on with athletic
tape was all it took for prevention.

Dogs go snow blind too.

Kevin, your information is rather limited.

Horses are only short term historical. They were introduced by the Spanish in the 1500s and only really gained popularity in the 1800s. Before that it had been thousands of years since there were wild horses roaming the Americas. Theres some old supposedly native American saying of "for bring us the horse, we can almost forgive the whiteman for bringing us firewater" which illustrates just how not historical the horse is. Also the issue is a matter of density. Horse teams (how often do you see a single horse rider in the backcountry?) are confined to a single trail that is also shared by hikers. The horse scat is concentrated on that one by way. Also horses wear steel plates on their feet, which as far as I know, no wild animal does the same. So trying to even claim that horses have similar effects as wild animals is laughable.

The same is true of dogs, I agree that most dogs in shape are actually great hiking partners than can keep up (rhodesians will probably outperform even the best hikers at that). But still they aren't that reminiscent of wild canids. They may have the same genetic code as wolves but they're bred for an entirely different temperament. Barking is a clear sign of tameness (look up russian foxes that bark). Your entire bit about putting dogs on a leash is hard to follow due to the grammar, I'm not sure if you're saying that dogs are not protected or wildlife is not protected, but either way it's a thin thread. You're applying humanistic thought processes (sense of security) to instinctual behavior which doesn't really fly in the scientific world.

Cows do more damage to the PCT then horse and dogs combined, especially to the water.

There is a room over on the Whiteblaze.com site dedicated to dogs on the Trail. There seems to be more folks that do the AT than the PCT, fewer restricted areas and more overall hikers. I would never take a dog myself but I can see the desire to do so. My biggest concern would actually be the Sierra stream crossings. Depending on the conditions it's a big enough chore to get yourself safely across without worrying about a dog. Whatever you do it will work out.

There are still wild horse within 100 miles of where I am, and yes I agree it's only been since the 1600's or so for domestic horses, but it was still a historical way of travel on our lands. I personally don't like how horses tear things up, but it doesn't bother me enough to complain and perhaps people that would not get a chance to enjoy the wilderness on foot, get to enjoy it without an ATV so I'm cool with it. A herd of Elk will tear things up as bad if not worse than a couple horses period. I've also seen bear scat, every 50 feet for a couple miles on a mountain side. Face it, there's crap in the woods, in the real woods.

As for leashes, I don't think we are doing the animals a favor. Almost all animals have predators (deer for example), to leash the dogs up so they do not chase wildlife is to make the animals think a dog is not harmful to them providing a false sense of security to the animal. It's no different than if we walked in the woods, and all predators were on a leash, we would have a false sense of security. Now, I don't agree that dogs should just chase anything, but a well behaved dog is fine off leash. I've sat an observed 50 head of Elk from 100 yards with my dogs at my side.

If you crave more solitude, less horses or less dogs, it's pretty easy to find just get off the main trails, bushwhack, follow game trails etc. When I'm out, and feeling non social, I just go off trail. My dogs have always been fine, following me over whatever mountain, canyons or off trail route I decide to go. Yes they step on my snowshoes when I'm breaking trail in deep snow, but they are happy to go and never show any signs of distress. To say a dog can't do things a human can, is silly. Sure certain breeds are better suited for certain things, but almost any good mountain dog is pretty capable with a little bit of break in period.

We can agree to disagree, but I stand by my thoughts on the subject.

Thanks for all the info, my dog has absolutely no problem in snow with his ideterod booties. The comments left here have influenced me to consider leaving him with my mother and father for the sierras. I live in Southern Oregon currently and my dog has been on a hike or an overnight backpacking trip every single day for the last seven months, he is 14 months old now. I have done countless 25 mile days with him and he is sitting at camp with a stick in his mouth ready for fetch while we setup our tarp every time. I cannot out hike my dog even when we are bushwhacking through miles of waist high thorn brush and hopping fences as we were last night/this morning, both of witch are hard for dogs.
For the people who claim a dog is not meant as a pack animal or for hiking etc. Many dogs are bred for a specific purpose. Rottweiler's for example are called "butchers dogs" because when the Romans brought Mastiffs to the rest of Europe, Rottweiler's were used specifically for hauling the carts of meat for butchers. Husky's for pulling sleds etc.
The reason I am perhaps more staunch than most on taking my dog on the PCT is because my Father took the Father of my dog on the PCT a few years ago and had a blast.
From what I have read about South America it seems you just need to carry certain papers stating your dog has had its various shots as well as get a letter from the embassy in D.C which does not sound particularly hard. Keep the comments coming!
Additionally on a gear related note. I'm currently running a layer system of Wool long underwear, wool sweater,down vest and my out wind/rain shell. I'm looking for a new layer to replace the sweater that would be either much warmer or much more versatile in multiple climates. Any help?

Kevin

The wild horses were introduced. You understand, yes?

Aske Mesa verde rangers what they think of horses. They are an invasive species that destroys natural habitat.

You keep throwing out examples like elk. Elk herds on trails are lot less common then a pack train. Elk live off the land. The pack horses can't.

And your leash argument in quite frankly inane. The natural animals aren't going to get a false sense of security from leashed dogs. We have to put up with horses but I wish we didn't. I shouldn't have to go hike of trail to avoid your dogs if they are banned in a particular area. I pick trails often that ban dogs and horses particularly because they do ban them.

And you continue to ignore the damage your dogs do. They can introduce non native parasites and diseases. Not a good thing just so you can hike with a dog.

Clint, as for that last part about a recommendation to replace the wool sweater I can recommend something similar to my Marmot Driclime windshirt.
I used it for the whole PCT and it was my sole insulation layer for all of California and Oregon until i bought a Patagonia down sweater (on sale Eric!) in Hood River Oregon at the Kayak Shed.
The Marmot Driclime windshirt has a micro weight fleece type of liner with a DWR nylon outer shell.
It is not water proof, though when kept clean, it sheds light rain for a time.
The reason I love this type of windshirt is that it can get soaked from rain or sweat but blunt the wind, remain somewhat warm, and dry out very quickly.
There are a lot of other similar garments out there to choose from but i can only recommend the Marmot Windshirt since i actually used it for all of the PCT and CDT.
One other cool design feature are the over length arms. The arms are long enough to pull the sleeves over your hands when your hands are cold.
Not sure what they are like these days but mine is 4 years old and has survived 2 long distance hikes and is still in perfect condition. No wear under the shoulder straps, zippers still work, DWR still sheds a bit of drizzle etc.
Of course, I have no idea if the windshirt would function any better or be lighter than your wool sweater. My Marmot is 11 ounces so it is by no means a lightweight garment by todays standards.
You might be just as well served by your sweater. (I am a huge fan of wool clothing too!)

Edited by Ice-axe on 01/07/2012 21:55:13 MST.

Regarding the original posters original questions:
I believe any good dog that has been prepared would be happy to go on your trip, as long as you take care of the same issues you yourself will encounter ( food, water, first aid). I think most people that do not have an ultra endurance background will have a hard time out hiking the dog. Regarding the legality, I can not condone you breaking the law, however it has been done. Perhaps a shuttle or a reroute in certain areas.

Regarding horses:
Some folks have strong feelings one way or the other, I myself do not. If you do not wish to see horses out on trails then I urge you to contact the proper officials to try and get them removed. I do, however urge caution, because it will impact many guides and outfitters, that responsibly provide a lot of free services to the forest service (maintaining trails). There may also be a time in your life, when you wish they were allowed, perhaps it is so your parents could enjoy your favorite spot, even though they are not capable of getting there on their own power. Perhaps you decide to adopt a more hunter gatherer or 100 mile type of diet, and believe eating Elk is in fact greener and more humane than supporting the commercial food system. If that is how you feel, then work with proper officials.

Regarding co-mingling of species:
As stated earlier, my youngest border collie is in fact part coyote, bought from a working ranch. I've seen almost every species (except mountain goats) that is in nearby wilderness areas near established housing and towns at certain times. If dogs, or whatever were not allowed on NF lands, there would still be co-mingling.

Regards
Kevin

I am unable to find information on whether or not dogs are allowed in Los Glaciares National Park, does anyone know whether or not they are?

You might look into seeing what it takes to qualify your dog as a service dog, becareful though because there are scammers out there who will take you for a few hundred hundred dollars and it's not legitimate qualifications.

As for the all important booties. I live in Hawaii where I've been on that glass-sharp volcanic terrain and felt terrible one day and not realizing that after only an hour my dogs paws were damaged. She was unable to walk for two days. Now she wears booties, muttluks. Bring extra because they tend to loose them .... on purpose. :)

I've given some thought to food. Those real chicken strips may pack more protein vs weight option than dog food You would have to do the math for what your dog can live on. I seem to remember a 4 lb bag would last just over a week for my mid-sized dog. There is freeze-dried meat but that would be expensive.

That said. I'm leaving my dog with foster care for the newly officially opened trail that spans both islands of New Zealand. ( Te Araroa pathway) There are fragile eco-systems and a protected critter that have been known to die of fright from dogs approaching them. So sound reasons why there are no dogs allowed.

All the best. Jane

@mpl_35 "And you continue to ignore the damage your dogs do. They can introduce non native parasites and diseases. Not a good thing just so you can hike with a dog."


What damage are dogs doing? (Not the theoretical issues in your second sentence, since you are saying it as a statement that dogs ARE doing damage and we dog owners are ignoring it.) My dogs are on a leash, vaccinated, less impactful on a trail than my trailrunners, and their excrement buried just like mine. I've seen humans do FAR more damage in the backcountry than dogs could ever do.

As far as the theoretical ones, can you site examples? A well cared for dog doesn't have worms, fleas, mites, parvo, etc. And is more likely to catch lepto than cause it. In theory, humans could also introduce parasites and diseases. Will you stay out of the backcountry to make sure it doesn't happen? You will if you believe what you've stated above. It's not a good thing to risk the wildlife, no matter how small, just so you can go for a hike, right?

Edited by rlnunix on 01/13/2012 19:05:39 MST.

Exactly Randy, a well trained and well cared for dog with a responsible owner will leave no more impact than most thru-hikers. As far as service dogs, you purchase at for 250.00$ from service dogs of America. You could technically have no disability(say you have a hearing issue or something) and with no special training for your dog and be a service dog under the ADA act. Under this act service dogs are allowed in any national park. Not saying that I am exploiting this because I am not, it is merely available.

When it comes to service dog info, have a look at sitstay.com It's much less money ... however I haven't fully researched it. Hawaii with all of its aloha alive and well can also be a tough place. Even though I'm in the more invisible auntie catagory, my incredibly friendly and spoiled girl dog (always on a leash in public areas) has, I know, kept trouble at bay. (ridgeback heeler mix) According to this site (sitstay) and related links the laws regarding service dogs appears to be more broad than one might think ... Including rationale being a private issue. I'm in the process of checking it out myself so it may take a more incisive look. Hawaii island is only missing two of the planets possible eco systems so it's a great place to explore but I also consider my safety.

My dog though is highly supervised. I'm in no way naive about the potential unpredictability of any dog regardless of breed or nature. To be cavalier about a dog in public areas can make things more difficult for other dog owners. There are little kids or older people that can be knocked off balance and those simply afraid of dogs. I live in a rural area miles from any town and yet there are small children and frail folks fairly nearby. There are also wild boars that pose a real threat to dogs..... All like potentialities on populated trails. I have a friend whose brother years ago had his dog in a campground. A family came by and a little boy pretended to eat out of the dogs dish. Ouch! Well needlesstosay that moment changed the entire arc of his life financially. So my take on dogs in public areas is absolute responsibility and supervision and attention to their well being and safety in the woods.

I met a couple hiking the Colorado Trail with their dog. They had problems because over time the booties would chaff their dog's ankles at the top of the booty. They'd tried everything and eventually resorted to putting duck tape on the dogs paws (didn't sound good to me but they said it worked).
Also I'd make sure your dog has rabies shots before going to South Americaa.

Yeah you cant leave booties on all day and you don't need to. I usually do 1 out of every 4 hours he wears his booties. In snow he always wears them but that's not rough on the paws or the booties when it is only snow.