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Alan Bradley
(ahbradley)
MYOG is MYOG not commercial on 01/08/2012 06:15:17 MST Print View

If (as stated on other threads) Trail Designs don't mind people making their own homemade cones (frustums to be correct) for personal use (i.e non-commercial use) then what is the point of getting annoyed on their behalf? If they're happy then I don't think accusing MYOGers of stealing is either helpful or nice.


The general ethos of most cottage manufacturers has always seemed to be that when someone posted a "here is my MYOG version of said companies", eg a tent, for personal use, general congratulations are offered. Some companies even post make your own instructions.

About the name caldura clone Rand (Lindsly) said
" the community has adopted the adorable label "Caldera CLONE" to refer to these DIY activities. While still a violation of the trademark, it at least helps folks understand that they are not getting a real Caldera Cone but something else." Note the word adorable.


NB I did mention conic stove windshields existing before the caldera cone although they weren't ultra lightweight.

Edited by ahbradley on 01/08/2012 06:36:31 MST.

Michael L
(mpl_35) - MLife

Locale: The Palouse
Re: MYOG is MYOG not commercial on 01/08/2012 11:03:08 MST Print View

So rand, what do you think of someone aiding and encouraging people to copy and steal your design?

Are you "happy" people are ripping off your patent?


Adam I read that adorable quote as much less than a ringing endorsent of said theft. As in well at least they are admitting they are ripping off our patent. Since we can't really stop it, well that is better than nothing..,

Ken Thompson
(kthompson) - MLife

Locale: Behind the Redwood Curtain
Re: Re: on 01/08/2012 12:10:46 MST Print View

MYOG is MYOG not commercial

Hence the YO

Edited by kthompson on 01/08/2012 12:11:31 MST.

Nick Gatel
(ngatel) - MLife

Locale: Southern California
Re: Re: MYOG is MYOG not commercial on 01/08/2012 12:25:25 MST Print View

"So rand, what do you think of someone aiding and encouraging people to copy and steal your design?

Are you "happy" people are ripping off your patent?"

----------------------

This is kind of an unfair question. Of course he is probably not happy about it. But answering the question here may not be a "win-win" situation. Instead of putting the onus on Rand, it should be on those who steal, whether it be a legal, moral or ethical issue. For me it is so obvious that I can't believe it happens.

If Trail Designs wanted people to copy their design they would post instructions on their Website. I think that Gossamer Gear and Tarptent did this with a couple of obsolete products.

And if one is smart enough and willing to risk the time and capital, build a better system that does not infringe on the patent and go into business yourself.

If someone wants to rip-off another's design then keep it to yourself. I am shocked that some people see no problem in stealing Tyvek envelopes or condiments among other things from companies.

Michael L
(mpl_35) - MLife

Locale: The Palouse
Re: Re: Re: MYOG is MYOG not commercial on 01/08/2012 12:55:18 MST Print View

I agree nick. I just find it odd that somebody would act like they are happy about it.

Probly lose lose alright....

Lyan Jordan
(redmonk)

Locale: Greater Yellowstone Ecosystem
My Caldera Clone on 01/08/2012 12:56:37 MST Print View

People are allowed to make anything they have the ability to make.

Patents don't come into play until you try to distribute what you make.

Nick Gatel
(ngatel) - MLife

Locale: Southern California
Re: My Caldera Clone on 01/08/2012 13:08:21 MST Print View

"People are allowed to make anything they have the ability to make.

Patents don't come into play until you try to distribute what you make."

--------

I am not an attorney, but that does not jive with the quote posted earlier from the law.

However, I don't think anyone cares if a person builds a Caldera clone at home and keeps it to themselves.

I see a problem when the DIY project is posted, which encourages people to do the same.

Another question may be whether or not the BPL moderators have a responsibility to monitor these kinds of postings?

Michael L
(mpl_35) - MLife

Locale: The Palouse
Re: My Caldera Clone on 01/08/2012 13:16:49 MST Print View

Not really Cameron.

James Marco
(jamesdmarco) - MLife

Locale: Finger Lakes
Re: Re: Re: MYOG is MYOG not commercial on 01/08/2012 13:24:30 MST Print View

Nick,
Privacy is privacy. What you do in your own home is beyond question without a court order. People are allowed to feel differently, indeed, activly encouraged to think for themselves. Morality? Ask Clinton. Ethics? Ask our lawers. 'Nuff said. This is way off topic.

Alan Bradley
(ahbradley)
Other countries on 01/08/2012 13:44:18 MST Print View

Again in most non-USA countries patents dont cover MYOG.

I wonder if the USA coverage was unintentional.

Posters are behaving as if a company has been set up to compete against Trail Designs, only MYOG has been discussed, in a MYOG forum:


You might as well object to all MYOG of commercially available items, as they may well be replacing a purchase.

Some homemade frustum windshield makers, like me, will already have bought a Trail Designs cone: howevwe, if somehow prevented from such MYOG, I suspect most would/could find a different solution: eg conic pot and cylinder windshield or cylinder windshield and trangia style overlapping lid.

A frustum (truncated cone) windshield is a simple idea: if the usual simple foil cylinder windshield based stove was patented would MYOG cylinder windscreens be frowned upon: I don't think so, that would see unreasonable.


Nevertheless, it seems a pity to get upset by MYOG on a MYOG forum.

Edited by ahbradley on 01/08/2012 14:58:37 MST.

Michael L
(mpl_35) - MLife

Locale: The Palouse
Re: Other countries on 01/08/2012 14:46:55 MST Print View

Alan how do know that patents in most non-US countries don't cover manufacturing? And does that matter to most posters on here who do happen to be in the US?

Nobody is acting like a rival company is setup

And for what seems like the billionth time, there are plenty of legal myog projects. This one started with linking to and praising a guy that is giving you a blue print to infringe an existing patent.

What is a shame is that you are ok with somebody getting ripped off.

Tim Zen
(asdzxc57) - F

Locale: MI
d on 01/08/2012 15:29:25 MST Print View

d

Edited by asdzxc57 on 01/25/2012 17:35:57 MST.

Tim Zen
(asdzxc57) - F

Locale: MI
Stagnation on 01/08/2012 15:35:57 MST Print View

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Edited by asdzxc57 on 01/25/2012 17:05:45 MST.

David Thomas
(DavidinKenai) - MLife

Locale: North Woods. Far North.
My sins on 01/08/2012 15:45:29 MST Print View

I have, at various times, done each of the following:

Let someone else watch my Blockbuster DVD rental before returning it.

Brought a snack into a theater instead of buying their $8 popcorn.

Used a McDonald's or service station restroom without patronizing them that day.

Made my own gear without an extensive patent search for someone else's prior art.

Camped or backpacked contrary to some park regulation.

Bought something shipped directly from Hong Kong.

Patronized Walmart with their minimal respect for workers in general and for minorities and women in particular.

Taken a rock or stick or shell from a National Park.

Killed a mosquito in a Park that only allows fishing (with a license), but no other hunting. And a tick. And stepped on an ant.

Eaten a cheeseburger, worn mixed-fiber garments, and trimmed my bread which are clearly forbidden by the Bible.

Bought a Toyots despite Japan's record on industrialized whaling.

Each of which is a behavior that could be abhorred by others and most of which would be viewed as stealing by some.

And yet I consider myself a pretty moral person. I try to leave the world a better place. I donate a lot of money. I volunteer my time. I teach a lot of classes for free. I try to increase other people's choices. I campaign to increase human rights and their more universal application.

I could do better. I consider my actions and consider changing them. I appreciate a thoughtful discussion of grey areas and try to grant that other moral people can have different opinions, experiences, and perspectives. And I fail at that sometimes, too.

Alan Bradley
(ahbradley)
RE no support for ripoffs on 01/08/2012 16:28:29 MST Print View

"Alan how do know that patents in most non-US countries don't cover manufacturing? And does that matter to most posters on here who do happen to be in the US?"
I looked it up. I don't live in the US, and were I live that is the case, and it would appear other places too.

"And for what seems like the billionth time, there are plenty of legal myog projects. This one started with linking to and praising a guy that is giving you a blue print to infringe an existing patent."

It would be appear that might be technically the case (ie illegal) in the US, although it sounds like it is essentially unenforceable there, but is not necessarily illegal elsewhere. In my view companies get patents as a defence against other companies not a few MYOGers.


"What is a shame is that you are ok with somebody getting ripped off."
I resent that.
MYOG frustums are not a rip-off, whereas selling a replica caldera cone would be, and I would definitely oppose that, irrespective of any patent.
Infringing the Trail Designs patent for MYOG (and I not sure if the script generated frustums do: lawyer(s) etc required for that) might not be technically legal in the US, but otherwise its no different from any other MYOG. MYOG is normally a friendly collaborative activity, and Trail Designs have been friendly to the MYOGers.

I think selling copies of patented items commercially is wrong (as well as illegal), as patents are a deal: in exchange for making their design public, the patent holder is offered a commercial monopoly for a limited period. Even with no patent I think most people would choose Trail Designs over a commercial clone, and so would I, but MYOG is OK, and if legal in your region, it is no different from any other MYOG.
Note I bought a cone first, I like the product, Trail Designs is successful, they are a nice company, if anyone asked about my homemade frustum windshield, I would mention them.
However, I think the US patent laws are wrong to include MYOG as an infringement (even if not enforced) that is not purpose of the patent "deal" described above, but I don't live there.

A frustum windshield is a simple idea, after that the postscript generated stoves deviate from the real caldera, so the "caldera clone" isn't actually a clone, its a snappy title for the original forum thread: perhaps "Caldera Tribute" would cause less grief whilst retaining a good will pointer back to Trail Designs).

"Nobody is acting like a rival company is setup"
I disagree.
A few MYOGers aren't a threat to Trail Designs, a rival company would be.
In my view companies get patents as a defence against other companies not a few MYOGers.

Edited by ahbradley on 01/08/2012 16:29:15 MST.

Alan Bradley
(ahbradley)
Re: cylinders on 01/08/2012 16:49:18 MST Print View

"Alan -- read the patent. It covers the cylinder with a sierra cup."

I didn't remember that but you are right.
That seems much to simple to be allowed as a defendable patent, rather alarmingly so.


What if the conic vessel isn't a sierra cup: is that an infringement ?
I had such an idea before reading the patent, would I be banned from using it in MYOG if I lived in the US: I would hope not.

I'm glad that where I live using patented ideas for MYOG isn't illegal. It would of course be polite to mention the inventor (unless their legacy is common knowledge).

I am depressed by this threads view of a harmless and friendly MYOG project, which is known to Trail Designs, as an attack on Trail Designs.

Edited by ahbradley on 01/08/2012 16:57:50 MST.

Michael L
(mpl_35) - MLife

Locale: The Palouse
Re: RE no support for ripoffs on 01/08/2012 17:19:38 MST Print View

Alan.

Color me dubious. How many countries have you researched patent laws in? Easy to come on here and claim "most". Harder to prove.

It isn't just "technically" the case in the US. It is the LAW. It isn't unenforceable. It just isn't economical to enforce it against individuals usually. In many ways it is like napster with the script writer being napster and the op being a downloaded of music. It might become worth enforcing if enough violators use the script to myog caldera cones.

So the music industry at least cared about protecting their intellectual property against individuals. Why? Because individuals add up.

Do you not understand that by enabling a multitude of users to make their own patent infringing products instead of buying them has the same end result: robbing the patent holder of their income stream from their patent!

It isn't just somebody making money on a stolen patent. It is the patent holder losing income.

Clayton Mauritzen
(GlacierRambler) - M

Locale: NW Montana
Re: My sins on 01/08/2012 17:29:10 MST Print View

And here are a list of my sins:

I have lied to people I love and who love me.

I have intentionally driven my car above the posted speed limit.

I have misrepresented the facts for my advantage (see above).

I have streamed movies online from an unauthorized source.

I have downloaded mp3s from Napster, et al.

I have stopped at a red light, waited for a few minutes, looked both ways, and then driven through it.

I tasted alcohol before I was 21.

I have judged others while considering myself above judgment.

The truth is, I have a lot of sins on my list. Unfortunately, that list does grow from time to time. Some of those things are illegal, and some of them are legal. Still, the preachers I grew up with would use them to condemn me.

But, something I learned a while back, it's difficult to fault a person for doing the best they can while trying to understand as much as they can. That's why I'm happy with honest, thoughtful disagreement.

The attitude that (most often) prevails on these forums is rare. I hope that we can try to preserve that--even when we disagree--without the personal attacks. By all means, share a strong opinion. But please don't do it in a way that belittles others and only makes them aware again of their many sins.

M B
(livingontheroad) - M
patents on 01/08/2012 17:58:23 MST Print View

Some here dont understand patents.

In exchange for DISCLOSING an invention, the inventor is granted the sole rights to profit from it for a period of time, provided they keep the patent registration active.

The reason it is DISCLOSED is so that others can take it, modify it, and further technological advancement from it. That is a GOOD thing and is the intention of the process.

Not that you need a disclosure to figure out something so simple, just saying. For those that think there is something wrong with making your own, etc, get over it.

Edited by livingontheroad on 01/08/2012 18:00:01 MST.

Michael L
(mpl_35) - MLife

Locale: The Palouse
But on 01/08/2012 18:09:04 MST Print View

Alan

Of course if it is legal to myog in your neck of the woods then go for it I guess. In the us it is illegal.