My Caldera Clone
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Alan Bradley
(ahbradley)
re Ultra Magnus windshield on 01/07/2012 16:07:42 MST Print View

I don't know but there is now an aluminium sidewinder.

http://www.traildesigns.com/stoves/caldera-sidewinder-system

Edited by ahbradley on 01/07/2012 16:09:50 MST.

Nick Gatel
(ngatel) - MLife

Locale: Southern California
Re: My Caldera Clone on 01/07/2012 17:07:52 MST Print View

Casey,

I think Rand said he already makes cones that are two piece, they are just not posted on his site. One of the great thinks about small companies is that they are often willing to make custom items. Give him a call.

Nick Gatel
(ngatel) - MLife

Locale: Southern California
Re: RE: RE Caldera clone name is a free ad for trail designs. on 01/07/2012 17:15:54 MST Print View

"If Rand (Lindsly) had a preferred alternative to the name "caldera clone" he could say: no need to be "not nice" when no malice was intended or offered from the original OM thread, and those on this thread quickly attempted to clear up the misunderstanding."

---------------------------------

Anything related to a stove that includes "Caldera" is trademark infringement, unless it is a product manufactured by Trail Designs (note: I am not an attorney, it is how I understand it to be).

I cannot speak for Rand, but in the past he often lets these things run their course... he really is too nice of a guy.

I am not saying that anyone had any ill intentions at all. What I am saying is that we must respect the property of others. Sort of like the ads at the beginning of some videos regarding pirating movies, "You wouldn't shoplift, would you?" To me it is the same principle.

Arapiles .
(Arapiles) - M

Locale: Melbourne
Re: <By posting your design and a link to a template is stealing... on 01/07/2012 17:35:44 MST Print View

"I don't agree it's stealing.

The common idea is using a cone shaped windshield to support a pot - CP gives full credit to TD for this notion and warns against using the template for selling cones - they are for self use/experimentation only. "


Yes, but prior to Trail Design's work were you using a cone shaped windshield to support a pot? No? So the idea came from TD. Dyson make bladeless fans: did the principle of the impeller exist before then? Yes. Had anyone thought to use an impeller as a fan, with all the advantages it provides? No. So, can everyone now just turn around and start using bladeless fans (or bagless vacuum cleaners) on the basis that, hey, it's just a principle of physics and their adoption of the principle is just a coincidence?

Those who want to use a Caldera Cone but not pay TD for one can rationalise it how they like, but it is stealing.

Ryan Smith
(ViolentGreen) - F

Locale: Southeast
Re: Re: <By posting your design and a link to a template is stealing... on 01/07/2012 17:55:30 MST Print View

"I cannot speak for Rand, but in the past he often lets these things run their course... he really is too nice of a guy."

I think Rand is very nice, but also very smart. From a business standpoint there is no upside for him to make a stink out of people cloning his design. If he comes onto a forum and makes a stink about it, most will view it negatively and not take their business to TD. Then, copy his design anyway. If he tried to legally enforce his patent against someone posting their "clone" it's going to take a lot of time and legal fees for very little result. Then, folks will copy his design anyway.

Ryan

Edited by ViolentGreen on 01/07/2012 17:56:06 MST.

Patrick S
(xpatrickxad) - F

Locale: Upper East TN
Re: Re: Re: <By posting your design and a link to a template is stealing... on 01/07/2012 18:19:43 MST Print View

I think it looks great! You took a design of a product on market, tweaked it to fit your personal wants/needs and made one for yourself. Just like almost every thread in the MYOG forum.

It turned out real clean and seems to be what you were wanting. Keep it up.

Michael L
(mpl_35) - MLife

Locale: The Palouse
What a bunch ok crooks on 01/07/2012 19:27:32 MST Print View

Glad to see so many of you guys are ok with stealing.

It DOES NOT matter if you like the patent system or not. You are infringing on a guys patent. That is illegal. That is theft.


As for the the claims that this like everybody does..well if another post is helping and encouraging patent infringement that is wrong too. But many of the so called same things thrown around are different. Because they aren't protected by a patent.

Tim Zen
(asdzxc57) - F

Locale: MI
d on 01/07/2012 21:54:34 MST Print View

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Edited by asdzxc57 on 01/25/2012 17:32:42 MST.

Dirk Rabdau
(dirk9827) - F

Locale: Pacific Northwest
An issue that will only get worse on 01/07/2012 22:20:07 MST Print View

With the advent of 3D printing, powerful (and relatively inexpensive software), and 3D scanners, there is little doubt in my mind this will become one of the major issues in the future. Already, people are "printing" 3D objects. Complex 3D objects.

I suspect the same will happen in the future with more common objects. The obvious endpoint being the ability to take a photo of an object, run it through software and make a nearly identical copy. Granted, the insides of such an object won't magically be produced, but one could see the day when instead of ordering and waiting for an object to show up, I can order and print it.

Ah, the future. For now I will purchase a new Caldera Cone. The thing is if we want innovation in the cottage industry, we need to make such an industry viable.

Dirk

a b
(Ice-axe)
Trail Designs Heinekin Caldera Stove System on 01/07/2012 22:48:42 MST Print View

Bought my Trail Designs Heinekin Caldera Cone setup at the ADZPCTKO in 2009.
ADZPCTKO=Annual Day Zero Pacific Crest Trail Kick Off.
I am not sure if it was Rand himself who sold me my Caldera kit but the fella was awesome! Explained all about the 12-10 stove, how to fix the cone if it got bent, tips and tricks for using a Caldera in the wind, how to rehydrate food while simultenously making a hot drink.
That guy was not just selling me gear.. He was totally enthusiastic about the Caldera stove kit and what it could do for hikers on the PCT.
He was right, it is an awesome stove and i will never sell mine!
Here is a picture of my Trail Designs Heinekin stove.
By the way, I had a hard time trying to figure out why people keep saying the Caldera cone is "bulky" or hard to pack.
My Original Trail Designs Caldera Cone fits entirely into the Heinekin Beer can pot and is capped off with the 12-10 stove itself.
I thought i would show everyone my Original Trail Designs Caldera Cone Complete Kit.
.Trail Designs Caldera Cone Heinekin.
.12-10 Stove comes off first
.Caldera cone comes out second
.Remove the Heinekin Can Pot from the insulated plastic cup (rehydration vessel)
.The Pot lid fits in the bottom of the plastic cup
.Assembled parts make a complete system in seconds
.The whole kit fits in the green bag.
.
The beauty of the complete system Rand made was that you can be rehydrating your meal in the insulated plastic cup and be drinking a hot cup of coffee out of the Heinekin can pot at the same time.
This stove system is tough. Mine spent time on the PCT and CDT and I still did not manage to kill it though I have just recently replaced the Heinekin can pot.. (burp).
Anyhow, back to the petty bickering.
Just thought I would share my experiences with an Original Trail Designs product.
P.S. I occurs to me that my bloody kitchen is a mess! Sorry for that!

Edited by Ice-axe on 01/07/2012 22:52:35 MST.

Nicholas Martin
(namaniac)

Locale: SoCal-High Desert
to steal or not to steal... on 01/07/2012 22:59:30 MST Print View

I think the big gripe is that the word Caldera is being used.
As far as patents go, they do run out. I think it varies from product to product...
i think some mechanical ones last like 15 yrs or something like that...sooo maybe stop calling it a clone...just call it a MYOG stove which is what it is...
Is it stealing to make a cuben down quilt?
Or your own tarp or tent modeled almost exactly after a cottage manufacturer?
Some may say yes-100% theft. Others may say no.

Regardless if it works and Rand(who really is a super nice dude) doesnt give you any guff for it...keep doing what your doing...heck maybe he will buy the design from you!!!
Making it a true caldera clone!!!

Clayton Mauritzen
(GlacierRambler) - F - M

Locale: NW Montana
Error Correction on 01/07/2012 23:03:45 MST Print View

So, I looked up Trail Design's patent (U.S. Patent #7,967,003--Google it if you want to read it yourself). It turns out that part of what I said was most definitely wrong. The patent basically covers the windscreen/pot support, i.e. the Caldera Cone, by itself without the accompanying 12-10 stove. It's a complicated read, but it's clear from a quick skimming that the patent is about the CC, not the whole system (which was what I said earlier was worthy of a patent).

I still think much of what I said still stands, but I wanted to correct this error. Trail Designs deserves it.

/*/Edited for clarity and grammer/*/

Edited by GlacierRambler on 01/07/2012 23:06:03 MST.

Backpack Jack
(jumpbackjack) - F - M

Locale: Armpit of California
RE Heinekin on 01/07/2012 23:04:49 MST Print View

Matthew where did you find the Heinekin keg can at, I've been trying to find one now for a couple of monthes with no luck, if you have a source I'll buy the beer, just need the beer can. Thanks, Jack

a b
(Ice-axe)
Heinekin Cans on 01/07/2012 23:11:02 MST Print View

NM

Edited by Ice-axe on 01/09/2012 20:57:31 MST.

Clayton Mauritzen
(GlacierRambler) - F - M

Locale: NW Montana
Actual US Patent Law on 01/07/2012 23:15:47 MST Print View

I'm no attorney, but here it is:

35 U.S.C. 271 Infringement of patent.

(a) Except as otherwise provided in this title, whoever without authority makes, uses, offers to sell, or sells any patented invention, within the United States, or imports into the United States any patented invention during the term of the patent therefor, infringes the patent.

(b) Whoever actively induces infringement of a patent shall be liable as an infringer.

..........

(g)...A product which is made by a patented process will, for purposes of this title, not be considered to be so made after -

(1) it is materially changed by subsequent processes


Now, does Captain Paranoia's adaptation apply to the G1 provision of US patent law? I don't know. Maybe----but then, maybe not.

Still, the cone is a basic shape long held within the public domain. Morally, regardless of legal wrangling, is it right to use Trail Design's idea of a cone with bottom and top vents as both a pot support and windscreen? Does the fact that a high school student could recreate a similar cone change the issue or not?

(All quotes taken from http://www.uspto.gov/web/offices/pac/mpep/documents/appxl_35_U_S_C_271.htm)

/*/Edit - forgot to add link!/*/

Edited by GlacierRambler on 01/07/2012 23:17:38 MST.

Bob Gross
(--B.G.--) - F

Locale: Silicon Valley
Re: Actual US Patent Law on 01/07/2012 23:36:32 MST Print View

"Does the fact that a high school student could recreate a similar cone change the issue or not?"

US patent law does not allow for exceptions for high school students, or anybody else for that manner.

If Trail Designs were _applying_ for the patent, you could try to legally stop it if you had good grounds. Once the patent is granted, you cannot un-ring the bell.

--B.G.--

David Thomas
(DavidinKenai) - MLife

Locale: North Woods. Far North.
Re: Re: Actual US Patent Law on 01/07/2012 23:44:33 MST Print View

>"US patent law does not allow for exceptions for high school students, or anybody else for that manner."

Agreed, there is no mention of high-school student in US patent law. The relevant phrase is "non-obvious", which, if we graduate 5,000,000 high-school students each year, might be related, but one would have to make that argument in court.

In this particular case: Could I have done the calcs as a HS student? Sure. Did I (and produce a scaled drawing)? No. Could most HS students? No.

a b
(Ice-axe)
The Original Invention on 01/07/2012 23:48:27 MST Print View

Seems to me the infringement was when it went from this:
.
Just a windscreen with some tent stakes through it to support the pot
.
To This:
.
Windscreen AND Pot support with identical ventilation holes
.The Original Invention. Pot support AND Windscreen AND ventilation calibrated to 12-10 stove
.
This is the Original Invention.
Oh yea.. the entire Trail Designs system; from the stove, pot, cup, cozy, lid, and storage bag weighs 5 ounces.

Edited by Ice-axe on 01/07/2012 23:54:32 MST.

Michael L
(mpl_35) - MLife

Locale: The Palouse
Re: to steal or not to steal... on 01/07/2012 23:50:48 MST Print View

Nicholas Martin,

The problem goes beyond the name. This is infringement of a design. Copying a quilt or tent exactly is ok legally IF it isn't under a paten or other protection.

Right wrong on copying unprotected item is completly different thing. What we have here is illegal, wrong, and literally encouraging others to steal from Someone.

It is discouraging to see so many ok with it.

Arapiles .
(Arapiles) - M

Locale: Melbourne
Re: to steal or not to steal... on 01/08/2012 06:02:13 MST Print View

"I think the big gripe is that the word Caldera is being used."

Actually the issue is that they're copying something that isn't theirs to copy.