I am going to Philmont this June 26th - July 10th. It is my understanding that the overnight temperatures at this time will be around 45, but could drop into the high 30s. After studying the philosophies on this site, I purchased a JacksRBetter Sierra Sniveller quilt and Thermarest Neo Air mattress. This past weekend I camped out on a night that was supposed to be 45 degrees, but actually dipped to freezing as my camp stool was covered with frost the next morning.

I started the night under the quilt while also wearing Stoic 200 Merino Wool tops and bottoms, wool socks, along with a Mountain Hardwear Dome Perignon hat. At bedtime it was around 50 degrees and I was not cold. I woke up cold around 1AM and also put on my Patagonia Nano Puff pullover. I woke up again at 4AM just as cold as I could be and never got warm.

I would have thought that wearing those clothes under that down quilt would have been warm. I don't consider myself a cold sleeper, so I'm worried that I'm going to freeze to death at Philmont, even if the temps are at 45 degrees (the Nano Puff doesn't really keep me warm at 45 degrees either).

One reason I decided on the quilt is that I'm a big guy... 5'10" and 230 lbs (although I'll be at 200 for Philmont) and all but my wide model synthetic sleeping bag is too tight on me. I am now considering getting a Montbell UL Super Spiral Down Hugger bag. Most people on this site have gotten the #3 bag, but I'm afraid that would be too cold. I'm looking at the #1 15 degree bag, but I'm worried that's overkill for Philmont.

Do any of you have some thoughts/suggestions on what I should do?

Edited by markrvp on 01/05/2012 09:46:08 MST.

Supplement the pad or get an insulated pad. Perhaps put a Ridgerest under the NeoAir.

A few thoughts.

I have heard that the neoair isn't warm enough that low. You might want to consider adding a thin ccf next time to see if that helps. Or get an insulated pad.

What did you eat for dinner? Did you take a midnight snack to bed? I find that winter temps require me to eat a little something in the middle of the night when/if I wake up a bit chilly. Normally 15 minutes later I am back to warm.

I'm with Doug, try a warmer pad (or combo) first since it's cheaper than a new bag. I'd shoot for an R-value of around 4 (higher is warmer).

You didn't mention is you toss & turn at night. If you do, that could also come into play using a quilt. As mentioned in other posts, a different pad with a higher R-Value would help. After Christmas, I did a Scout hike in Big Bend (S. Rim) using my new All-Season NeoAir. It worked great (got down to the 30s at night). Another adult leader used his NeoAir and got cold around 5 am. He put his close-cell foam sit pad under his hips and he warmed up enough to go back to sleep.

Note: I used the NeoAir in a 2010 Philmont Trek (Cavalcade) along with a 20 deg WM Ultralight bag (used exclusively in a quilt mode) and stayed warm. My other two Philmont Treks (07 & 08), I used the same bag but used the RidgeRest pad. I stayed warm in my tarp tent (Cloudburst).

Have fun on your trek in Philmont.

YIS.

I agree with the comments above about eating something and improving your underside insulation. One other thought I had, is are you getting a good tuck on your quilt? Do you have the wings? I am a bigger guy like you. I discussed quilts with the guys from JRB... they recommended getting the wings to make sure I have proper coverage. The alternative is the two person quilt.

+1 on combining another pad (zlite?) with the Neo Air.

The dome perignon is great warmth per weight, but a bomber style with shell will be warmer (covers ear, sides of face, a bit under your chin) and adding warmth to your head is always the lightest warmth you can add.

I can't explain the pysiology, but I know I feel cold, really cold, with a full bladder. I was always hesitant to get up and pee because I thought I'd get colder being outside, right? But after I've peed, I feel warmer and sleep better. It's surprising how much difference it makes. Thermodynamically, it makes no sense - that pint of pee was at 98.6F/37C already. But maybe there's something about a full bladder that turns down your metabolism? It sure makes a difference for me. So I now cut off the drinks 2-3 hours before bedtime, pee right before getting into bed and don't hesitate to brave the cold to relieve myself at 1 am.

"I can't explain the physiology, but I know I feel cold, really cold, with a full bladder. I was always hesitant to get up and pee because I thought I'd get colder being outside"

+1...I experience the same thing and it puts you at quite the conundrum at 2am and 20 degrees outside. Brrrr.

I would test adding some insulation under the Neoair first. Cheapest option and very possible it's the cause of your trouble.

Ryan

Edited by ViolentGreen on 01/05/2012 10:51:03 MST.

"I can't explain the pysiology"

I think you have to pee more in the cold b/c this helps to reduce blood volume, which helps you body reduce circulation to extremeties (protecting the core).

I may just be imagining this.

Cold diuresis is a known phenomenon. Surface capillaries constrict to reduce heat loss to the environment, reducing the available volume of your circulatory system, increasing blood pressure. Your kidneys go into overtime to reduce the volume of liquid. So maybe it's not that having to urinate makes you cold, but being cold makes you urinate. Doesn't explain why one would feel warmer after urinating, though - maybe it's the exertion of getting dressed and going outside.

In backcountry first aid, we're taught to watch out for the rebound effect from cold diuresis - when the patient warms up blood pressure can crash leading to shock if already dehydrated or suffering from other volume loss.

Old, true statement regarding sleeping warm: what's under you is far more important than what's over you.


A good night's sleep is essential to hiking efficency, especially if you're out for long distances or multiple days. I've learned the hard way not to scrimp on the sleeping pad.

Some folks can sleep - God only knows how - on a 1/4 inch thick CCF torso pad that weighs an enviable 5 ounces. I want (need) a Thermarest Prolite Plus; 20 x 66 x 1.5 R=4.2. It's heavy, but I'm worth it. Yes, I appropriated my wife's pad; my more manly 20x48 left my legs cold, even with my pack under them. Advancing age does that to you.

"Doesn't explain why one would feel warmer after urinating"

Maybe emtying helps further diuresis.

If your body is reducing blood volume to stay warm and minimize heat loss, then no peeing is preventing that process. As such your body is having to expend more energy both in staying warm (since more blood is cooling at your skin surface) as well as energy to hold in urine. You know when you really have to pee and your whole body is hopping around to tell you nature's call can't be ignored...yeah that probably requires a lot of energy that could be used as warmth instead.

Of course this highlights the complexity of feeling warm. Usually when your extremities are cut off from blood they get cold, but having the skin cooled can provide a happy medium where they aren't losing as much heat so feel warmer despite being colder. I'm sure many couples are aware of this, one has frozen feet but is comfortable and the other is a furnace but freezing.

I know a lot of winter campers recommend peeing before going to bed to help with this phenomenon, so if it works, even as placebo, it works!

Could be a lot of things. With the million variables that go into sleeping outdoors, one night isn't necessarily a trend. You might try another night at the same temperature and be warm.

(With that said, here are a few thoughts if something is wrong…)

A lot of people have sad sleeping pad. Yes. I've read more strange reports about the NeoAir than anything else – it seems to not work for people (baffling, I now), while others use it down to 20º without issue. Do you have another sleeping pad? If not, supplement it with some thin foam.

Did you open up yourself to drafts with your quilt? I've done this a couple times in my sleep, only to wake up to tuck myself back under.

Your headwear might be an issue. Try a balaclava or at least a buff to cover up as much area as possible. You may not need a down hood, but you'll probably want something.

I sleep cold usually, but did very fine at Philmont in 2010 on my Neoair with an older Lafuma Warm 'n light 30* down bag with a Sea to Summit Reactor liner. Slept in shorts and a tshirt. Understand that the Lafuma bag is REALLY thin.... maybe a 50* bag if your lucky. The Reactor liner is more to keep the bag clean, not add any real measureable warmth - imo. A few nights I used the bag more like a quilt.
My first though when I read your post was a lack of food or water.... drink more, eat a bit more.
You shouldn't need another pad or bag at Philmont, get something cheap to get you through the winter shakedown hikes and you should be fine. Temps rarely dropped into the 40's - altitude isn't usually a big factor depending on your trek. (Philmont keeps everyone under 7,000 ft overnight for atleast the first 7 days....blame us flatlanders for that.)
I'll arrive at Philmont just before you this year....We arrive June 17th!!! I'll be carrying my Neoair, same liner, and my new Revelation X quilt from Enlightened Equipment.
Only 162 days til we leave..... but how's counting!!
Enjoy!
Sarah

You may have to change your feelings on being a cold sleeper.

I "didn't consider myself a cold sleeper" even though I've spent many nights shivering over the years. if you had a bunch of insulation for a given temp numerous times and continued to be cold all those times... you're a cold sleeper.

compensate or be cold. period. (AKA its that easy to fix)

I finally came to terms with the horrors and realizations of being a cold sleeper. Now I carry more sleepy stuff- viola! warm throughout the night- ahhhh

Read this thread...it might answer a few of your questions

http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/forums/thread_display.html?forum_thread_id=40500

Hi,

I sleep cold also, so I always end up packing at least 500g more insulation and pad than my buddies, this goes for 3 Season or winter.

To be honest an extra 500g is not so much of a burden for getting a good nights sleep.

Cheers,

Stephen

a few quesions

1. what part of your was cold .... the back, sides, head, etc ... did you feel heat seeping away through the ground

2. are you a back or side sleeper

3. did you feel drafts, were you in a tent

4. what was yr diet before sleeping

5. was the was the quilt still fully lofted when yr were feeling cold

6. was the neo air fully inflated, or did you leave it partially inflated for more comfort

i wont guess onto the reasons why until i have more data

You added insulation to your torso but not your legs. Consider adding some cheap synthetic long johns to your equipment. They would be nice (albeit not high fashion)to wear at breakfast time too.

Regarding the peeing issue, my one luxury item, with the resultant weight penalty, is a wide mouth 32oz Nalogene flexible cantene. I haven't had to do a pee run outside my shelter in the middle of the night since I started hauling it around. Though I've never tried it, and in line with the philosophy of dual use, after peeing in it stick it under your quilt to add some warmth (make sure the lid is on tight).
I think of myself as a cold sleeper and have been able to sleep comfortably in below freezing temps using a GoLite 20 quilt, a short Neoair combined with a 1/8" closed cell pad and a balaclava. I consider the balaclava as the key--I don't have much hair and the heat loss through my noggin is huge.

I am very grateful for this discussion. Here is some more info:

-Every part of me was cold, even my feet (which are usually burning up in socks. The NeoAir mattress was cool/cold to the touch.

-I was sleeping in a 2-man tent with my 10-year-old son with the rainfly on. I didn't feel any drafts in the tent

-I sleep on my side, and initially went to sleep this way.

-Both times I woke up I had to go pee outside. After getting back in the tent I laid on my back and tried to tuck the quilt under me (not the pad) to eliminate the possibility of cool air coming in under the sides.

-The NeoAir was not fully inflated... I keep it a little loose to form to my body better.

-I did my very best to loft the quilt, however I'm concerned that the down may have been falling down around me and the down on top of me was minimal. I fluffed the quilt after both times I got up to pee.

-My son and I split a Mountain House Chili Mac with Beef rehydrated (hot) dinner at 9:20. Prior to that I had a cup of hot coffee and then had a Coke Zero with the dinner. I didn't eat or drink anything else after that and we went to bed between 10:30-11:00. I peed before going to sleep.


In addition to the discussion about the mattress and quilt, I would love to hear what people think about my question on the Montbell UL Super Spiral Down Hugger sleeping bags. The reason I was looking at those is because they stretch and I normally feel claustrophobic in normal size mummy bags. I would probably like to get a bag either way, but don't want to get the wrong bag.

A Pee bottle is a big bonus if its cold or blowing a gale outside.

But if we're being hard-core ULers here, how about some tubing instead of a bottle? It's lighter and smaller.

Just catether yourself when going to bed and run the other end outside your shelter. Then you won't even have to sit up or maybe even wake up. Until we were 1 or 2 (or 5!) years old, we all just peed in our sleep.

It worked for that astronaut who drove across country to shoot her BF's other GF.

And before someone starts debating the merits of repeatedly cath'ing yourself without sterile supplies, let me say, I'M JOKING HERE!

Thats Funny :-)

I'm a cold sleeper. Fleece socks help.
I have down booties but my feet are cold unless I wear both.

in addition to the Neoair, add a 2nd very thin pad inside the quilt like a
"GG Thinlight Insulation Pad 1/8"; the extra 2 oz is well worth it, it keeps you warm and toasty. It's suprising how much warmth this adds.

I had been under the impression that you get cold when having to pee is because is because your body has to expend energy to keep the urine at 98.6 degrees and diverts energy from keeping your extremities warm. Don't know where I heard that though.
I definitely think you need to supplement the neoair if it got down to freezing, and tucking the quilt is also extremely important.

> the impression that you get cold when having to pee is because is because your body
> has to expend energy to keep the urine at 98.6 degrees and diverts energy from
> keeping your extremities warm.
Myth, violates the laws of physics. But needing to go can make you move around and generate drafts.

The NeoAir was not warm enough, and I suspect that the dinner listed was grossly inadequate for two. Not enough food is always a problem for keeping warm.

Cheers

or just take some of these along?

apparently you can bury them just like p00p and they will biodegrade.

mark

here is my guess at what has happened based on the info, as much as i can without being there anyways

it is likely primarily caused by 3 factors

1. insufficient ground insulation ... now i have used the neo air down to freezing alone just fine and lower with some heat loss, but i always fully inflate it ... the R value of an inflatable pad is usually correlated with its inflation (as you are a member you can see mr caffins excellent SOTM report on inflatable pads) ... thus yr partial inflation of the pad i suspect was part of the issue ...also just as many people require different amounts of insulation to stay "warm", so does the need for ground insulation vary

2. quilt loft ... the JRB sierra sniveler i believe is "rated" to 25-30F, this is not an en-rating, so im not sure how accurate it is ... there have been other threads on BPL with people noticing the loss of loft and with yr comment amount minimal down on top ... i suspect that the loft migrated from the top to the bottom over a few hours ... this likely got you feeling cold as im pretty sure the rating is for a fully lofted quilt

3. im not sure how much calories or fat is in the dinner, but you want to eat high fat foods like cheese, sausage, etc before sleeping ... and dont skimp on the calories either, yr body burns them while keeping warm ... drink enough as well as you need to keep hydrated, dehyration makes one cold

and aggravated by ...

4 getting up to take a piszz no doubt incurred some heat loss ... but i would have done the same thing in the temps you described ... holding yr bladder is worse IMO for sleeping warmth, yr expending the energy to hold it in

5 as to draft, what i mean is did you feel air coming in the sides of the quilt ... if you did the quilt is not wide enough, or youd be better using a bag IMO .... if you didnt, this doesnt apply




solutions ... i recommend these in order based on their effectiveness and minimal investment IMO

1. get a cheap foam pad (blue pad or a foam thermarest) and put it under/over the neo air ... this should effectively solved yr pad issues down to at least 15F or so ,,, minimal cost

2. drink and eat enough before sleeping ... i eat salami myself, and alot of it ... make sure it got fat content in there

3. you can get a piszz bottle if you want, mountaineers will take a pizz in the bottle inside their bag/tents and then use it as a hot water bottle .... however at the temps you described a hawt nalgene would be better IMO ... just fill it with near boiling water when cooking and stuff it in yr bag/quilt wrapped in something right away ... itll prewarm the bag for you and keep you warm for awhile ... be careful not to melt/burn anything though ...

4. if migrating down is an issue or you feel drafts coming in the sides (quilt not wide enough) ... consider a wider quilt or a properly en-rated sleeping bag ... the en-ratings give you a decent amount of confidence that the bag will be warm enough for the "average" person, whether you fit that mold is a question i cant answer ... also if the rest of the things here dont work youll simply need a warmer bag


as a side note and not as a dig to anyone ... i keep on mentioning the importance of technique repetitively ... gear itself will only get you so far

heres a few links on techniques and sleeping bag ratings


http://www.andy-kirkpatrick.com/articles/view/maximising_your_bags_warmth

http://www.mammut.ch/images/Mammut_Sleep_well_pt1_E.pdf

hope this helps ... be sure to report back what solutions work for you

Edited by bearbreeder on 01/05/2012 14:27:25 MST.

Good comments so far. I would look at the mat and the food issue first before laying money into a whole new system. I took a class at rei on basic survival skills and one tip the guy mentioned was to eat chocolate if he was cold at night. Careful of bears with that one though.

If you have netflix I highly recomend the survival show done by Ron Hood. It's basically a teaser to get you to order full videos but in it he goes into detail about how to keep warm at night. Just putting your tent under a tree or near a southern facing rock can create a microclimate that is warmer then the surrounding area. Good luck on your trip.

Edited by ChristopherActual on 01/05/2012 14:29:02 MST.

I have found that I am colder when I am dehydrated. Try drinking more water throughout the day and try to stay away from caffeine in the evening.

just to add one point i missed in the above post ...

yr hat is a fleece hat ... once temps fall below freezing, something beefier may be in order ... not an issue with a bag, but definitely something to look out for with a quilt ...

someone with more knowledge than me can comment better ... but i believe that as you get colder towards hypothermia, the amount of heat loss through yr head increases dramatically ...

i generally use and recommend puffies with hoods for this reason

Eric's point about the hat is important. I think you want to overdo it here. You want to have at least one warm hat, or maybe even two. Or else one warm hat plus the down insulated parka hood. It doesn't hurt you a bit to stand around in camp with a warm head.

I have one hat that is a heavy Army pile cap. One is a wool cap. One is Polartec. One is acrylic. I just take any two.

--B.G.--

In addition to all the posts above, with which I agree (especially with supplementing the NeoAir, preferably with a thick CCF pad--1/8" won't do much), I find it helps to do some exercise at bedtime--brisk walk or jumping jacks or similar--to rev up your body in preparation for warming up your quilt/sleeping bag.

I can't see in your posts that you wore your puffy jacket; did I miss something? If it gets cold, I will put on everything I have inside the sleeping bag, including rain gear and extra socks, whatever it takes to keep warm!

With a quilt, you need the equivalent of a sleeping bag hood on your head, in addition to the knit hat, when it gets cold. Maybe cap plus balaclava? Down hood?

If you can swing it, consider getting the Montbell bag from an retailer with a generous return policy (such as REI or backcountry.com) and try it for a while. Try it on a frosty night and also on a 45*-50*F night. The last time I looked, Montbell's "regular" and "long" sizes are different from most American bags. I believe the cutoff is 5'10" which means you'd need the long. Watch the girth measurements, too. Measure your shoulder and hip girth over your arms and while wearing all your insulating clothing. That might be why you're having problems with mummy bags.

Edited by hikinggranny on 01/05/2012 16:23:18 MST.

I agree with eric

I use a top bag which is similar to a quilt

Above freezing I use a 200 wt fleece hat which is fine

Below freezing, I need something else - either a second layer of fleece (balaclava) or replace the fleece hat with a synthetic hood (okay, I'm back to disrespecting fleece)

No if and or buts about it:

1st The NeoAir is the #1 problem. For you, it will not keep you comfortable at those temps. As others have said, to use the Neo you will have to augment it with something else to sleep comfortable under 35 to 40 degrees. The Neo is a great pad but it has limitations. Others mileage my vary, but you have tested the pads lower end for your body.

2nd You could use a warmer quilt, but fix the Neo issue first. You might not have to change quilts but if you find after augmenting the Neo you are still a little cold then upgrade the quilt (you probably won't have to do this) or add more clothing.

Everything else that has been suggested is ancillary to the above. Fix the first two, then you can get into the minor idiosyncrasies of what the other have put forward.

My take on the the Pee thing is- Roger is right on the physics, body/bladder temps and all. I think when you are cold you feel like you need to go more than when you are warm. Why I don't know but my field studies have proven this out. For some reason I don't "need to go" as much when I'm warm compared to when I'm cold. And yes I have ask others if they felt the same phenomena. They responded "now that you mention it yes I was cold, I usually don't wake up because I had to 'go', but I did last night and I was also cold"
Let me know if anyone else has noticed this....

Edited by bestbuilder on 01/05/2012 17:42:46 MST.

For starters the Neo air is only r 2.5, freezing (32F) is R 3.8 equivilant. So the first step is to increase your overall R value to closer match the temps you expect to encounter. Adding a ccf pad below your neoair would be the cheapest way to proceed. That would put you around r4-4.5 which would be good to 30F-25F or so.

Part of this can be compensated for by using more sleeping bag than you need or wearing more layers instead of adding more R value insulation underneath you.

Another good step to increase overall warmth through the night is to 'fuel your furnace', eating only half of a chili mac doesnt really seem like enough fuel for your body to keep warm through the night, drinking a diet coke or coke zero also wont help any as this adds no calories. Before heading off to bed eat a high calorie snack, dark chocolae peanut m&ms are a good choice for me, as well as a few pieces of beef jerkey. Drinking hot cocoa is good too. If you ever wake up cold eat a handful of something, i keep the m&ms beside me just for this purpose. Any combo of nuts, chocolate, trail mix etc are good choices.

If all else fails there is always the boil a liter of water and put it in a nalgene trick then put this at the foot of your sleeping bag or between your thighs.

Wearing a hat to bed can help too if its cold.

I found a huge difference from my Prolite with a zlite, moving onto my new thermarest all season, same quilt, both on snow covered ground at around 30 degrees, same everything except the new pad was radiating heat at me (it felt warm) and i was warm all night instead of mildly cold to chilly.

A warmer sleeping bag will not help all that much, if any- when you lay down you flatten/crush the "insulation" and the pad still acts as a heat sink, sucking the warmth out of you through your back. Extra insulation on your sides and top don't really help, if tried this. I added a 20* WM bag, puffy pants, down sweater all to no avail. All the insulation was flattened and I was still cold, even with adding all the extra insulation. And no, I wasn't compromising the down with too many layers, compressing it. This is my normal layers that I carry and they all fit just fine together.

Edited by bestbuilder on 01/05/2012 18:08:26 MST.

Your coffee and Coke is loaded with caffine which constricts your blood vessles and inhibits circulation. Not good in cold weather and especially before bedtime.

Even if you are cool,( not toasty), your back should still feel warm, you should be able to feel the warmth of the pad against you. If not, you simply dont have enough insulating pad.

like others say, try improving it first.

Frost isnt a good indicator of temperature. Surfaces become sub-cooled from radiative loss and can frost well above freezing on a clear still night. You can probably also add 5-6 degrees to whatever the outside temp was for 2 persons in a 2P tent too. Of course getting up to pee a couple times would drop the tent temp. Just another reason to use a pee bottle in cold conditions when the tent is part of your system.

I want to thank everybody for their input on my freezing problem. A thread like this should be made into an article on cold weather sleeping tips!

I'll be honest, my previous normal way of combating cold on car camping trips was to sleep in a sleeping bag, on a cot with a Cabela's Alaskan Guide 2.5" self-inflating foam pad, with a Little Buddy propane heater to knock the chill out of the tent ;-)

For the last year I've really made a commitment to lightweight backpack camping as I prepare to take my crew to Philmont. I'm currently an Assistant Scoutmaster in my son's Boy Scout troop, and I'll be the Scoutmaster starting next January 1. I'm looking forward to sharing the things I've learned here with the boys!

maybe im being bad - but ever since i discovered peeing bottles i do it all the time (even @ home when i come back from business trip at 4AM and want to sleep through the morgen so i hide in my study while the girls wake up...need to pee in the bottle)

I always use whatever pot/bottle i carry for water - I usually use a 2 container system (never go out wit hjust 1 bottle/bladder) so i would either pee in a nalgene canteen or just in my snowpeak 700ml pot.


@david thomas - dont stop drinking!!!!
I find the contrary to be wiser - you cant really re hydrate enough on the trail. I start drinking like crazy as i get to camp (and eating..)so i end up peeing like 3~4 times at night. I think doing this (with the pee bottle of course) is much healthier than stopping fluid intake early

Mike

Is there enough down in the quilt? There have been a few photos posted of that quilt, and it looked as if it was underfilled on those photos.

One more thing: you say you're going to lose 30lb before Philmont. If you reach that goal, or just somewhere close, via exercise and activity (combined with deprivation and...well you get it), you'll not only have burned fat but also created more muscle. At your (our) age, this will have the effect of boosting your metabolism and you will sleep warmer -- particularly with fuel in the tank.

Conversely, when out of shape and at the end of a day that beats you down with distance, you'll sleep colder (if you sleep well at all).

Good point form Eric. I can't prove it but my experience is I sleep a lot colder when I'm going to bed exausted.

Would there be any benefit to taking a space blanket and folding it in half lengthwise and slipping the NeoAir in between? That would put a layer between the ground and the mattress and between me and the mattress.

I'm guessing it would be very little (if any) benefit, but I'm trying to keep in the spirit of ultralight thinking.

mark ...

no ...

if the issue is more R value, only another pad (foam is cheaper and fairly light) or a new pad will work .. you can always return it to REI if it doesnt work

i strongly suggest that you test up and troubleshoot in yr backyard starting with a cheap foam pad and nutrition ... and another cheap hat

from my experience in troubleshooting, you can end up spending a lot more and wasting a lot more time trying to fix everything at once without isolating the root cause

Edited by bearbreeder on 01/06/2012 13:28:23 MST.

No the space blanket will not add anything. Eric is correct.
I know because I tried this very same thing and it had zero effect, plus the physics they claim is just not there.

Space blankets might help to block a little wind when wrapped around you, but other than that there only real use might be for a lightweight ground cloth.

Don't get fooled by the advertising, they do not generate heat or reflect any measurable heat back on you. A sheet of regular plastic would do the same.

Edited by bestbuilder on 01/06/2012 14:12:13 MST.

Mark, space blankets work well as ground cloths. They are lighter than most other ground cloths and will give you a little more heat. Pretty much a win win. A little noisy though.
They work better taped to the top of your tarp or shelter than straight on top of you.

Other than that, space blankets only become amazing when you combine them with a fire. One taped to your tarp, one pitched on the other side as a reflector, with a fire in the middle, you just created an oven.

I have two comments from my personal experience:

First, my AMK Heatsheet Emergency Bivy at 3.5oz saved my butt last year. I was using an REI Nooksack synthetic bag rated to 35 degrees ( more like 45!). My last night of a trip the temperature dropped below freezing with winds up to 25ish. My TT Contrail wasn't exactly blocking the wind. Being too cold to sleep I decided to try one last option before packing out at 1am. Being the last night I just slid my pad and bag into the bivy and crawled in. Within minutes I was warm. I became so warm during the night that venting became necessary. In the morning there was heavy condensation on my bag, but the shell caught it all. Not bad for 3.5oz!

Secondly, I was caught in a 20 degree night in my Katabatic Palisade ( rated 30 degrees) My only headwear was a smartwool thin cap and a thin fleece beanie. I found through trail and error that I was much warmer having my WM Flight jacket wrapped around my head than draped over my chest area.

Jerry

Mark, I have 4 Montbell bags and two of them are the newer UL Super Stretch down bags. I really like these bags. They are light, compress well and keep me warm. I'm 6' 220 so I use the "long" bags. I don't have that claustrophobic feeling in the Montbell bags. I sleep on my side with one knee pulled up. No problem with room. I also have the Neo Air pad and it is a summer pad. I do have a ccf pad to use under it if conditions dictate but the better choice for me is to use my exped insulated pad if it's really cold. I also wear an OR windstopper Peruvian hat when it's cold. I can't remember the last time I got out of a tent or hammock to take a leak during the night. I have a bladder the size of a walnut so a pee bottle has been standard equipment for a long time. Screw the lid on tight and use it as a hot "water" bottle. I do have some extra thick Woolrich socks and down booties if it gets to that. I have never used the down booties in the bag. They are just for around camp and will only be making the trip if it is really cold or if I'm canoe camping.

Edited by onepaddlejunkie on 01/06/2012 23:10:25 MST.

Mark, I use a neo-air and Montbell ss-ul #3 bag with it. I found this to be very comfortable at philmont in 2010. I plan on using this setup again this summer. Our arrival date in 2010 was june 23d and the lowest temp we saw was 36 degrees one night.
I slept in a short sleeve shirt and shorts with a possum down stocking cap. Most nights were closer to 42 to 45 degrees. I think that a #1 15 degree bag would be to warm for me at least. Hope this helps. I am 6'- 205lbs. dave

I went on another overnight backpacking trip this weekend. The overnight temperature was between 36-40.

Here is what I changed from last time:

I used a footprint under my Quarterdome T2 tent for an extra barrier between the tent and the ground. (don't know that this helps, but what the heck)

I took along a blue ccf pad from Wal-Mart and put it on top of my Neo Air.

I ate a full Mountain House package meal 2 hours before going to sleep.

I did jumping jacks before going to sleep.

I ate a package of Peanut M&Ms right before sleeping

I put on a heavier pair of wool socks

I folded my quilt lengthwise and shook it to help the down settle to the very middle so it would be warmest right above me.

I tied my quilt under me everywhere there were tie-offs and also closed down the neck opening as tight as comfortable.

These changes kept me toasty through the night. At 7AM when I woke up I wasn't warm, but I wasn't cold either... just comfortable. I was still wearing my Stoic Merino 200 long tops and bottoms and my Dome Perignon Hat. I had another fleece balaclava that I had on to begin with, but I was too hot in that.

I feel pretty strongly that the foam pad on top of the Neo Air combined with closing off the quilt around me made the biggest difference as many of you suggested. I've ordered a 1/8" ccf pad from Gossamer Gear, and I'm curious to see how it compares to the $7 pad from Wal-Mart.

I really DON'T want to have to carry a bulky pad at Philmont. Hopefully the 1/8" pad will be enough AND fit inside my ULA Circuit pack without taking up too much room. I'll also keep the package of Trail Mix in the PhilFood lunch packs for eating right before bed.