Think about it a little.

I'm walking along and my ankle starts to roll.

If I'm wearing a shoe that doesn't cover my ankle, the shoe has at least some chance (varies depending on how tight it fits and how tight it's laced) of rolling off my foot. But, if I have on a boot that extends above my ankle and is laced to the top, it has no chance of coming off. If the boot rolls, my foot and ankle go with it. If the shoe rolls, well, it may just be the shoe that rolls, and not my foot and ankle.

The other side of it, at least speaking in general terms, is a boot will almost certainly be very thick at the sole. That means your foot has zero proprioception. Less so with a shoe, especially if it's of the more minimal variety.

Edited by simplespirit on 01/06/2012 09:25:50 MST.

by my podiatrist--the kind of fracture I suffered was the hyperexention of a ligament. What happens in that instance is a chunk of bone tears away rather than the ligament snapping. What my podiatrist told me is the ligament would not have hyperextended to the extent it did had I been wearing boots at the time because the ankle support provided would have restricted the range of motion. I'm not an expert, I'm just relating my own experience.

Fair enough. I don't know your podiatrist, but I suspect that's based more on theory than fact.

My wife (a PT/DPT) has hypermobile joints, including both ankles. She will be walking along the trail (or even on a road) and roll her ankles at random. It makes a horrible noise and usually causes minor short-lived pain.

When we met, she wore clunky boots and a big knee brace (coming off a second knee repair). At some point she stopped wearing the brace but kept the boots. Eventually I convinced her to move to a light hiker, and then to a trail runner. Since decreasing her footwear, the instances of her ankles rolling has gone down from several times a day to maybe once every several trips. She can't wear footwear that's as minimal as what I can get away with, but it's a far cry from what she used to wear. FWIW, she did a published project on the effects of shod vs unshod running as part of her DPT program, mostly in part due to her own experiences with minimizing footwear.

I have endured ankle problems for a long time. I have previously dislocated both ankles(separately), had numerous sprains, and fairly recently an avulsion fracture. Most of these injuries occurred in sporting events on a wooden floor.
Here are my thoughts and remedies. Both of my dislocations occurred in high cut athletic shoes; I don't think they help that much. After my dislocations, I began wearing Active Ankles, a hinged brace worn by a high percentage of volleyball players. Active Ankles allow the foot to flex with a hinge but prevent almost any rolling movement. I have never injured my ankle in about 20 years of wearing them in situations that commonly roll and injure ankles. They have never blistered my feet but I do have some concerns about wearing them for long distance. I think Active Ankles with light shoes are lighter than heavy high boots and provide a lot more support.
That being said, I do not wear them backpacking now. It is my belief that low-profile shoes help prevent rolling of the ankle. I also believe poles help prevent rolling an ankle. I have gone 2 years injury-free with low shoes and poles. I also run in low-profile shoes now and feel it has strengthened the muscles supporting my ankle. I think the more you wear them the stronger your ankles will become.
I hope my non-scientific experience is helpful to you.

I made the switch from heavy leather Italian, high top hiking boots recently to The North Face Crestone (low top, non-gore tex) and will never go back.

The North Face has a lot of options as far as trail shoes. Several of their models they have in low top, mid top, goretex or no goretex. Several of the models have vibram soles so a little more substantial than a running shoe or something with a foam sole. I havent put a ton of miles on mine yet but I love them so far. I wouldnt even consider boots ever again unless it was very cold/snow/wet conditions and even then I would probably go with a non boot option.

Here is a link to all the men's The North Face shoes at www.endless.com I love these guys, free shipping to you and on returns so I order several pairs, try them on then return the ones I don't want. www.zappos.com does the same thing.
http://tinyurl.com/78mjp43

Edited by TylerD on 01/06/2012 10:01:11 MST.

You mentioned in your OP that you 'need' to carry lots of other stuff as you are travelling abroad. Do you know Paddy Dillon who posts on OM?
He makes his living writing world-wide hiking guides for Cicerone. His method, is to carry a waterproof s/sack with him. When he clears the airport, he finds someplace to bury the sack full of stuff he doesn't need for the hike. On his return, he digs up the sack, and re-enters the 'real world'.
Just a thought.

Or, as an alternative to Mike's/Paddy's idea, some countries have reasonably-priced left luggage offices at bus stations and train stations. Also, if you stay at a smallish hotel on your first night, they will often hold stuff for you.

>"carry a waterproof s/sack with him. . . . bury the sack full of stuff he doesn't need for the hike. "

I like that! I'm going to keep that in mind. A few variants could include:

Stashing it inside a culvert (during non-flood season).

I've stashed things up under a bridge, on top of a grider. Urban bridges are sometimes camps for the homeless, rural bridges aren't. There are highway, foot and RAIL bridges to consider.

Those cookie boxes that come with the big assortment or are sold separately with holiday themes on them are cheap at a thrift store. And if you'll bury it soon (and once?), its bulk wouldn't be a hindrance and it does offer structure that a stuff sack doesn't. Line it with a trash bag for total waterproofness.

I have found, repeatedly, (I sample groundater wells that are in flush-mounted vault boxes) that an inch of snow can totally obscure what you thought was obvious. I thought I knew exactly where that 9" round spot was and now I can't find it within 5 feet. And 10'x10' is a BIG area to search through the snow. Getting two, better three, measurements from fenceposts, trees, lines on roads, sidewalk edges, buildings lets you triangulate after a snow falls, a farmer mows the field, etc, Bring a sharpie and write directly on the fencepost or signpost how many feet or paces or arm spans. No one else will know what it means. A bit of reflective tape could distinguish YOUR guardrail post or fencepost quickly and AT NIGHT.

My boot heels wear at predictable spots, right and left, year after year. My right knee has issues. I wear my right heel to the outer right side. Clearly I "roll" to the outer right. I just got heel replacements for my everyday boots. The heels were worn but the boots still have life in them. Initially the heel replacements felt clunky, like the "rocker" (if that's the term) is off (heel to toe movement). However, I think that my knee is liking the support. The new heels are not as grippy as the originals for sure. But does a better "strike" outweigh the negatives? p.s. I do wear custom orthotics.

In other words: how important are good soles/heels to alignment of ankles and knees? Or does the "natural" wearing of soles/heels actually accomodate each person's stride?
And do people like their heel replacements?

Edited by hegel1 on 01/06/2012 21:03:54 MST.

I will have to first state that that what I am going to propose does not qualify as true UL - however, I have broken my right foot (arch, ankle and foot bones) 3 times. Thus, I have little choice but to use a more supportive or heavier weight hiking boot/shoe for technical trips. I choose the Patagonia P26 mid hight boot. Plus, it is a wide boot. I considered the Scarpa Dharma Pro - however, I needed something waterproof as I live in Washington. Perhaps you will not have that need... The boots is light enough not to weight me down too much, however, gives me the support (mentally and physically) to carry loads necessary for 10-14 day trips. Granted the boot is over-kill for the 3-4 day hikes and on those trips, I use a hiking shoe. However, peace of mind has to also be considered when choosing the right equipment and sometimes, having a little more ankle support "out-weighs" a UL shoe.

Something for you to consider....

Cheers and good hiking to ya.

I think that while there is plenty of reasoning behind going to trail runners, I have always been completely against doing it. No, it has nothing to do with ankle support. It is healthier for you to hike with your own natural ankle support and build the proper muscle and technique. However, a lot of hiking happens in places where trails are narrow, have protruding rocks and roots, and I find that while I don't need the ankle support, I want the ankle protection. Hitting your ankle on things is painful. I spent a while trying on different boots, hiking with different setups, and I went from a stiff leather backpacking boot, to a running shoe, to these:

Solomon XA Pro 3D Mid Ultra GTX® Boot.

I found these boots to be liberating. They are very light compared to other boots, you get the added protection of goretex, and they feel like you are barely wearing anything on your feet. There are plenty of other boots in this category - light, good flex, ankle protection, and not much heavier than the average sneaker. I am a convert to these new lighter weight boots. There is also another great option from Adidas:

Adidas Terrex Boots

These are newer design, also light, waterproof, and flexible.

I much prefer to keep water out of my boots and keep my feet dry with a mid boot and a gaiter, then to suffer with uncomfortable wet feet. Because yes, you can keep them warm, but who the heck really wants to hike all day with damp feet sloshing around? Good way to get athlete's foot, or to just weaken the skin in general by abusing it - I still don't get why anybody would be ok hiking in these conditions, or why they would prefer to use a shoe that wets through with the introduction of even the smallest amount of water. To me that is a danger on longer trips. If your feet are damp and getting hard use, they are at risk, and I never want to be at risk in the backcountry.

Edited by klags on 01/08/2012 12:57:57 MST.

> What my podiatrist told me is the ligament would not have hyperextended to the extent
> it did had I been wearing boots at the time because the ankle support provided would
> have restricted the range of motion.
And that is what he was taught at school, by a lecturer who learnt it from another lecturer ... It's always good to have something to tell the customer.

Which is kinda strange when you consider how many walkers have commented that they roll their ankles LESS with lightweight footwear. And howe so many of the world (and our ancestors) don't have any footwear at all.

One caution is in order however. The average suburbanite has WEAK ankles. Put them in boots and they will still have weak ankles. That is one reason casual basketball players damage their ankles on the court: they try to play like pros without the fitness.

As long as you try to 'support' your ankles they will stay weak. Start walking in light-weight foot wear and build up your fitness. There is no other way really. (Too hard for couch potatoes.)

Cheers

"The other side of it, at least speaking in general terms, is a boot will almost certainly be very thick at the sole. That means your foot has zero proprioception. Less so with a shoe, especially if it's of the more minimal variety."

The Inov8 Roclite 370/390 were a wonderful answer to this problem, Chris. Unfortunately, they stopped making the 370. I bought up a bunch before that and find that they are about as sensitive as anything this side of a racing flat, which is unsuitable for backcountry use. At least for me. They definitely inhibit the tendency to roll an ankle, something I am keenly attuned to for reasons having to do with past injuries.

Roger said "Which is kinda strange when you consider how many walkers have commented that they roll their ankles LESS with lightweight footwear. And howe so many of the world (and our ancestors) don't have any footwear at all."

I am one of those described above. Trail Runners are like freedom. The are so much easier to walk/lift each step, they articulate with the terrain much better, and they breath much better too. I made the switch April 2011 and have never looked back. Done about 15 different outtings in them and that has been from mildly hilly to the rugged Sierra's. I would recommend you get a pair of TRs and use them on easy hikes the first few times and work on your foot and ankle strengthening and you'll be good as gold. My heaviest trip last year was 27-28 lbs. at the start and the Solomon Comp XA5s I wore were the most comfortable I've ever hiked in on an over-night trip with full pack weight. Boots are a thing of the past for me. Trail Runners are essentially a light hiking boot without the wretched material around your ankle. The shoes I have have decent stone protection and a decent wide sole that is great for smooth trail or rocky walks. I find that if I do roll I can recover easier or that if my ankle does actually roll, it doesnt' hurt like boots do because boots hold your ankle stiff and so you get more pressure above the ankle where theres no actual pivot point. Don't be afraid or apprehensive. Many, many here wear nothing but TRs and that's gotta be worth something. Give it a try. It is certainly worth the experiment. All the best. And also, get the non-Gortex model of the shoe you pick. The mesh breaths excellent unlike Gortex.

Guys - youve been busy while i was weekending with my girls :)

@mikereid - yeah i know paddy (actually tired to lure him to hike w me this year but ended u going to Turkey) - thats a good idea. I would normally think about leaving my stuff at a hostel or something like that but to bury it is an interesting idea ....though not sure how i would feel about burying electronics and such....sometimes also its not a circular hike so...


RE the trail runners - I have been playing ultimate frisbee for 25 years now and my experience too has led me to move away from hi top cleats to low tops - and the ankle indeed has strengthened. Im concerned here due to the xtra weight and the fact that i dont get to hike that much so less chance to train...

@Chris Wallace - well my feet are pretty wide and also i have flat feet which mean that i need a really wide mid section (even when i wear my ortho insoles). unfortunately i didnt see anyone apart from NB doing width sizes. With normal sport shoes i care less since i use them for 2~3 hours at a time so can endure discomfort -my concern here is that hiking for 10 days in shoes that are just a bit too narow would kill me. Took a look at Innov-8, montrail and Altra and they dont seem to have widths....

also - some people mentioned here...how do runners work in protecting your foot from abrasion when scrambling or just going through rough terrain (@Roger - i know you bushwack alot)

EDIT: and regarding water...i am probably missing something cause i see people using runners for pretty hardcore stuff - but like the man said - on most hikes where i dont cross rivers but do encounter rain and some snow..how do you cope with your runner getting wetted out? I get the fact that you can maybe keep warm if you move all the time but isnt a WP/B shoe better??

Edited by mike_hefetz on 01/08/2012 23:43:07 MST.

Hi Michael

I gave up wearing uncomfortable shoes a long time ago. Just not going to do it. If the brand does not have shoes wide enough, I pass on.

> how do runners work in protecting your foot from abrasion when scrambling or just
> going through rough terrain (@Roger - i know you bushwack a lot)
That's the funny thing. With really light footwear one tends to 'walk softly' a bit more. So there has never been any problem even in the very worst terrain for us. Our feet have never suffered at all. But we seem to get better or more secure traction.

> how do you cope with your runner getting wetted out?
If there is just one river crossing for the day and the river bottom is sandy, I might take my shoes and SOCKS off and cross barefooted. But some of our river walks use the river bed as the 'track'. You would have to see the scrub on the banks to fully understand why :-) So our feet and socks and joggers can be wet the entire day. So? Never does our feet or our joggers any harm.

Ahhh - try to keep the sand out though! The sand can be the BIG problem: not only does it damage the wool socks (grind, grind), but it fills the shoe so after a while there is not enough room for your foot! OK, empty sand out regularly.

Cheers

Hi Mike
I hope the Turkey trip went well.
One of the things I like about lightweight footwear is that you don't have to worry about getting it wet, at least outside of the coldest months. Walking in wet mesh shoes does a pretty good job of wringing them out. I no longer take them off for stream crossings. As long as you carry a spare set off socks for in camp, you're ok.