Companion forum thread to:

Cottage Stagnation and Recent Gems

Ryan: Thanks for your thoughts and reflections on stagnation of the cottage industry. I've been BPing since the 70's, worked in a BP/X-C ski shop for a few years and led trips semi-pro in the 80's.

I've just joined BPL, been reading Ray Jardine's stuff, etc, because I've always had an itch to do the PCT and AT, maybe a few times each, my 11-year-old is excited to do more hiking with me, and I can't think of a better father-son activity.

I'm technically pretty darn competent (chemical engineer, built my own house and boats, have built my own computers, teach science and math, and can clean up a toxic-waste site with a Home Depot, a Radio Shack, a Grand Auto, and a credit card). And I have a deep pocket so developing a prototype and then knocking out a thousand of them is financially easy.

So why aren't I marketing something better than the Backcountry Boiler (more stable base, a pot stand on top to multi-task off that flame), or actually bring a wood-fired USB charger to market? Because:

1) My day job pays really well
2) My wife's job pays even better
3) I value time with my family more than time spent with suppliers and demanding customers
4) The creative rush for me is mostly statisfied when the garage prototype is done
5) every year I come up with patentable ideas but the fun part is coming up with them, not spending my life in court chasing some guy in Taiwan selling knockoffs on eBay

I've known lots of BPers who made their own UL stuff but never wanted to take it to market. Including people who were doing it in the 1940's.

That said, I am encouraged by what I've just become aware of in the cottage industry. As you mentioned, innovative financing and much greater visibility come through the internet. And because every niche group can develop a virtual community, what you created with this forum helps disseminate new ideas and products much faster (and cheaper) than an REI catalog ever could.

Just as my ability to research the BTU content of a fuel or find a source of titanium sheet metal or aluminum heat exchangers is so easy on Wikipedia. More importantly, if I want to learn how to vacuum bag carbon fiber / epoxy composites or see what others have done with clever stoves, there's youtube.

So to paraphrase Andy Warhol, maybe in the future, everyone will be their own cottage industry for 15 hours - until they make the equipment they wanted to have.

Agree on the Backcountry Boiler.
I like gear that lasts, works well, and looks good. Its not easy finding gear that meets that criteria especially when you account for personal preference.
I still look at weight but quality and function will weigh in just as much. I could go XSUL easily but I cant get with packs that don't last in the long haul and shelters that compromise too much to save weight. When there are alternatives that last and give better protection and still offer very low weight.
Not to mention the narrow range of fair weather so much gear is made for. I don't like having separate gear for every minor change in weather. Especially when that gear is expensive and takes up valuable space in my closet and thus my mind.
I am especially disappointed in pack design. They all seem to be variations of the same old Ray way pack and I have to say Im totally sick of dyneema grid stop!
Personally I would like to see more gear focused on sustainable materials and manufacturing but the market isn't big on that.

Very good article. I agree there hasn't been a lot of innovation.
Here's what I'd like to see.
1. Lightweight gear thats more functional. I don't really see the point of going from a 6 pound baseweight to a 4 pound baseweight. In the real world it doesn't make that much difference in your performance or enjoyment of a hike. On the other hand it would be nice if a 6 pound kit could be made that didn't involve the trade-offs in functionality and/or durablity that it requires now. Examples would be more light shelters with all around bug and insect protection, UL packs that can carry more weight when needed, etc.
2. I want to see some crazy new gear that opens up a whole new way of exploring the wilderness. UL backpacking meant I could go farther and faster. As I mentioned above we've pretty much reached the limit of this, now its time for something new. I'd like to see someone do an Artic 1000 type expedition with the UL rifles and fishing gear now available and some knowledge of edible plants. The challenge would be to see how far you could travel by combining foraging for food with what you carry on your back. I'd also like to see summer camps and more scout troops adapt UL backpacking. Imagine how much for fun backpacking cuuld be for a 13 year old if he wasn't hauling a 40 pound pack.

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Edited by wildlife on 12/27/2011 20:53:47 MST.

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Edited by wildlife on 12/27/2011 20:59:55 MST.

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Edited by wildlife on 12/27/2011 21:39:40 MST.

if anyone else said what was said in the article ... they would get skewered by the BPL faithful ... and mr jordan may still get burned at the stake ;)

my favorite comments ... hope BPL will forgive the short quote ...



you don't need to waste time and money storing (or disposing) gear you don't love, and you don't need to lighten your pack from 5.2 to 4.6 pounds.

......

he cottage industry reinforces that paradigm of gear that is "made in my garage with substandard equipment from sketches on paper scraps using an uncalibrated ruler and dull scissors."



the gear from more mainstream retailers is getting quite light and affordable ...

what matters is less the gear, and more the person anyways ... all that gear has one SOLE purpose ... for you to go out and have fun ...

Edited by bearbreeder on 12/27/2011 21:29:08 MST.

Great entry Ryan.

Edited by Eugeneius on 12/27/2011 23:22:32 MST.

"First, the pack. It was designed by Ryan Jordan and built by HMG. They should have it up for sale on the site soon."

That is a quote from a staffer at BPL.

When you put down a blanket criticism of practically the entire cottage industry without disclosing your own interest in the brand you are singling out and promoting, you have a conflict of interest - especially at a site that reviews the gear being put down!

I'm talking about normal, accepted, ethical rules of conduct.

This statement down below in quotes is simply untrue. Dyneema and Spectra Grid added to fabrics make the original fabric far more failsafe. At the SAME time that they make the fabric lighter, they make it stronger. It's not there for cosmetics. The comment below is laughable - the fabric has proven itself more than worthwhile over the years. Here's what Ryan says,

"They change fabrics to the latest new mylar sandwich or some finer denier of nylon with a mostly useless HMWPE-laced ripstop pattern (it's there for cosmetics, you know)"

Ryan Jordan might have a PHD but it sure does not speak truth to these fabrics. It is very easy to demonstrate with sharp scissors or a knife that these fabrics can be slashed and the dyneema or spectra fibers will remain unscathed while all of the fabric in between is cut.

Edited by wildlife on 12/28/2011 02:59:30 MST.

How far we come...I agree with the general sentiments here, though I could care less about the state of the cottage industry because I haven't really been looking for anything new to buy. Seems a little contradictory; searching for, and yet lamenting the lack of innovation in new gear, while simultaneously saying "you don't need the gear"...It does leave me scratching my head when I think about the history/trajectory of this site.

Considering that this was written by the man that pioneered a website largely based on ruthless ounce-counting and testing, writing about, and/or purchasing/selling just about every conceivable UL product ever made, this article seems to express an attitude that probably would've sounded significantly contradictory to BPL's general tone about 5 or 6 years ago. Wasn't BPL formerly the community of ruthless weight-weenies, nutjobs cutting labels off jackets, and zealots sawing toothbrushes in half and removing map borders? And suddenly "you don't need to lighten your pack from 5.2 to 4.6 pounds"? Didn't BPL build an empire, so to speak, by actively advocating the saving of that same .6 pounds? Is this the same Ryan Jordan that used to argue with GVP about a weight handicap in their SUL showdowns because GVP is so tall?

We're all certainly entitled to change...it's life. I've gone on the same full-circle journey described here. But how far we come. Round and round we go.

Seems a more appropriate slogan than "Pack Less. Be More" might eventually become "Who cares, just get out and enjoy". That's where I've been headed, anyhow...

Edited by xnomanx on 12/27/2011 22:10:34 MST.

For me, the key lines of this article were these:
"You don't need the gear, you don't need the debt, you don't need to further tax our resources, you don't need to spend your children's social security on your gear addiction..."

I firmly believe that UL backpacking is excellent training for the period of time we are entering. It is clear that we as a species need to ratchet things way back and find some way to reconnect with nature without overtaxing resources. In fact, we have forgotten that nature is the primary economy. I'm afraid that lots of people will soon realize that their "wealth" merely consists of digital markers for industrial production that will never take place due to lack of resources. One thing I will mention is that although it is one world and we are one people, it is better to buy american whenever possible (MLD, Gossamer, etc.). We bear the cost one way or another. If we import the cheap overseas goods, we inevitably import the standard of living, too.

"Seems a more appropriate slogan than "Pack Less. Be More" might eventually become "Who cares, just get out and enjoy". That's where I've been headed, anyhow..."

Although... I still care a little. I mean, I still weigh things when I'm bored/planning a huge hike. I just tend to shrug my shoulders and keep the gear I have after I put away the scale! And I think my personal slogan is "Pack less. Eat more."

:)

Hard to thrill.

Two quick comments about the article:

1) Thanks for making this one available to ALL of us!

2) I appreciate Ryan's sentiments, and I look forward to reading more of his writing.

About the weight: I think (and I might be wrong here) that Ryan is saying: we've lightened up our packs, now it's time to eat our cake too. At a 5 pound pack weight, it really doesn't matter if you gain or lose a half pound. The industry has gotten to a point where we can safely achieve sub-5lb packs without sacrificing everything, and for only a few ounces we can enjoy much more.

Backpacking light isn't being hypersensitive to grams, but a philosophy about function. I have a sub-7lb base weight – coming from 20+ pounds I was religious about it, but these days I care more about the experience. I like a 3-layer eVent shell AND a wind shirt AND I carry sleeping pants AND an inflatable pad. The NeoAir revolutionized UL sleeping pads: for 9oz I have a bona fide 3-season pad that gives me more comfort than anything in its weight class from 2009. When are we going to get more products like that? Cottage manufacturers, I'm looking at you – be revolutionary, not evolutionary.

Love this article. Nicely said Ryan.

Regarding the Porter Pack - regardless of the degree of input from Ryan on it's design (it should be noted that HMG already had a pack line out), he has no financial interest in anyone purchasing the pack so I see no issue with providing opinion.

"Regarding the Porter Pack - regardless of the degree of input from Ryan on it's design (it should be noted that HMG already had a pack line out), he has no financial interest in anyone purchasing the pack so I see no issue with providing opinion."


What do you know of Ryan's financial interests? Interests like these can be dynamic and ongoing and don't necessarily portend to immediate or visible dividend.

Yeah David, it was nicely put the way Ryan said HMWPE fibers in the grid of HMWPW grid farics are 'mostly' useless. It's simply untrue. There are as much as 9% to 13% of these fibers in the fabrics and they are there for far more than cosmetics as Ryan claims. He may as well say the dyneema mixed into the weave of climbing slings is there for cosmetics.

Edited by wildlife on 12/27/2011 23:52:45 MST.

"What do you know of Ryan's financial interests? Interests like these can be dynamic and ongoing and don't necessarily portend to immediate or visible dividend."

I guess I don't.

Edited by FamilyGuy on 01/02/2012 18:41:32 MST.

"it was nicely put the way Ryan said HMWPE fibers in the grid of HMWPW grid farics are 'mostly' useless. It's simply untrue. There are as much as 9% to 13% of these fibers in the fabrics and they are there for far more than cosmetics as Ryan claims."

I would agree with this. I think his point was that apart from fabric innovation, there is less and less innovation in design.

On the other hand, if the wheel has been perfected then why innovate in design. Clearly the next step would be fabric innovation.

Ryan did not design the packs he bought from me. I designed them. There was absolutely nothing about them I had not done before, and if there was, I designed it. Picking features out of a hat for your personal pack is not the same thing as doing design work for another companies products. Poor analogy.

Edited by wildlife on 12/28/2011 03:16:08 MST.

Well, the HMG packs are all very similar (hip belt, frameless with stays, same shoulder straps and padding, same fabric) so I guess the question would be what sort of input did Ryan provide?

Edited by FamilyGuy on 12/31/2011 10:12:52 MST.

Just my opinion, but I didn't read Ryan's commentary on "cottage stagnation" as attacking cottage folks generally or any cottage outfit in particular, nor as motivated by financial stake (if any) in a particular product or business.

Rather, at least from my perspective as a prospective user/customer, I took Ryan's article to be merely his personal judgement that "cottage" products in the past year seem to have become less "innovative" in ways that he (and/or others) would value, and less faithful to qualities than he (and/or other patrons) might hope to see.

After all, this must be the same Ryan Jordan who wrote the following comment, a real glowing ode, to the cottage industry a little over a year ago for BPL's "Outdoor Retailer Summer Market 2010: Introduction and Tribute to Small Ultralight Gear Companies not Exhibiting at OR" --

"I love this.

"We used to do the cottage roundup towards the end of the show. I'm glad we're doing it at the beginning now.

"I'm really, really happy about more options being made available to us by budding cottage manufacturers!

"It will be fascinating to now review the rest of what comes out of OR in the context of some of this really cool new gear from the little guys."

Copied from comments at: http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/orsm2010_kickoff.html

The general theme of the Ryan's commentary now -- a little over a year after his glowing praise for the 2010 cottage gear state of affairs -- regarding his concern about the "stagnation" that he now bemoans appears (to me, anyway) to reflect views he expressed at his blog a few months ago regarding "value" in "innovative gear" now, whether cottage or mass marketed, and how sparce that innovation has become.

Here's a link to Ryan's discussion of that issue at his blog:

http://ryanjordan.com/blog/2011/09/practical-natural-simplicity-backcountry-gear/

After reading Ryan's "Stagnation" commentary and then rereading his earlier blog musings at the above link, I was curious about how the current BPL staff picks (for 2011) compared to BPL staff picks of the past. It was an interesting comparison.

Like, for example, I couldn't recall that an SUV had ever appeared in any of those staff picks for past years, yet there was one listed as a 2011 pick (a 2000 Nissan Xterra SE 4x4)!

But that's OK. I like my 3/4 ton 4x diesel Ram PU, too.

Just can't wait to see one of the cottage outfits put out a "lightweight" SUV in 2012 -- hopefully with cuben fiber upholstery, carbon fiber body, and a wood-fired engine! /;>)

Seriously, though, I understand Ryan's "stagnation" article as a call for greater, or renewed, focus on creating "innovative gear" meeting evolving lightweight values described in his blog at the above link as simplicity, a concept he refines to mean a blend of "natural" and "practical" simplicity.

One thing I do not understand is why, in the "stagnation" article above, Ryan has any optimism at all that "mass marketers" can/will provide innovation he values when his blog states his own expectation (quoted below) that those "mass marketers" are incapable of hitting an innovative "home run" like a Tenkara fly rod or whatever:

"Mass market manufacturers are incapable of designing and marketing gear that blends both practical and natural simplicity because the concept is too hard to educate people about. You simply cannot appreciate the value of it, until you (a) experience it; (b) practice it; and (c) refine it. Mass manufacturers don’t have the time. The sales season is only a few months long, after all – and with the need to make sure they are addressing the latest trends in colors and fabrics and features – who has time to educate consumers – or allow them to experience the benefits of simplicity?

"And so, as usual, it seems like it’s up to the cottage industry.

"That’s not a bad thing."

Copied from http://ryanjordan.com/blog/2011/09/practical-natural-simplicity-backcountry-gear/

So, aside from Ryan's infatuation with Mass Market Mavens in the above "stagnation" commentary (probably brief insanity born of despair), I believe he is just calling on someone, anyone -- most likely cottage folks (new or old) -- to fill a gap by again producing gear that meets evolving needs and desires for "simplicity" gear suited to evolving "lightweight backpacking" values, like they've done often in the past.

Just one person's no doubt delusionary thoughts.

Edited by JRScruggs on 12/28/2011 00:46:43 MST.

well if you look at the "mass market"

youll notice that quite a few companies have very credible lightweight products

examples
- osprey and their hornet/exos packs
- TNF and their verto windhsell and packs
- REI/MEC/EMS and their very light minimal packs (ie flash 18, mec travel light, etc ...)
- jetboil and their new SOL TI which BPL did an excellent review
- everyone and their doggay has very light down and synth jackets now
- etc ...

just as a simple example the MEC reflex has 10-16 oz of down (depending on the size), a >50% down to weight ratio, uses 800 fill, and UL shell ... and is anywhere from 1/4- 1/2 the costs of a certain cottage brand name down jacket/quilt maker ...

note that many of these products come with very good warranties, or you can buy em and try em at a retailer with no questions asked return policies ... and often on sale as well

you can easily go UL with "mass market" products and often end up spending less as they are often on sale ... and still be able to return em after using them if they dont work out ...

whether one buys cottage or "mass market" is up to that person ... but those old REI threads slamming UL are way out of date ... you can go UL just shopping at mec/rei/ems/backcountry ...

I admire someone who is bold enough to contradict themselves. That said, this contradiction has me a little confused. Lets face it, this site is fueled by oz counting gearheads (reluctantly, counting myself as one). It has some of the more civilized and thoughtful forums that I know of, but I've become convinced that all the gear tinkering and oz counting taking place in the forums has less and less to do with actual backpacking. Its more like 'outdoor gear theory', which is admittedly fascinating. Its a great hobby. Its also a form of escapism when you are at the office and you would rather be in the mountains. The gear fetishizing helps us imagine we are actually out there, or to prepare ourselves for the the next time that we are. I'm talking from my own experience here, as I've spent a good portion of this past year struggling with injuries, planning long adventures that didn't happen, and endless gear tinkering/theory. It sort of has me wondering why I didn't pursue a career in fabric technology (?).

I've also spent a great deal of my time actually backpacking, hiking, trail running and more recently skiing and climbing. Its extremely satisfying to have all your gear dialed in, working as a system with as few and functional items as possible. I aim for this in all my possessions. When there is less to meditate your experience of the wild, adventures are more raw and beautiful. That said, I've actually noticed that all my (I like to call it) gearfectionism can really take away from the experience. Its seldom that I go on trips these days when new product ideas, purchases, custom designs etc. aren't popping into my head. Gear optimization is an endless process, with diminishing returns. I do get something out of this, otherwise I wouldn't do it. Humans are tool-users, and men are particularly tool-centric. Gear nerdery is satisfying (esp. for gear nerds) and I'd go as far to call it instinctual for some. My point is, I think there is more to be gotten out of taking a more experiential, less fetish based approach. Chenault's reflections over at bedrockandparadox.com are a perfect example. He gloats over his packrarft because it gives him another way of experiencing the wild, not because he likes how it looks on his spreadsheet or in his closet (although that may too be the case ;) The packrarft has no power when its sitting in your closet.
Similarly, McClalland's tips: he treats gear as just one means to the art of lightweight backpacking.

(Wow, didn't realize I was about to rant, but I guess the above article/rant got me in the mood.)

I originally intended to write a few simple things: the key innovations in lightweight backpacking were brought to light by Jardine long ago.

Next was Ryan's article 'clothing and sleep systems for ultralight backpacking' ( i forget the name. ) In a couple words: wool, windshirts, puffies, tarps, frameless packs

Perhaps Ryan has just gotten bored because much the forums have more or less just reiterated those principles in a 1000 different ways. Or, like someone else suggested, bitter since BPL's own attempts at the cottage industry were somewhat of a bust.

I might suggest that the lack of recent innovation has much more to do with the fact that backpacking is in the scheme of things a fairly simple activity. Its just walking through the wild for multiple days. As a species we are so far beyond surviving (in style) and with minimal weight while foot traveling. Thats why IMO we've gotten down to oz quibbling between 6 and 4 lbs on BPL--for those of us who choose to walk as a mode of wilderness transportation, we need to find a way to stay entertained when we aren't . For the newby, the information here is nothing short of an epiphany, but my point is that its an epiphany based on the collected insights of a rock climber/engineer/hippy adventurer some 20 years ago. Its no wonder to me all the interesting modes of travel that Jardine (quintessential gear nerd) has tried over the years.

I'm much more curious about the innovations taking place in other forms of outdoor adventure these days. For example, super lightweight ski touring boots capable of technical ice climbs. This presents far more of a game changer for wilderness adventure than a slightly lighter version of cueben fiber. http://coldthistle.blogspot.com/2011/06/part-2.html
Packrafts, another obvious example.

I know thats getting away from backpacking, but thats what I'm suggesting: equipment for backpacking is far less interesting/relevant to the activity, than other modes of transport like skiing, packrafting, biking, climbing/alpinism etc. Layering systems for ice/alpine climbing or backcountry skiing are far more difficult and vital to get dialed in than for the general three season backpacking that most BPL's do. So, yes, this is a suggestion to us who have been around for a while: 1) present the info to the newbie as effectively as possible 2) spend more of your indoor time with maps, less of it in the gear forums (as I continue to boldly contradict myself ;)

Other ideas: try skiing, biking, climbing, rafting...wing-suit base jumping (?!? ;)

I think cottage manufacturers are not to blame for the stagnation. We are, for still being preoccupied with the next big innovation in walking with a pack on and sleeping outside.

If this forum is about backpacking why don't we talk more about technique? Philosophy? Trips? etc. Despite my love for the site, I think the answer lies in that its always been a little bit more about gear nerdery and consumerism than actual backpacking. Ryan's suggestions as of late are on point, but this definitely leaves me wondering about what's in store for the future of this site and will we continue to take an interest?

+ 1 on Katabatic.

Edited by sgiachetti on 12/28/2011 05:50:49 MST.

This is my understanding of how it went..

Ryan had a pack design in mind (he's had it in mind for a long time) and asked HMG to build it. They agreed and we now have the Porter. In the interest of full disclosure, I tested several revisions of the pack and also provided feedback on it. I know I don't get any kind of sales commission and I doubt Ryan does either.

Also, it is my understanding that Ryan had asked another pack builder for something similar many years ago, and was basically told to shove it.

A big +1 to Serge and Craig W's posts.

Ryan's coming full circle perhaps, like many other people had or will. I definitely have. I don't think about gear almost at all any more, unless I am expanding into sea kayaking or snowshoeing, not about backpacking. I have a couple of good setups and options and now I just try to use them.

The same question that has been raised before: how can BPL continue to provide help to the "noobs" to move from those 60 lb packs to 10-15 lbs, while keeping the "already-converted" engaged? To me, the latter mostly means info on trips, routes, new forms of self-powered/combined travel, meet-ups, photos, and inspiration, ideally with updated forum software. It doesn't mean gram-weenie-ism, endless gear talk, rampant consumerism, and chaff for chaff's sake. My 2 cents.

I think the "cottage stagnation" concept isn't entirely fair. Backpacking involves a shelter and a backpack and something to sleep in; it's just walking in the woods. Materials like silnylon and cuben have been innovations, but where can you really go from there once you have already combined them? I'm sure there are more innovations, but for companies like Tarptent and MLD, they are making relatively light, relatively durable gear for people to actually USE, at a fair price and with great service. If that's stagnation, it sounds pretty good to me.

Edited by DaveT on 12/28/2011 09:57:20 MST.

"Despite my love for the site, I think the answer lies in that its always been a little bit more about gear nerdery and consumerism than actual backpacking."

+1

I stumbled upon BPL earlier this year when looking up gear reviews for backpacks. One thing led to another and pretty soon my pack weight was lowered significantly and trips (well, other than Uath where I carry all my water...) became much more comfortable. I drank the UL kool aid, and am thankful for this site for giving me the knowledge base to make informed decisions regarding gear.

On the other hand, UL equipment (and outdoor equipment in general) breeds rampant consumerism. Replacing a tent after only one use with a lighter, shinier model, buying the newest/lightest alcohol stove, or owning 5 or 6 packs for different situations proves this. In this sense, I agree with Ryan. I've come full circle from trying to religiously cut my weight by buying the newest and lightest to selling all of the extraneous gear in my closet. I don't need 3 packs. I only need one stove. My duomid is fine for year round use. I'm tired of having to pick exactly what I need for each trip out of my gear closet. I'd rather pick up what I have and go.

I don't write this to disparage those who enjoy backpacking gear as a hobby. It the reason BPL exists and I have gained invaluable tips and tricks from contributors on this site. But like everyone else mentioned, it's just walking in the woods, not rocket science.

Other than selling extraneous gear on gear swap, I'm going to make a more concerted effort to post mostly in trip reports, and the philosophy/technique sections. Or maybe I'll just shut-up and go for a hike.

I suspect the narrative mentioning 'you don't need to go from 5.2 lbs to 4.6 lbs,' pertains to everyone's personal journey as a outdoor enthusiast, and how that journey matures beyond the gram counting / gear replacing stage.

When you're moving beyond traditional hiking, the phase of buying a scale, replacing gear and sweating the grams is really important. I'm sure we all learned an immense amount from this period in our own lives and it's really important for anyone to go through. You learn how pack weight affects your outdoors experience, how a bunch of light items can add up to a heavy load, and what difference it makes when you're modifying gear.

There comes a point however when you've learned pretty much of these lessons and your time and money may be better spent elsewhere. Still weigh your gear and replace it with the best item when it wears out, but you no longer need to replace perfectly good gear just because there's something a smidge lighter. You can tone down the money being spent, and you can also reduce the time being spent on studying your gear.

As with anything in life, there are diminishing returns. Notice that Ryan didn't say that it doesn't' matter if you're at 52 lbs or 4.6 lbs. He said 5.2 lbs because someone who is at 5.2 lbs has almost certainly already spent countless hours learning the lessons, honing their kit and now they can enjoy the fruits of that by getting outdoors.

Edited by dandydan on 12/28/2011 11:06:01 MST.

Ryan,
Great article.. opens up much dicussion. Since I've been around for longer than almost all in the ultra light revolution, I figured I would add a thought or two.

As I told you a few years ago, Its time we turned ultralight from a marketing term, to an actual definition that would fit the industry, and participants better. The definitions I developed in 2008 fits: Ultralight- The lightest weight an individual can carry without effecting someone elses outdoor experience (hiking trip).

Its not the gear, but the experience level, ones own comfort threshold, physical condition, and natural conditions (weather, terain, seasons, etc.) which really determines how light some one can go.

I think materials have hit a plateau to where durablity with the lowest wt. is doing a re-orginization. Most of the gear has been out there for a long time; better/ lighter materials are the difference. Most gear designs have been out there for awhile also. It really comes down to the basics and our experience level.

The "Holy Grail" of ultralight backpacking is a spark within each of us to make the journey into the outdoors as enjoyable as possible with the friends and views we treasure so much, carrying just what we need as light as possible.

Your friend,
"Chef Paul" Fitzner
Etowah Outfitters/ Etowah Gear
etowahoutfitters@netzero.com

"Also, it is my understanding that Ryan had asked another pack builder for something similar many years ago, and was basically told to shove it."

Chris, what's your point here?

If we say the market has "stagnated" that implies that it should be "going" somewhere. My question is where should it go? What would qualify as improvement? I don't think we'll see any huge breaththroughs on the SUL fringe for example so I don't think weight reduction by itself is a place for improvement. On the other hand I think making light gear more capable is a good place for improvement. One example would be the HMG Porter pack. Its about the same weight as a frameless Golite Jam pack but way more capable. Another example would be the MLD pyamids. They are just barely heavier than a nylon tarp but offer more protection. Also both of these products are much more user friendly.

I believe this cottage constipation will be quickly cured next spring when the ZPacks XLax hits the market.

The writer appears to be having an inner simplicity crisis, where his thoughts on natural and practical simplicity are clashing.

Edited by jshann on 12/28/2011 12:25:16 MST.

Interesting post/thoughts, Ryan. Taken together with some of your other musings this past year, you seem to be at a number of crossroads, perhaps some conflicting, and searching for, or trying to refine, the direction in which you want to head. I'm enjoying the parts of your journey you've decided to share.

Not sure why you felt the need to take some swipes at specific gear makers (though, since you didn't name them, it's up to each of us to decide who you're talking about if we care to) - I felt that was rather unnecessary and didn't contribute to the points you're trying to make, but I've done such things myself often enough that I can't criticize you for it all that much.

Anyway,self-reflection is a wonderful thing. Thanks for sharing.

Edited by idester on 12/28/2011 12:14:19 MST.

Forgive me but I think it's comical that Dr. Jordan has taken a moment from his own, separate blog to criticize a perceived lack of cottage innovation while this endeavor, Backpacking Light, appears to this BPLer to be a rudderless shell of its former self. Original content at BPL has slowed to a late August high country muddy trickle. Gear store: no more. I urge Dr. Jordan and the remaining BPL staff to focus inward rather than accuse others of stagnation; more recent innovation lay in the MLD Exodus FS than in any non-forum content I've found relevant here in too many sad months this year.

"When you put down a blanket criticism of practically the entire cottage industry without disclosing your own interest in the brand you are singling out and promoting, you have a conflict of interest - especially at a site that reviews the gear being put down! "

This is a fair point. Even if there is no financial conflict of interest, there can be a perceived conflict of interest, and the owner of this site should avoid even the perception. That doesn't mean he can't have an opinion, but he should have added, in his piece (whether or not it is elsewhere on the site is immaterial), what his relationship was to this pack/HMG. That is standard practice.

articles from BPL where you WONT find anywhere else ... no one else does as comprehensive and thorough investigation of fact, and not just the standard rah rah rah, marketing rah rah rah

- Sleeping pad test where they measured the R values
- WPB tests where they did real measurements and not just take gore or polartecs marketing spiel
- jetboil tests where they contradicted the "established" BPL forum wisdom about jetboil being useless
- alternative raingear test
- frameless pack tests where they measured actual collapse of different frame types

part of the problem IMO, is that many BPLers seem to ignore the above ... they believe what they want to believe and are likely set in their ways and gear ...

fanboism exist in BPL as much as for any other gear centric forum ...

I would agree with some of the assessments made but maybe not some of his conclusions.

The HMG looks like a very nice pack but at a $275 price point I will never know and will have to see instead if the Golite Jam I just picked up for $70 on sale will work out better than the last few packs I have had. The same with a Kabatic quilt. Looks dynamite from here and also costs more than I pay for a month for rent and utilities. I can't do tarps like a lot of people so the MLD can be the best -gon out there but I will never know.

I guess what I would like to see is good, simple, strong and durably built gear at a decent price point. Like he says, cut all the extra crap off the pack beyond maybe a hydration sleeve, dual water bottle holders and maybe a back mesh pouch. I know there are a lot of tarp lovers out there but all of the poles and stake tie outs make me want to just crawl into a vented tube tent after about 5 minutes. And I am not saying that the tents are much better with all of the odd configurations and wasted geometric space. Is it so hard to just create a tent to keep me dry and with some venting that I can just crawl into and go to sleep?

But I try to keep it simple. I mainly use a wood stove and an alcohol stove that is actually the cosmetic top of a flask. Solite pad to sleep on. Sawyer gravity filter for the water. Yeah it may weight a few more ounces but I don't worry about and don't have to.

I still like BPL, learn a lot from here and have a membership now to help out.

Off the top of my head, some 2011 cottage gear innovations which impressed me were:

- MLD Exodus FS
- TarpTent StratoSpire (actually just ordered one)
- Zpacks Exo
- HMG Porter (interesting that three of these items are lightly framed packs/packs with stays)

Not be a downer, but I don't see anything too impressive with the Katabatic quilts. They look to be very nicely made and great quilts, but innovative?, Aside from their strapping system there isn't much new. Normal fabrics, normal down, normal shape. GoLite has been making similar quilts for years. What seems more innovative from me are the quilts from guys like Virga Outdoors and The Stateless Society that are at least using innovative 7D fabrics and trying unique designs like Virga's 19 baffle Wendego which holds the down in place a lot better than other quilts with half the number of baffles.

Looking forward, I hope Pat's Backcountry Beer hits the market in 2012. Serious innovation here:
http://www.patsbcb.com/beer.html

Edited by dandydan on 12/28/2011 13:27:31 MST.

Welcome synthesis of the history of the Ultra Light Gear industry over the past half dozen years. Someone had to say it so why not the host of the congregants? The development into this present state of stagnation is a natural one. They all took risks and suffered personal costs by participating as players. No one is eager to constantly put past achievements on the line with continual risk taking of everything earned. But this observation made by the author is not something we haven’t sensed the last recent two years or so. It acts as a rock thrown into a pack of dogs and the dog taking the hit yelps the loudest. By the way, we all have bias and self-interest. This doesn’t disqualify of us from observing fact and serving as witnesses. But the cross-examiners have brought some of this bias to the fore to allow us to give appropriate weight. Good article!

Edited by johnk on 12/28/2011 13:53:32 MST.

I have zero financial interests in any of the companies that make the gear that I promote, and never, ever, ever, enter into a contract whereby my ability to get paid depends upon the sales of a product. The only ones in the past that I've done so for have carried the Backpacking Light label. My financial interests lie a little bit in BPL (to the extent that I wish to sell memberships and offer adventurous education opportunities), but mostly in my consulting work - the vast majority of which lies well outside the outdoor industry and is focused on my "real" field of expertise (which FYI is NOT gear design), but lean business process design and implementation, and engineered systems for delivering potable water in remote, underprivileged, disaster relief, and combat environments (and no, I don't work for any manufacturer of water treatment products for outdoor users). Oh - and I am shorting the euro.

FWIW, I told Mike St. Pierre (HMG) that I needed a large pack. The Porter is what he came up with. I replied with a request to change the fit a little, to support a heavier load, strip off some features, and he sent me a new pack. As Dan said, don't confuse designing with specifying. This is an HMG pack of HMG design and they deserve full credit for creating a pack that really works - don't pass any of that credit on to me, please.

And, I paid full price for my HMG pack. I've paid full price for all of my McHale packs - two products that I've "promoted" extensively because they just plain work.

The HMG pack absorbs less water than my McHale as a % of pack weight, but a lot of this water weight appears to be absorbed into the McHale's harness, not *just* the fabric (the HMG fabric absorbs less water into the fabric, however, but it does have a more spartan harness). It's very low in the HMG. We'll put that data out there in the HMG pack review that's forthcoming.

In addition, my coatings on my 210d Spectra grid McHale packs have started to hydrolyze and are starting to peel. But then again, so are the coatings on the fabrics of my Arctic pack (this one is really bad - but it's been my packrafting workhorse), a little bit on my Pinnacle, and just starting on an MLD pack I picked up used. Such is the nature of using gear, and using fabrics with some types of PU coatings. I don't consider this a defect in Dan's packs - far from it. In fact, I rather like that Dan's manufacturing will outlast the (lighter) fabrics he uses. That's how it should be. That's NOT been my experience with most of the "SUL/UL" cottage packs. Every one of the failures I've had thus far in cottage packs has been from manufacturing, not fabrics (seams can't hold up to heavier loads - something that is unacceptable to me, even for so-called "UL" packs). That's why I'm critical towards the attention that cottage manufacturers are placing on fabrics. If they only put that attention towards manufacturing quality. They could learn a quality lesson from McHale.

Ryan

Edited by ryan on 12/28/2011 15:50:03 MST.

About the only downside of things getting better is that we come to expect that they'll continue to get better, at the same or a faster rate. The last 4 or 5 years have seen general substantial improvement in function/durability vs weight throughout the industry at all price points. There's no intrinsic reason why this improvement (which came after many years of stagnation) should continue at the same rate. That's not a problem, or the result of complacency; it's just the way things go. Probably work is being done now which, when various insights coalesce, will produce game-changing improvements similar to carbon fiber poles, Cuben fiber packs, and all the tent innovations we've seen. But it won't be as much in the realm of weight, as there just isn't that much more weight to be saved.

That said, for me the last year has seen significant improvements--among them Z-Packs' sleeping bags, packs, and shelters, the new JetBoil, and, though I haven't used it, the new Back Country boiler Ryan referred to.

Edited by swimjay on 12/28/2011 15:38:54 MST.

Ryan, it is not correct to generalize about how a 'McHale' absorbs more water than an HMG pack since I make Cuben packs also. Please compare apples to apples. The same goes with Spectra Grid. All of my packs are not made of Spectra Grid, or full dyneema, or cordura, or mixes of Cuben and polyester or spectra. These are choices the customer makes. I do not recall having any issues with customers regarding coatings on Spectra grid. I can't recall one, it has not been an issue. You have certainly never brought it up, yet you choose to for the first time in public?

Edited by wildlife on 12/28/2011 16:45:45 MST.

"Ryan, it is not correct to generalize about how a 'McHale' absorbs more water than an HMG pack since I make Cuben packs also."

He didn't generalize. He said, "The HMG pack absorbs less water than my McHale as a % of pack weight" He also indicates that it appears to be most attributable to the harness. HIS pack as a percentage of pack weight.

Ryan did generalize. He got caught making yet another statement without really thinking about what he's saying. It would have been far more appropriate to say Cuben Packs do not absorb as much water as woven Fabric packs rather than getting into a stupid HMG Vs McHale claim that is irrelevant. It's also funny how instead of addressing his untruths about spectra grid, he attacks the coating. This is pretty entertaining. Cuben Fiber costs at least twice as much as spectra grid fabric. Does Ryan expect these 2 very different materials to perform the same? How much has Ryan used Cuben packs? Can he see into the future regarding how well they will hold up? (I in no way mean to disparage Cuben here - am just pointing out that Ryan has less field time probably with Cuben than Grid).

Edited by wildlife on 12/29/2011 09:10:57 MST.

I must admit that I was a bit concerned with what I perceived as a lack of innovation after not being a regular on BPL for almost a year back in 2009-2010. Upon returning, I looked around hard to see what cool new stuff had come out in that year assuming that the pace would stay the same and all sorts of new goodies would be at my fingertips. Sadly innovation seemed to have plateaued. It was all basically reiterations and tweaks of previously designed stuff, plus lots of designs redone in the unsuitable .35oz/yd variety of cuben that has since nearly vanished. At the time, I was sad. I didn't think BPL could possibly keep my attention or that there was anywhere left for the industry to go strictly regarding backpacking. While I still believe we have hit a plateau where refinements trump large changes, I can't say that it's a bad thing.

I think 2009 and 2010 was a time when the collective group started rebounding/retreating from pushing the UL ideal to the limits of practicality. People started to focus more on improving efficiency of their 8 or 15 pound load instead of seeing if they can sleep on a 1/8" foam mat. I feel the cottage industry has responded accordingly, appropriately, and predictably to the momentum of the market we are all a part of. They are meeting the demands of the people.

More packs with light suspension are coming from companies that wouldn't have considered it in 2008 or 2009 and are the new frontier cottage pack makers are working towards. Heck, even BPL came out with the Absoroka Pack not terribly long after articles promoting sub 5 lb packs were all the rage. People are interested in carrying real loads comfortably in a light pack. We should see more in the coming year. From what I have seen, I think your accusation that cottage packs are ugly and poorly made is generally unfounded. There is a reason more people use ULA than any other pack on thru hikes. However, there is one cottage company whose packs I have seen being repaired trailside, and I have seen several from that company.

Shelters are trending towards either full coverage with modular bug protection (TT, SMD, MLD, HMG, BPWWD) and/or being tweaks the old Nomad design (Lightheart, SMD, Suluk ALLWEPT, TT). People are raving about the Stratospire and Solong 6 not because of weight barriers, but because they provide more value per ounce. More room and full protection at less weight. SMD even has a 34 oz $125 roomy, full coverage shelter. It's what the people want, so that's where creative efforts are going. Sorry if it doesn't excite you Ryan.

We already have a huge range of titanium pots to cook in and efficient stoves to cook with. How many ways can you make water hot? If people demanded a better way, the market would respond. Many of the cottage manufacturers and UL Ambassadors like Skurka just use a supercat and call it a day. For the limited people in the market for a wood stove, efficiencies and ease of use can be pushed a little higher, sure. If there was a significant enough demand for wood stoves, more companies would be more interested in making new awesome ones.

Sleeping pads are moving along nicely both from big companies and cottage ones. Bender is making highly regarded mats that are three times as warm as my old BA insulated aircore for about the same weight. The barrier to entry for making something like the new super warm neoair (R value of 5 i think?) is pretty high though. To say that cottage companies should accept the risk involved with something like this or sonic welding is pretty bold. Outsource a sonic welded backpack? Could work. The big companies have the ability to do this much more easily and efficiently than the cottage industry though, which is why they do.

With sleeping bags, you can see cost and weight savings instituted by Tim Marshall using karo baffles in his down quilts. Zpacks designed a strange but awesome quilt/sleeping bag hybrid. Titanium Goat and Thru Hiker are continuing to optimize fabric options. A breathable cuben is on the way too, although I don't see much point in it since breathable fabric tend to require little in the way of tensile strength, but more abrasion resistance. Either way, they are all moving forward. There are several other down quilt makers from the hammock world as well who provide alternatives to the expensive company that remains unmentioned. What sort of progress could you be looking for in this department?

One area that has been slow to develop is clothing. This is also an area where the big industries have a huge competitive advantage, so the cottage industry is wise to stay away from it. Midsize companies continue to be competitive though, like WM and FF. Clothing isn't going to change much and it isn't nearly as specialized as gear.

While saying economists don't have solutions may be true, it isn't their goal. I believe they focus more on understanding and explaining behavior from people and businesses. People's need for innovation is lower now than in 2008 when things were full speed ahead. As a market, we have settled on a desire to have our packs reasonably light with well performing, comfortable gear. The cottage industry is supplying us with that. They innovate and produce to meet our demands, not just for the sake of doing it.

Ryan, I am really sorry the cottage industry is not making strides to entertain you when you review gear. Are you worried that lack of excitement will hamper BPL popularity? There must be some serious cognitive dissonance going on since you are condescending to the cottages for not innovating whilst simultaneously patronizing the members of the community that drive the demand for innovation and support the cottage industry. I find it especially odd for you to say this when you and BPL have the history, resources, connections, and built in audience to be one of those innovators you seek others to be.

End of rant. Time to breathe, pack up my gear and head out for a trip tomorrow!

Edited by willspower3 on 12/28/2011 17:21:33 MST.

"Ryan did generalize. He got caught making yet another statement without really thinking about what he's saying."

Yes on both accounts. I do it all the time.

"It's also funny how instead of addressing his untruths about spectra grid, he attacks the coating."

I actually thought the coatings have held up pretty well, given what I've put the packs through. I have no complaints about minor delamination of the coating. I also agree with you that Spectra grid does indeed prevent catastrophic blowouts. I just think this is an incredibly small risk for the norm of ultralight backpacking, and that it's pretty tough to sell a poorly constructed pack that's going to fail in the seams under loading duress based on the merits of this - or any - fabric - unless the fabric is going to be the failure point in the pack.

"This is pretty entertaining. Cuben Fiber costs at least twice as much as spectra grid fabric. Does Ryan expect these 2 very different materials to perform the same?"

Of course not.

I do like that I can get a pack made of a hybrid CF that has similar volume and load carrying comfort and at a lighter weight, and that fits well, absorbs less water, and also prevents the small possibility of catastrophic failure, without too high of investment, though. My pack was only $275, which seems a bargain for what it offers.

The only wild card I see with this hybrid CF fabric - and I do see it as a wild card - is its longevity. It's new, so that remains to be seen. At least with some of the Spectra grids, we know what to expect out of them, and for the most part, they hold up well enough for a long time.

I think this article is a bit inconsistent, and I think Ryan's own preferences have crept into what he sees as stagnation. For example, he talks about tarps. Tarps are great, but I don't use them. 90% of the time, I hike in high bug season. Yes, I could deal with the bugs in a different manner, but I really prefer a tent. This is where the inconsistency comes in. It doesn't makes sense to say "you don't need to lighten your pack from 5.2 to 4.6 pounds" and then complain that there is no innovation. I agree, there probably isn't much innovation at that weight. That is because it is very difficult to make anything very different at that weight. You are pretty much assured of using a tarp, alcohol stove (or wood burner if allowed), etc. But once you expand the options, then things get more interesting. If you accept that a tent is a reasonable option, then the cottage gear makers were hugely innovative (again). The StratoSpire is a weird looking offset tent. Maybe someone has done something like that before, but you could say that about just about any innovation (for example software: Cloud Computing? Been there, done that a long time ago). My point is that the StatoSpire is an extremely innovative tent, and is just part of a long line of innovations in the world of tent making. Frankly, the big tent makers are simply behind, and remain behind in quality, price and value. It is rare to say that about any cottage industry, but it is true of tents.

I do agree that "the big boys" have made some big strides. It took them long enough. Many of the cottage tent makers, for example, were already moving on to Cuben, while some of the big tent makers finally decided to make a tent or two out of Silnylon. Yes, just making a product out of "the latest mylar sandwich" may not seem like innovation, but it goes along with designs that maximize its usefulness. The Hexamid tent jumps out in this regard, although there are other ones as well. You could say, for example, that YouTube is just a video sharing service made possible by the rapid decrease in hard drive cost -- no innovation there. Sure, but to someone who never shared their home movies to their cousin across the globe, it sure seems innovative.

In many ways, it is surprising how well the cottage gear makers have stayed ahead in many areas or kept close in others. One of the more innovative products in the last ten years is the NeoAir. This is an engineering marvel in a city known for that sort of thing (the company was formed by ex-Boeing guys). Nonetheless, this is an outlier. My guess is that if you polled most members of this site they would say that most of their gear is from cottage makers. Maybe they aren't interested in getting new stuff, but that is because the gear they have is so good, not because they think there is a lack of innovation.

Edited by rossbleakney on 12/28/2011 17:33:44 MST.

My guess is that if you polled most members of this site they would say that most of their gear is from cottage makers.

i seriously doubt it ... while many, or even perhaps a majority may have a piece of gear here and there which is cottage ... i think it more likely that when everyone on this forums, members and non-members alike, total up all the pieces of gear ... many of them will find a substantial amount, if not a majority come from more mainstream sources

count clothing, shoes, poles, tents/tarps, sleeping bags, hats, gloves, stoves, even yr compass ... etc ...

the simple reason i suspect is that more mainstream gear is getting quite light, you can try it, and most importantly ... its frequently on sale

Edited by bearbreeder on 12/28/2011 17:47:37 MST.

Right or wrong, this is getting ugly. I have lost all interest in McHale packs.

"the simple reason i suspect is that more mainstream gear is getting quite light, you can try it, and most importantly ... its frequently on sale."

Exactly. Not everyone can order 3 packs from cottage manufacturers and ship back the 2 they don't like (ah, the life of a poor grad student). On the other hand, since I live in Colorado, I can walk into a golite store, try on everything, and walk out with great gear at an extreme discount.

And honestly, there is something to be said for durability. Most of the larger companies have a lifetime warranty on their products, and while they may weigh more, they also (in my experience) last longer than *some* cottage products.

"I find it especially odd for you to say this when you and BPL have the history, resources, connections, and built in audience to be one of those innovators you seek others to be."

+1.

As suggested parenthetically in my previous comment, I'm curious as to the direction this online magazine will take in 2012. I remain an avid supporter of this community, but am highly skeptical of the journalistic focus of the staff and its founder, never more so than today. I'm very hopeful that Ryan will address the results of the EOY survey and provide this community with a reason to believe that the stagnation that has reduced non-forum BPL content to a weekly topic and a Clelland! reprint will reverse course in 2012. Anyone else agree? Or am I the only one feeling confused that the founder is throwing rocks at glass shelters...

I wouldn't count clothing as gear. I should have said as much. I meant to, but just forgot. You make a good point, though, that when you count all the stuff, a lot of it is not cottage gear (when you include things like stakes, compass, etc). But I don't really see the mainstream gear as catching up, with the exception of sleeping pads (which, for the most part, where never dominated by cottage gear makers). For the most part, the areas not dominated by cottage gear makers were never dominated by cottage gear makers. In general, they never even competed (e.g. compass). Off the top of my head, here are some areas where the cottage gear makers still make (in my opinion) not only the best stuff, but the stuff that is the best value (which again, is rare in any industry):

Shelter, Poles, Alcohol Stoves, Wood Burning Stoves, Cookware, Packs (although in the case of McHale, my "better value" may not be true, and be replaced by "you get what you pay for").

I'm sure I left out a few as well. In some areas (alcohol stoves, for example) I'm hard pressed to even think of examples of mainstream gear (i. e. gear you could buy at REI). OK, to be fair, after Googling, I did find one or two alcohol stove sold at REI (Vargo). But, no offense, isn't the "mainstream product" for that market a cottage stove (Caldera Cone)?

Ryan, I think you've outdone yourself this time. You should put your clothes back on.

Since I admittedly went a bit off-topic with my previous comments (which I still hope will generate some discussion) I felt I should roll a bit positive with 8 cottage products each of which I have purchased and enjoyed in the past year:

- Lawson Equipment IronWire
- Klymit Inertia X frame pad
- Exotac nanoSTRIKER
- Lawson Equipment cuben pack liner
- simBLISSity LevaGaiters
- My man Robert Kelly's Ti cathole trowel
- Millair Instaflator
- Four Dogs Bushcooker

The latter of which I purchased from BPL :) None of these items invented the wheel, not all were recently conceived, but each is innovative, IMO, for having reinvented it in a way that works for me. That's the joy of gear discovery.

Edited by lammers8 on 12/28/2011 18:34:35 MST.

NM

Edited by FamilyGuy on 12/31/2011 10:13:26 MST.

Great list Kurt, I like it. The Klymit entry is a great one, and it makes for an interesting case study. If those guys every perfect their technology, or improve it to the point where it makes sense for most insulated gear, it will be a huge game changer. In some ways, it reminds me of that gas burner wafer technology that MSR was working on (which seems to be just around the corner, like fusion power). If you can get it work, it would be a huge change. The fact that MSR (a relatively big company in the gear world) has engineers working on this is not too surprising. The fact that a cottage gear maker is doing the same thing is. Another thing that is interesting is that if it does take off, then this company will no longer be "cottage". In other words, if those guys can make a breathable sleeping bag that weighs a pound (including inflator) but insulates like a -10 degree bag, then my guess is the company would become huge (bigger than MSR). In that regard, they might be like software, in that today's cottage company is tomorrow's big behemoth.

Thanks Ross - just a sampler of my cottage gear but I do think Eric has a point, lots of brand name gear in my inventory too. Completely agree about Klymit, they certainly have the opportunity to move into the GoLite, MontBell et. al space if they continue to perfect the product...and I should say while I enjoy the Inertia, it still didn't join me for a week in the Olympics (NeoAir. Nuf said). My MLD cuben tarp was purchased this year to "replace" a SMD Gatewood Cape. Just nabbed a Rab Superlite Bivi to "replace" an OR alpine bivy. Been eyeing a Zpack to supplement my beloved MLD Burn...

The point here is that I couldn't disagree w/Ryan's article more, in that companies of all sizes continue year after year to provide items that improve - however incrementally - upon the items I already have and enjoy. (Some call that a habit). The Boilerwerks Backcountry looks awesome, and while I might dispute Ryan describing it as "on the market" currently, it's going to have to supplant my White Box stove...BPL Esbit wing stove...Venom stove, Bushcooker, Soto micro...each of which are ideal under very specific circumstances. To me, the state of the market is innovative and growing and I find the critical focus of the article that spawned this enjoyable debate to be misplaced. IMO.

Edited by lammers8 on 12/28/2011 19:14:55 MST.

I see that Ryan's pack has no pockets on the outside

Pockets add weight, decrease strength, provide path for rain water to get inside your pack,...

BACKPACKINGLIGHT
(PACK MORE. BE LESS.)

We have a small tabloid here that draws readers by publishing the most outrageous letters and comments ('teletalk') it can without being sued, and recruiting columnists from different spectrums who are articulate, but edgy and confrontational.

It has been a successful busines model, oft repeated in ours and neighboring states.

Liked the old BPL better; but the forums and occasional gear review and trip articles continue to provide very useful info. Still worth the membership price.

Note to Dan McH: Your New Year's Resolution should be to lighten up and never personalize. If you can live up to it, we will all feel gooder.

Good Hiking and MYOG madness,
Sam

I'm sure I left out a few as well. In some areas (alcohol stoves, for example) I'm hard pressed to even think of examples of mainstream gear (i. e. gear you could buy at REI). OK, to be fair, after Googling, I did find one or two alcohol stove sold at REI (Vargo). But, no offense, isn't the "mainstream product" for that market a cottage stove (Caldera Cone)?

ahh ... but ross ... the new jetboils is where its at ... who wants to fuss around waiting for stuff to boil ... simply light and WHOOSH ...

its my impression that quite a few people are moving away from the "fiddle factor" ... more "mainstream" gear is getting lighter these days ...

the "best' is all relative ... its what allows you to have the most fun ... plenty of people use light enough more generic gear that is "better" for them ...

Samuel, as long as Ryan keeps making blanket statements about the Cottage industry somebody should call him on it. In his rationalization for saying the Spectra Grid in Spectra Grid Fabric is there for cosmetic reasons, he makes this blanket statement,

" I also agree with you that Spectra grid does indeed prevent catastrophic blowouts. I just think this is an incredibly small risk for the norm of ultralight backpacking, and that it's pretty tough to sell a poorly constructed pack that's going to fail in the seams under loading duress based on the merits of this - or any - fabric - unless the fabric is going to be the failure point in the pack. "

He is actually saying the cottage industry cannot sew a pack together well enough to merit using a fail-safe fabric. I realize he is not referring to me, but it is sloppy to carpet-bomb the rest of the community. If he does not single people out that make lousy gear then he hurts all of them and serves only himself. It appears that somebody needs to review the reviewer. I have known reviewers in the past that have succumbed to such a callous approach and they are no longer at their jobs. I would hate see this happen to Ryan. I also think his approach to all of this leads to a race to the bottom. Rather than promoting any kind of health, ease and good feelings in the community, he is setting people on edge and against each other.

Here is a quote from his article;

" Instead, the cottage industry reinforces that paradigm of gear that is "made in my garage with substandard equipment from sketches on paper scraps using an uncalibrated ruler and dull scissors."

Then after trashing virtually the entire Cottage industry he picks his favorite. I won't mention who that is Samuel - I'll take your advice and not 'personalize'. What he is doing is bad form. I get the sense from him that he wants the industry at large to know he knows he's hanging out with kind of a dullard community and to not hold it against him.

Edited by wildlife on 12/31/2011 01:50:32 MST.

>> I'm sure I left out a few as well. In some areas (alcohol stoves, for example) I'm hard pressed to even think of examples of mainstream gear (i. e. gear you could buy at REI). OK, to be fair, after Googling, I did find one or two alcohol stove sold at REI (Vargo). But, no offense, isn't the "mainstream product" for that market a cottage stove (Caldera Cone)?

>>> ahh ... but ross ... the new jetboils is where its at ... who wants to fuss around waiting for stuff to boil ... simply light and WHOOSH ...

Yes, but the convenience factor for canister stoves has been there for a long time. The greatest breakthrough in that area was when they made the canisters self sealing (so you didn't have to leave the stove on the canister). The addition of Jetboil style technology increases efficiency, but at the cost of even more weight. I can't imagine someone switching from alcohol to canister because of the Jetboil (or something similar). They both have their strengths, but Jetboil technology changes nothing. Canisters make sense if you are on a long trip (or a medium sized trip with several people) have a good handle on the amount of fuel in your canister and prefer the convenience (at camp). Alcohol makes sense if you are on a short trip and want to lower your overall weight. The use of Jetboil technology means that you probably have to worry less about the amount of fuel, but other than that, it actually complicates things. Just as there is a point where canisters make sense (from a weight standpoint) there is also a point where the Jetboil stuff pays for itself (from a weight standpoint).

>>> its my impression that quite a few people are moving away from the "fiddle factor" ... more "mainstream" gear is getting lighter these days ...

Yes, but this has always happened. There have been plenty of people who have tried various ultralight techniques and then decided not to bother. But I'm not confident that mainstream gear is catching up with cottage gear. My Pocket Rocket weighs about 3 ounces. It is about ten years old. I know there are lighter ones, but not much lighter. The canisters haven't gotten any lighter (which is the main weakness in the system). So for stoves anyway, I would say the mainstream folks have lagged behind. You can get really nice alcohol stoves that can heat really fast (or at least fast enough). I gave away my first alcohol stove because it was too slow. I couldn't imagine doing that with my Thermojet or Caldera Cone.

I keep going back to tents, in part because I really like tents. I bought a double walled tent this year that weighs 15 ounces. The thing is, there are others out there, that are similar (some single walled ones are lighter) but I chose that one because I liked the design better. Can a mainstream tent maker come close to that? I don't think so.

I think the best example of what you are saying is the NeoAir. This is a breakthrough product, in that it caused a lot of people to move from their lighter system (closed cell foam) to an inflatable. In some ways, though, this is the reverse of the "fiddle factor" and more the "comfort factor". A good example of "fiddle factor" would be Black Diamond poles, especially the new collapsible carbon fiber poles. But if you just want a fixed length pole, or if you don't mind fiddling with twist locks, then Gossamer Gear would be my choice. But other than that, I can't think of any cases of mainstream gear replacing ultralight gear because the mainstream gear became really light.

Ross, I had to chuckle at this line:

"I can't imagine someone switching from alcohol to canister because of the Jetboil (or something similar)."

I actually made that exact switch a couple of months ago and love it. I've had other canister stoves that I never used much, but the jetboil ti is such a beautiful -system- that it's a delight to use, and it's finally low enough in weight that I can justify the couple of ounces over an alcohol setup.

Instead, the cottage industry reinforces that paradigm of gear that is "made in my garage with substandard equipment from sketches on paper scraps using an uncalibrated ruler and dull scissors."
Ryan Jordan

This is a sad statement coming from a man who has spent the better part of the past decade publishing a website magazine that reviews cottage industry backpacking gear.

Dull scissors??
I just bought myself a brand new pair of heavy duty, professional, sharp scissors. Just in time, phew..

I took Ryan's comment, "made in my garage with substandard equipment from sketches on paper scraps using an uncalibrated ruler and dull scissors." as hyperbole - an exaggeration that has figurative, not literally truth to it. And it was funny.

So many people have an inspiration and interest in making better / different / lighter gear. It is rare that they are also skilled welders, machinists, seamstresses, combustion engineers, material scientists, and quality assurance managers. I'm actually impressed by how MUCH some people develop in all those areas over time.

Will many of them be able to quit their day job and retire to life of surfing like Chouinard? No. But if they can enjoy it as a demanding hobby that more than pays for the materials and tools - great! Other hobbies - bowling, boating, BACKPACKING! - don't do that.

I don't know. It's an interesting statement, to be sure. I have found it true for some cottage gear I've gotten, and not true for others. I'd say that I've found it untrue for the majority of cottage gear I've bought over the last 3 years, which I've found to be meticulously made and durable for the amount of time I use it (which, admittedly isn't a lot).

I'd be much more interested in chatting with Ryan on why he feels this way - what brought him to write that. He's an articulate guy, and a thoughtful guy, and pretty easy to chat with. This forum limits us a lot in trying to have an exchange of thoughts and ideas. His first response in this thread seemed a bit defensive, the second much less so. I'd be interested in hearing more.

Edited by idester on 12/29/2011 11:36:57 MST.

Dave: I stand corrected. :) Actually, the more I think about it, the more it makes sense. I personally wouldn't care that much about the fuel savings of a Jetboil, but the convenience of it all is appealing. One of the things I don't like about my Pocket Rocket is having to fuss with a homemade windscreen. A Jetboil is definitely more convenient. Similarly, for alcohol stoves, this is one of the things I like about the Thermojet and Caldera Cone.

Kristin: Very good point.

I have thought about innovation and where it comes from quite a bit. I work in an industry (software) that is extremely innovative. Every day someone makes something that is just a bit different, or radically different than what came before. A big part of that is because of the cheap cost of the equipment. If I want to open up my own muffin shop, I have to spend thousands of dollars on equipment, not to mention rent. On the other hand, if I want to write software, I can do it "in my garage" or better yet, in my living room (my garage is cold). The funny thing is, while many software companies started this way, and have a "started in the garage" story, much of that is a myth. People like these stories, even though the truth is quite different. Google is a great example of this. The incorporation papers for Google were signed in a garage, but that was just for show. The hard work had already been done in the comfortable classrooms at Stanford, funded in large part by federal grants.

Google also serves as a great example of how innovation often comes from big companies. Although there have been lots of new ideas coming from independent folks, a big chunk of the innovation comes from universities and big companies. There are similarities of both factors in the outdoor world. You really can't expect someone to develop a new fabric in their garage (although stranger things have happened). It is far more likely to come from a big company that can afford to hire lots of researchers and buy lots of equipment (or from a university). The NeoAir is a good example of this. It is quite likely that other people had this idea, but didn't have the money or equipment to pursue it. An example similar to Google is Black Diamond. They are constantly coming out with new products, because they have the money to throw at it.

Nonetheless, there is still plenty of innovation in the cottage industry. I don't think it is any surprise that it happens a lot with tents, backpacks and stoves. These are all items that are fairly cheap to make and tinker with. If anything, it is surprising how well many items (like poles from Gossamer Gear) stack up against items from bigger companies.

In general, cottage gear makers in most industries are not known for innovation, but for quality. For example, Bose may make very innovative speakers, but few audiophiles would say they are top notch. To get top notch, you have to spend a lot of money to someone who hand crafts each speaker. I think the same is true with lots of high end outdoor gear. If you get a pack from McCale, it probably won't be especially innovative. However, it will be outstanding, which is why he is still in business, and widely respected, after all of these years.

What is most surprising, perhaps, is that the cottage gear makers provide great value, as well as quality. I can buy stuff (and have bought stuff) from MLD, but I would be the first to say that it isn't necessarily a great value (I could get by with lesser quality, but substantially cheaper stuff). On the other hand, tents from TarpTent and Six Moons Designs (to name a couple) stack up well against anyone's tents based on price and quality. There are trade-offs with every bit of gear, but those cottage gear makers provide, in my opinion, the best value in the tent world.

But other than that, I can't think of any cases of mainstream gear replacing ultralight gear because the mainstream gear became really light.

there are people here who use "mainstream" packs to go UL ... TNF verto, ospreys, granite gears ... or even those not so old go lite ions or others ...

stoves ... jetboil is the obvious one, the various canisters .... you can easily be UL without using alcohol or esbit

tents/tarps .. well they sell ID at mec for quite a while now so thats a bit more mainstream .... many here use the golite SLs ... terra nova in uk makes quite a few very light tents ... a decent amount of people use the BA light tents ... just because you dont have a MLD cuben tarp doesnt mean you can go UL

poles ... there are plenty of carbon poles on the market ... you dont need to use the LT carbons to be UL ... some people want that replace me at REI if anything happens warranty, and things DO happen to poles

clothes ... its gear ... and most people use mainstream brand clothes

sleeping ... WM is pretty mainstream, marmot heliums are a well respected UL staple bag, golite has their quilts, rab makes very good bags, montbell is well used ... etc ...

the reality is that if you look at gear lists here .. the majority have quite a bit of "mainstream:" brand gear, and many are going UL just fine ...

whats important is having gear that works and is light enough ... not the latest cottage gear that BPLers go crazy about ... and using that gear to have fun ...

I have quite a bit of cottage industry-made gear: tent (several), pack (several), sleeping pad, rain gear, mitts, gaiters, alcohol stove, lots of smaller items, and have found all of it outstanding. The only time I had a quality issue (6 years ago, so I won't mention names), a small section of stitching started coming apart after several months' use. I emailed the manufacturer. He asked me to send it back. Within a week, he fixed the problem and returned the item, all for free! All the "cottage" gear makers with whom I've been in contact have provided outstanding customer service, much of it beyond the call of duty. As a bonus, all the ones I've dealt with manufacture their gear in the USA. (Not all the cottage manufacturers do, but they do disclose the information on their websites if it's made elsewhere.)

I wonder if Ryan was having a bad day when he wrote this article?

Well hmmm that was pretty much not-so-encouraging and left me flat. What is cottage industry and even better American made if not by definition starting small? Keeping it that way may very well be a choice so there is possibly more time to be where these people started out; in the out-of-doors. So perhaps it's partly about priorities. One thing I've found invaluable from these small businesses is inspiration in my own DIY projects. I'm going with a grateful approach for those currently working hard and taking financial risks to come up with products and business models. I've enjoyed supporting it.

During the last year I've been actively lightening my load. And a lot of that truly is because of BLP - reading what others have done, what could be done, how it can be done etc. I do not intend to go SUL, I really don't know if it's possible for me. Might blame the Finnish climate.

Either way. I come from a scouting background, still do it and I have noticed one thing. When I go out with my scouting buddies, versus alone, the pack weight tend to creep up. It does this because: I carry additional gear, because I want to contribute, I'm stronger (did they trick me?) etc. We also want to do something, once out there, so we'll take an axe, some rope, a snow shovel... We make a fire, and we cook food, real food, tasty stuff.
It must be the same for others too. You start packrafting, climbing, canyoning. The weight will increase. But it increases for a cause. You can do more. This is where the LIM philosophy belong. You lighten the load as much as possible, then go out. All this internet tinkering is theory, the real stuff happens outside.

So the motto "Pack less. Be more." is true, it's just people misunderstand it for 'Who's the lightest of them all' when it should be, who can enjoy them selves the most.

ps. YMMV. I realize some just want to do big miles, sleep some and do more miles, if so, then SUL might very well suit you.


Then we have my latest hobby, the one that will solve my gearfreakism - MYOG; and while doing that, I am truly grateful for this this site's real gem, the forum.

Daniel,

You hit the nail on the head. As I get into the things that I like to do, I find that the gear that I need is either not available or way overpriced for my needs. For me, I turned to myog. I get to do things that I enjoy - I get to research and I get to build. If I am lucky, then I get what I want (in gear that is) My seams may not be straight and it may look a little funky, but it works for me and I didn't have to shell out $$$ for a McHale :)

I remember as a woodworker I was asked to make a toy box for a friend of mine. The design he wanted was terrible, I was unmotivated and hated every moment of it. This was the last thing I made for someone else. I wonder if a little of this is happening in the cottage industry. At first you are the innovator and then you get customers and responsibilities - is the spark gone? creativity gone? did you sell out to the man?

IMHO,

Dave

"I remember as a woodworker I was asked to make a toy box for a friend of mine. The design he wanted was terrible, I was unmotivated and hated every moment of it. This was the last thing I made for someone else."

That's really amusing

Yeah, customers can be a real pain, demand unreasonable, be unsatisfied regardless

I don't agree with Ryan's premise that Cottage Manufacturers are stagnant, but I thought his essay and people's responses were great.

Keep it up! And people, try not to have thin skin...

I became of member of BPL for why?

Ryan, you really wax and wane (or is that warp and woof).

There is no way to cut cuben fiber with dull scissors!

holy smokes gunna agree with Eric ;)

as an owner of an Osprey Exos, BA air core pad, BD carbon poles, Exped air pillow, Solomon trail shoes, MSR pocket rocket and an REI sub kilo sleeping bag. you can get to a fairly decent base weight (12lb for me with a filter pump)

the only cottage-ish i own is a TT contrail.

making the leap to a quilt or better bag and chemical water treatment i could probably be at 10lb almost exclusively from REI available products

I also disagree that they "broke the mold"

Kelly Kettle designs have been around for a while. he just made it lighter.

I disagree.

I like the innovation of the cottage industry.
I like tarptent's notch, MLD's exodus with frame and trailstar in cuben.
I love my mld cuben solomid!
I love my zpacks exo backpack, at 12 oz it's very comfortable, functional.
I like my epiphany cuben quilt where I can adjust the loft and so use it for a
wide range of temperatures. ULA has new packs. Where is the stagnation.

I think you guys just have too much gear and have become jaded.
There is great innovation going on out there.
Screw it all let's go backpacking!

Edited by anthonyweston on 12/30/2011 00:18:25 MST.

Small rant.

I think focusing on grams to SUL is kind of absurd. Especially if you don't use skin out, the thoretical base weight doesn't really matter when walking. I don't cut labels, I can cut straps, but that's because loose straps are anoying. Othervise I do think in terms of %, but cutting 3 grams of labels and cord out of a 112 gram wind jacket, that's 2.6%, not sure if you'll even sence the 3 grams, given you might have needed the cord function. Talking base weight, the standard deviation of clothes and consumables will easily eat up the labels.

That said. Yes one should lighten ones load to the extent it's possible. Like people do when it's critical, say on a longer trip/expedition. But seriously, are people really in such bad shape, that lightweight backpacking isn't possible?!
One should though, be careful to consume more gear, think twice on that one.

Lots of thoughts on the article and all the comments, especially after having been a very active member here since the beginning and involved with UL for more than 14 years. Wanted some time to contemplate before I said anything. In many ways this is a painful discussion, almost as if we are having to look back upon our decade-long obsession and question the legitimacy of spending so much time going bonkers over all those things.

In reading all the comments I felt a great inner conflict between the philosophy that Ryan is advocating (and that he has been deeply reflecting on for quite a few years now, especially in his blog) of keeping life simple and non-wasteful and non-damaging, and the philosophy of being involved with an activity in which gear is a big part of enjoying that activity, thereby spending too much time thinking about gear, and yet the focus of that activity is to get away from the trappings of modernity and its "things". A paradox that is very, very difficult to resolve. How do you love simplicity and frugality and efficiency while at the same time loving gear, too?

I don't agree with Ryan's premise that Cottage Manufacturers are stagnant, but I thought his essay and people's responses were great.

May I suggest a different approach to the problem that seems to be afflicting the entire UL movement, including a great number of UL cottage manufacturers and BPL itself? Perhaps it is the very UL philosophy that is stagnant, and not simply the technicians implementing it?

I think we have reached the same crossroads that manufacturers like The North Face, Sierra Designs, Patagonia, and Marmot encountered when their early designs were no longer the revolutionary game changers they were at the beginning. So, like them, has UL run out of steam?

My guess is that the crux of the problem is the conflict between UL as a way of life and philosophy versus economic and reputation interests. When UL is practiced purely as an approach to backpacking without regard for protecting self-interests other than safety, ability to move, and enjoy your particular activity then it grows innovative simply out practical necessity… you simply use what works and toss aside that which doesn't. It never accumulates. At its very purest your belongings would consist of no more than a single pack (or two at most, when considering winter) with one set of essentials and no more. As some said earlier, you would just grab your pack and head out the door without endless hours calculating weights, materials, design, etc.

What do you do, though, when you also simply love gear for gear's sake? It doesn't fit into the UL philosophy… anything that is extraneous or duplicated immediately makes the philosophy conflictual. Ryan is one of the most guilty in the UL community in this regard… constantly promoting simplifying and discarding what is not necessary, and yet over the years has probably used more different kinds of gear than most of us will ever see (not meant in a disparaging way… I am sure a lot of us here would love to try out all the different gear he's tried if we had the chance). In this article for instance he promotes the MLD Trailstar, but that was definitely not the first time he nominated a certain product as the bees knees. Over the years I recall him saying the MLD Duomid, the Black Diamond One Shot, the BPL Nanotarp, the ID SilShelter, the GG SpinnTarp, and others as "the best". We all have done this, so I'm not trying to paint Ryan as worse than any of the rest of us, but it does call into question our reasons for going UL besides just to lighten up.

One of the things that impressed me immensely about Glen Van Peski (I met him last year and we've been in touch for over 10 years) was that he does almost all his hiking with one pack and one pack alone… his trusty Murmur. That's it. Everything else he deals with as contingents along the way, adapting what he has to the situation and making do. I've tried reaching this way of thinking, but my gear obsession (which I've lately been doing my best to completely rein in) and also my, as Andrew Skurka wrote in an email reply to me, "packed fears", keep me heading to the outdoor stores and loving so much of what I see. Admittedly, like Doug, I don't get out as much as I'd like to. Having been first ambushed by a major earthquake earlier in the year, a completely disrupted life, then getting big healthy problems has made it hard to get out as much as I would have liked. Heading to the outdoor shop in the real world or online is a kind of candy; it relaxes me and allows me the closest I can get to the natural world that I love so much that is possible when getting out there is an infrequent option.

So the question is, what should the UL philosophy reflect beyond backpacking? Ryan has often written about carrying UL over into everyday life, and here I point specifically to the amount of stuff we haul around in our daily lives. Having tried myself to get rid of what I don't need I can say that it is far more difficult to do than any hiking trip is.

What happens though when we begin to live our lives according to this life of simplicity? It means we no longer support cottage manufacturers as much and buy less. Cottage manufacturers are far more sensitive to supply and demand than the big companies are. They can't take the same risks, especially in the bad recession we are in right now. Remember they have to support their families, too. Witness the Brooks Range Rocket tent… major problems began cropping up with the cuban material they used, so the company had to pull the product. Since their reputation depended on that particular product and the material it used, the problem with the material basically ruined their reputation, especially for a product that was as expensive as the Rocket was. What, too, happened to Wanderlust Gear? Dancing Light Gear? Or even the aborted preparations for Colin Ibbotson's new cottage gear company "TrampLite"? A lot of them must have financial and personal reasons for not making it and deciding to discontinue. Lack of innovation is not the only reason these manufacturers disappear.

The funny thing about having gone UL is that when I was a "mainstream" backpacker I owned one bomber pack, one pair of Italian heavy leather boots, one tent, one stove, one sleeping bag, and a few assortment of clothes. It is only after going UL that my closet has overrun with stuff. I began buying obsessively from cottage gear manufacturers, entranced, as everyone else, by this new "magic" gear. But the spell is wearing off and I'm coming to my senses. I miss maintaining my single pair of boots for ten years running, miss the attachment I felt for my 10-year-old Lowe Alpine Contour 60, miss the wide variety of conditions my The Northface Tadpole was able to handle without my ever having had to regret taking it. My gear WAS simple. The only thing that UL opened my eyes to were weight and all the possibilities opened up in trying to bring the weight down. I have felt guilty and frustrated with the "weight" of things in my home. It's decidedly not simple anymore.

Edited by butuki on 12/29/2011 23:52:52 MST.

Good post, Miguel.
Re Colins 'TrampLite' business. I've read on other blogs, that he decided setting up a business would take up too much of his time, and he would rather spend that time on long distance treks. That kind of fits well with your post.

Mike, yes, I had read that, too, about Colin's decision to make a priority of his expeditions rather than his company.

We are beginning to sound like a chapter of Gear Ruse Obsessives Anonymous Naysayers (GROAN): "I believe in simplicity, but want all the versions that make it so!"

Thank you Miguel for your late, but oh so honest comment. Appreciate it.

The last chapter was a suprise to me and a lightbulb flicked. Even though my girlfriend has hinted it; what you say is true. A couple of years ago I too just owned one setup of everything... I am, like many others it seems, not too interested in one season gear anymore.


edit: to name.

Edited by sandstrom.dj on 12/30/2011 02:43:48 MST.

@ Miguel, that is a long reply to Jordan's letter.

I think there's several things in the letter and the various replies (I must admit I haven't read all of them);
There's the concept of 'Living Simply' (as Patagonia put it on their Tee's) - this could include 'Living Ultra Light'. There's the activity of Ultralight Backpacking. There's loads of gear - both traditional and ultralight. And then there are the people interpreting the concept, doing the activity, owning the gear, and ultimately deciding what they want to do with it all.

My personal response?
I love gear. I love hiking and climbing. I do not like weight. I do not like complications. I do not like clutter. I am trying to live more simple. I am incorporating everyting into my own lifestyle.
You may like my lifestyle, you may not. You may have other ideas! To each his own.

I think everyone here has been to a large degree "jaded."

Taking a one well known persons statements and analyzing them in detail results to a lot of “out of context” interpretations, beyond what the author was trying to say. Being overly sensitive to a mention of some part of a person’s gear not being 100% does never imply it is not satisfactory. Nuff said about the interpersonal stuff.

I think that Ryan is mostly correct. The raw fact is, backpacking in general is an ancient necessity we all practice in terms of a modern “sport.” Ultralight backpacking is fairly new as a sport, but, our forefathers often would go into the wilderness armed with only a knife. Indeed, some aboriginal tribes still like to practice this ritual. So, it is unfortunate that we think of UL, SUL or even XUL backpacking in terms of modern society. Perhaps it is because we are used to thinking in those terms. Modern society means manufactured goods. We want, and need, specialized equipment for our treks. We need specialists in many fields to produce the variety of goods we want. They, in turn, need materials modern society produces. Cast off cans, super high strength synthetic resin bonded carbon fiber poles are just two examples showing the wide variety of materials we want.

In any sport, the equipment needed for that sport gets refined, and results in better performance, but, more specificity, a narrowing of focus for that gear. Should we go back to old-style bundling of gear into our sleeping bags to carry it? (Not a good idea, but, this is taken directly from a picture of some cave-men carrying packs I saw at the Smithsonian when I was a kid. Hell, it may be the next new wave…)

UL(including anything less than 10lb base weights) is not really about cottage or mainstream manufacturers. It is 99% knowing what it is we need to do with the equipment. A steel striker is worthless without a flint. A screwdriver is worthless without a screw to turn. Technique is where we all shine. Because we know how to make do with less by making less do MORE. Adding a screw driver to a striker means only to grind it down on a rock so we have a dual purpose tool…striker and screwdriver. “Pack Less, Be More” is catchy but it should be Pack Less, DO More.

Technique is very unpopular with anyone trying to make money from this sport. As much as we talk about it, the sport has been refined for as long as the first person decided to improve his tool and carry it, rather than simply using a found rock or stick. There is little we can try that has not been tried before. The touted NeoAir is only an air mattress with a reflective skin inside. But it is far heavier, infinitely heavier, than no pad. Using scraped together piles of forest duff works for me (an example only, don’t take my words out of context.) But, it took more modern materials to allow the invention of an air mattress.

Typically, technology cycles between the thoughtful and the materialistic, inventive and the incorporative. As a sport, we have some good stuff out there, too much, too many manufacturers wanting a piece of the pie, so to speak. Afraid to innovate because what they are selling works OK and they are afraid they might loose even 1/4 point of market share.

To get much more out of any gear we have to turn to a more systems approach. Using a pad as a pack frame, for example. The Backcountry Boiler is a nice piece of kit. But, what else can it do? It boils water. It therefore sanitizes water. Can it be improved? Sure. But, it serves no other purpose, as is. As part of a system approach to backpacking it fails. The ONLY thing it does is boil water. A systems approach dictates some changes. You cannot take the lid off and cook a stew in it, nor wash it (or can you? Maybe I missed that part.) You cannot eat out of it. It is fairly bulky, taking valuable space in the pack. You cannot fry a trout in it. Nor cook foraged greens. Nor provide structure to the pack, etc.

A system approach is simply knowledge, and something we try to disseminate freely. The Backcountry Boiler example clearly shows several lacks of the current design and suggests several improvements, immediately. A taller slightly slimmer design helps pack ability and pack support. A screw on lid, a grate on top to support a pot or pan, a second cover to be used as a fry pan, etc. Focusing on a single item is great. But, focusing on the entire pack system provides a series of improvements making it an excellent pack system, taking it out of the realm of ordinary gear (even if it does weigh a LOT less than the Kelly Kettle…this is, after all, only modern materials.)

In closing, I think the next big breakthroughs in pack gear will be a widespread systems approach to more and more gear. The up side to vendors will be they will sell more because their gear will be integrated and perform better as an integrated system and weigh less for equivalent performance. At least until the legendary unobtainium is invented. Then we can go through the whole cycle all over again. Like I said, we are all a bit jaded.

Nice post Miguel.... I also needed a couple of days to digest this and frankly other conversations regarding our UL world. I am also conflicted by the seemingly divergent directions that Ryan took in his essay. But to me it all is starting to makes sense.
1) I think UL, especially on this site is almost 100% gear focused. But in my mind gear is a means to an end, not the end. For me UL gear has been an enabler to acomplish high mile trips in a minumum of time. But now marginal improvements in gear will change little in the pursuit of my goals. So, for me, the current stage of stagnation, if there is one, is not a problem. There are much bigger improvements that I can make in nutrition and fitness, areas that get minimal attention on this site.
2) I also think that there is a hoarding mentality that we see in the UL community and I am as guilty as anyone. But it came to an end after my thru hike. I have a very optimized setup and little need for multiple kits. But I still have way too much "stuff" and will work to UL my total gear, not just what I carry.

Finally I suspect that I'm not alone in this thinking which could be why there has been some tension in the forums over the last few weeks. But this thread has, for the most part, been one of the most civilized and productive in a long while.

A Recovering Gear Addict

Edited by gg-man on 12/30/2011 08:43:21 MST.

I realized last night that maybe I should address the innovation in fabric coating on the new Dyneema X Dyneema Grid fabrics. It is not a cottage product but the cottage has taken to it. The cottage may like the coating as much as the fabric. This coating is a new generation of coating that even glides across sewing tables more easily. It remains to be seen how this coating holds up long term but it is not business as usual and should not be compared to what is wearing out on Ryans packs - whatever brand they may be.

I would like to note also that the actual dyneema or spectra grid that is woven into the new generation and older of spectra grid fabrics can be said to represent kind of a quality mark for the fabric that goes beyond the grid itself. I have over the years tested many of these fabrics for the tear strength of the underlying nylon fabric first by removing the grid in one direction or the other. I was always pleased to see that even the underlying fabric was of high quality. Fabrics can vary tremendously - some even tearing like paper - so I have always tested. But that reminds me, I have also heard of fake grids in which the grid was made of only a polyester yarn. I have never seen this though.

Edited by wildlife on 12/31/2011 01:54:44 MST.

I wrote about this a little bit on my blog but essentially, I think this is an obvious point Ryan is making and that he said it all wrong. Major manufacturers are now finally making reasonably ultralight gear—that much is obvious. Now that they are, the cottage manufacturers better step up their game or die in the face of companies with real R&D budgets and access to industrial designers and processes.

This could have a rallying cry to tell the cottage manufacturers to get real and save the cult of small business that has existed around the ultralight backpacking community, but instead he derides and insults them.

But then perhaps stirring the pot was the whole point, but let's not attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity.

What you are seeing now is that major manufacturers are pushing toward truly ultra-light while still providing durable products. This is pushing the cottage makers to produce gear that is slightly heavier but far more durable than in the past (remember spinnaker?).

We all benefit from this.

amen ...

the true ULers who are truly "elite" are people like ueli steck and his ilk who are pushing the BOTH the physical and technical limit of what can be done ... they may not be "UL", but their gear sure is for what one does with it ...

they also mostly use "mainstream" UL gear these days ...

remember that for these people ... 12 saved oz isnt just a bit of weight or BPL bragging rights, it literally is several days of melted snow and thus life ...

even the great skurka used much golite gear on is great trek ...

the positive thing about having the uelis of the world be media sensations, is that everybody wants to use their gear ... and mainstream gear becomes even lighter as a result ...

Edited by bearbreeder on 12/30/2011 12:26:27 MST.

There are always solutions. We actually have an opportunity here to be more of a collective and advocate the purchase of more homegrown stuff.

Edited by wildlife on 12/31/2011 01:56:48 MST.

"I think if we are going to take our country back we are going to have to start making things here."

It seems that far to many people in a position to make decisions are only interested in making one thing, money. Whatever makes the most the fastest...

By the time it all falls apart "they" will be set.

Sorry for editing Larry. It's like pulling the rug out! I don't want to go overboard - will just stay in the boat. Talking about taking the country back seems so 'country' and quaint! But yeah, the 'they' you speak of are pretty set, but there must be a good size line trying to get into that boat!

Edited by wildlife on 12/30/2011 15:17:21 MST.

I always try to buy homegrown if I can....

Edited by FamilyGuy on 01/02/2012 18:44:42 MST.

Just kidding. But I do think it is an appropriate topic. I do believe that there are many here who prefer to purchase from a "cottage" manufacturer at least partly because they are making something here.

But, I've always thought that a manufacture that posts a lot on the internet looses more than they gain. They are just too big of a target for those that complain about everything. This forum may be an exception. And I know the president of another company (not hiking related) that felt he received more benefit than harm from his forum, but he never did convince me. You open yourself up when you become part of the online community. I have a lot of respect for those that do.

Yeah Larry, I hear you, thanks for shairing about the friend you know. I don't think people that are for real have much to worry about. We have a very strange world coming up on us and so far I think it has been a big benefit to be part of an older more real generation. In my next life I won't have that advantage.

I actually know of a person from the old daze that has a rather large company now and I would never know from what I see on the net that he is even there. It's interesting.

Edited by wildlife on 12/30/2011 16:34:45 MST.

NM

Edited by FamilyGuy on 12/31/2011 10:15:23 MST.

Larry, I'm becoming less and less the opening up kind, but that company I'm talking about is called........... ........

Edited by wildlife on 12/31/2011 02:00:22 MST.

"Dan McHale has been outsourced"

That's pretty funny, actually.

Edited by FamilyGuy on 01/02/2012 18:45:26 MST.

Chris Wallace said,



"This is my understanding of how it went..


Ryan had a pack design in mind (he's had it in mind for a long time) and asked HMG to build it. They agreed and we now have the Porter. In the interest of full disclosure, I tested several revisions of the pack and also provided feedback on it. I know I don't get any kind of sales commission and I doubt Ryan does either.

Also, it is my understanding that Ryan had asked another pack builder for something similar many years ago, and was basically told to shove it."

Dan McHale's version;

Chris, I figure you are referring to me here. I was all set to make a pack for Ryan for his Arctic 1000 trip. The pack was going to be my basic widely spaced daisy chain design like the 4 or 5 other McHale Packs I had made for Ryan but made with Cuben Fiber. I was waiting for the Cuben Fiber and it came late and I recall that it had to come from Cuben directly. Well, the fabric came and I was blown away by the lightness of the fabric Ryan had chosen and immediately sent it to him 3 day UPS, at my expense, after probably emailing him that there was no way I was going to make a pack out of it. I did not tell him to shove it. I felt I had been put in a bad spot. He later, after the trip told me that it was a good thing he did not take a pack made out of the too light Cuben that he had chosen. He told me as it was, that he had damaged the ULA pack enough that it was obvious the Cuben fabric he had chosen would not have made it. I basically avoided and prevented a situation that would have been bad for Ryan, myself, and Cuben Fiber. That's my story.

Edited by wildlife on 01/27/2012 08:47:47 MST.

Miguel -

I don't know which I like more, reading your thoughtful musings or viewing your gorgeous photos! I think it's time for me to go through my gear again and shed some of it. I use so little of what I actually have, and it's the same stuff, trip after trip. Either that, or I need to do different kinds of trips... I actually put a lot of the gear to use by lending it out.

I have always said, the only way to get what you really want is to make it yourself. I never wanted to get into the gear business, I only did it as a way to help others enjoy some benefits of lightening their load and getting out more. At the time, it seemed like there was nothing light available. If it was today, there are so many options, I'm not sure I would even have to make my own gear. I DEFINITELY would not be starting a gear company. Colin is a wise man indeed.

Innovation doesn't have to be gear, it can be skills and techniques. Hiking with people like Clelland, Rietveld, Skurka and others (actually, I can learn something from anybody), can increase knowledge that both saves weight, and/or increases safety and comfort/convenience, and gets me out more.

> This is a sad statement coming from a man who has spent the better part of the past
> decade publishing a website magazine that reviews cottage industry backpacking gear.

Agreed. I suspect that if you looked at an Oware, MLD, and OES tarp, you'd have trouble determining who made which one without the logos (assuming they weren't one of the unique ones to that company, of course; any bozo would be able to figure out who made the one with five sides, for example ;))

I still contend also that the apparent lack of innovation has a lot to do with the fact that true innovation is hard. I've been in software development for 18 years, and I've been doing photography for over a decade; in neither have I seen a whole lot of true innovation. Every once in a while you see something clever and/or new, but not often.

MLD is among the more innovative cottage companies, and yet they don't come up with truly new stuff all that often; does anyone seriously think it's because Ron Bell is a dork? Or maybe it's just hard to top a Trailstar? My theory is the latter, rather than the former, because if Ron were a dolt, he wouldn't have come up with the Trailstar in the first place.

That's not to single out the Trailstar over, say the Echo or StratoSpire... which reminds me, Henry Shires amazes me. He's *always* coming up with new stuff. I don't know how he does it, because as I pointed out, innovation is hard.

One big hindrance I see is that there isn't much evolution on the fabric side. The cottage manufacturers have done some amazing things with the fabrics available, but they're not in much of a position to really drive fabric development.

And yet, HMG pulled it off. The fabric they're making their packs from is pretty nice stuff. That a relatively new company like HMG can do that is pretty cool, if you ask me.

> One thing I've found invaluable from these small businesses is inspiration in my own
> DIY projects.

I think this is one of the best responses I've seen on this thread.

I'm drawing similar inspiration, but rather than making gear, I'm working on marketing my photography. It's going slowly... but it's going.

Thanks and agree. Sounds like somebody was just having a bad day, or disappointed with Santa ;) or just plain holiday blues. The courage of the cottage industry entrepreneurs only begets more ideas and future products and paves the way for others. Where would we be without them? Not having nearly as much fun I'm sure; discerning details (shopping) and application (heightened outdoor experience). Ultimately appreciation has overarching reach over negativity. Lighten up! Outdoor gear has been pretty much economy proof anyway.

> Thanks and agree. Sounds like somebody was just having a bad day, or disappointed with
> Santa ;) or just plain holiday blues.

It happens to everyone sometimes. I guess Ryan's human after all ;)

Even though I don't entirely agree, I can see where he's coming from in some ways. One of the downsides to the UL stuff where innovation is concerned is with features. For example, how much can you really innovate in a rectangular tarp? :)

Ryan -

I smiled when I read your comments. You sound like sombody who is getting "older".

It's natural that as we age we "reflect" instead of jumping in wildly excited about our passions... like you did in your early writings on BPL. All a healthy progression in my opinion.

Perhaps we should graph the degree of dissension in the readers comments with the contributers age (cottage manufacturers excluded of course...) and see if there is any science in this thread!

Ryan,
Very interesting thread that you started here. However, I have a challenge for you in return that should be very timely for the New Year. Let's be more scientific about it and lay out the lightweight developments to see how they have ebbed and flowed over time.

Since you and BPL are uniquely qualified, I wonder if you'd be willing to plot out the "Lightweight Timeline." It could include the big three and a few other cottage industry products. Since shelter and pack development are tied to fabric developments (which can ONLY be done by the relatively larger manufacturers), it also needs to be included.

- Fabrics (SilNylon, Spinnaker, Cuben, Epic, Dyneema)
- Packs (G4, GoLite Jam, ULA's various models)
- Shelters (tarps, poncho/tarp, catenary-cut, TarpTent's Rainbow, Six Moons Lunar Solo, The One, MLD Trailstar, Hennessey Hammock, Warbird Hammock)
- Sleeping Bags (Montbell's Stretch bag, Jardine's synthetic quilt, Jacks R Better Poncho down quilts)
- Stoves (Vargo Triad, Brasslite, Caldera, Bushbuddy)
- People/events (Ray Jardine's original book, Dixon/Jordan's launch of BPL, MLD launch, backpackinglight.co.uk, Flyin Brian's Triple Crown, Scott Williamson's PCT yo-yo, Skurka's Great Western Loop, HyperLite Mtn Gear)

Geez...just writing a few examples for each was challenging to decide what was memorable (and what wasn't), what the original pack name was (versus a later tweak), who to list first (no point in that). It will likely be a GREAT list that is FOREVER incomplete.

This could be nice interactive project with the membership since we have a real brain trust out there that loves to voice their opinions and correct others mistakes. ;)

What do you think?

Tom

Edited by TomClark on 12/31/2011 10:06:04 MST.

Great idéa. I think the timeline should extend way further back in time. Obviously one would have to generalize going way back. I think it would be very nice with some perspective. Think about how lucky we are, having cuben fiber, silnylon, down etcetera, compared to what the same set would weigh with wool, cotton tent, walking stick.

I think it's sad that nowadays, going UL is less about technique, as you can cough up the money and buy the "rank". Like everything else these days...

Ryan states early in his article;

"In reviewing, in the past 12 months, what has come out of (what used to be) the most exciting part of the ultralight backpacking niche - the cottage industry - all I can do is yawn."

I feel strongly that BPL is very much a part of this so called "ultralight backpacking niche - the cottage industry" and although now providing more along the lines of a service rather then gear BPL is still very much a product.

Ryan should direct his critical review inward and ask himself if BPL has lead by example. Ryan should be asking in review; in the past 12 months has BPL offered anything new and exciting or is it all BPL members do is yawn? Having been at the forefront of the "backpacking light" movement and a true catalyst to many of the so called cottage industry companies Ryan should focus his effort on helping BPL lead by example and not simply cast stones by offering criticism of others.

For 2012 I challenge Ryan to redirect his critical review inward and change BPL for the better. Not just talk about change,but actually make changes that keep BPL new and exciting. Lead by example and just maybe in December of 2012 Ryan will be reflecting back on the best year ever for the "ultralight backpacking niche" including BPL.

Edited by thomdarrah on 12/31/2011 10:06:15 MST.

"For 2012 I challenge Ryan to redirect his critical review inward and change BPL for the better. Not just talk about change,but actually make changes that keep BPL new and exciting. Lead by example and just maybe in December of 2012 Ryan will be reflecting back on the best year ever for the "ultralight backpacking niche" including BPL."

Very well put, Thom! The gist of several of RJ's posts lately has been that BPL is getting ready to do just that, but actually making those as yet undefined changes is yet to come. Until that time, casting stones at those who have contributed so much to making BPL's philosophy achievable rings hollow indeed.

a big +1

I recently sold my interest in a cooperative because it became uncooperative largely due to online communication without regard for tone. It's very easy to write what one would never say face to face. Especially with the written word it's important to be mindful. The extent of emotional charge can easily be misinterpreted and any charge is difficult to take entirely seriously. Better to stay with a demeanor that can be fully heard.

"Lots of thoughts on the article and all the comments"

A deeply insightful post, Miguel. Anybody who reads it is going to have some thinking of their own to do.

"The extent of emotional charge can easily be misinterpreted and any charge is difficult to take entirely seriously. Better to stay with a demeanor that can be fully heard."

I am having difficulty understanding what, specifically, you're getting at here. Would you be willing to be a bit more direct?

Mike W: "Perhaps we should graph the degree of dissension in the readers comments with the contributers age (cottage manufacturers excluded of course...) and see if there is any science in this thread!"

OK, Mike, start your graph. I just turned 76 and would no longer be backpacking if it weren't for the lightweight gear provided mostly by those supposedly "non-innovative" cottage industries! It's quite true that the big mainstream corporations are lightening up, but when REI advertises a 3 1/2 lb. pack as "ultralight," they have a long way to go. The several pounds that would be added to my pack by using even the lightest "mainstream" stuff (and I did look!) would definitely stop me from backpacking, something which I have absolutely no intention of doing until I literally can no longer put one foot in front of another. Besides, I far prefer to deal with small businesses which do all or most of their manufacturing in the US.

Thom Darrah: "Ryan should direct his critical review inward and ask himself if BPL has lead by example. Ryan should be asking in review; in the past 12 months has BPL offered anything new and exciting or is it all BPL members do is yawn? Having been at the forefront of the "backpacking light" movement and a true catalyst to many of the so called cottage industry companies Ryan should focus his effort on helping BPL lead by example and not simply cast stones by offering criticism of others.

"For 2012 I challenge Ryan to redirect his critical review inward and change BPL for the better. Not just talk about change,but actually make changes that keep BPL new and exciting. Lead by example and just maybe in December of 2012 Ryan will be reflecting back on the best year ever for the "ultralight backpacking niche" including BPL."

I strongly agree! Except for a few articles, mostly the general information in the SOTM articles, nearly all the useful info I've gotten from BPL has been from the forum, not the articles.

One thing, for sure: Ryan has certainly woken us all up out of our post-Christmas funk (too much turkey?) and given us much to discuss! If that, rather than slamming cottage industry, was your real aim, Ryan, you have certainly succeeded!

Edited by hikinggranny on 12/31/2011 12:50:01 MST.

Sure. The three paragraphs that follow "yawn" in my reading of it carry an edge and therefore (imo) a charge. I just couldn't imagine talking with anyone of the cottage industry folks in person, looking over their wares and saying these things in the same way. I'm also of an entirely different opinion. Within their means they are pushing the industry forward. Criticism to me is like being handed a slug. Better to drop it or thoughtfully hand it back. :) People just respond better to positive encouragement. Anyway thanks for asking. Cheers.

Edited by Janefree on 02/02/2012 10:23:01 MST.

"I still contend also that the apparent lack of innovation has a lot to do with the fact that true innovation is hard."

Truly, and it also requires going out on a limb both financially and reputation wise, something cottage industry types are not in a position to undertake lightly.

Based on what I have observed with Tarptent and ULA, I also wonder if perhaps they have moved on to a process of incremental refinement of existing innovative designs, somewhat akin to the Japanese philosophy of "Kaizen". I hope Miguel will respond to this thought and either expand on it or let me know I have misunderstood the concept.

Edited for poor choice of words.

Edited by ouzel on 12/31/2011 14:22:36 MST.

"Anyway thanks for asking. Cheers."

And thank you for responding and clearing up my confusion, Jane.

Edited by ouzel on 12/31/2011 13:49:13 MST.

I'm glad there's Zpacks. I really like how his newest pack uses a tent pole for the frame. That's real UL thinking.

>> OK, Mike, start your graph. I just turned 76 and would no longer be backpacking if it weren't for the lightweight gear provided mostly by those supposedly "non-innovative" cottage industries! <<

Mary -

Ryan, BPL and the cottage manufacturers didn't invent Light weight backpacking. My introduction to light weight backpacking was 40 years ago when I, by chance, bumped into a young American backpacker in the Canadian Rockies. We camped together and talked gear (what else) and it turned out his full load was under 23 pounds. He slept under a small tarp which he threw over his sleeping bag and set rocks on the corners of the tarp to keep it in place. It poured that night and he was nicely protected. His pack was amazingly light by the traditional standards of the day. I can be pretty confident in saying that he didn't have any "cottage" gear but he did have a lot of common sense.

I've never read books by Jordan, Jardine or anybody else for that matter. I didn't need to, this guy was my inspiration and light weight is not hard to figure out. I will agree that it's easier now than 40 years ago but it was always possible.

If you think that you wouldn't be hiking if it wasn't for the gear produced by the cottage industry then you are not very innovative. A case in point is Jamie Shortt's cheap UL gear list. Under 10 lb. base from places like Walmart. No magic here.

http://www.lytw8.com/uploads/Cheap_Ultralight_Gear_List.pdf

"If you think that you wouldn't be hiking if it wasn't for the gear produced by the cottage industry then you are not very innovative."

I think you didn't note Mary's age; otherwise you're going a bit over the top here, Mike. Ounces, never mind pounds, are increasingly important to staying in the game as you age. At 76, she's doing darn good to even be out in hills, and part of it is due to a relentless focus on shaving ounces. I'm not far behind her, and I'm here to tell you I couldn't do the type of stuff I'm still doing if I were carrying 3-4 extra pounds, which would be the case if I went the mainstream route for my gear. I doubt very much that you will find truly lightweight gear suitable for "old bones" at Walmart, Sports Authority, et al. Then there's the philosophical satisfaction of buying something made in one's own country in economic hard times. For younger folks, including Jamie Shortt, the weight penalty may well be feasible, but for older folks I doubt it. If you can come up with Walmart equivalent of a Neoair, Trailstar, ULA OHM, GG LT4's, etc, I would be the first to climb on board were it not for one problem I have with Walmart in particular. It has to do with how they treat their employees and the corollary that most of what they sell is made overseas.

Let's go back 7 years and revisit Ryan's reflections on gear design:

Kanso: A Blueprint for Better Gear Design

BPL, pioneered the magazine without a magazine, a gear shop without gear, and outrageous shipping costs for stupid light packages.

As far as I can tell they specialized in making items once, out of season, in odd sizes, and almost never doing a second run.

I'm not convinced Ryan knows enough about business to slam those who serve up the goods year, after year, after year.

Stock less, charge more was a failure.
The articles in the last three years are largely *yawn*

BPL itself has no idea what it is, what it wants to be, or how to get there.

Edited by redmonk on 12/31/2011 14:45:24 MST.

Mike, I know, John Muir went out with just a few things in his pockets. Etc. Frankly, I've never wanted to be quite that spartan. Ray Jardine's first book was published in 1996, many years after I bought my backpacking gear. I didn't even hear about him until 8 years later. In the circles I backpacked with, 40-50 lb. packs were normal and we were warned about the dangers of taking less. (I still hear that a lot!)

Some of us (especially those of us with "old bones," or more specifically old joints) need a lot more than what Muir had to be comfortable. For example, I'm now to where I need at least a 3" thick sleeping pad to be able to sleep. I defy you to find one outside of KookaBay (Bender is one of those "non-innovative" cottage folks, who got his start here on the BPL forum) that is 3.5" thick, really warm, and weighs just under 13 oz.

Tom (and Mary)-

No disrepect intended and I'm very aware of Mary's (and your) age. I'll soon be 60 and you two are an inspiration to those of us that are getting on in years. I can only hope that my legs still have another 10-15 years left in them and I already understand the need for light weight gear as we age.

I will however point out that Montbell, Cascade Designs, Granite Gear are not cottage industries. You'd still have your NeoAir if you didn't shop the cottage industries.

I think what Ryan is saying (and I agree) is that the gap between these mainstream companies and the cottage industry manufacturers is closing. Don't get me wrong, I support the cottage industries and like the personalized service they offer but until one of them invents a new "feather" it's really hard to get excited with what they are doing. I want them to get me excited about something really innovative as I'm at a stage of my life where I can aford to buy the latest and greatest but I just can't get excited about most of what I see.

It wasn't my intention to post the link to take swings at the hive or make personal assumptions, rather get some insight into his standards of gear design. Much of what he said in this recent article reflects similar ideas expressed by Jordan going back several years. There is a consistency here of thought on his part that I felt worth noting. I agree that some of what has surfaced this year hasn't been "mindblowing" or "revolutionary", but I don't have to be blown away nor do I possess a paining desire or thirst for amazing gear year after year, especially considering there is an excess of decent and brilliant gear alike currently available to us to get out with.

Backpacking is so sickeningly simple and beautiful at its core, it is a bit of a wonder why more gear doesn't mirror its purpose. I'm blown away by simple design, the Trailstar is one of those pieces that I find amazing not for all its bells and whistles, which are none in this case, rather for what it lacks. The old BPL trappers mug is another piece of pure and simple design that I enjoy, both aesthetically and functionally.

I think Ryan's yawn is probably towards gear in general and not so much any lack of "innovation".
Inovation is sumwhat subjective but nothing ground breaking has come along- but I think a lot great new designs have come in the area of double wall shelters and ground pads. The saying goes the simple life aint so simple.

"I'm not convinced Ryan knows enough about business to slam those who serve up the goods year, after year, after year."

Maybe not the gear business, but check out his rates for guiding. He's apparently been doing it since at least 2005 and is still in business, since he's fully booked for 2011. I'd say he's found his niche, one far more lucrative than designing/manufacturing gear. More power to him, since the clientele is obviously predominantly made up of 1 per centers. A textbook example of trickle down economics at its finest. Voluntary redistribution of wealth always works best. I'd say RJ is a very astute businessman indeed.

"I think what Ryan is saying (and I agree) is that the gap between these mainstream companies and the cottage industry manufacturers is closing."

Most definitely, Mike, but the innovations came from primarily from the cottage gear makers, guys who spent a lot of time "boots on the ground", figured out the innovations to take lite-itude to the next level, had the skills to execute their concepts, and were willing to take the financial risks involved. As I see it, those who have stayed in business are perhaps a bit more risk averse now and prefer to incrementally improve proven products rather than take big risks, be they financial or reputational. Good examples are the ULA Circuit, or lighter shelters and packs made from a proven design but with lighter fabrics. And there are still innovators, like Henry out there as well.

"Don't get me wrong, I support the cottage industries and like the personalized service they offer but until one of them invents a new "feather" it's really hard to get excited with what they are doing. I want them to get me excited about something really innovative as I'm at a stage of my life where I can aford to buy the latest and greatest but I just can't get excited about most of what I see."

In general, I'd agree. However, I just took a look at Six Moon Design's Skyscape X and, while its design is not an innovation, the Cuben fabric that reduces the Sil nylon version by a whopping 8 ounces is. If you can afford to buy the latest and greatest, it might be worth a look. The increasing reliability of Cuben has led me to revisit a number of old designs in my ongoing effort to stay in the game.



"I will however point out that Montbell, Cascade Designs, Granite Gear are not cottage industries. You'd still have your NeoAir if you didn't shop the cottage industries.

Not any more, but all three started out that way. Ditto Outdoor Research, which has since been acquired by.....Cascade designs. That said, I own gear from Montbell, Outdoor Research, and Cascade Designs. As long as they make quality gear and are not egregiously exploitative of workers, I am an equal opportunity buyer. A majority of my gear does come from cottage gear makers, however, simply because they have come closest to meeting my requirements.

" I can only hope that my legs still have another 10-15 years left in them and I already understand the need for light weight gear as we age."

Somehow, I have a feeling you going to be out there for a good many years to come. Take it a year at a time and, first thing you know, you'll be on the far side of 70 with a lifetime of wonderful memories, wondering where in he!! all the years went and looking forward to the next adventure. It's gonna cost ya though, in gear as well as blood, sweat, and tears. ;-)

Edited for clarity.

Edited by ouzel on 12/31/2011 17:24:20 MST.

Perhaps instead of demanding more from the cottage companies in innovation we should be asking ourselves how we can help them to continue with innovation.. the larger companies are playing catch up in getting things lighter... but perhaps they realized the need for it after the smaller companies filled that void first. We need to find a way to help the smaller companies compete with bigger pocket powers.

How do we do this? Not just by buying gear I hope. To be an efficient company you need to have exposure.. great websites to create accessibility.. in depth and up to date critical reviews.. feedback.. support from the community.. access to advanced information and technologies.. money, time and resources to do all of this.. I'm sure there are a load of other things that go along with this as well. We expect all of this and more from a small cottage campany without help??

How about starting some kind of program to help enhance the cottage industries by a multi user grant backing entity like kickstarter? If you innovate, shouldn't it be re-warded by those who benefit? I would pay a buck or more to help fund a plan of an established cottage company or even someone with a decent idea for the sake of innovation. I would also promote a company trying to buy better(you define this - be it local, sustainable, quality) materials but can't always make that transition due to price point. Could the innovation not sprout from there? Perhaps it could be linked into helping people in real need. Part contributions could go towards getting basic essentials to areas of the world who need it.

What is BPL? Is it an on-line magazine or it is a community of somewhat like minded people who want to get outside and hike with lighter packs?? A typical person who wants to go outside needs gear to hike.


I think we need to look towards the future. What is sustainable? How can we re-purpose our "used gear" and over full gear lockers and houses? How can I contribute? Maybe it is not just Ryan who needs to look inward and lead by example but all of us. Perhaps focus needs to be on conscientious buying... make that first purchase be the right one and helping "noobs" like myself to do the same using the experienced expertise available. I believe it is very important for gears reviews to be extensive but also centralized. If I know of one place to find multiple user reviews, expert reviews, exact specs, advice yadda yadda.. I'm going to go there and it's not going to take me a bazillion years to read through each forum to get this info.

Is just going lighter in our pack weight enough?? Maybe lighter means leaving less of an environmental impact. What about fabrics and practices that go back to nature when they have played out their intended usefulness. How much waste do you create when going L, UL, or SUL backpacking. Are you a part owner in Ziploc and run to the nearest trash bin on exiting the trail?
What are we doing as a community to help clean up and maintain the environment we play in? Trash is much more glaring on the trail than in the city and makes me question(and I hope others) the impact of our living practices. Nature is inspiring and maybe the more people who see it the better chance people will want to protect it, preserve it.

Walking is for everyone who can.. In my mind so should backpacking. It's a great way to combat obesity, reduce stress and experience outside past the car. Why not make it lightweight and available to anyone who desire's to participate. Articles on groups who do this, on-line user pay video conferencing, seminars, on-line mentoring via chats & Skype as well as a ride share version for backpackers going on trips could all be looked at. Subscribers and experts could all participate. I think the scientists and the people who like to work with their hands need to get together.. Why not here?? There seems to be a plethora of both.

I love the idea of loaning gear, promoting re-use of items and re-purposing material. I think techniques that reflect how to re-use current resources points the way to new innovation. I would like to see the smaller companies challenge the larger ones by taking responsibility for the goods they produce.. The only way they could do that would be by getting help from the community they provide for. Can you imagine if major backpacking food companies would take back all of their used meal packages and have a way to functionally re-purpose them?? Or, if a product could be decomposted instead of just trashed? How about a gear library where one could test new & used equipment and then return it for others to test?

I think there is a huge hole this community and BPL could fill. BPL is just a mirror of what we put into it. How about we put our heads together? HAPPY 2012!!

Re Cameron's comment that, "BPL, pioneered the magazine without a magazine, a gear shop without gear, and outrageous shipping costs for stupid light packages."

Actually, BPL pioneered it's website without a gear shop.

And without any forums, too. Just articles.

As for shipping charges once BPL started selling gear, I just checked my BPL order history to confirm my recollection that BPL's "pioneer" gear shop did provide "free" shipping -- for quite a while.

My first order from BPL ($3.98 in July 2003 for micro-dropper bottles) was sent out with no shipping charge, as were more than two dozen of my subsequent orders over a period of several years -- including orders that were larger, and more expensive, than that first order.

Shipping charges surfaced over time, intermittantly at first, then regularly. I wondered why the "free lunch" lasted so long -- but it was nice.

Re: "As far as I can tell they specialized in making items once, out of season, in odd sizes, and almost never doing a second run."

A bit of overstatement there, but enough grains of truth as disgruntled folks found inventory selling out for popular items available only at BPL.


Re: "I'm not convinced Ryan knows enough about business to slam those who serve up the goods year, after year, after year."

Having good business sense is a prerequisite for recognizing, appreciating, designing, and creating innovative gear for lightweight backpacking?

Re: "Stock less, charge more was a failure."

BPL's gear shop was evidently a financial loser, not a priority, not worth the hassle, and/or becoming more and more redundant as cottage outfits sprouted and grew in expertise. So it seems all well and good that BPL closed its own shop down to focus on other goals.

I miss BPL's gear shop, especially items that were innovative and often unavailable at the time anywhere else. It is great that folks out there took the initiative to set up cottage operations making specialized gear, too.

It seems a natural evolution occured with the closure of BPL's gear shop, providing cottage outfits more opportunity to grow their customer base as they made themselves more successful in meeting gear needs that had made BPL's gear shop a unique and valuable resource for several years since its earliest appearance.

Just as BPL closing its gear shop was a good move for BPL and also for cottage outfits dedicated to selling specialty lightweight gear (and for folks looking for that gear), Ryan's essay (and this thread of reaction he sparked) on the state of lightweight gear innovation are a welcome process for learning/identifying what's important and worth the effort in the future.

Ryan's perspective and most of the exchanges are educational and appreciated.

The bashings, however, not so much.

Ha!

Here's innovation... I have been operating out of my tent trailer for the past couple weeks at Lake Mead. Just got back from a week of hiking and am sending this from a laptop, connected to a personal hotspot on my iPhone, and both are powered by the solar system on the trailer. That is innovation.

The timeliness of the article is uncanny. 2012 will be my 47th consecutive year of backpacking, and I have been contemplating writing a personal backpacking history for my kids, so they will have something to remember me by. So I have been somewhat contemplating some of what has transpired in this thread. Backpacking is backpacking. No big deal. Just go out and do it, and have fun. Quit over-thinking it.

My personal backpacking history started in 1965, when I went on my first backpack at the tender age of 15. The 1960's (my teens) I consider baby steps, as I began to learn of wild places.

The 1970's (my 20's) were epic hikes and skill building, which was supplemented by the best survival training in the world, courtesy of the US Government and included trips to many exotic places that most people would never want to visit. I did two 6 month backpacking trips when I was in my early 20’s.

The 1980’s (my 30’s) was the technology decade. A lot of products brought to market using new materials adapted to outdoor activities.

The 1990’s (my 40’s) were ho hum. I just hiked and enjoyed it.

The 2000’s (my 50’s) were a paradigm shift, as I experimented with so-called UL equipment to maintain my current level of travel and fun, trying to overcome (mostly successful) the aging process. I have bought much of the top rated cottage industry gear and used all of it extensively.

The 2010 (my 60’s) is a circling back of sorts. Dispensing of fragile SUL equipment and dialing in on what works best and lasts. It is still a work in progress. Much comes from the cottage industry, other from the big guys. But on most trips I am moving back towards the 10 lb base weight. Hey, I miss my drinking cup and my binoculars!! Not necessary items, but the make each trip a little more enjoyable.

So you think this generation of backpackers/gear builders is leading edge? Oh my! Cutting map margins, sawing off tooth brush handles, and removing labels! My, my. Well Colin Fletcher beat you to it in 1958, and documented it in his book, The Thousand Mile Summer. He also popularized tarps instead of tents and invented "Colin's" kilt.

Poncho Tarps? Standard deal for ground troops in Vietnam.

Alcohol, wood, esbit stoves? Developed in WWII. 1 qt Canteen fits into a 12 oz canteen cup which fits into a canteen cup stove. The original "cone." Standard fuel was Trioxane, which burns hotter than hexamine (Esbit), can use military issued sterno or even wood. Hexamine has been in use since the 30's, although I never tried it until a couple years ago. The military preferred Triozane because its blue flame was more difficult to see than the yellow hexamine, however it is toxic when used in enclosed areas. In Nam the sterno cans were difficult to come by because soldiers tried to drink it, as with alcohol fuel too. But denatured alcohol could be found. Favorite alcohol container for burning was a Succrets box. I will try and dig up my old set-up when I get home. Seems the Military was a few decades ahead of today's innovators.

For the most part, innovation has been adaptation of new fabrics and metals by gear makers. Ever notice how all the UL tents and packs look similar?

So the past few years, I have purchased and used a LOT of this "new" gear. Why? Reading a gear review after an initial test and actually getting it to work and last is the big challenge. And now at 61 I can still do the same hikes I did as a youngster and enjoy it.

So what have been the truly innovative trends? I think the biggest has been "boutique backpacking." I indulge in it, and try to avoid it. What is "boutique backpacking?" It is hiking with 3 day re-supplies, walking well marked trails, reliance on electronics and not skill to make it back alive. Heck, you don’t need much in the way of gear when you are boutique backpacking. But in 3 seasons I can and have done many XUL’s for up to a week, but only as a method to test out stuff for when I go on my non-boutique hikes. The stuff is not all that comfortable if you carry 7 days of food plus some water. When I started backpacking, we often hiked for up to 14 days between supplies. We could not afford USGS Topo maps, and the only electronic thing we might carry was a flashlight. You cannot do this with any kind of comfort, using all SUL gear. But we traveled in areas with few or no people and were completely self-reliant. That has changed for the most part.

So what works? Some sort of tarp to keep you dry. Bugs? I have been in the worst places on earth and the best insect protection provided by Uncle Sam was a headnet. You don't need a tent, unless you are doing serious snow travel. On my list of truly innovative is a zPacks Hexamid with poncho/groundsheet. No net. 8 ounces for shelter and rain gear. I have used mine a lot over the past few months, with stellar results. Neither is new per se, but Joe has integrated them well.

Stove? Bend the dove-tail of your Caldera Cone and it can become useless in the back country, as will a crushed beer can or alky stove. Just for the record, I usually use a CC with Esbit. Canisters can leak and the stove pintel can break off. Both have happened to me. Pressurized WG stoves/pumps can and do malfunction. The most reliable stove I have used (and I have have used about everything except the Borde Bomb), is a Svea 123. But a stove isn't necessary for survival in most instances, winter snow conditions excepted. Take your pick and if it fails, know how to adapt. Stoves don’t excite me.

Sleeping System? Down bags have been around for a long time. They have gotten lighter. Quilts save weight. However you cannot lighten down other than getting a higher quality. My Tim Marshall Epiphany cuben down quilt is my go-to quilt. I also use a Nunatak quilt and a WM Ultralight bag. All great gear, no great or earth shattering innovations... But quality products. Innovation in this area will need to come from a chemist, not a gear maker. NeoAir – in my older age is a winner. Just starting using one part of the time since last year. But air mattresses have been around for decades. Slow evolution over the years. Nothing of excitement here either. Take your pick, lots of good quality companies out there.

Pack? This is the Holy Grail. A pack that can carry everything you need, keep you centered and balanced, and never, ever cause the slightest discomfort in your shoulders or hips. We spend most of our backpacking time with a pack on our back. IMO, this is the most important piece of gear, and should be picked carefully. Form should follow function, NOT weight. I was somewhat chastised last year for getting a “heavy” back to replace my SUL packs. I have lots of experienced with packs. Several Kelty’s which are still in the garage (D4, B4, and a couple Seracs), Mountain Smith, Gregory, etc. The D4 was used almost exclusively for 20 years and still is used occasionally today. The quality external frame packs last forever. As do some of the expedition internal frames. I have owned several UL packs. They rip at the seams in short time, they are subject to tears from rocks and branches. They don’t carry loads well. I did find the Holy Grail however. A Dyneema or Spectra McHale pack is on my innovation list, it does everything well… and Dan has been making them for a long time. The innovation includes custom fitting and education.

So here is my innovation list of gear that will not fail and keep you alive in any kind of conditions:

1. Dyneema or Spectra McHale Pack
2. Military issue lensatic compass

Everything else is nice to have, because you can find something comparable. Let’s face it; we talk gear because it is integral to what we do. But it is not the end goal. Great hikes are the end. Whatever gets you there safely and comfortably is what matters.
Past innovations include Kelty packs from the 50’s & 60’s and Svea stoves. Other than that, you select your gear carefully, par down what you do not need and get out and hike. BTW, most people have two days off per week, 2 weeks of vacation, and 6 holidays. That means most people potentially have 124 hiking days per year. Use them wisely. They are your inventory. Unlike a store, if you do not use any inventory, it is gone forever.

Nick wrote, "The military preferred Triozane because its blue flame was more difficult to see than the yellow hexamine, however it is toxic when used in enclosed areas."

In a different combat area, we went a slightly different route. Troops needed to be able to stay in their foxholes for wind protection, and they wanted to be able to boil up something hot to drink. Trioxane was around, but not plentiful. So, somebody would crawl out to the wire and grab a Claymore antipersonnel mine, remove the blasting cap detonators, crack the back off with a bayonet, and carve a walnut-size piece of C4 explosive out. Then the back was hammered back on, the detonators were replaced, and the mine was stuck back into position. Then back in the foxhole, you could light a match to the C4, and it would burn with a nice blue flame, just right for that midnight cup of coffee. Toxic is not the first word that comes to mind.

--B.G.--

Innovative and multi-use too!

Nick - Great Post. I appreciate your ability to look back over the decades and provide a bit of perspective here. Also, I'm 27, and if at 61 I'm able to reflect on 40+ years of regular backcountry trips and still be going strong I'll feel pretty fortunate. I couldn't agree more about staying cognizant regarding our "inventory" of days off.

It seems to me that Ryan is starting to mourn the same sorts of innovations/gear that just a few years ago would have been celebrated big-time here on BPL. His perspective is changing, but I don't think it's fair to blanket the cottage industries as stagnating just because his gear preferences have evolved. Frankly though, I'd argue that companies like TT, MLD, ULA, GG etc have done a decent job of putting out new products, refining old ones, and trending toward more durable design and materials.

Also, I like what i've seen regarding pack innovation in the past couple of years. I like the idea of lightly framed packs that are a bit more comfortable than frameless, and are capable of a wider range of loads/trip lengths(Ohm, GG gorilla, MLD Exodus FS, z-packs exo), and light double wall tents (TT notch, SS), that should perform much better in humid environments than similarly priced and weighted single wall shelters. I too, miss the days of having one set of gear that I used for just about everything, but I think these packs and shelters could fit that mold.

The bottom line though, is I'm not too worried about it. There has never been an occassion where i've thought "man, that would be a great trip, if only someone made the right piece of gear so I could pull it off". We've got plenty of gear choices, probably now more than ever, and I doubt that recent innovation or lack-thereof has changed whether we're getting out any more or less.

Matt

I like you post, Nick. I am not sure about your choices for innovation, however. At a time in the past they were likely innovative, but there has been little change if any to the items you mention. True innovation requires a paradigm shift.

@Nick Great Post!

Yeah, gear has always been secondary to comfort. You QUICKLY learn what you need, what works and what is fluff.

I think the alcohol burners were in use in the Civil War, though, not WWII. I am betting they go back even more, around about the time distilling was first invented. Rand (Trail Designs) sent me a picture of one on eBay from 1860's or so.

You are just going to have to try the Borde Bomb....

"I think the alcohol burners were in use in the Civil War"

In the 1850s, Francis Fox Tuckett had developed an alcohol stove for campers and mountaineers known as the "Russian furnace".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Portable_stove

Parachute canopies were first made of canvas. Silk proved to be more practical because it was thin, lightweight, strong, easy to pack, fire resistant, and springy. During World War II, the United States was unable to import silk from Japan, and parachute manufacturers began using nylon fabric. More specifically, parachutes are made of "ripstop" nylon that is woven with a double or extra-thick thread at regular intervals, creating a pattern of small squares. This structure keeps small tears from spreading.

http://www.madehow.com/Volume-5/Parachute.html

Materials and tools have been around for awhile. The real revolution was mental - (re)discovering that you don't need to carry a 40-50lb pack, and developing the knowledge & confidence to get out there and "just do it".

"At a time in the past they were likely innovative, but there been little change if any to the items you mention. True innovation requires a paradigm shift."

Perhaps we all have too much time sitting around at home dreaming about gear? Seems that most of us are gear geeks anyway. Sometimes the old things work best. The fastest airplane in the world was built in the 1960's. My Dad's stove and refrigerator were purchased in 1950 and still work.

I often hike alone in remote areas and a pack or compass failure could be catastrophic. My pack will not rip a seam or shred if I slip on a slope made from volcanic rock. No matter how much weight I put in it (think lots of food and water) it carries well and never leaves my shoulders or hips sore. My compass is designed to work from -50F to 150F. It is nearly impossible to break. There is no fluid inside it to leak and it cannot develop a bubble under the face plate. There are no batteries to go dead. It is extremely accurate and you can measure down to the mil. Probably the best tool to shoot an azmith other than surveyor tools. Really easy to use, as millions of GIs have been trained to use one. Oh, and if those guys on the next ridge cooking dinner with C4 are bad guys, you can use it to accurately direct artillery fire. Multi-use :)

When I die both will be in perfect operating condition and I can bequeath them to my heirs. They are not throw-away items that end up in land fills. They are enviromentally friendly unlike most UL gear. They are socially responsible items if one is concerned with such things. Gear that lasts forever -- now that is not consumerism.

So while others are fretting and searching for the Lost Ark and Atlantis, I shall be out on adventures with my "old" innovations :)

BTW, most people could afford a McHale if they had not purchased all those packs in the past (myself included). And a $60 non-tritium Cammenga compass is readily available.

The real revolution was mental - (re)discovering that you don't need to carry a 40-50lb pack, and developing the knowledge & confidence to get out there and "just do it".
-------------

Yeah, some of us carried 40-50 lb packs and still do. But that is not base weight. It includes a couple of weeks of food. My old set-up in 1970 would be considered Light by today's standards - under 20 lbs base weight - the rest was consumables for extended unsupported trips. No boutique backpacking. Heck until I joined BPL I did not know what a mail drop or bounce box was

For example in the 60's when Dan McHale was a teenager he soloed the JMT unsupported in 11 days with an external frame pack. Starting FSO weight was 40 lbs. This what we did. I bring this up because Dan and I have chatted a lot, as we have a lot in common being close in age and spending a lot of our youth in the Southern Sierras. Think about that JMT trip. I did many similar hikes in the 70's, as did many others. Not much has changed... Other than fabrics and metals. Heck, it is just walking not rocket science.

A compass has been superceeded by GPS. If we are talking true survival equipment, choosing a pack is odd. If only permitting two items how about shelter (maybe an innovative Trailstar) and a knife, which would help you build fire. I've only been backpacking for 20 years but even in that time I have never had a catastrophic pack failure. Mind you, I never use the sub 10oz frameless packs either.

I think you are confusing longetivity with innovation as described by Ryan and the subject of this thread. Good Lord, there are military packs (horrid things) that have been going strong for decades. Innovative? No. Durable? Horribly so.

I think the shock factor for many comes from using SUL frameless packs and then going to a fully framed pack that has been fitted for torso size and of course, going from thin, non durable fabrics to highly durable fabrics. I have mantained and will continue to mantain that a well fitting framed pack is ideal for almost any weight load.

> A compass has been superceeded by GPS.
Sorry, but I will have to very strongly disagree here. Just ...no way.
Compasses don't use batteries, weigh a whole lot less, are more accurate, and can be used flat on a topo map.

Cheers

Nick,

I enjoyed your post. I too, have gone to the light and back a bit. Comfort seems to be a higher priority as I get older. I like your reflections and experience based observations.

When I researched a new and innovative myog for gear, I found that the military had already gone there and perfected it. All I had to do was to add my twist and I was good to go. In many of their new systems (ecwcs) they have enlisted the help of the mountaineering industry.

I actually went back to an external frame after bruising my shoulders and hips using an internal on a winter trip. I remember going ultralight on a weeklong trip, when I added the food and water it felt like I was carrying a huge brick on my back. I remembered how easy it was to carry mine and my sons gear in an external years ago when he was a youngster. Say what you want about all the new and expensive lightweight packs that can carry a "load", but if you look closer they are now hybrids that incorporate an external-type frame. (metal hoops/u-channels - carbon fiber this and that)

Thanks

Dave

many mountaineering packs for quite some time have had a system where you could remove the stays to turn it into a frameless summit pack, or insert them for heavier loads .. they also have such things as removable pockets, belts, straps

now they arent generally UL as they arent designed as such due to durablility and climbing features

but the concept has been around for many many many years ...

granted "innovation" is often doing something thats already been done but better than anybody else ... look at the iPhone .... touch screen smart phones had been out for years prior to it coming out, they just did it better than anyone else by a light year ... same with most other apple products

as to whether the cottage industry is "innovative" or not IMO is not really that relevant ... i personally thing the line may be blurring for some cottage makers who now produce items overseas as to the definition of "cottage" ... almost every outdoor manufacturer started as "cottage" ... the question as they grew up is "do they still keep their customers happy and produce products they want?"

i dont care too much whether gear is produced by a "cottage" maker ... companies such as MEC and westcomb produce some gear in Canada, while some "cottage" makers may not ... what i DO care about it is whether it works, if it lasts, is it light "enough", what value it represents, and how that company takes care of you later on ...

and as has been said ... the gap is closing with manufacturers having lighter gear in their lines

If I hadn't recently resubscribed to BPL, Ryan's article probably would have kept me from resubscribing.

Ryan offers two complaints, and it isn't clear to me that he sees the distinction between the two. The first complaint regards the lack of "innovation" in cottage gear. I don't have an opinion as to whether cottage manufacturers were innovative in 2011. I also don't care, because innovation, like gear itself, is not an end or intrinsic good for me. I am not in it for "the excitement that makes using - and studying - ultralight gear fun and interesting." For me, the last year and a half* included the most and the best backpacking in my life to date. I used a mix of cottage, major manufacturer, and MYOG gear. Never in this time was I frustrated by the fact that most of my gear was either five+ years old or at least gear available five years ago--with the possible exception of frustration with bear cans, which I carry where required. Ryan has recently written about how "it's not about the gear," but if the gear currently available is limiting his wilderness experiences, either the trips he's doing are more different than mine than I realize, or he's a long way from living up to his own goals.**

Ryan's second complaint is that cottage gear often appears to be "made in ... garage[s] with substandard equipment from sketches on paper scraps using an uncalibrated ruler and dull scissors." It's important to recognize that this is entirely distinct from the "innovation" issue; a manufacturer can make exceptional but non-innovative equipment, and revolutionary designs can be poorly executed. Even more important, however is that if Ryan has a complaint about a specific manufacturer, he should name names or bite his tongue. Failing to do so unfairly suggests that the entire cottage industry--except for the manufacturers Ryan likes this week--has quality problems. I therefore think McHale's (or not-McHale's?) responses in this thread are completely warranted--Ryan has effectively attacked McHale's workmanship without providing any evidence or opportunity for rebuttal. Unlike innovation, I think the quality and durability of gear is important and can degrade from the wilderness experience, but I haven't experienced any issues in this regard. Of course, I predictably have much narrower experience with cottage manufacturers; the only one's I've patronized are tarptent and MLD.***

In summary, Ryan's complaint about innovation is about something I don't care much about, and something Ryan is apparently trying to distance himself from as well. Ryan's complaint about quality is unfair and unsupported. Neither of these are why I subscribe to BPL.


* Ryan's article suggests that cottage gear now only appeals to folks who are new to light hiking. My personal calling out of the last year+ might suggest that I'm in that category, but I've been hiking with mostly the same gear for years. I've just upped my ambition and frequency recently.

** I'd make an exception for "innovative" gear that opens up new _types_ of wilderness experiences. Other than UL equipment in general, the only piece of gear that has done this for me yet is a packraft, although I have hopes for more winter over-snow travel, which will require new (to me) types of gear. The equipment Ryan highlights--HMG pack, Dylan's kettle--clearly lies outside of this category.

*** Off topic, but a thanks I've never made before: I have an MLD bivy, and the only reason I don't have an MLD poncho-tarp is because Ron has been so generous with advice in the forums that he gave me the confidence to make my own. Thanks Ron. Everywhere that I followed your advice things are holding up perfectly, whereas in the places I tried something else, things are starting to fail.


---
Edits:
Two clarifications. When I wrote this, I was thinking about the "dull scissors" comment, which made me think of shelters and packs, and thus ignore cottage gear I use from Revelate Designs, Alpacka, and WM (is WM cottage?). I dislike my 2010 alpacka spray skirt--it is attached a little off kilter, and doesn't have enough velcro to close securely. Otherwise my experiences with cottage gear have been great.

Also, on the innovation vs. quality dichotomy, I do get annoyed with the quality of some of my gear, but it isn't clear that the solution lies in innovation. I've been especially irritated by a pocket zipper on REI pants that gets stuck closed, by twist-locks on MSR poles that slip, and the front pocket on my original Jam that is too narrow. These are all major-manufacturer pieces of gear.

Edited by nathanm on 01/02/2012 10:23:07 MST.

"Ryan has effectively attacked McHale's workmanship without providing any evidence or opportunity for rebuttal."

I re-read Ryan's article and I don't see where he speaks ill of Mchale. So I read it again. I still don't see it.

David Ure--

Ryan didn't specifically mention McHale. But in broad strokes he suggested that most cottage manufacturers were turning out gear as though they had dull scissors. So the implication is that cottage manufacturers, other than the ones Ryan praises, make shoddy gear, and that if you buy gear from one of the unnamed manufacturers, you're at risk of getting something that will fall apart. McHale is such an unnamed cottage manufacturer. I don't think RJ specifically meant to criticize McHale (at least not on quality--maybe RJ did intend criticism for lack of innovation). Nonetheless, given that a) RJ has previously written about McHale packs, b) RJ is saying that he's moved away from gear he previously used in part because he wants durability, and c) that RJ names a non-McHale pack that appears to play a similar function, I can see why McHale felt the need to clarify.

I say all of this as somebody who has never seen, and will likely never purchase, a McHale pack--I'm still wearing out + patching my circa 2003 Jam.

Thanks Nathan. I had attempted to re-route the accusation early on and apparently failed because I honestly do not believe that Ryan was targeting Mchale regardless of the 'broad stroke' used. Mchale packs are extremely durable (I inadvertantly dragged one that had a spectra front pocket against sandstone and there was zero abrasion damage - other packs on the trip were not as lucky) and the commentary of dull scissors, etc, seemed at direct odds to the Mchale product so I simply never made the connection. I tried to re-direct the thread with Dan but apparently failed.

Cheers,

Edited by FamilyGuy on 01/02/2012 00:12:21 MST.

I'm afraid I pretty much agree with Nathan. No, Ryan didn't specifically target McHale; he just accused the entire cottage industry of lack of innovation and slipshod practices. Dan just happened to be the only one of many manufacturers who reacted to the accusation. The others, IMHO, had sense enough to ignore Ryan's extremely provocative statements.

The general effect of Ryan's article has been to make me even more unhappy with BPL. As I stated before, nearly all the benefit I've gotten from this site in the past couple of years (except for some of the general info in some of the SOTM articles) has been from posts in the forums about new gear. In the past year, that has included, among others, Kat Pierini's marvelous hats and Rob Kelly's Ti potty trowels. (Much easier for my grandkids to use instead of a tent stake, and also lighter.) The year prior, the highlights were the ZPacks Hexamid and the instructions for DIY gravity filters.

Unless things turn around, I may be here a lot less in the future. Probably a good thing--I spend too much time on these forums anyway.

Edited by hikinggranny on 01/02/2012 00:46:52 MST.

>> (Compasses) .... are more accurate... (than a GPS) <<

OK Roger, define more accurate. Maybe if all I want to know is where magnetic north is you might be right but if I actually want to know my location?

Let's sit down in the middle of the forest, nothing to see but trees, and plot our location. I can transfer my "exact" location to my map in seconds (in the dark... in the fog...) with my GPS. Using a compass... good luck!

Yes it's an electronic device and might fail but you could just as easily be sitting on top of an iron ore deposit with your compass.

Sometimes you just have to admit that innovation is a good thing (and you can carry the old mouse trap as a backup).

Edited by skopeo on 01/02/2012 01:47:18 MST.

While I don't like dwelling too long on the negative aspects of what someone writes in a forum, because I believe people are far more complex and broad in the spectrum of their thoughts and beliefs than is possible to spell out in a single article or post, I do find it a little disconcerting that Ryan wrote such a provocative article for everyone here to see, most likely deliberately upsetting the furniture, then barely joins in the ensuing uproar. It seems a bit one-sided to me. Ryan, I can understand if you busy and just don't have the time to be too active here, but then why toss a bomb into a community just now? Did you mean to engage in a true discussion, or just upset a lot of people? Now we have people speculating on what you intended and what you said, without having you clearing your end up. Why?

If I may be a bit harsh simply because I feel that honesty all around is necessary, considering that BPL itself is a UL cottage industry "product" and there have been a lot of unhappy customers, while at the same time the promised "improvements" almost never seem to materialize, except for a few spurts here and there, how is it that the article can claim legitimacy in criticizing other UL cottage industries for "lack of innovation" and "dull scissors"? BPL now most definitely faces a crisis that it has never faced before, in great part because it doesn't seem to have direction and doesn't live up to the promises it has made to its customers. Ryan's and other BPL originators' almost complete lack of involvement in the community these days certainly seems to show a waning interest in their own product. For some reason there is this unspoken agreement that criticizing UL manufacturers' products and services is perfectly fine, but anything BPL is off limits and must be regarded as almost sacred. Why? Why, every time someone voices frustration with the way things are run here, is there always this pitchfork reaction that the dissenter somehow is a monster? If any other manufacturer acted this way they'd quickly lose their customer base and most likely go out of business. I've asked it before and ask it again, what exactly are members paying for? The forums? I feel the forums are self-generating and BPL exists and is popular BECAUSE of people's volunteered contributions, not the other way around. The store? What store? When there was a store, what products? For YEARS members had to put up with excuses for why the products they wanted were never in stock and that they were supposed to be understanding because the BPL store was a cottage industry store. When products came in members had to literally be at their keyboards, fingers on their mice, ready to click "buy" before the entire stock was gone within one hour. How absurd can you get? The wiki? What wiki? The articles? Last year there was a burst of activity... now it seems to have puttered out again. We've even lost some of our most prolific and beloved writers.

So isn't that like throwing stones if you live in a glass house?

Don't get me wrong. I haven't been on BPL this long because of gear, but because of the community and the wonderful people, including Ryan, here. The gear just makes it fun and provides a common point of discourse. I'd like to feel that I want to remain committed to BPL and to see it grow in a positive direction. To me the community here is precious, something that I rarely find. I don't want to lose it or to see it disintegrate into chaos and then die, as I've seen two beloved communities come to (one of which I was a moderator) in the past. I'm even thinking of what I can do to help bring life back into BPL and am thinking of creating a UL cartoon series that can be one thing people look forward to reading regularly. But I have to feel that the effort put into creating such a thing is worth it and will be appreciated. BPL itself has to be the fulcrum which SUPPORTS the entire UL industry, especially since this is where a lot of people's introduction to and long-term interest in UL starts and maintains itself. I'd like to see other members offer similar efforts on their part, instead of just criticizing without contributing anything. A community cannot exist without members thinking on their part and actually doing something about their ideas. That, of course, also means that BPL itself has to actively encourage people to be active and to support their efforts, instead of throwing stones. I'm not sure what Ryan hoped to gain by publishing the article, though the discussion it has started might be something constructive, after all.

Perhaps there needs to be an understanding about who belongs to whom... does BPL belong to the community, or does, as is so often suggested, does the community belong to BPL and Ryan? I don't think it can go both ways. I certainly don't feel and have no desire to be part of something businesslike, where I am treated like an employee having to take direction from the "boss". I post strong sentiments here often because I feel I am an equal contributor and feel that what I say and what others say are important and helpful (well, perhaps not always...) in the ongoing life of the community. What connection this has with the business aspect of BPL is the big question, and perhaps what Ryan needs to figure out, if that is possible without being self-contradicting.

All in all, what I'd like to see is BPL being as vital as once was, with the same enthusiasm and love that drove it for all those years. Along with that I'd like to see the strong conviviality and mutual support between BPL and the UL manufacturers that was the touchstone of everything that has happened here and brought it all to where we all are today, grow deeper and richer. It would be a shame to see bonds broken and resentment rule the day. I believe it is a sign of true maturity when people who have been together a long while learn how to stay together longer instead of descending into bickering. Think why so many former members have let their memberships lapse. There is a reason for that.

Edited by butuki on 01/02/2012 02:37:02 MST.

It's the time of year when old men reflect on the past, and everything seemed better.
I include myself in that. :)

First of all, who is the cottage industry? How do we define it? Should have started with that. But lets consider some gear that I would say is cottage industry (which is usually defined as made at home by family members, using equipment they own).

Cat Trowel -- Love this little gem. Yes, it looks home made and not stamped by a big machine. Light and very functional. Highly Recommended. Great follow-up on email order.

Caldera Cone -- Okay simple but highly effective. I use one 99% of the time, but then I don't "cook." Considering the price point, don't expect it to last forever. The weak point is the dove-tail joint of the cone. You have to be careful with it. My first was for a Snow Peak cup/pot. Loved it. Then I got one with the Heiny can. Hated the plastic container, as it was unnecessary weight, but it did protect the cone. So I discarded the container and damaged the dove-tail after several trips. My fault. So then I bought a Foster set up that the cone fit into the can. Also got the Esbit Graham Cracker. Highly Recommended!

Shelters -- I have many.

Tarp Tent (Scarp 1). Excellent. Use it only in winter/snow. Takes a while to get good at setting it up quickly. Quality product and great customer service.

Six Moons Wild Oasis -- I just don't care for this particular design. Many people do. But construction is top notch.

Generic Poncho Tarp - Nylon. Used it for years. Works great. Lighter versions available. Service dependent upon retailer purchased from.

GoLite Poncho Tarp - Same as above. Lighter. Service dependent on retailer purchased from.

MLD SilNylon Pro Tarp - Same as above, even lighter. Better design. Also use a Side zip Soul Bivy with it. Excellent quality. Good customer Service.

BPL Nano Tarp. Highly recommended by Ryan Jordan. Poor quality control on material selection, color runs and one large green splot in the material. Bonded seams. Very expensive at the time (got a membership discount). Tie-outs use two sewn strips, nowhere near the quality of a zPacks Hexamid sewing & reinforcement. I bought this to replace my GG SpinnTwinn based on weight. I like the SpinnTwinn better, it is larger, just heavier. Customer Sevice - NONE.

GG SpinnTwinn. Highly recommended unless you want something much lighter and more expensive. Customer service outstanding.

ZPacks Hexamid (no net) plus cuben poncho/groundsheet = light, light, light. Dream to set up. Prior to this I would not put up a shelter if there was a slight chance of rain. I would take my chances. This sets up so quickly, I set it up if a slight chance of rain. Great coverage. Super light. The poncho/ground sheet has clips that turn it into a bathtub floor. Really nice. Small zipper on each side turn it into a small poncho. Large enough to cover you and your pack, but not a big flowing cape like most poncho/tarps that catch on every stray branch. Hood works well. Very innovative integration. Tie outs much better than BPL Nano Tarp. Complete set-up cost less than what BPL was selling the Nano Tarp alone ($330 vs. $370). Top Notch Service.

Backpacks - over the past 40+ plus years I have purchased a few, to include several UL packs. On the UL front I am not entirely thrilled about a light pack to carry all my gear. What is comfort to some maybe pain to others. But I have a couple I use for short trips and they work. Here is the thing about these packs: if you buy a pack for around $100 don't expect all kinds of features or bomber construction. I don't think most people do. I own a GG Murmur and a zPacks small Zero. They are minimal for minimal loads. Just don't try and carry more than 10lbs in them and they are okay. Actually I am liking the simplicity of the Zero. Ryan Jordan reviewed a Blast 18 a little over a year ago with high compliments and gave it a "Recommended" rating. This rating also included this 'con,'

"Construction techniques and styling reflect classic young cottage "garage manufacturing". The quality is high and the pack is well sewn, but makes use of simple construction techniques that limit shaping and styling options"

Hmm, this is a large cuben stuff sack with straps for $105, very similar to the zero. The goal was simplicity... not shaping and styling. My opinion.

I also have a GG Mariposa Plus and at one time owned a ULA Conduit and Ohm. I did not like the functionality of the ULA packs (personal preference), but always receive top notch service from ULA. Construction was good.

Quilts - I have three

An early Tim Marshall Epiphany Cuben. This is my 'go to' quilt. Light and I can deal with the vapor barrier effect of cuben. Well sewn and simple construction techniques, as Ryan would say. The zipper at the bottom and bottom draw-string vent hole are nice touches. Construction is comparable to my BPL 60 quilt. Customer service is more than excellent, it is "far exceeds expectations."

Nanutak Arc Specialist - excellent construction with some custom options. This is a really, really nice quilt. Just heavier than the Marshall quilt. I now longer use my WM Ultralight for colder weather, I combine this quilt with the Marshall. Customer service is excellent.

BPL 60. I bought this used. It is a good quilt for its temperature rating. Had I been the original owner, I would be up the creek without a paddle for customer service.

Other gear --

BPL Merino Hoody -- nice piece of gear. But find myself always taking my Mountain Hard Wear Cliffer LS T (merino wool/poly)instead for most trips outside of summer. Just works nicer. The BPL Hoody is made in Fiji. I hated the logo on it, but it fell off during the first washing :). Customer Service = None

BPL Thorofarer shirt and pants. Highly recommended by Ryan Jordan. Two of the worst pieces of clothing I have ever purchased. Sweated like a pig in 70 degree weather with no humidity. Wore the pants once and sold them. Wore the shirt on 3 trips. Most of the BPL logo has fallen off after 3 washes. The zipper pocket is falling apart already. Made in China. Made in China. Shame on BPL. No Customer service.

---------------------------------

McHale Packs... okay you know I am partial to this piece of gear. No one has ever provided me the level of service that Dan has. And no pack has fitted as well or carried as comfortably. Period. But is he part of the cottage industry? Maybe by association or by his posts here. These packs are not manufactured, they are custom built. Yes, you need to stick with his designs but each one is very custom. Can you even attempt to compare his construction quality to another manufacturer? Nope, No comparison. When I had my LBP demo, Dan made me turn it inside out to inspect the construction and to understand how his suspension system worked. He is that focused on quality. Will he build anything you want? No. If he puts his name on the label it has to meet his high standards.

By the way, read this quote from the Complete Walker IV (pg 35-36), I think it was written by Colin Fletcher, not Chip Rawlins because it is the similar section from Complete Walker III.

"The pricing system that's evolved in response falls into three categories. The best off-the-shelf gear is called high-end...Then there is the solid, though not necessarily stolid, midrange...Still lower there lurks what is called price-point gear...

There is also the realm of the specialized and hair-raisingly expensive,... - that is generally called trick. Beyond trick is custom, the sweet stratosphere of McHale Packs and Limmer Boots. True custom gear might set you back now, but also might last a lifetime."

Edited to fix a few grammar errors. I also noticed that I emphasized CUSTOMER SERVICE for all these vendors. Hmm...

Edited by ngatel on 01/02/2012 05:04:02 MST.

> define more accurate
I can align my compass with my map to about one degree.

I am quite sure I can't align my GPS like that: it does not have really straight sides or a see-through base.

> Let's sit down in the middle of the forest, nothing to see but trees, and plot our location.
Don't want to, don't need to.

I am not fussed about exactly where on the map in the middle of thick forest I might be. What I am concerned about is where I am going. I can set my compass to a bearing and travel through very thick forest and come out where I want to. We do that a LOT here in the Blue Mountains: it's forested plateau country.

But more to the point, what we are talking about here is navigation skill (we call it 'bush skill'). You don't get that out of a GPS.

Yes, I have a simple GPS. It stays home most (almost all) of the time. It's far too clumsy compared with a magnetic compass in the field. And it has stuffed up plenty of times too: it put me on the opposite (wrong) side of an estuary once ...

Cheers

I will agree with Roger. GPS tells you exactly where you are. Verry accuratly.

This is perhaps the only advantage to GPS. I don't really care exactly where I am. I am on the trail to someplace. The trail is not accuratly represented on ANY map except at such detail that I don't want to carry that big of a map. Canoeing makes a good example: In a fog bank it gets so I cannot see the prow of the boat, 'cep as a barely discernable marker. A simple compass lets me paddle from point A to point B. It is a anolog marker that is correct 99.9% of the time. Only a degree or two off the rest. (Many rocks and geologic features will force the compas off a degree or two in the ADK's.) I know that even though I am blind, I am paddling toward the correct location whenever I care to check. The constant course corrections are like walking, you just make them without thinking. The GPS is NOT suitable for this work. I really don't care where I am. I know my heading. My bearing will vary from spot to spot, depending on wind and current. I guess at these...they have a term for that, but I forget.

Anyway, GPS units do not satisfy me. They are heavy, need batteries, and simply do not do as good a job. I much prefer to simply watch my little compass.

>> (Compasses) .... are more accurate... (than a GPS) <<

OK Roger, define more accurate. Maybe if all I want to know is where magnetic north is you might be right but if I actually want to know my location?

Let's sit down in the middle of the forest, nothing to see but trees, and plot our location. I can transfer my "exact" location to my map in seconds (in the dark... in the fog...) with my GPS. Using a compass... good luck!

Yes it's an electronic device and might fail but you could just as easily be sitting on top of an iron ore deposit with your compass.

Sometimes you just have to admit that innovation is a good thing (and you can carry the old mouse trap as a backup).

---------------------------

Mike,

I have some experience with GPS, although I am not a big fan. Yes in fog or a white out, a GPS can be a better option. But if you are in a forest and don't know where you are with a compass or a GPS you... well that should never happen! You should already know "about where" you are and where you are heading. If you are actually navigating, then you know exactly where you are.

Can you shoot an azmith (take a bearing) with a GPS? If you are in a deep gorge will it tell you where you are?

If I know where magnetic north is (my compass) then I can quickly find out where I am. I orient the map to magnetic north, shoot my azmiths and I know where I am. I could care less about declination.

The owners manual for my Garmin eTrex HCx says the compass is accurate to +/- 5 degrees. My Military lensatic compass is accurate to +/- 40 mils (2.25 degrees).

A military issue lensatic compass illuminates at night without a battery very well for 10 years. It has tritium vials in it, which have a half life of 12.5 years.

The manual also says the GPS is accurate to 10 meters (33 feet). Most of the time I can do much better triangulating my position with a lensatic. Remember a good spotter can guide/drop artillery rounds very accurately with his lensatic compass.

My manual says the battery life is 25 hours. How many sets of batteries will I need if I am traveling cross country for 2 weeks off trail?

Temperature - My Garmin is good down to 5F, the lensatic down to -50F. Both are good to around 150F.

The Garmin is water resistant. The compass is water proof.

What happens if the GPS software crashes, an electron gets lost or something goes wrong in the circuit board?

With a GPS or a Compass you need a map! 99% of the time the map is all I need anyway. For me, the compass is much more reliable, so I leave the GPS at home. Actually it was a gift from my wife so I take in on day hikes with her so feels good about the gift.

This is Backpacking Light, we do not carry redundant gear :)

Hey, there is nothing wrong with a GPS. HYOH!

Edit: both weigh 5.3 ounces.

Edited by ngatel on 01/02/2012 04:41:27 MST.

I wasn't meaning the GPS, Nick. I'm a map and compass man myself. I only carry a GPS in winter, when navigating off mountains in a white out could mean life and death.

I was poking fun at the way everything seemed better when we were younger, and how things can go full circle in our minds. I'm glad to find out that i have only ever been boutique hiking though, as i can usually re-supply regularly.;)

Edited by MikefaeDundee on 01/02/2012 04:57:31 MST.

Mike,

I have been playing around with the GPS and Topo Map application on my iPhone. Actually it is innovative. Battery is an issue. But in the back country, I just want something I can trust 100% of the time. Perhaps it is just being an old fart. Plus there are things a compass can do and a GPS cannot do... and visa versa.

Regarding "boutique hiking" - well, nothing wrong with it if that is what someone wants. But let me think... hike in the Sierras for 12 days and go visit a town or supply point with lots of people every 3 or 4 days; or go 12 days and see no one. I like to plan my hikes based on where I want to go or see, not based on what my pack limits me to do.

Don't know if you are familiar with California. It is more than 5 times as large as Scotland, has 13 peaks over 14,000 feet and the lowest desert (-232 feet) in the US. The Sierra Nevada mountains are 400 miles long and there are dozens upon dozens of smaller mountain ranges in the state. We have 25,000 square miles of desert. No reason to be visiting cities or supply points on holiday :)

Nick.
If i lived in a country big enough, i wouldn't re-supply either. :)
However, i wouldn't call a trek over/through the Scottish mountains 'boutique', even if you re-supply every 4 days. There aren't many official trails, and you need to be able to navigate. Of course, you don't need to re-supply. You can stay in the mountains, and carry all your food with you.

Try this. Sit down for lunch with your GPS on and after lunch look at the track log.

We found That using GPS for seaching to be very frustrating, but shooting an azmuth with a good compass - very accurate.

You might reconsider the accuracy of a gps - it may tell you you are on that mountain while you are falling off.


It's a tool - know the limitations.


Enjoy,

Dave

Edited by dmgoody on 01/02/2012 07:57:14 MST.

Following a track on the GPS in a white-out. I was aiming for a cliff edge that i could 'handrail' onto safer ground. Knowing a cliff was ahead, i was also throwing snow balls in front of me to give a visual reference point. I didn't want to step over the edge. A snowball didn't land in front of me, and i knew it had gone over the edge. According to my GPS, i still had a distance to go!

Interesting discussion with good points on both sides. I usually carry both a compass and a GPS. I must admit the latter is usually for speed and convenience. I can glance at it and see where I am in thick mist (common in Scotland) or dense forest (not that uncommon in Scotland). On the Scottish hills trails are often sketchy or non-existent, visibility is often minimal and there are plenty of cliffs and gullies so you need to know where you are and have good navigation skills. I've hiked and skied in the High Sierra, including on the Pacific Crest Trail and on a 500 mile round trip, and I can say that hiking there is much, much easier than in the Scottish Highlands due to the weather, open terrain and well-maintained trails. Even when off trail or when the trails are snow covered navigation is simple. On my 500 mile hike in the High Sierra I never used my compass once (and didn't carry a GPS back then). In the Scottish Highlands I use a compass frequently. It's also possible to hike for a week without resupplying anyway in the Highlands - I've done it several times.

Here's an example of how GPS can be useful and save time. Last year I hiked the Pacific Northwest Trail. In places I was on sketchy trails in dense forest. I wanted to find a junction and follow another sketchy trail, as this linked up with a better trail further along. On a couple of occasions I overshot the junction, backtracked, and overshot the junction again because there wasn't actually anything visible on the ground. The GPS map (I really think that to fully utilise GPS one with topo mapping is needed) showed where the junction was and the direction of the invisible trail so I used that to find the turn-off and then follow the line of the trail until signs of it appeared.

Modern GPS units are tough and have good battery life. Last February I hiked the 217 mile Southern Upland Way in southern Scotland. I was hiking it for a web site and needed a GPS route for the whole trail so I had a SatMap switched on in the top pocket of my pack the whole way. The batteries lasted 3-4 days. The weather was wet and the GPS was often damp at the end of the day. However the SatMap is waterproof (and shockproof) so this wasn't a problem.

Why is it always assumed that if you use a GPS you don't know how to use a compass?

I've used a GPS for a little over 10 years but I've been walking in the woods for over 40 years and am quite capable with a map and compass. I now prefer to take a GPS because I consider it a better tool for the job (it's gear innovation... I'm trying to keep this relevant to this thread). I will however, make it very clear that I am not suggesting that a GPS replaces a map, that is not the case. It does however replace a compass very nicely and I haven't used my compass in years on the water or on land (although I do carry a compass as a backup).

What is very obvious from the comments above is that many of you don't know how to use a GPS or have not kept up with this technology (old GPS units?).

Can I project a bearing? Of course, that's what GPS units were designed for. I can drop a waypoint on a feature or plug in coordinates from my map and the unit will take me to that point and display my bearing and distance constantly. I can also project a bearing at a given distance (I can key the distance) if all I want is a projected bearing line (like a compass).

As for holding a course, once again, that is what these units were designed for but most people don't even know this feature exists. It was designed initially for boating but is just as valuable on land. Instead of a compass pointer you can change to a course pointer. This will display the amount of "drift" you are off of your desired course (works with parallel lines on the display). I use this mostly in boating to compensate for drift caused by ocean currents however it keeps you on course on land just the same.

It's also evident that most people here think that their maps are accurate. I've worked in the survey and mapping field for decades and I can tell you that if the maps in your area are as accurate as the GPS coordinates (+-10 metres) on your handheld GPS then you are lucky to have such good mapping... that is not the case for most small scale topo mapping.

Lastly, I will ask Roger, how you can align your map and compass accurately to one degree if you don't know "exactly" where you are? I can only assume you are lucky enough to hike in an area that has an abundance of natural land features that show up on your map. Try that in BC! (one tree looks pretty much like the next).

Good post Chris.
Do you think your 'boutique hiking' experience in Scotland helped you on the real hiking in the US? ;)

Hiking all the Munros in one go must be so easy. I'm surprised Nick hasn't come across and done it in a weekend.

I am with Mike and Chris on the use of GPS.

I hike a lot in Ireland and Scotland and trails are non existent in most areas and have had to use GPS to navigate on a number of occasions in white out conditions.

Edited by stephenm on 01/02/2012 11:00:27 MST.

I started with a Garmin Legend from the original eTrex line. After enough experience with it losing signal I upgraded to a Garmin GpsMap 60. Signal was much better but I found myself rarely using it because I spent most of my time on the AT (you need neither map & compass nor GPS on the AT). As I started spending more time in Wilderness areas and on lesser used trails or off trail I moved back to carrying a compass and custom maps. After a few mishaps, though, due to dense tree cover and being unable to sight any landmarks, I've started carrying a Foretrex 301. I primarily use it for tracking routes, especially off trail in the Rockies, but it also comes in quite handy when I need to confirm I'm where I think I am on my map.

Edited by simplespirit on 01/02/2012 10:55:50 MST.

I always carry a map and compass and its my prefered method of navigation, I use View Ranger Mapping on a Motorla Defy WP\Rugged phone(with 2 spare batteries) some times I leave it switched off and other times I will leave it on to record a track.

Hey guys,
Compass, map, GPS, smartphone, years of experience...none of those seem to help keep this thread on track, however open-ended it was when it started. ;)

Tom

To close the circle and return to the thread's path, when is someone going to innovate the GPS to include a comforting voice giving directions?

Like, "Go a little bit to the left. Good. Now go straight ahead. Wow! You're doing just great! You deserve a reward, so dig out some of those M&M's."

To close the circle and return to the thread's path, when is someone going to innovate the GPS to include a comforting voice giving directions?

Panasonic has done just that with their "TabiNavi" traveler's GPS here in Japan (only sold in Japan in Japanese). I'm not sure if the Sony NV-U37 does this. I don' think so.

Maybe the GPS specific posts could be moved to a topic specific thread so the the OP could better remain on topic - "Cottage Stagnation and Recent Gems"!

I agree with some of what Ryan says mainly slowing down on needing to purchase the latest and greatest gear. Its a never ending sickness, that is really unnecessary for the most part.

I would disagree on some of the points on the cottage gear makers though, and the HMG Porter pack, (yes I own one too) First off it is a nice pack, but nothing really groundbreaking with it. A few things are actually borrowed or copied from McHale. Reinforcement stitching on the Porter is not the best I've seen. This is just my observations and not a criticism of the Porter. It remains to be seen for myself as to whether the Porter will hump 30-35lbs, better than my McHale Merkibeiner (#1 choice) or the ULA Circuit.

From what I saw on their site, I didn't think that much of the HMG Porter Pack, either. YMMV!

I am far more impressed by the Elemental Horizons Aquilo and the forthcoming Kalais (I hope I spelled that right). The Aquilo is the one that got the Highly Recommended rating in Will Rietveld's review (I hope I spelled Will's name correctly). I don't know how "innovative" this pack design is, but it has all the features I want in a pack and seems to be the first of the under-2-lb. framed packs to have the stays actually connected to the hip belt.

On the other hand, I'm not in the market for a pack, because my almost 7-year-old pack from Six Moon Designs (2005 Comet, unfortunately discontinued) is still holding up just fine and is still very comfortable for me. I've had as much as 35 lbs. in it--my shoulders, back and hips felt fine, although my knees and feet were screaming--but most of my trips I'm under 25 lbs.

I will, however, be looking for a pack for my 12-year-old grandson in the spring, and the Kalais might be one of those on my list. Like me, he needs a good supportive frame with load lifters (evidently my pressure-sensitive shoulders are hereditary), but not a 3 1/2 to 4 lb. pack such as most of the "youth" packs on the market.

Edited by hikinggranny on 01/02/2012 13:00:17 MST.

I personally think the ripstop looks WAY cooler - but I have a non-ripstop ”packcloth” pack from the 1970's with no rips and only a few small spots of wear through where there was something hard on the inside at that position most of the time to provide the rocks something to abrade the fabric against.
I think the pack cloth is 420 denier. The pack weighs 3.0 lbs. It had 1 medium sized pocket and a simple flap lid. It has dense strap and belt padding that doesn't feel cushy, but carries lots of weight without digging in.
Wish someone still made simple durable packs...

John, if you want a burly pack without many features and aren't too concerned about weight, check out Cold Cold World. http://coldcoldworldpacks.com/

Andrew

> how you can align your map and compass accurately to one degree if you don't know "exactly" where you are?
'Alignment' is NOT the same as 'Location'. Very different in fact.

> an area that has an abundance of natural land features that show up on your map.
Actually, our area sound like BC. LOTs of forest with NO visibility. Forested plateau country - with canyons.

Yes, I know about map errors. Chuckle! Some of our topo maps are notorious. Some of them show gentle spurs with contours; reality is that very often those contour lines translate into decent cliff lines. Watersheds and ridges are usually not too bad though.

I have no objection at all to people preferring to use a GPS instead of a compass. It's a free world. But I will strongly refute the idea that the GPS has replaced the compass. NO WAY!

Cheers

Now let's have more articles on BPL about trips, techniques and experiences. Too much gear talk - almost obsessive and getting boring...

BPL helped me move from a heavy pack to lighter one. Thank you. It's helped my back and knees, allows me to travel further and arrive in better condition. It's been like moving from Economy to Business class...

But now I want to read about techniques, skills and knowledge as well as trips and these seem to be lacking on the site.

What does BPL stand for these days?

"But I will strongly refute the idea that the GPS has replaced the compass."

Besides, if you are standing still, the GPS receiver cannot tell you which way you are facing. In that respect, it can't tell north from south. Once you start moving, the GPS receiver can tell you which way you are moving, but it still can't tell you for sure which way you are facing. That's a big deal in the nautical environment.

Now, some of the wise GPS manufacturers have put a compass function into their normal GPS receivers. That's not such a bad idea. However, if that is a fluxgate compass, then it still requires battery power to operate.

Lots of GPS users complain about the lack of accuracy in positioning. Probably it is a lack of accuracy in the built-in map database, and the basic GPS receiver position data is very close. I suggest you take the lat/long numbers and find those on a paper map, and that will be very close.

--B.G.--

In defense of the former gear shop I always got good customer service. Addie and Sam where very easy to work with when there were some complications (long story but basically I was paying them for things at the same time BPL owed me money for an article so it got complicated).
In defense of Ryan, I might have written the article so there'd be less chance of confusion (I doublt he'd bash McHale packs for example, they seem to be the only pack he's used consistantly over long period). That said he's tried a lot more gear out than I have. If he thinks things could be better I'm inclined to at least listen.
Whether or not the cottage gear makers are "stagnant" is partly a question of perspective. On the one hand there have been some cool new ideas lately. On the other hand I think if you compare the big gear makers to the cottage makers the big companies are offering some nice, relatively light gear that your average Joe can use. Compared to that cottage gear makers haven't changed there basic offerings all that much in five years. Basically unless I want to go SUL there is less and less reason for me to go to a cottage gear maker than REI.

reposted on following page

Edited by jshortt on 01/03/2012 20:02:01 MST.

Good points Jamie, I hadn't really thought about exactly WHEN it became possible to put together an UL kit with mainstream gear so maybe things haven't changed all that much.
My only difference with your points would be to say that while UL gear has always been available I think its becoming easier to use. For exampe we now have lightweight double walled tents, internal frame packs, and inflatable pads. You can go quit light without learning any new skills or the tradeoffs that you would have made 5 or 10 years ago for the same baseweight. For a lot of people a 12 pound baseweight of mainstream gear thats easy to use will be a better value than a 7 pound baseweight with exotic gear and a steeper learning curve. Now of course WE like to get that 7 (or 4 pound baseweight) but we're also the purists.

Luke, Thanks for the reply. Since my post landed at the end of the previous page, I am reposting it in hopes to get some further discussion going....

I have waited to reply to this article so I could consider my response. On the surface I agreed with everything written, but something just did not sit right. Let me start with what I took as the main points of the article…

1 – There is benefit in consuming/owning less gear that applies to the entire sport off backpacking much like it does with respect to any one trip. Taking/owning less can bring us more happiness than the superficial joy of owning lots of things.

2 – Cottage manufactures have not delivered significant innovations over the past year to warrant buying/consuming new gear for those already at UL levels.

3 – Main stream manufacturers have made advancements over the last few years that make them a viable/potentially better alternative to cottage made gear.

The first point I absolutely get. I have begun my own minimalistic journey within my life so I can’t agree more with one looking at the gear they accumulate and consider when enough is enough. Simplifying ones gear closet would be a great BPL article.

It is points 2 & 3 that confuse me. I think we have seen many significant innovations over the last 1-2 years within the cottage world. Many have been listed in the responses. Is the innovation in this short period any reason to replace existing items? Probably not unless you are new to the UL world, which is maybe the point Ryan is making. I can agree with this, but I would argue that this is no different than 5 years ago. If you owned a Granite Gear Virga pack 5 years ago has there been a serious innovation since then that warranted a true need for a new pack?

What confuses me more is the idea that main stream manufacturers have suddenly begun to catch up to cottage making them a viable alternative or even better alternative to cottage made gear. I agree that main stream gear is a viable alternative to cottage gear, but I disagree that this anything new nor has the gap become more narrow.

I made my first sub 5 lb trip almost 4 years ago. I used gear primarily from main stream manufacturers and gear that had been available years prior. I have always encouraged people to look at main stream manufactures because it is easy to do for new ULer’s and there is a lot of great mainstream gear. You need less skill, knowledge, and patience to buy mainstream gear. Some time ago I published an UL gear list with gear entirely from REI (http://www.lytw8.com/Gear_Lists.html)* to demonstrate this. So I agree on the point, but disagree that this as something new to the market.

Can someone enlighten me (pun intended) as to the recent advancements made by mainstream manufactures that make them a better alternative in 2011-2012 that was not the case 5 years ago? To me this looks more like a shift in BPL to a mainstream market than it does a lack of innovation from cottage manufacturers or mainstream manufactures catching up. I don’t see this as wrong, but I would argue if you want the lightest most innovative gear continue to look to the cottage and recently the MYOG world. I hope BPL doesn’t abandon these groups.

In summary I don’t disagree with the arguments made about gear needs or the ability of main stream manufactures to fill this need. I do disagree that this is something new; rather I think it is a change in individual perspective.

Agree or disagree with everything written I applaud Ryan for writing such a bold article. I really like things that make you think hard, and this one has done just that. Thanks to all for the thoughtful dialogue.

Jamie

* For a sub 7 pound base weight from mainstream manufacturers consider a Granite Gear Virga Pack, Marmot Hydrogen Sleeping Bag, Golite Poncho Tarp, Montbell Dry-Tec bivy and UL down inner jacket. All are great gear that has been around for awhile and gear that I have used. Also it is all gear that I have replaced with cottage/MYOG gear and no longer sits in my closet. It sits in the hands of light weight backpackers across the country mostly thanks to BPL gear swap.

Jamie

Nice post...on the iPhone do I won't do it justice.

2. I think it has slowed. I don't see any ground breaking innovations. Most new packs and shelters are the result of fabric innovations. But this is natural as a market matures. I don't see it as a criticism. As was mentioned, there are only so many ways you can keep warm with down bags, see a pack, or construct a shelter.

Barring a new invention in insulation... A newer better primaloft that breaks way past current standards, or a leap forwards in event fabrics...manufacturers can only do do much. So I do see the chemist or scientist making a new artificial material the first step needed before a new wave in big 3 innovation.


3. I do see major manufacturers catching up. Partly do to cottage like going lite going big time. Partly as a result of the gradual technology increasing. The pioneered cottage stuff is being copied by big boys. We have titanium gear at rei. We have higher quality down bags. We have the osprey hornet. We have jetboil ti. It isn't like this year is sudden in this regard. It has been gradual here too. But finally we are getting big time msnufacturers with OPTIONS for different lighter gear.

I agree with the posters that say that UL isn't new its just a change in mental perspective on the individual level.
Most all of the innovation comes from the development of new lighter, stronger materials. The cottage industry was simply more willing to sell gear made from these new materials and keep the designs streamlined. As mainstream gear makers become more willing to make gear from these same materials the fundamental difference will be considerably less. Also mainstream manufactures were and are less willing to design more functional gear with out all the bells and whistles that add weight. In rare cases they do and sometimes its an easy matter of getting out the scissors (mostly not).
The thing is mainstream gear makers are in a good position to make really good light durable gear but they instead use their resources to make overly complex gear that looks shiny and "high tech". there is something in the mainstream makers marketing departments that says that people don't want simple functional gear. Maybe it looks too old fashioned? Too simple to justify high prices? Too boring compared to the high tech flashy foam/color trim/racing stripes?
Personally my aesthetic goes twords the simple and functional. I also fondly remember when one kit was all I or anyone else ever needed ( except winter ).
What I would like to see is the cottage industry pushing higher quality and better customer service compared to the mainstream. Many already do this.
The cottage industry has a lot of really solid designs. I do think they may want to rethink trying to appeal to the "fringe". Lets face it, the fringe are too finicky. What they really want is customized gear and most just end up making their own. I think they like to see new gear that pushes the limits just to give them ideas. They are probably not going to buy it off the shelf so why waste time on that small market?
Instead focus on the much wider market that wants light, durable, effective, and reliable gear made to a high standard and preferably socially conscious.
Ultra weight conscious ( to the point of diminishing returns )
Ultra high quality ( smart design, durable, efficient )

Thanks for the replies, keep them coming. I am truly trying to understand where this article is coming from, maybe I'm trying to read too much into it. But at the core I think Ryan is suggesting that mainstream gear is today a more viable alternative than it was some time ago. My opninion is that, if this is true that it has nothing to do with gear innovation, but rather peoples attitudes or possibly the market BPL wishes to serve.

My approach to gear...

I tend to have one list that I use for most of my backpacking. In the summer I use a different bag and move to a short sleeve shirt, and drop my puffy. Besides that it is one set of gear. It does change somewhat each time I go out. I enjoy trying out new approaches/gear, but as things move off my standard list they get sold. I do have a few items that need selling and they will likely show up over the next few months on gear swap.

I looked at my current gear list and here is the % distribution weight for the top 5 items.

Quilt - 29%
Shelter (bivy, tarp, & stakes) - 12%
WPB Shell Jacket - 11%
Down Jacket - 7%
Pack - 6%

So lets call these my big 5. If we are saying mainstream gear is catching up I assume this means mainstream gear has gotten better over say the last 5 years. Candidly I am not up on all the latest mainstream gear, but the items I would have bought/did buy from 5 years ago don't look much better today then they did then. So here are my big 5 from about 5 years ago.

Sleeping Bag - Marmot Hydrogen
Tent - MSR Hubba
WPB Jacket - OR Zealot
Down Jacket - MB Down Inner
Pack - Granite Gear Virga or Gregory G-Pack

So convince me now to buy new gear based on the advancements in mainstream gear from 2007 to 2012? Or if I was starting out today what should I buy that is a significant improvement over what I would have bought 5 years ago?

Jamie

Edited by jshortt on 01/04/2012 05:42:00 MST.

Edit : Removed stupid post.

Edited by kthompson on 01/04/2012 22:44:12 MST.

Jamie,
Always good comments. It's interesting to see how the original "big three" have changed into your "big five." The wt % of your shelter has plummeted to 12%, and your raincoat is now a bigger proportino of total pack weight. Ray Jardine did a great job by looking at the main contributors of weight, aqnd maybe BPL should revisit that analysis for typical gear kits like you have done to show the biggest bang for the buck (buck = grams or $$$'s)...either in terms of lowering weight or where we could best utilize it (e.g., value of bivy vs. larger tarp).

Ken,
I suspect that Ryan is sitting back and listening for now. However, I (like others) hope that he has more personal involvement with BPL forums in 2012.

Tom

What do you want Ryan to say? Could he say anything that wouldn't be dissected and analyzed to death?

He wrote an article and posted comments twice. It has been "quoted" and spewed about for 10 pages. There are those that agree and those that disagree. I don't see that anything positive can come from a tit-for-tat from the ceo of a website.

Dave

Edited by dmgoody on 01/04/2012 07:28:00 MST.

Edit. Removed stupid post.

Edited by kthompson on 01/04/2012 22:43:12 MST.

Sleeping Bag - Marmot Hydrogen
Tent - MSR Hubba
WPB Jacket - OR Zealot
Down Jacket - MB Down Inner
Pack - Granite Gear Virga or Gregory G-Pack

Sleeping Bag - Marmot Hydrogen ... same or one of the many light offerings from TNF, SD, or many other manufacturers
Tent - terra nova laser or even one of the lighter BA or other such tents from many other manufacturers
WPB Jacket - OR Zealot ... same or for a bit or weight savings, TNF triumph, or marmot nano, or many other manufacturers
Down Jacket - MB Down Inner ...MB EXL, or rab, or TNF, or something from many other manufacturers
Pack - Granite Gear Virga or Gregory G-Pack ... same virga, or ...TNF verto, dead bird cierzo 25, MEC travel light top loader, etc ... for a bit of savings

notice how i keep saying many other manufacturers ... because that type of gear is now quite commonly available

you missed the pad BTW ... i suspect that would be significant in the weight

its not to the"weight" of a cottage setup ... but it is "light enough" i suspect for many here ... it is often on sale .. you may well be able to try it on in the store ... and you may well be able to easily return it ... and it has those "cool" brand logos to impress the bears ...

if you look at tents i suspect youll see manufacturers lighten them all the time, or some makers are lightening their shelters while "fudging" the definition of 2p .... same with clothing, and packs, etc ..

while years ago there definitely was some UL" mainstream" gear ... everyone IMO is getting in the act these days, which provides greater exposure and accessibility to the masses ... and better deals for us all ... when TNF and EB really get into the act,you know it aint "elite" anymore ;)

Hi folks,

I know we have been speaking about innvovation and the Big boys catching up with the Cottage kids.

Do folk think that materials can get any lighter, stronger or warmer in the next 5 years.

I wonder have we reached a pinnacle, or is the next big thing around the corner.

I live in hope :-)

Stephen

Neverwet.com. It remains vaporware w/plenty of erudite resident skeptics (e.g. Will Rietveld et. al) but it could be a game changer...though not in your lighter, stronger or warmer categories necessarily. Even if it ultimately proves to be not breathable (as I suspect), or difficult to apply to the fabrics used in clothing, shelters, quilts or packs, imagine the benefits of applying it to boots, snowshoes, crampons...

Edited by lammers8 on 01/04/2012 14:31:51 MST.

The next major innovation will be helium-inflated pack frames that multi-function as float-like-a-cloud sleeping pads, leading to SZBPW (Sub-Zero Base Pack Weight).

The next major innovation will be helium-inflated pack frames that multi-function as float-like-a-cloud sleeping pads, leading to SZBPW (Sub-Zero Base Pack Weight).

Here you go, Richard. A thread from back in 2006. If you go to the 2nd page and scroll halfway down, you get my prototype for the Zero-G Pole-less Shelter.

LOL Miguel I love that idea! We joked about helium packs once but your truly took that idea to a new level. Also its good insurance against bears. No more arguements about guns and bear spray, just stay ten feet up and watch the bears below!

That Zero-G Shelter is a genuine gem, Miguel! A real "Tinkerbell" solution!

It would give fly-fishing a whole new meaning. And just think of its significance for the LNT movement!

Yet, as Randy Travis once said, "on the other hand" . . . as gear floats easier and easier, think LA freeways. Or better yet, JFK International!

Hordes of all those new folks massed along "trail airways" -- taking the "wild" out of wilderness.

And no more packrafts, either!!! Why be a rower when you can be a soarer?

Can backcountry flight plans and frequent packer-flier miles be next?

Flashing forward with the "less is more" movement -- more in fact becomes less, as in more and more crowds mean less and less of what's best to be found out there, to the point of diminishing the incidental but nevertheless intrinsic rewards of wilderness views/experiences that are made even more valued by the challenge.

Those would be truly regretable consequences of atom-splitting innovations in ever-lightening loads.

Heck, maybe SUL solely for the sake of SUL sows the seeds that will produce nothing to go SUL about because the wilderness experience has become SOL.

Maybe what's needed is a campaign promoting heavier packs since they build character and preserve the wilderness.

And bears might be the last barrier to the masses! If folks are going to start literally floating around the wilderness, need to start rumors: Bears fly!

Edited by JRScruggs on 01/06/2012 11:22:46 MST.

Thanks to all that replied to my posts.

Tom/Eric, I admit my current setup is mostly MYOG and fringe, I purposely didnt show weight but rather percents. But when in the woods I always have what I need. Yes Eric the pad is the 6th item on my list. The 7th item would likely surprise folks, it is a pair of low cut smartwool Phd socks. Yeah the 7th heaviest item in my pack are my socks. Thats how crazy things are these days.

Tom, Glad you brought on Jardine. I have often wondered why he never advanced things significantly beyond his 8 lb kit. I was disappointed when I get my copy of Trail Life and his list was the same dam list he published in beyond backpacking. I wondered has this guy not made any advancements in 10 years. He still uses the same basic materials and prmotes the same approach, yeah with tweeks like gorgets for the quilts but overall not much has changed. Maybe he realized 10 years ago there was not much point to going beyond "beyond packpacking". I always liked this guy, but maybe he is even wiser than I gave him credit for.

Maybe this is where Ryan is coming from. The energy required to go from 8 to 5 to 3 lb kits is probably not work it for 99.9% of backpackers. And heck if you really just want a 12 lb or less kit you can easily get this from REI, and I'd go as far to say a 7 lb kit from campsaver.com.

Eric, From all the items you offered up I am not sure I would jump to change to any of them over what I originally listed. But what you have shown me is that there are a lot of options these days. So maybe the catching up part I was trying to understand is not that there is any one piece of gear today from mainstream that is much better than it was 5 years ago (i.e. catching up), but that there are more options being offered by more manufacturers (i.e. more manufacturers catching up). EB for one is a good example. This does allow people to shop sales by buy crazy good pieces of gear at great discounts. This is good for making lightweight more accessible to the masses.

As a general rule I believe cottage industry still provides the most advanced gear found and I continue to enjoy seeing what comes from the cottage companies, not true for main stream. I do think the cottage companies real opportuniy to appeal to a larger market is by offering better lead times. I once waited 3 months for an item. It is crazy to think that any company can survive with this kind of wait. It is only true because they offer something special to a small group.

I have appreciated the way this article and the many pages of responses have made me stretch my thinking.

Jamie

Edited by jshortt on 01/06/2012 18:51:51 MST.

I would like to see a sample 12lb kit made from REI...


-christy

"I would like to see a sample 12lb kit made from REI..."

-Golite Jam
-Golite 20 degree quilt
-Integral designs siltarp 8x10
-Vargo alcohol stove with Snow Peak 450ml pot.
-Montbell UL down jacket
-NeoAir
-Katadyn MicroPur tablets
-OR beanie

Pretty sure this is under 12lbs.

What do you want Ryan to say? Could he say anything that wouldn't be dissected and analyzed to death?

Er, I'm pretty sure that Ryan wrote the article and had the forum appended to it in great part to instigate just such a discussion. He was perfectly aware that it would create dissension. All par for course. When you publish in the public arena, most especially when you editorialize, you have to be prepared to thicken your skin. It's what publishing has always been about. He put the words out there... it's fair game. Doesn't mean we have to be unpleasant, rude, or unkind about it, though.

NM

Edited by FamilyGuy on 01/06/2012 20:10:18 MST.

Christy, I did an all REI list under 10 lbs it includes packed and carried items. It is on my site....

LytW8_Gear_Lists

You might also find the cheap list interesting as well. I have an update to the cheap list that is under $300 when ever I get around to updating it.

Jamie

David, I have found REI to change constantly. My list will have some of this as well, but right now the Golite quilts are not available at REI online, I assume same for stores. Also I don't think REI has ever carried Montbell, at least I have never seen it for sale on line or in store. Doesn't look like the siltarp is available either, but I am pretty sure it was at one time. The jam pack is on sale and only 1 of 3 golite items shown so REI might be dropping golite altogether or just waiting for new season's line up. I can confirm that you can at least buy the micropur tablets in the store:) Again my REI list is old and will probably have many items no longer available, but when I first published it I did confirm you could order each item on the list onine at the time.

If you check out my basic ultralight list it looks alot like yours. Mine needs updating though. The main difference between my basic list and ultralight list or REI list is I allowed myself to use online sources for gear like campsaver.com or backcountrygear.com. I think it stakes more knowledge to branch out beyond REI and buy online.

I consider buying/obtaining gear to be a skill into itself. Least amount of skill is just go to REI; next is REI+ online like campsaver or backcountrygear; advanced buyers can expand into cottage sources; most advanced specify what they what from cottage (custom made to your requirements); and last group simply makes their own gear.

Jamie

Edited by jshortt on 01/06/2012 20:48:03 MST.

deleted

Edited by rOg_w on 05/28/2012 17:20:10 MDT.

REI did carry a few Montbell items back in abouts 2003-2004. That is where I bought my down inner jacket with the snaps, no zipper.

Jamie,

You stated, "And heck if you really just want a 12 lb or less kit you can easily get this from REI, and I'd go as far to say a 7 lb kit from campsaver.com"..

I just wanted to see it.. Much food for thought. A hearty thanks for the detailed gear list link on your blog site. I will study it more. Clelland's book has been a big help as well. I was actually just on your site but didn't look at ultralight list because I just didn't think I could do it.

There are limits to the lists...

I understand that buying gear is a skill and one I still don't have. Purchases come with much thought and mulling over and then it seems, I can still get it wrong. I lack the experience in the field, things I think work, don't always. I have been trying to lighten my pack for awhile now and pretty sure it's not under 12lbs. It's a struggle and sometimes frustrating to read that it can be done with much less thought and implied more ease.

"Blow Joe who knows nothing can just go to REI and do it easily one stop shopping"(Just as an example). I wouldn't guarantee that if Blow Joe walked into REI knowing nothing, he would be walking out with a 12lb base weight... even if he had a gear list to work with. His wallet would be lighter and most likely his pack would be heavier. I bought a Pinnacle at REI and I was advised that the pack wouldn't really hold any kind of weight(well there where two of them arguing over that).. I bought it because I knew of the concept as a frameless pack, the torso fit, the price was right & it was WAY lighter than my last pack. "Joe" isn't going to know that he must stick with the list. A staffer can easily sway a noob into many recommend heavier items. You have to have knowledge(know what your looking for) or someone to back you up during the buying process. The Pinnacle has been a 'swonderful bag for me... yet, it still appears to be overweight by most ultralight standards. For me to lighten up further, I could also alter my pack further but this also takes time and knowledge. "Joe" isn't going to want to cut his brand new pack up.

I also don't have an endless supply of money so some of the mistakes I've made, I have to live with. It's hard on one hand always reading "just go to REI and walk out with under 12lbs" when on the other hand, I'm also told, I should be making mindful smart purchases. It's not just about getting 12lbs @ REI but to also have gear that works for the individual it is intended for. To clarify, I don't just buy gear at REI. It was because it has been said it CAN be done. I would rather do cottage if I could. I'm not ready for a tarp/raingear just yet and neither are my hiking partners. Also, I might need more underwear... Giggle. I do mostly 8-10 day trips too.

That being said, if you want to help me get my gear load under 12 lbs that would be supertastic. :P

Other examples:
I'm struggling with my sleeping bag.. I sleep cold.. ubber cold. So I figure I need a 20 degree bag. My current bag is a synthetic 2lbs 4oz and 35 degrees and doesn't keep me warm in the summer, not close at all. I don't fit slim bags but I would try a quilt. I've considered the Kelty 20, but I'd basically be trading same weights spending more money and still not shedding any weight.. Actually I'd be adding 4oz but more likely to sleep without shivering. I've done lots of reading about various bags but it's still hard to make that final decision based on just what you've read.

Because of some hip issues and being a side sleeper, I could not use a Standard Blue Foam as a mattress.. I mean, I could technically and have tried it, I can also be very grumpy and sore. Not much enjoyment in that... I have a 16oz pad that works but it's not in the ubber light zone either.

I love all the gear lists but to me, it's just not that easy... To become ultralight you've spent time and money and experience getting there... After all that, maybe it's easy to make gear lists but it probably wasn't simple or easy getting there. I appreciate learning from it so I don't make more mistakes... but easy for me, it is not :P

-christy

jamie ...

that was simply my point exactly ... it is not that any mainstream gear is any better that cottage gear ... but it is now more widely available IMO ... this means sales, discount, no questions asked return policies, the ability to try it on, and no waiting periods

IMO if you can get it under 10-12 lbs, which yr REI list shows ... its a very viable and for some people, perhaps superior option to cottage

crhisty ...

if REI stuff is too heavy ... simply return it ... or if it doesnt work ... i see threads all the time about gear that doesnt work out here ... wouldnt it be nice if people could return it to REI instead of selling it at a bit of a loss on gear swap, which they cant do anyways if they are non members

if a person chooses to use cottage gear its up to them ... but there are quite a few light and fast sponsored climbers, skiers, runners, and other athletes that are pushing the physical and mental limits with "mainstream" gear that is getting lighter IMO ...

You might look into a hammock if you find you just can't get comfortable on the ground.

Eric, Thanks for helping me to understand something I was struggling with, I am on the same page as you.

Christy, My apologies for making it sounds easy. It took a lot of dedicated time and effort and yes some money to get to where I am at. If interesting the details, my story did make it into a BPL article some time ago. If you go to my home page www.lytw8.com you can find a link to it "Jamie's Lightweight Testimony". I think it will show that I didn't just walk into REI and one day and I was done, but interesting enough the story did begin by me just walking into REI.

I purposefully promote REI for new folks to lightweight BPing that don't have tons of money to spend. Why? they have actual stores so you can try things on, have the REI outlet that often has great sales and sometimes an additional 30%, each quarter you get 20% coupon, and MOST importantly REI wants you satisfied so they will take back anything you have purchased that is not right for you (now matter how used it is). My recommendation is to use this liberally but not take advantage of it.

If twelve pounds is a target then the Transition Lighweight List is probably the best for it. It has a framed pack and double wall tent. It was right at 12 lbs and still used stuff entirely from REI (at the time I made it) and walmart. Saving coins with a down Kelty cosmic 20 and upgrading to an inflatable will only add about a pound of weight. I found a base weight of 12-14 lbs really changed my backpacking experience in a positive way without any downside.

Jamie

Wow is right.

Rog Wilmers, that was a very well articulated post.

Is it not obvious that without the UL cottage industry, you wouldn't be able to buy a full kit of UL gear from the mainstream manufacturers?
Two proverbs come to mind. One involves not biting a hand, and the other is something about a goose laying 'shiny' eggs.

deleted

Edited by rOg_w on 05/28/2012 17:20:56 MDT.

Roger,

You stated what I tried to do at the beginning of this thread. Good job.

Rog for BPL President!

To be honest, I have not learned a single thing about lightening my pack from Ryan Jordan in the 3 years I have been here. All of the forum members and the rest of the staff I learn from almost daily. I did enjoy his posts about getting out on trips with his kids. More of those please RJ.

There is no stagnation at all , not in the cottage nor in mainstream outdoor manufacturing industry.
What happens is that the more we know , the less we are impressed with something new.
Same reason why many feel that "salespeople know less and less".

Lets pretend that you know nothing at all about tents.
You walk into REI , it has 10 on display and you get all overwhelmed about the choice and the incredible knowledge the sales person has (remember that at this point everything is new to you...)
Fast forward 10 years and hundreds of hours on the Net and .. you know more about tents than most and ,well, there isn't all that much that is new , is there ?

Another aspect is that of course we are only enthused by what is of interest to us.
Personally I don't think that taking fish out of the water and shoving them back is all that much fun so I don't really care if there was a 1oz Tenkara rod, but if you do, that would be something (?)
Or, for example, if HH came out with a full hammock kit, including all the winter bits, at 1 lbs exactly, it would not make any impact on me at all because I simply don't like hammocks.
In other words, stagnation is not a "fact" it is just the perception of someone that sees no new toys of interest for himself , but others do...
BTW, to state that products should be revolutionary and not just evolutionary makes as much sense to me as asking why someone does not just fix the economy.

Franco

Well put Franco

Well put Franco. +1

Rog :) Thank you for articulating what I've been thinking. Im a happy person that can let things go but this thing keeps meandering into my consciousness. After a long deliberation I finally signed up recently. My entire reason was to continue outfitting myself for an extended hike. Almost all of my gear was purchased from the good people of the cottage industry, so the twenty something bucks that this site gained from me was almost entirely due to these small business people. They also inspired me to create some, I feel, inventive gear that I was going to share but the harsh tone has left me at this point unwilling. A PHD is no excuse for unkind or unbusiness-like behavior and a pedestal is unstable place to be or defend As a newbie to this site I'm not impressed with those few offending paras and enough so that I actually feel there should be some words of apology. I would very much appreciate it and I think some others would as well My very first introduction to something smacking of UL was Willi Unsoeld suggesting that I ditch my hiking boots for a pair of sneakers in the 70's. So, I don't know maybe it's a generational thing ... The quality or thoughtfulness of communique that is.... Thank you for your time.

Edited by Janefree on 01/17/2012 12:52:11 MST.

I agree: +1

I was really excited about continuing to research gear for my travels. This article put me in a bit of slump.

I think it was written as an end-of-year kick-in-the-rear (tough love?) meant to stimulate the cottage gear makers to make things happen in the coming year. Ryan probably knew it could be or would be perceived as harsh. A few sentences could have been left out and the article would have achieved the same "goal".

Edited by jshann on 01/08/2012 19:18:25 MST.

I realize BPL is mostly about gear, but here's part of the stagnation problem for me:

"Maybe this evolution of ultralight philosophy is exactly where we've been headed all along:

Pack less, buy less, and love what you do buy."

Shouldn't the rally cry of ultralight backpacking be about backpacking and not gear? I mean, the 5.2 oz versus 4.6 oz statement is right, that's all irrelevant, but really so is the innovation or lack thereof if the travel itself isn't the focus.

Sure, my kit has improved so much in the last ten years, but it's all a moot point if I'm really putting myself out there, actually backpacking. Gear and the obsession over improving one's kit in one way or another is enjoyable, but it should all be a vehicle to actually getting out there and getting others out there. The make/model/price/weight of equipment is secondary to where it takes you.

Exactly. Measure your inventory of days off each year and divide it into the number of hiking days. The number could be called something like BP Life Efficiency. Anything above 50% is good. Instead of paring this number down we would want to increase it. More is better.

Edited by ngatel on 01/10/2012 09:57:33 MST.

Ryan Jordan's "Cottage Stagnation and Recent Gems" article makes me chuckle. It should have been called:
"Narcissistic, Elitist, Spoiled Brat With Delusions Of Grandeur Trying To Remain Relevant and Edgy So People Renew Their Subscriptions And I Don't Have To Get A Real Job."

I also find it hilarious that Mr. Jordan (or Dr, or PHD, or Witch Doctor, etc) named the Backcountry Boiler as one of his 2011 Backpacking Light Staff Picks...not because it's not deserving of it (it IS), but because, not too long ago, he was recommending we all buy the rip-off clone, the M Kettle. Ryan had NO IDEA that Devin had been working on the Boiler for over a year on HIS (Ryan's) own site! The BPL community had to tell him. Talk about "out of touch" and "stagnation". For years Ryan has been neglecting the quality of the articles here on BPL. I mean, really...how many freakin' UL down sweater articles can we read in one year without wanting to poke our eyes out with a SUL titanium spork (cut in half, of course!)? How about a new site name while were at it? Packrafting-Light? Tenkara-Light? That's some reasons i did not renew my subscription this year, along with lots of others, i'm sure. Seems to me like BPL just "Jumped The Shark" with this latest article of his.

Instead of attacking the cottage community, Mr. Jordan should have been thanking them for their contributions and encouraging them to keep up the good work! How many of us would still be using a 6 pound tent if not for Henry Shires? Or lugging it all around in an 8 lb. Osprey pack if there was no Glen Van Peski to create Gossamer Gear for us? I know that i would personally still be freezing my butt off in my hammock if Jacks-R-Better had not been created. It seems to me that the only "stagnation" going on around here is Backpacking Light itself. Thank God for the Forums!

At this point, Ryan is coming across as the William Shatner of the backpacking community. Some may criticize this as harsh, but no more so than Ryan's article was.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lul-Y8vSr0I

M

Edited by bigfoot2 on 01/11/2012 16:46:56 MST.

I got to thinking again and something made me google 'innovation is dead'. It looks to be a current theme circulating the vast halls of the internet. Whad da ya know!?

http://techcrunch.com/2011/09/12/max-levchin-and-peter-thiel-innovation-in-the-world-today-is-between-dire-straits-and-dead/

http://coconutheadsets.com/2011/10/30/innovation-is-dead-it-was-killed-by-innovation/

http://www.businessweek.com/innovate/NussbaumOnDesign/archives/2008/12/innovation_is_d.html

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FLNPHkySj58

http://www.innovationexcellence.com/blog/2011/10/05/steve-jobs-is-dead-whither-innovation-at-apple/

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xmwsid_peter-thiel-on-the-effect-of-stagnation-on-silicone-valley_lifestyle

&

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xnmtf8_how-to-deal-with-a-hangover-at-work_lifestyle#rel-page-12

Edited by wildlife on 01/14/2012 02:21:27 MST.

I wonder if Ryan would have worded his editorial differently if he knew it would elicit this type of response.

I will discuss his criticisms from another point of view, of someone who also used to be in the sporting goods business.

My family owned an independent sporting goods store for quite a long time - we sold snow ski / snowboard equipment, backpacking / camping equipment, fishing equipment and shoes and clothing. I can't speak for today's business climate, but I can speak for the times more than decade ago - the margins in sporting goods were fairly small on most hard goods (equipment). The simple fact is that the equipment is costlier to begin with, stores must carry a wide assortment to meet the needs of its customers and at the end of the season, the remaining gear generally was discounted significnatlyto get it to move off the shelves. Thus, the actual margins enjoyed by a sporting goods store, when averaged over all the hard goods, is less than one might think. I am sure there are others who work at stores who can speak to this fact.

Clothing, on the other hand, has a broader appeal because you can wear a technical jacket around town. Most people shop for fashion as much as functionality. Nothing wrong with that. Yes, I have read often here and on other boards people decry the gradual migration many stores have made from a "gear heads" paradise to more of a mass consumer clothier. (I am looking at you, REI.) But frankly, it would be very, very difficult to sell enough hard gear to justify the capital investment and risk. REI understands this and broadened its appeal to beyond the hardened outdoorsman (and woman) by selling an image of the "active" adult (and family). This is reflected in its clothings lines and much of the gear. But hey, it does make it possible to carry things that would only appeal to backpacking enthusiasts.

Backpacking gear at my family's store wasn't a huge part of our income - less than 10 percent. Why? Well, how many backpacks/sleeping bags/tents does a person need? (Ok, the backpackinglight.com crowd excluded). I am talking the average hiker. Like many posters in this thread have pointed out, backpacking is a fairly simple sport that doesn't require a lot of stuff. And the gear generally lasts a long time if you take even decent care of it.

For these reasons I imagine few, if any, of the cottage manufactures are getting rich producing backpacking gear even during the best of times. I can only speak for myself, but in recent years I've spent less on gear because I've re-prioritized spending habits to conform with the harsh economic realities. (And I have a good career). I imagine many of you have modified your spending habits as well. As a result, it is fair to assume many gear manufactures have chosen to curb product development accordingly. It makes little sense to invest a ton into R&D if you have little hope of recouping your initial investment.

It would be great to build a double-walled tent out some new high tech material that weighs only 12 ounces. But if the cost of the materials would effectively double the price of the tent over the 16 ounce version, how many of you would be willing that steep cost to drop four ounces? There is really a sweet spot in terms of pricing for most gear, so manufactures must build gear with this in mind. Unless you have a prestige brand (think Leica), few people are going to pay a premium that much above "market norms".

Which goes to the heart of innovation. We are seeing innovation now. Maybe not as much as during the boom times, but it is there. Among greatest incentives for innovation is the potential for profit. The people who make the gear we love can only continue to innovate if they have the capital to do so. By purchasing gear from the cottage manufacturer, you are investing in future products and innovation.

Yes, people and companies can grow complacent. And that complacency will be rewarded in the marketplace only as long as someone else doesn't come along and invent a better (and lighter) mousetrap. Right now, any perceived lack of innovation may be a result of companies just trying to hold on and weather this economic downtown.

Dirk

Edited by dirk9827 on 01/14/2012 05:13:46 MST.

Dan,
I work about as far away from a cottage industry as you can be, a Fortune 500 company. I can tell you that there is an incredible amount of discussion around stagnation in our industry which is laundry products. I would challenge you to come up with a single major technical AND financial winner over the last ten years? And I'm sure that this discussion goes well beyond our categories.

Also as you well know innovation can take many forms. There are innovations in manufacturing that could allow the same product to be produced for less. There could be innovation in customer service that comes up with new ways of ensuring that consumers are satisfied. From what I read on your business I would consider the way you send test packs out for fitting to be very innovative and likely increases consumer satisfaction. Finally, should a small business in this economy be focused on product innovation? Maybe, but being innovative in other areas could be the difference between success and failure.

Edited by gg-man on 01/14/2012 10:01:26 MST.

is the biggest overused mumbo jumbo word by those who want to be seen to be "innovative"

to simple put IMO ... all it means is doing things in a better, possibly new way ... with very tangible results

the market will decide how "innovative" you are ...

has there been products put out last year that have improved the outdoor experience in a better new way with very tangible results ???

You know, I was trying to make the point that even Ryan's editorial was not from an original place, but taken from the net. Perhaps the editorial would appear less caustic if people knew it's theme is not even original. Maybe Ryan was trying so hard to be 'Novel' that he missed the part where he was insulting people. It's one thing for a critic to address the stagnation in Silicone valley (whatever that means really), but it gets a little more personal going after the backpacking cottage industry.

At some point the innovation game becomes a sickness and is there for its own sake and not people. People just become obstacles in the way of innovation after awhile, and that is what people feel coming through Ryan's editorial maybe. That's what I feel anyway. There's plenty of innovation - what there is not enough of is time to appreciate all of it.

Maybe the next great innovation will be for mankind to advance without another world war, but this entire attitude that innovation rules, just calls out for economic war. Ryan's attitude just pits cottage companies against one another, rather than creating an atmosphere of mutual respect.

Edited by wildlife on 01/14/2012 15:24:49 MST.

Dan, re your: "There's plenty of innovation - what there is not enough of is time to appreciate all of it."

Or enough money, either.

And re your: "Ryan's attitude just pits cottage companies against one another, rather than creating an atmosphere of mutual respect."

Tough love works, too, perhaps? At least sometimes? And criticism doesn't necessarily exclude respect.

On your comment that Ryan's commentary "pits cottage companies against one another": Probably because I'm not a cottage company, that thought or possibility hadn't even remotely crossed my mind until I read it in your post.

It's always seemed to me that most cottage companies were mostly focused on producing mostly unique products that mostly couldn't be found elsewhere.

["Most" and "mostly" sure are great grease words! Learned that from Ryan and Chris' pre-review of the Porter pack, and comments thereto!]

Caution! More opinion ahead:

Special value (or features or qualities) of products from cottage companies might be partly (or, in truth, exclusively) due the fact that "nowhere else" can "it" be found (whatever "it" is being sought by the consumer) -- and the success of "it" depends upon whether "it" works real good for me (or for him, or for her), whether or not "it" works for anyone else.

Also, a pack is not just a pack. Some packs are "McHale" packs, while some others are "ULA" packs, or "Gossamer Gear" or "MLD" -- all packs, but all different as refelecting each cottage company's style and path to an "ideal" pack. Same for tents, tarps, bivies, and more.

Haven't read Ryan's commentary in a long time (seems a long time, anyway, with all the comments to read in this thread), but he did at least accomplish one thing for sure: A long, long thread!

Seriously, or more seriously, isn't this just about opinions in the end? Some good, some bad, but opinions even so? I really don't believe Ryan has set out to start a war with any or all cottage companies.

Opinions expressed so far have been interesting to read (in one way or another) and sometimes even enlightening.

That's good. Right? Hope so, since everyone's got 'em.

Edited by JRScruggs on 01/14/2012 12:00:50 MST.

Glen from Gossamer Gear posted - he didn't seem offended. Who else was offended from the cottage manufacturer side?

Edited by FamilyGuy on 01/14/2012 15:23:17 MST.

You really expect a scientific conclusion from your poll David? Apparently you expect everyone to have the same opinion or even expect everyone to express their opinion. It's not going to happen.

Edited by wildlife on 01/14/2012 15:29:50 MST.

Dan, you mentioned that the cottage manufacturers were 'pitted against' each other. Who? I would like you to support your claim.

Ryan made a few comments that were his own opinion. You make it sound like these opinions will drive people's buying habits. They shouldn't. We can all think for ourselves here.

“At some point the innovation game becomes a sickness and is there for its own sake and not people. People just become obstacles in the way of innovation after awhile, and that is what people feel coming through Ryan's editorial maybe. That's what I feel anyway. There's plenty of innovation - what there is not enough of is time to appreciate all of it.”

This innovation thread has been pounding my brain ever since I got back from vacation, and the few posts I made don’t convey all my thoughts. Perhaps I can’t wrap my head around it. I know the cottage industry is innovative, will continue to be so, and I also know that innovation is driven by consumer demand for what is needed or desired by the marketplace. The other disturbing thought is that last year’s or the previous year’s new innovative product are no longer any good or not up to speed with innovation; that we constantly need something that is brighter, shinier, lighter, more efficient, etc. It is like the spoiled child who tires of his new toy and demands something new.

So what is innovation anyway? Is it a flash in the pan product that fades away in a short period of time? Or is it something that lasts in the marketplace a long time, is imitated and refined by those who follow? To me an innovative product it the one that stands the test of time. And products which stand the test of time provide usefulness and value to those who purchase them. As pointed out earlier by another member, the innovation often includes service and product support… the personal touch that the cottage manufacturers excel at. Heck you can communicate directly with such innovators like McHale, Shires, Moak, Bell, Velsco, Marshall and host of others easily by phone or email. Try that with Patagonia, MSR, et al!

Over the past couple of months I have been directed by the “Boss” to clean and consolidate the storage areas of our garage. And a lot of this storage is camping and hiking gear. Gear that is spread all over our house and storage areas is now moving to a designated area. Some of this gear is “vintage” and is still used occasionally; some I forgot about and will rotate back into use, other stuff is good but will go to charity where it can be used more frequently. One of the reasons it is taking so long is my perchance to tinker, rebuild, and restore old things. Along with this restoration, organization, and purging has been a lot of thought and memories in regard to innovation, technology, and good old “it works” thinking. So I thought I would share some of my thoughts.

Key to equipment is fabrics and materials. Without them, the cottage industry cannot build excellent products for us to use because for the most part, our cottage industry excels in design and construction, not scientific research. Where would we be without wool, nylon, Spectra, down, aluminum, titanium, stainless steel, brass, needles, thread, sewing machines, fuel, etc.?

I recently gave away the first down sleeping bag I bought (in 1971). It worked well for over twenty years but was heavy by today’s standards. Down has been used for how long as insulation? A long time. We owe a lot to that first person who used it to insulate. Along with new shell materials, higher fill, and design modifications, how much can we improve on it? And how can we praise a single manufacturer as having the most innovative bag or quilt. They are all variations on a theme. WM, Nunatak, Marshall, Katabalic, and a cast of many all make great products. All are a variation on a theme. The variations work well for different people and are innovative of themselves. In my mind none have taken the world by storm, but each has unique properties that bring value to their customers. I happen to have three favorite brands, three different systems for different needs. But I don’t see any earth shattering innovation in this area, and I am not mentally demanding that someone makes a better one. What I have works well, is light enough and spending additional money to test the newest and greatest is not logical to me.

Part of my reorganization has focused on stoves. I have a few and have spent many evenings the past couple of months cleaning and rebuilding some of them. Most I use occasionally and some newer ones I use most of the time. But all of them are truly innovative in some manner. Are all of them light enough for my needs, and should I be searching for stove nirvana every single year? For the most part the answer is yes to the first and a definite “no” to the last. I just finished rebuilding my two Svea 123 stoves (they are the non-self cleaning models). Rebuilding is really a misnomer; there is nothing to go wrong other than replacing the fuel cap gasket. The design is more than a 100 years old, doesn’t break, is aesthetically pleasing and easy to use once you learn how. After I polished them, they look like works of art and perform like new. And fuel for them is readily available. The next two stoves in my inventory are canisters; an Optimus 731 and a Gaz Globe Trotter. Very light for their time, worked well, and now obsolete because the fuel canisters are no longer available. But they will remain in my inventory because of the fondness I have for them and the memories of many good trips. Both, in my opinion, were innovative products of their time. One of the most famous stoves of all time, is my 1980s MSR Whisperlite. A true workhorse and wonderful snow melter. For me it is finicky and takes too much maintenance compared to the Svea, but it has served me well for over two decades and it does work better in serious snow conditions than the Svea. And now for a variation on a theme, my Gaz TriStar remote canister. I Don’t know who made the first remote canister, but this one solved the problem of wind in the desert along with the convenience of a canister. Not the lightest stove, but it works well. I have a Snow Peak GS-100 and it is light, but in my mind not innovative unless you consider weight and efficiency (without wind)… the innovation came long before this stove, but it made improvements. Last is the stove I use most… the Trail Designs Caldera Cone GVP. This stove is a variation of several themes and integrates pot, drinking cup, stove stand, windscreen, multiple fuels, compactness, and light weight. Can’t simmer with it, not great for cold temperatures, but it does what I need for three seasons of the year. This is truly an innovative product and I see no need to continuous searching for a better stove. What’s the point? I can save the time needed to research new stoves (time is a limited commodity – each of us will run out of it at some point), and I can save my money. Cooking with wood is going backwards in my opinion, and I just leave all the wood I see on the ground where it belongs. So, a few years ago the Caldera Cone was the most innovative product to many people, and it is no longer innovative? It is one of those products that will more than likely pass the test of time along with the Svea and the Whisperlite.

I can’t think of a single person who shaped backpacking more than Dick Kelty. Like the current crop of cottage manufacturers, he was an outdoorsman. He brought curved aluminum frames, nylon bags, and waist straps to market. It is arguable who did each of these first, but Kelty integrated them best. Heavy by today’s standards, generations of backpackers explored the wilderness with Keltys and the other external frames of the companies that followed. My first Kelty is over 40 years old, and was my main pack for 35 years. It passes the age test for innovation. And it still is in good condition. Today the external frame design has been supplanted by internal frames, of which Kelty built one of the first. I think Lowe actually invented it. I have owned several. The innovator here today is McHale, who integrates durability, functionality, longevity, suspension, comfort, and aesthetics into a single pleasing package. I expect it will last as long as my Kelty, but unfortunately I will not be around that long. All the others internals I have in inventory will be donated to good causes and will not remain in my garage. McHale packs pass the longevity test.

What about frameless packs? They have been around for decades, and the cycle repeats itself. They come out, people start putting small frames in them, they morph into internal frame packs, don’t last, and the cycle repeats itself. Have you noticed that MLD, Gossamer Gear, Six Moons, zPacks, and others are now following the cycle? This is not a lack of innovation, but companies that listen to what their customers want.

Clothing fabrics come and go. Polypropylene, polyesters, hybrids, GoreTex, eVent, other membranes, and everyone is waiting breathlessly for the next miracle fabric. Wool has been around for centuries and we still find that it is one of the best materials around. Shells that need to protect it come and go yearly and we still are searching for WB nirvana. My 1980s Sierra Designs wind jacket and pants breathe about as well as the current crop, have pockets, weight a little more and have been in use for over 20 years. I have owned a plethora of rain shells, and I constantly go back to the simple poncho. Breathes, holds up, and is inexpensive. There is a lot of innovation from the cottage manufacturers in this realm with multi-use configurations. Again variations on a theme.

I have owned very few tents until the past three of four years, as I drank the Tent Kool-Aid in search for nirvana. An innovative Tee Pee from Six Moons (Wild Oasis) replaced my 1980s Chouinard Tee Pee, which are all variations of a theme used by nomadic tribes for centuries. And the innovations continue with variations of this design, partial pyramids, and other structural shapes. This segment has integrated new fabrics and materials every single year. Again innovative variations of a theme. Let’s not forget the simple tarp and poncho/tarp either, the cottage manufactures tweak this design every year. The design is simple, needs little structural components and is multi-functional. Structure adds weight so there is only so far you can take it, and with the sub 6 oz offerings, how innovative must we be or can we be?

Boots and shoes. Not much from the cottage industry because the number of sizes requires a robust inventory, unless you built custom footwear. You can get a pair of customer Limmers, but the wait list is several years. But Vibram “reeks of” innovation when it comes to boots. Not UL, but influential and they past the age test. So we buy nylon shoes that fail in a few hundred miles and we fill up our landfills with the discarded carcasses. Not a good environmental model and I am probably the guiltiest of all, wearing out one or two pairs every year. And this critical piece of gear has huge impact on our wilderness experience (e.g., “a pound on the foot is worth five on the back”). This is the only segment of gear I would like to see a truly innovative product. Light, repairable, and lasts decades like my old heavy leather boots.

I think the article confuses “stagnation and innovation” with consumerism. Or maybe it is marketing new products with an eye to creating demand, all Madison Avenue? Or is BPL at risk without new products to review every year? Why not go back and give us an update on the gear reviewed in previous years; is it still good, does it fair better than expected? Why are Ryan’s innovative pieces of gear of the past no longer so? Why does he think we need new innovations every single year? Who will support it? – probably only the minority of backpackers who subscribe to the lightweight philosophy and already own last year’s innovation. Why would stewards of the environment encourage this incessant consumption and behavior? What drives us to even think we need more innovation to do something as simple as walking and sleeping in the wilderness? Why are we so willing to fill our dumps with discarded gear? There is much talk of LNT on BPL, and applying it to everyday life, so how does the demand for innovative gear every single year to replace last year’s innovation align to this philosophy of living?

Oh, and I have participated in the heroin-drip addiction too. So this decade will see me come back full circle and use my old gear, configure it to work well as to function and weight, and hike even more than I did in the past. Backpacking gear is just a means to an end, not the end unto itself.

So to those cottage companies I have purchased quality gear from in the past, I say thank you. You have done a stellar job. There are too many of you to list, but cumulatively you have helped enhance my walking, kept me dry and safe, lightened my load, and allowed me to continue this lifelong avocation at a level I did not think could possibly continue into my 60s and probably beyond. Good job ladies and gentlemen!!

"Glen from Gossamer Gear posted - he didn't seem offended. Who else was offended from the cottage manufacturer side?"

Well if I were one of the manufacturers and I knew I made great products with innovative design, construction, stellar customer service, etc. I would be Pissed.

Also, lets turn the tables here... there have been remarks from Ryan and others about how objective they are, and how they will not buckle under to the expectations/pressure of gear makers when it comes to product reviews.

Lets flip that. Say I make a great UL widget, don't have much marketing money and rely on word of mouth and testimonials to grow my business. I know that my product is great and a fair editorial staff will review it based on it merits alone. Now if I come to BPL and challenge the owner and the reviewers, do I risk the chance of my product being ignored or even unfairly criticized? Not necessarily out of revenge, but just plain old human nature. Food for thought.

The problem with McHale is that he expresses his opinion and doesn't seem to care what others think, which I understand. I have the same problem... when I go into important corporate meetings whether internal or external, I am often told beforehand that if someone asks my opinion, I don't have one :)

Interesting thoughts Nick. I'm still trying to wrap my head around this. Here's one thougth that stood out to me from your comments and thinking back to the article.

What I read from reading the article is that if you have a set of basically decent lightweight gear there is nothing so awesome and revolutionary right now that you should feel compelled to go out and buy it. If you have a decent pack, sleeping bag, and shelter than changing these things is not going to enhance your enjoyment of the backcountry all that much.

That may or may not have been Ryan's idea but its the idea that jumped out to me from the article.

Edited by Cameron on 01/14/2012 16:34:41 MST.

Nick, I'm going to take it that you mean many of the pack makers here might feel beholden to the site and can't feel free to criticize. Let's just go with that so we can steer away from my packs. From the day this site started I told Ryan I was not interested in BPL reviewing my product. It's a basic policy of mine toward the review industry. I have always been at odds with the review industry and what is going on here is a good example of why. It always seems to lose it's way at some point and then does not seem to realize it. Somebody has to speak out at times. I have not singled the site out. Magazines were especially bad in the days before the internet and letters to the editor did not provide quite enough voice.

By the way, Nick, I do care what other people think - maybe not everyone though.

:>)

Edited by wildlife on 01/14/2012 16:58:06 MST.

Dan,

Yes the cottage industry in general, not only pack makers. And I know your feelings about reviewers. You have been in business a lot longer than most of the others and continue based on your reputation, at least from what I see.

Maybe I didn't word the last sentence correctly. If you feel strongly about something, you seem to "tell it like it is" from your vantage point, if you feel it is relevant and important. And obviously you must care about what your customers think, can't stay in business if you don't :) So, take what I said as a compliment, that was the intention.

Understood - thanks Nick. :>)

Interesting thoughts Nick. I'm still trying to wrap my head around this. Here's one thougth that stood out to me from your comments and thinking back to the article.

What I read from reading the article is that if you have a set of basically decent lightweight gear there is nothing so awesome and revolutionary right now that you should feel compelled to go out and buy it. If you have a decent pack, sleeping bag, and shelter than changing these things is not going to enhance your enjoyment of the backcountry all that much.

That may or may not have been Ryan's idea but its the idea that jumped out to me from the article

-----------------

Wow, that was a long post... didn't realize. I guess it is my response to stagnation and a lack of innovation. That is a condemnation, and I don't think it is applicable to the cottage industry or fair. As he said, there is little one can do to improve some products. But to me innovation should last a long time. If someone built a great product last year, if it lasts, it is still a great product this year. Why should they try to re-invent it every year? Great companies try to maintain product life cycle for as long as they can and gain market share, that is how you make money.

Also as you well know innovation can take many forms. There are innovations in manufacturing that could allow the same product to be produced for less. There could be innovation in customer service that comes up with new ways of ensuring that consumers are satisfied. From what I read on your business I would consider the way you send test packs out for fitting to be very innovative and likely increases consumer satisfaction. Finally, should a small business in this economy be focused on product innovation? Maybe, but being innovative in other areas could be the difference between success and failure.

At some point the innovation game becomes a sickness and is there for its own sake and not people.

I can't help but get the feeling that there is something intrinsically flawed with a way of seeing where "things" dominate how we talk to one another and form the subject of our relationships. We've set up our entire culture based on coming up with, marketing, selling, buying, and hopefully using, "things". When the outflow doesn't meet expectations, then we come down to squabbling over the scraps, as if they are the meat of what we should be basing our relationships on. In this thread alone there has been talk about the necessity to go simpler, indeed it seems to be the very essence of why so many of us have gone UL, and yet, we still keep going on and on about "things", unable to let go of them.

To truly get to that essential salt of paring away all redundancy and non-necessities, shouldn't we be looking to our attitudes, beyond the gear? Once we get the pack to the smallest common denominator, what remains is what is in our heads and hearts. Having your head crammed full of thoughts about gear is, too, a "luxury item" that gets in the way both of enjoying and fully engaging in being out there, and probably affects certain levels of safety in that you don't allow yourself to be as alert and conscious to your surroundings as you should be, especially when you are constantly using new gear that you have yet to get used to.

So much of what is happening in the world today, including the enormous economic downturn we are all facing, tells us that there is something wrong with the world, that even the natural world has been damaged and we cannot do anything about it. But the truth is, beyond our own perceptions of the culture of our own making, the world is still what it was before we came along, albeit not as healthy as it once was. If we would pare back our reliance on this money economy, on "things", that pervades every aspect of our lives... a state of being that did not exist before this kind of economy became the basis of our everyday survival... wouldn't that spare us more from the peaks and valleys of such a capricious beast as the market economy? I've always thought it was slightly insane that only we humans were going though these self-imposed freak-out sessions caused by things like economic turn-down and rise or loss of personal possessions, while right outside our windows, even during wars, trees continue to grow, birds continue to go about their usual daily lives, rivers flow, clouds sail by, mountains wait. And here we all are going bananas over slight innovations in gear! What does it take for us to get back to living lives as connected to each other and the living world around us?

Perhaps the next true "innovation" is fundamentally changing our way of seeing things and living within that new way of seeing our lives and possessions. Certainly that must the most basic motivation behind the huge worldwide reaction in the Arab Spring and Occupy Wall Street movements and such? I went through an enormous earthquake last year and then spent time volunteering in the tsunami zone, seeing, meeting, and talking with survivors who had literally lost everything, including every family having lost at least one member. I saw the complete annihilation of all the "things" that people had valued and worked so hard for. When picking through the ruins of their homes, nearly all of what I found and what the survivors chose to keep were things like photographs and diaries, little else. Whole families in the evacuation centers waited out the aftershocks with nothing but their blankets and a spare set of underwear, toiletry goods, perhaps their cell phones. What mattered was each other and their safety, the chance to continue being together. All that other stuff, miles and miles of it strewn over the landscape like so much debris, came to nothing.

Isn't it the same with our gear closets? And isn't nurturing our relationships here within this community more precious than any backpack or tent or rain jacket? Look, here we are together, sharing a love of the outdoors. Here, in this place, now, we've all found one another and interact daily. We get passionate about what we love here, not because of the gear, but because all of us have gathered here. Let's acknowledge the joy and preciousness of that, instead of finding faults and reasons to attack one another. Because if we lose hold of what brought us together and what keeps us together, this, too, can easily be swept away. A community needs work and a healthy respect for one another.



Devastation of Minami-Sanriku in Tohoku, Japan. You can see more at my blog. Seeing this and meeting the people changed my life and how I saw things.

"What does it take for us to get back to living lives as connected to each other and the living world around us?"

A situation that brings us face to face with the stark reality that in the end, as it was in the beginning, all we really have is each other. I am referring to what is known in the emerging field of "Big History" as a contingency, i.e., a catastrophic disruption of historical continuity where the future course of events is likely to be a continuation of the past/present. It could be an asteroid impacting the earth, a global environmental disaster, a pandemic, etc, that results in a more or less complete breakdown of the institutions and processes that underlie life as we have come to know it, leaving us dependent on our personal resources and capabilities. I think we would very quickly come to realize that drawing close to one another and working together provides the only real hope of survival. Just as it was in the beginning. I would like to think we could evolve in that direction without such a stimulus, but I am not hopeful.

Edited for spelling.

Edited by ouzel on 01/14/2012 17:29:46 MST.

"You make it sound like these opinions will drive people's buying habits. They shouldn't. We can all think for ourselves here."

If that were the case, there would be neither advertising nor Op Ed pieces in the media. Unfortunately. :=(

Nick,

I give up on trying to wrap my head around this innovation/stagnation angst and agony; the fit is real uncomfortable, and it makes my head hurt.

As for Ryan's article, I went back and read it over again just to try and identify exactly what caused the eruption.

Seems (as it appears to me) that Ryan has his notions about what the experience of backpacking (and life even) means to him (perhaps in terms of function, durability, simplicity, and cost), and he let loose with his assessment of how the state of "gear" fits into satisfying his paradigm for the good life.

It's like he was standing in one room engaging in scream therapy, and a lot of folks in another room took his screaming as a personal affront, maybe because he was using terms, like innovation and stagnation, that can be open to different interpretions subject to personal experience.

If that's the case, it's sure too bad there's been so much heat when just a bit of clarity might eliminate a lot of confusion and angst born of blindness.

It would be interesting to hear Ryan's responses/reactions to themes that have been raised here over and over.

So thanks, Nick, for providing your definition of innovation, and illustrating it in concrete terms with examples from the past.

And I like your plan for the coming year: "So this decade will see me come back full circle and use my old gear, configure it to work well as to function and weight, and hike even more than I did in the past. Backpacking gear is just a means to an end, not the end unto itself."

I knew there was a good reason why I have hung onto my SVEA and Sigg Tourister, my Kelty frame pack, and my North Face Mountain tent --

It's should be all about where you are and what you are doing:




and not at all that you are doing with that Kelty pack and NF Mountain tent:

Edited by JRScruggs on 01/14/2012 18:05:10 MST.

Hey Richard, that must be Hannegan Pass? It's been a while since I've been there too!

I think I'm going to have to start making tents to bring back those tunnel entrances. I've tried to get a couple companies to make them to no avail.

Have machine - will sew.

In keeping with the current theme of the thread, I think quite a bit about all of the other animals and how hard they have to work just to survive - and they don't get to accumulate anything really. Maybe I can relate because I work pretty hard. It's easy to understand how crows can like human trinkets. And look at the current CDT thread and how people get upset when they lose their thouroughfare - now we know how the other animals feel!

"Well if I were one of the manufacturers and I knew I made great products with innovative design, construction, stellar customer service, etc. I would be Pissed."

Sure. But the comment was that Ryan pitted cottage makers against cottage makers for making a broad 'paint stroke' suggestion.

We have heard from two (one more than the other). If there are such angry cottage makers, apart from Mchale, lets hear from them.

Ah, you know why you won't? Because they likely didn't take Ryan's comment too seriously, ignored it, or wrote it off to mindless dribble. Or they considered it simply opinion, to which we are all entitled too, despite those that won't acknowledge this fact.

David, there have been enough opinions here on my side of the fence from members that show there is something going on that is worth considering. I explained why manufacturers might not want to come out - it's all part of the clash and conflict inherent in the site. Maybe Ryan actually thought nobody would fight back because we need him.......or rather, they might need him? Who knows. I'm not the only one though that has expressed that his attitude is unwarranted.

Now Ryan appears to be asking around whether people are having trouble with Cuben Tie-outs ripping out. Of course it can be an issue. If he thinks it's an issue, why doesn't he make an article showing the best methods being used by the best tarp makers - set some examples - educate people without tearing others down. Instead he's snarking around looking for dirt? Does he want to drag some peon company through the mud? What gives? This whole attitude of 'police'ing companies rather than educating consumers is at the core of my distaste for the review industry. Ryan actually wants people to tell him in public that this or that tent fell apart? He is actually soliciting that;

"I'm wondering if any of you have any field experience that has resulted in stitching failure on tie-outs of Cuben tarps/shelters resulting from the stitching cutting the Cuben and ripping out in response to wind stress?"

Like he doesn't know? Isn't the way to handle that for the consumer to deal with the company that made the tent and for the world to move on?

Edited by wildlife on 01/14/2012 19:04:59 MST.

"If he thinks it's an issue, why doesn't he make an article showing the best methods being used by the best tarp makers - set some examples - educate people without tearing others down."

I, for one, hope that is what will come out of it. The early articles @ BPL were like that and I felt they 'pulled no punches.' This is good for the consumer.

Admittedly, I do not know what his motives are. I would like to think they are honorable.....

I also want to make it clear that I APPRECIATE Dan's commentary because he did voice his opinion on what he felt was a negative approach by Ryan. There is no defence required in this case as I am simply not attacking Dan's comments. Instead, I am trying to 'flesh out' further discussion.

My point was that maybe we put too much stock into what Ryan said. In the early days of BPL, Ryan was on these forums quite consistently. Engaging in discussions that assisted many of us by providing perspective on his experience. His involvement over the past two years has been quite minimal and we have all done just fine by ourselves. I ain't no lemming.