I'm soliciting feedback as part of some research that I'm working on an article for BPL about solo tents.

So, a few questions for solo tent users, in the following context:

Most of you who have a lot of experience with this ultralight thing, based on what I've read in the forums here and from talking to many of you "generally" agree that:

- You don't really select a solo tent for severe weather protection, you don't really select a solo tent for weight savings, you don't really select a solo tent for interior living space, you don't really select a solo tent for privacy, and you don't really select a solo tent for views.

So, is it really all about the bugs?

Or is there something else? Is there some psychology that drives you? Is it a feeling of security?

How do you feel about owning, carrying, and using a solo tent when you might know that *something else" might give you *something more* for less weight and cost?

Or, perhaps, is it just that there are so many "neat" solo cottage tents available out there that are a lot lighter than all the "neat" mass-produced solo tents? Are manufacturers selling you something that isn't really there?

Thanks for participating, I'm looking forward to a lively discussion.

DISCLAIMER: I own and use solo tents, along with other shelters...I'll weigh in on this too.

This may not be an exact response to your question but I can tell you the reason I did not purchase a solo tent is because of the lack of versatility. With a tent you only have one option regardless of conditions. I thought about purchasing a BA Fly Creek UL1 for a long time, but why purchase that when I can get a modular system like a mid with a removable inner for about the same price and less weight. Although, I would have to say the one thing that really drew me to the solo tents initially was the simplicity. Lay it out on the ground, pole here pole there, couple stake, done. All the parts are there, and all the protection, but in the end versatility was more important to me than ease of setup.

Some comparisons can be tough since tent types are different from tarps, but not so with the Hexamid. I got a netted Hexamid because (1) it prevented bugs, and (2) it made sure everything I unpacked was repacked in the morning.

I think for me, especially in unfamiliar places, there is quite a bit of comfort in having a fully enclosed shelter. For example, I spent my last summer backpacking in the PNW and always brought along my freestanding solo tent (other than a few trips with the girlfriend). Unfamiliarity with the weather, locations in which I was camping, and other conditions I might face had me erring on the side of caution.

On the flip side, I'm happy using a pyramid tarp in familiar places (Colorado or Utah). The field mice sure seem to love it, too.

I don’t qualify as an ultra-light backpacker, but I am certainly trying to lighten my load significantly.

My reasons for using a solo tent are numerous. Not necessarily in order are:
1. Bug protection. I just don’t want bugs crawling on me.
2. Dirt protection. I use a quilt now and sleep kind of sprawled out. I want the walls to keep me from sticking my hand in the dirt, or from kicking dirt into my sleeping area.
3. Breeze protection. I absolutely HATE ANY breeze blowing on me when I sleep. My wife turns on the ceiling fan on at home during the summer and I hate it. I don’t sleep as well and will wake up several times each evening.
4. Ease of setup. Many of the tents setup quick and easy. That is a primary consideration for me when choosing a tent.
5. Privacy. Not really anything that is necessary, but I just want me and my stuff out of site when I sleep. And since I sleep sans clothes, so does everyone else!
6. Ease of rain protection. It’s pretty easy to setup a good tent to keep your stuff dry. Don’t need to know much to get it right.

Those are my reasons. Considering how light and simple to setup some of the light tents are it just seems way worth it. Now, I might change my mind if I did a trip with high mileage days and few bugs, but otherwise...

** Just for clarification. I consider it a tent if it is fully enclosed (therefore must have a floor). Part of the enclosure can be mesh. That is what I consider a tent. The tent I use must also close up so that those outside the tent cannot see in. That is my personal requirement, not part of the definition of a tent.

Edited by Hitech on 12/21/2011 12:44:09 MST.

I started with an all-in-one solo tent, because one backpacks with a tent, you know. Tradition! (Cue music from "Fiddler on the Roof")

At this point the closest thing to a solo tent I have is an MLD Duomid - a very shaped tarp. Even with a bivy or inner bug net tent, it's still lighter than my original all-in-one tent. It also has more room, allows for better views, and is plenty weather proof. Better all the way around!

I will preface this post by saying that I *was* a tent user but have transitioned through that to tarps. Hopefully my post is still of some value to the research you're conducting.

For me, a combination of psychological and practical reasons existed. My transition to Lightweight/UL went something like this:

1. Began with a standard two person backpacking tent.
2. Discovered the UL world and started researching all of the new (at least to me) shelters including tarps and tarptent-style shelters.
3. The idea of a simple cat-tarp really appealed to me for aesthetics, weight, and simplicity, but I hit a wall when it got down to actually buying one. Issues were:

a. Bugs. Wisconsin has a lot of bugs everywhere for most of the warmer months.
b. I was new to sleeping out, so all the anxieties from the noises of the night were somehow eased by complete tent walls.
c. I didn't understand the intricacies and skills of using a tarp, bivy, groundsheet for different conditions.

4. I settled on a Henry Shires Tarptent because it allowed me to be in a shelter that resembled a tarp, but was comforting like a tent, and it kept out the bugs. For some reason, many of the cottage manufacturers have shelters that, to me, are just "neater" compared to many of the mainstream companies. They're also much lighter and often less expensive.

5. I continued refining my gear and became more comfortable with less. My next shelter move was to a MLD Trailstar. It can be pitched in ways that resemble a sealed up tent, but can also be very open. Plus it is floorless.

6. I finally tried tarping when I won a HMG Echo I shelter system. It was my first tarp and my first piece of cuben gear, so I had some more to learn. When going solo, I now use a tarp. When out with my wife, we use either the Trailstar or the TT DR.

After using a broader spectrum of shelters, it all comes down to the experience an individual wants to have with a comfort level they are OK with. Sure, there are some manufacturers that overbuild and over-market their tents, but I think that when you consider the vast array of backpacking personalities and styles, the myriad shelters on the market all have a legitimate buyer. Personally, I have no use for anything over two pounds anymore which usually rules out large manufacturers and most tents, but others will find a good fit with a solo tent for their needs and expectations.

If I was backpacking with a group of friends, I'll entertain the thought of cowboy camping if the bugs are not too bad. But when I backpack alone, I feel more secure in a tent (like the contrail I use now). By secure, I mean I have a dry safe place to spread out any stuff I need, free from the hassel of biting or annoying insects, where I can sleep without worry of being bit and where my stuff won't be chewed on by critters.

So it's part physical security (I know bugs can't get to me) and part psychological security (the walls help me feel safe and protected). For me, its hard to relax and get to sleep without a tent. Even if the "walls" are primarily netting. Weird, but that's how my mind processes it.

I'm in the same boat as Larry. Bug/dirt/breeze/rain protection, ease of setup, privacy. Current tent is a Moment, but I'll be switching to a cuben tarp + net tent this coming season. Willing to pay for less protection/ease of setup for the weight loss, and I've never tarped it before.

I'm also a very lazy hiker, and I don't mind setting up a tent, but for some reason I find rolling up my Moment in the morning an annoyance. With the tarp, I'd be stuffing it. Same applies to blowing up a sleeping pad. I don't mind using an Instaflator instead.

Edited by TRAUMAhead on 12/20/2011 19:15:27 MST.

Most of the time I use my Tarptent Moment. Simple and very quick to put up, full bug and weather protection, a bathtub floor to keep me and my gear dry in a monsoon, and it is lighter than a regular tent. I am trying shaped tarps and bug netting but overall still prefer the Tarptent.

Nothing wrong with Tarps, bugnets, and bivies. I just cannot justify spending $$$ on uberlight cuben models that I would not use as much thus leaving me with heavier silnylon options that when combined weigh the same as the full Tarptent.

There are some reasons I also have a 3lb solo double wall tent though:

1. Loaner for friends on short trips
2. Mild winter conditions (stronger structure with beefy poles and double wall)
3. High humidity environments that produce heavy condensation
4. General Camping not associated with backpacking

Given this, some of the new double wall tarptent style shelters weighing less than 2lbs that use trekking poles (Tarptent Notch) sure look fascinating and offer flexibility similar to shaped tarps and bug inner-nets with a bathtub floor.

Edited by radio_guy on 12/20/2011 19:28:17 MST.

For me, it's definitely all about the bugs. And since I'm going to sleep in something that keeps the bugs at bay, I might as well have a bit of room to boot. I have a tarp and bug netting, but it doesn't save enough weight over my Lightheart Solo to make me use it much, plus the LH Solo is just easier to get into and out of.

I will say that the only time I ever cowboy camped I loved. That was the Wyoming trip. Cold enough so that no bugs were around at all. I used a bivy, but didn't even close the top, just laid inside the bivy with my head completely outside. I'll do it again when I can get out when the bugs aren't around and it's not too cold and windy since I enjoyed it immensely. But for where I normally backpack, I'll use the tent far more than the tarp.

Hi Ryan,

Hah! The tents I have purchased, modified and made from scratch have all had those considerations you mention as chief criteria. Since I don't seem to fit into the profile from your feedback, this may not be helpful, but there you have it.

In addition to those criteria you mention, I am also big on self-supporting tents, that do not depend on stakes to keep them up, even though stakes may be used to anchor the tent and support a vestibule or two. T'wer it not for the advent of carbon poles, MYOG ones anyway, this would not be so, as the weight penalty would be too high. Why self-supporting? Because I don't want to carry stakes sufficient and heavy enough to support the whole shelter, and have found that a shelter supported by and tensioned over arced poles is much less likely to end up in my face or drenching my gear.

Also, the tent must be pitchable and strikable without flooding the interior in heavy rains, should afford entry and exit in heavy rains that keep the interior as dry as possible, should have an open awning to cook under in heavy rain, and the awning should be able to be 'locked down' from inside the tent when conditions become severe.

Unlike some of the threads and posters on this site, heavy snowstorms are not a chief criterion. My feeling is that the weight penalty for a tent fully suitable for heavy snowstorms and gales, such as the weather in some of the plains states right now, is too high for a tent used primarily in milder seasons.

Protection against bugs, crawlies, slitherers and creepers, absolutely!

I have always hiked solo and started with a single person tube tent (Walrus)that was 3lbs 4oz. I took that tent on long sections of the PCT and half the AT and many other trips over a decade. Shelter is just a safety and comfort thing and that was a light weight shelter for it's day.

Now that I'm older and taking shorter trips (comes with family and a job) I carry a single person Tarp Tent Sublite (approx 23oz complete) when I know the weather will be good, and a 2-person Sierra Designs tent (3lbs 5oz. complete) when I suspect the weather will be bad.

I don't put any more thought into it other than comfort, safety and what tool I think will serve best for the weather I'm likely to face. I've slept outside under tarps, cowboy and in a couple different tents and like having a nylon cocoon.

Personal preference.

Perfect timing Ryan. I just bought my first double wall solo tent in 12 years. I stopped using them then because I made a switch to hammocks, and tarps.

I moved. Backpacking has changed in a lot of ways since then. I chose a Hilleberg Unna. And used it for the first time last weekend.

I did choose it for it's severe weather capability. I wanted something for high winds along the Lost Coast. I too wanted a refuge from the elements including drafts. Rains a lot here so being able to pitch as a unit was a big plus.

I did choose a tent for privacy as I am doing more trips with groups these days.

I did choose the Unna for interior space. Nice and long. I'm 6'3" I have a Doumid that I am very happy with. It would be too short inside with the inner net. The Unna is also wider 2 feet above ground than the mid and feels just as spacious inside. Especially with the inner removed.

I also choose a free standing design as I no longer use trekking poles. Stakes can be difficult to use at times, nice to not need them always. Plus it is super easy to put up.

All said and done, I really enjoy having a warm, dry, clean home that I take with me and pitch/strike up easily

I have much less expensive shelter solutions to choose from. Most I made myself. And they work fine within their limits. But with the modularity of the Unna it really could replace all of them. It won't. Different tools for different tasks.

I must admit I used, overused, and abused my old solo tent. About 35 years ago, well before the days of silicone nylon, I found a 100% nylon pup tent that said 2 people. I think by todays standards it would be a 1+. It weighed about 2-1/2#. I used it for about 10 years. I really loved it. A really terrible price we could barely justify, $29. 3 or 4 years later we got another somewhat cheaper built model, though no less expensive. After 3 nights of rain on the Ausable, on a flyfishing trip, we discovered a couple leaks. We added a nylon tarp to both. Later, after the color had washed out of the orange nylon, and turning it to a strange pale yellow, I loaned it to somone and never got it back.

Why did I choose it? Many reasons.
1) It provided good weather protection, never perfect.
2) It was big enough to cram 2 people in, if you really liked your partner.
3) It was small enough to bring two, in place of one 10# beast.
4) It had a FLOOR, a novel concept for a backpacker that had never seen one in a back woods tent.
5) It looked strange on a state campsite, a lonley tiny pup tent?? Sears 10 and 14 man tents surrounded me, reminding me of my place in the scheme of things. But, it did provide privacy. With a 3 pound tarp, a good campsite with all the basics.
6) 6 stakes to set up. Simplicity. I could walk in, have it out and set up, before my partners would even finish getting poles together for their fancy new free standing tents.
7) For ten years, it was the lightest thing for shelter I could find. (BW, ie Before Web.)
8) It was bug proof. On spring fishing trips, ice-out, it worked excelently to repel the swarms of black flies that often surrounded me. A NICE safe zone.
9) I used it as an ice fishing shelter, with a full plastic covering, cept over the vent. My brother and I would sit and play cards for hours, it seemed. The tent was just nice to be in. 'Specially after I got the old SVEA...it was even warm at -10F.
10) It was really durable. 10 years out of a tent was good service.
11) The wife and I used that old solo tent together a lot. Our yearly week (well, 9 days) long trips in fall became an anual event...we still practice that.
12) I was just comfortable using it. Crawling in, sitting up to tie off the storm flap (if needed) & zipping up the screens, laying down and maneuvering into the bag was just easy and comfortable. Only a side entry is as easy. On a couple occasions I had a bear (probably a 'coon) snuffling around outside the tent. That was OK...I was in the tent. Mostly, I don't even wake up anymore because of critters... Using a tarp, once the kids had grown and moved out, was in many ways, almost the same as using that old solo tent. I believe it measured about 38" wide(I think, it didn't *quite* fit two old military winter pads, I needed to cut them down) by about 7'3 long and 40" or 42" high. About 8" around and 15" long, including a 7'x7' tarp, good for a carry package.

When it came time to replace it all I could find were blue, with heavy, woven poly floors. I could never find the like, though I found a picture of one in an old magazine around 1976 or so. I sorta wish I could copy that tent design in silnylon, or cuben, today.

So yes, I was just getting to it, it was not about any of the things you mention, alone. Rather it was about ALL of the things you mention, and more.

Edited by jamesdmarco on 12/20/2011 20:14:49 MST.

"- You don't really select a solo tent for severe weather protection, you don't really select a solo tent for weight savings, you don't really select a solo tent for interior living space, you don't really select a solo tent for privacy, and you don't really select a solo tent for views."


My solo tent for warm weather currently is gossamer gears "the one"

- not selected for views
- not selected for privacy
- not selected for extreme weather ability, just reasonable protection
- not selected for interior space, but more than a bivy

-yes, selected for bug protection
-yes, selected for weight savings (18oz)
-yes, selected for bathtub floor
-yes, selected for minimal stretch and sag

No problem cowboy camping in cool clear weather, not afraid of creepy crawlies or critters, just really want a way to get away from mosquitos etc when necessary. Havent tarped, but Id have no problem doing that in cool clear bugfree weather. Less enthusiastic about confining myself to a bivy for rain protection or bug protection though.

Edited by livingontheroad on 12/20/2011 20:15:44 MST.

Hello,

I believe that many hikers just feel that a tent is the way it is suppose to be. Especially those who have not yet found the light that is lightweight backpacking. For many people who are weekenders only it is a matter of convince and comfort - for those few nights a year that they are out in the woods they want a bit of each of those.

Over the last few years my shelter process has gone this way:

TarpTent Moment (sold after my first trip out with it)

TarpTent Rainbow (still own it, most headroom of any solo fully enclosed tent I have found for its weight)

HMG Echo I (loved it - the most bombproof cuben fiber shelter on the market but sold it after reaching the SUL world)

MLD Superlight Bivy (cf/momentum - sold it after it not meeting my likes)

ZPacks Hexamid Solo Tarp & HexaNet Solo Bug Shelter (sold it after a few trips, it was to tight for my 6'1)

HMG Echo II Tarp (sold it after I moved into the XUL world)

ZPacks 8x10 0.51 CF Tarp (still have it)

ZPacks 9x6 0.34 CF Tarp (still have it)


For myself I have come to enjoy sleeping without a fully enclosed setup. Two exceptions to this are: (1) in the deserts regions where I know there are snakes and scorpions, which I admittedly have a psychology issue with. (2) In the high Sierras where the bugs-that-shall-not-be-named rule the kingdom. For me the weight of a MLD Bug Bivy is the easiest solution to these two issues - granted one of them is purely a psychology issue.

On the PCT this year I left planning to use the tarp and bivy I used on the AT. I switched to a Lightheart Solo at kickoff mainly to increase room, privacy, and ease/quickness/consistency of setup. The side effect of full rain and wind coverage was greatly appreciated as well, but a secondary concern. I enjoy the feeling of being enclosed when I sleep, but the it isn't much different than in the SMD Meteor bivy. Changing clothes with privacy and away from the bugs is a big plus, which is impossible in a bivy.

I prefer a more modular system than the Solo for rainy setup, wet packing, the option of being lighter, and speed of drying. With that in mind I went to a MYOG Duomid to maintain the roominess, privacy, quick setup, and full coverage I loved in the Solo. Now I have the option to make a bivy, solo net tent, or duo net tent for bugs, or use nothing at all.

To me, the worth of the cottage industry shelters lies in the extra performance you gain with a rather modest increase in weight over a reasonably roomy tarp and bivy, which is what I assume you are insinuating with 'something *more* at less weight'. With construction materials being consistent, fully enclosed tarp tents that omit tent poles will weigh a scant few ounces more than a normal sized tarp and normal bivy. For that small penalty one gains all of the above mentioned benefits plus some I didn't mention while sacrificing ventilation and that 'close to nature' feeling.

To put it shortly, tarp tents offer the best value of performance per ounce to a lot of people.

My case is a little different in that I always have a 75-lb. dog with me, so I need a bug-free space for him as well as for me. We need a little more space than is found in a solo tent--more like a 1.5 person tent. Another thing I've found is that my dog regards the tent as HIS (note the possessive pronoun!) crate, so he walks in, curls up on his pad and goes right to sleep. That is one of the reasons I prefer a tent to a tarp--to keep my dog calm at night. For myself, outside of bug season, I actually would prefer a tarp--airier and more views. The tarp does involve a lot more fussing than a tent, though.

The second reason I use a tent rather than a tarp: I did a lot of research and found that the combination of a tarp (GG SpinnTwinn), ground sheet and bug net big enough for both the dog and me, plus the extra stakes needed for the tarp, weighs more than my Gossamer Gear Squall Classic. With a Cuben tarp, the total weight would be about the same as the Squall Classic. If I had to add a bivy, the tarp combo would be heavier yet. I'd still need the ground sheet to keep us and our gear out of the mud in wet weather. I'd still need a bug net because I like to be able to sit up and read. I realize that these numbers would change a bit if the dog weren't involved, but if the dog weren't involved I could have a smaller tent, too.

In the interests of lighter weight, and on the recommendation of Eric of "Balls and Sunshine" fame, I recently bought a ZPacks Hexamid Twin plus cuben bathtub floor ground sheet. I set it up in my living room, and the dog and I spent most of a night in it. I think it's going to work out just fine for me, the dog and (with some squeezing) one grandchild. It won't work for two plus dog after the grandson (almost 12) starts his teenage growth spurt, but by then he will be able to carry more weight, so a heavier shelter won't be an issue. This December having been (so far, and forecast for the rest of the month) an all-time record dry December in the Pacific Northwest, I obviously have not had a chance to test the Hex Twin in bad weather. It has also been too cold (thanks to an almost perpetual inversion layer) for good seam sealing. (I will probably do that indoors with windows open and an exhaust fan in the window, or else take it up in the mountains above the fog layer, where it's a lot warmer.) The Hex Twin (with cuben ground sheet) is 10 oz. lighter than the Squall Classic, about the same amount of floor space but definitely more head room. However, I'm hanging on to my beloved Squall Classic until I've had a season in the Hex Twin, and will decide this time next year which one I want to sell.

Bugs: Early spring: ticks. The 3-4 weeks after snow melt: mosquitoes. After that, until first heavy frost: biting flies. That leaves basically October as the only time I could leave the bug net home (I won't camp overnight when it's dark more than 12 hours--can't stand being cooped up in the tent that long).

If you are evaluating shelters in your article, I hope you'll include the new version of Six Moon Design's Lunar Solo, which, from Ron Moak's description, appears to have overcome the objections I had to it, particularly the too-low ceiling height at head and foot.

Edited by hikinggranny on 12/22/2011 12:19:44 MST.

It is all about the Bugs. I can not stand those dang spiders running across my face in the middle of the night.
Cooler temp and low bug pressure, I love my bivy.

Ryan wrote: "You don't really select a solo tent for severe weather protection, you don't really select a solo tent for weight savings, you don't really select a solo tent for interior living space, you don't really select a solo tent for privacy, and you don't really select a solo tent for views."

I think you're starting off with a false premise here. You might not choose a tent (over a tarp+bivy, say) for any *one* of those reasons, but you might well do so for a combination of some or all of those reasons.

Not so long ago, I made a spreadsheet with a whole bunch of solo shelter options. I rated each of them by a range of criteria: headroom, bug-proof, views (dry and in heavy rain), available space/volume, price, weight, and so on. I then weighted each of the criteria by how important they were to me. For example, being bug-proof was very important *to me* because of spiders, leeches, and ticks where I walk. At the end of this exercise I had a (weighted) score for each shelter, according to my criteria.

The top three shelters were a particular shaped tarp with inner net, and two solo tents; and I consider the tarp+inner to be a tent in all but name. I didn't rig the outcome at all, and I was surprised by it. I *expected* a tarp+bivy to come out on top, but when it came down to it, the things I really wanted or needed in a shelter pointed me in another direction. It took some serious tweaking of the weights, in a way that really did not reflect my needs, to get a tarp+bivy combo to come out on top.

Just my 2c.

I'm relatively new to lightweight backpacking - definitely not ultralight yet - but between summer 2010 and summer 2011 I successfully lightened my base weight by 15 lbs for multiday trips up to a week. One of the bigger savings was switching from a Big Agnes Copper Spur UL3 (my first so-called UL purchase) for me and my 70lb dog to the Copper Spur UL1 solo model.

I looked at numerous models from the mainstream manufacturers, and this fit my needs best. It's big enough not to feel like a coffin, be able to sit up, have my dog in the vestibule, keep us sheltered from the elements and me protected from the bugs, but keep the weight around 3 lb.

Could I have gone lighter? Sure, but this was a practical compromise for me. Before the Copper Spur UL3 I spent the previous 20 years using a 5.5 lb 2 man TNF tent, a 9 lb 3 man Marmot tent, and an 11 lb 2 man 4 season tent from Phoenix Mountaineering. To me this was major progress. I went from a one-size fits many, but not all, situations (buy larger just in case), to recognizing that I would do better with having a variety of equipment for different types of trip. I replaced the Copper Spur UL3 with the larger UL4 for family trips in the summer, and I added two Hillebergs for winter/shoulder season trips where I expect adverse weather - a Soulo for me, and a Nallo 2 for me and my 4 year old son. Both are lighter than the tents I owned before I started down the lightweight backpacking path. They are small enough to warm up in cold conditions, but big enough not to go stir crazy with the long nights.

Tarps and bivy bags have no interest for me, other than as potential emergency shelters.

I'll jump in . this is fun



Selected my Copper Spur UL 1 because :

1) Freestanding ( no diatribes on this please . )

2) EASY ! / fast set up

3) Lots of room for a single; length alone at 90 inches is big. Very comphy space for a single !

4) Great star show viewing . yet fast easy rain fly set up

5) BIG vestibule space ( love the secondary vest access )

6) At 3 pounds . with stakes, fly, tent, everything.. worth every ounce

7) Packs down nice

It's all about the flying/biting bugs. Don't mind the crawlers but a mosquito in my ear all night makes me crazy!

Also, while I'd prefer to tarp whenever it's not "buggy" either from geography or season, I much prefer 1 high quality shelter, rather than 3 for different situations.

Frankly, I just don't get to backpack that much (or enough, if you want the truth)

peter's not really all that UL, but yeah ..

bugs.
warmer in the morning (a LOT). = earlier starts.
great in storms and blasting cold winds.
3 pounds .. no bfd.
pack stays under cover and dry, as well as the boots stay inside (warmer too )
my tent has fine views.
and it sets up in hella blasting winds nicely (sort of..)
once it is setup .. my maps don't blow away either.
you can rest nekked in a tent.
i work hard. i can afford any tent.
i am old. i cannot afford a lost year over a busted trip from a tarp and bugs.
holy smokes.. even Roger C. uses a tent.

how do i feel about it ?
security wise.
- if i can get in my tent, off the ice, out of the wind, islam/politics aside .. all is good with the world.

-i know you can sit out a rainstorm under an alpakca raft. i KNOW this trick. heck, if you are tired enough, you can sleep while doing it !
it's better inside a tent though...

cottage mfgrs/

Henry Shires is about 80 minutes from my house.
he makes a comparable tent to mine, and it is hardly "a lot lighter". it's perhaps 3 p-bars lighter.
i don't trust Henry's tent for 3 p-bars. (i've never met him. he's prob a great guy)
and Herny's tent requires a more elaborate stake-out system. that loses points in my book.

are mfgrs selling the sizzle and not the steak ?
yes. a great many of them.
arkterex (sp.. whatever..), mountain hardware, and the commies at patagonia come to mind.

when i camp with my lady i carry TWO of these damm things ! (plus 2 quarts of wine)
i really does not matter if my pack is 25, or 65 pounds. she's had CANCER, so whatever much i cram in the mchale, i can still keep up. (she carries her camera and nothing else)

all that, and ... yes, it would be nice if the tent weighed less.

cheers,
v.

In theory I would like to be able to go hiking with nothing but an 9x7 flat tarp. But, the reality is that mosquitoes make it nearly impossible to sleep with out protection. Plus the Lyme disease epidemic has me concerned.
So I always need a bug net or bivy with the tarp. but, like many have said here the arrival of many double walled/hybrid double walled tents in the 1.5-2 lbs range has me rethinking the tarp thing.
Tarps have a lot of advantages but I went to tarps in the beginning primarily because of price and weight more than anything else. It used to be the case that tarps/bivy were significantly lighter than solo double walled tents- thats not the case anymore.
I tried a few different tents/shelters this summer and still haven't settled on one but I like my SMD Trekker and MLD Doumid.
they have some nice improvements over my old tarp/bivy setup.
First,I tend to like to stretch out a little and toss and turn at night. A larger bug free space is a lot more comfortable for me than a bivy.
Second, These tents have a nice side entry that makes entry a lot easier.
third, they can be pitched down so that I have 360 protection from wind and rain, but the doors can be opened up on nice days for views and breezes. I especially like the openness of the Trekker.
So, for so little weight I feel I have A pretty versatile pretty comfortable shelter from bugs and bad weather. Enough at least for the great majority of my hiking.
I will finish that cuban tarp someday because I know I will get the urge to go super simple every once in a while but it would be nice to learn to live with one of the perfectly usable nice shelters I have and stop searching for that perfect one.

I always look for weather protection first. Second is bug protection, if needed. It doesn't matter to me if that is with a tent or tarp, it's whatever the lightest option is that will do the job.
I don't think you can generalise, as folk have different needs according to terrain and climate.

Dr. Jordan --

Appreciate the thread, and looking forward to your input and article.

Here's my contribution:

"So, is it really all about the bugs?"

Not always -- only if there's likely to be bugs (and/or reptiles).

"Or is there something else? Is there some psychology that drives you? Is it a feeling of security?"

Depends -- a "real" shelter is nice if there's likely to be howling winds, driving rain, and/or really cold temps.

"How do you feel about owning, carrying, and using a solo tent when you might know that *something else" might give you *something more* for less weight and cost?"

This might be a trick question, but obviously a clue.

Hopefully it's a tickler for a new stealth technology solo tent that's invisible to bears, scent-blocking, self-pitching, weighs two-tenths of a grams, and fits on the head of a pin.

"Or, perhaps, is it just that there are so many "neat" solo cottage tents available out there that are a lot lighter than all the "neat" mass-produced solo tents?"

Have to admit, neat is nice, but no big deal.

"Are manufacturers selling you something that isn't really there?"

That last question is tough, and it sounds like a reiteration of the "tickler clue" of an SST (stealth solo tent) -- as in it's there, but it isn't.

In sum, I agree with Mike above -- selection of a solo tent is probably a matter of suiting the shelter to the action.

And that might be why folks sometimes buy so (too) many, and why a Stealth Solo Tent would sure help solve both those problems.

Assuming different solo tents can meet every concern that might arise as you've identified them, the lightest one trumps -- and determines my selection.

Thanks again.

Edited by JRScruggs on 12/21/2011 01:53:02 MST.

Ummm... What is your definition of "tent"?

Does a "tent" have to be freestanding? If so, would a TT Rainbow be considered a tent?
Or does it just have to have rain and bug protection? In that case, wouldn't any tarp+innernet combo be considered a tent? Is a mid + inner considered a tent? Are tarptents considered tents?


Answering the above would help answer my next question. What do you mean "*something else* might give you *something more* for less weight and cost?"

What system offers "more"(i.e. bug/rain/snow protection) for less weight(this is where the 'tent' definition is needed. For instance, if a zpacks hexamid plus inner is considered a tent, what other system would be lighter AND offer equal or more bug and rain protection?)

@Nick: if a zpacks hexamid plus inner is considered a tent, what other system would be lighter AND offer equal or more bug and rain protection?

"Granted the ZPacks Hexamid Solo Tarp + ZPacks Hexanet is a freakishly amazing 286 grams"

You can say that again about freakishly amazing. I don't know how many hours I've spent looking for a lighter bug free shelter without resorting to a bivy and/or a tiny tarp.

"You don't really select a solo tent for severe weather protection".

Wrong.

This is the primary consideration.

@John: I wasn't implying that the Zpacks setup was the lightest thing out there. It's the lightest thing I've come across, but was genuinely curious what other options were out there that were lighter. That MLD bivy looks awesome. That's the kind of thing I was looking for. Thanks! Even then. Would this be considered a tent? If so, my question remains... What is lighter or offers more? Where is the tent and tarp/bivy line drawn? What defines each?

"and Herny's tent requires a more elaborate stake-out system. that loses points in my book."
I think that this point from Peter Vacco well illustrate that how we perceive a product is as important as how the product actually is or performs.
In this case I think Peter is comparing the Akto and the Scarp.
Having set up the two, I personally don't think that the Scarp has a more elaborate set up, in fact to me it is easier and faster to get it taut than the Akto .
Not that I am trying to convince Peter to switch (...) just making the point that some one's perception is not always somebody else reality.
BTW, for most of the year the Scarp is too much for me, that is , I am very comfortable with something much lighter, however still more tent like than tarp like because I don't like bivvies and usually we have a lot of bugs about.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XWE0gx7rSXU&list=UU0PuLUKvG7Fxxex5BMVK4vw&index=36&feature=plcp
Franco
franco@tarptent.com

Ryan wrote "You don't really select a solo tent for severe weather protection, you don't really select a solo tent for weight savings, you don't really select a solo tent for interior living space, you don't really select a solo tent for privacy, and you don't really select a solo tent for views."

Wow, I don't know what kind of paradise you guys hike in, but those are all reasons that I DO select a solo tent.

* Severe weather protection - yes, my solo tent offers protection from srong wind and rain.
* Weight saving - my solo tent is 1020g, tarp + poles + bug net/bivy + warmer sleeping bag = ???
* Interior living space - yes, my solo tent has lots of interior space plus a bathtub groundsheet so little things do not get lost.
* Privacy - yes, silnylon is opaque
* Views - yes, if I tie the door open I get a good view.

Plus
* Bug protection. Scottish midgies are vicious in summer.

The solo tent I use is a MYOG effort, but it is not too dissimilar to a TT Moment.

Edited to add poles for tarp

Edited by Scunnered on 12/22/2011 01:45:37 MST.

I think some of this could be a West vs East thing. In my experience in the Western US (not much) there are a lot less bugs, especially nasty creepy crawlies. In the Southeast especially there are huge palmetto bugs (roaches), centipedes, tons of spiders, small ants, big ants, fire ants, regular roaches, snakes (although not too worried about that), potential for mosquitos about 10 months a year, knats, and most importantly ticks. I think bug protection is more of a concern down here than out West, maybe that is just my perception.

I would love to use a tarp but I refuse to use a tiny bug bivy, I get claustrophobic when my movement is restricted. To me that is just a form fitting inner net tent and I'm not going to crawl into that tiny thing with netting a couple inches off my face and be comfortable. From my math when you add in a tarp and bivy (possibly a ground cloth and/or bug netting) you are not far off in weight or functionally the design of a lot of the lightweight full tent shelters. I mean what is a Contrail or a Moment? It's a shaped tarp, a bathtub ground cloth connected by some bug netting. The new TT designs (Notch and SS1 and SS2) are just a tarp with inner net tent.

Also with a tarp and bivy when you get in the tent arent I going to be bit on the hands, feet, face until you get into your bivy? So how am I going to read or relax before bed?

The other advantage is less fussing. I am worn out after hiking all day and the less fuss the better. I like to get camp setup as quickly, easily as possible and a tent has a pre-determined method of setup, minimal thought goes into you just find as flat a spot as you have and do it.

At the moment, I do not own a floored shelter of any kind. Though using a tarp can occasionally be a pain, the experiential benefits have me bringing it over the mid almost all the time.

The only reason I'm looking into a freestanding solo tent is winter use. In mid-depth, super faceted snow (like we have right now) building a snow shelter or staking anything out can be a major exercise. A tent would be nice in those conditions. My wife has historically objected to the lack of floor on psychological grounds, but is changing her mind.

Stuart mentioned the Scottish midge. Unless you have experienced it, you can't imagine what they are like. They form huge clouds and are relentless in their pursuit of a blood meal. The bite isn't painful (though some folk suffer thousands of red blisters), but the combined nuisance can drive you insane. I've seem grown men reduced to tears. The thought of not sleeping in an enclosed shelter of some kind simply isn't worth thinking about. Wether that is a bug bivvy or full tent is down to personal tolerance level.
BTW, i wouldn't class a tarp and bug bivvy as a fully enclosed shelter. What about the ends? Rain doesn't fall straight down, does it? ;)

Bug protection and ease of set up for me. i went with TT contrail to combine that with light weight and the trekking pole set up. Goes along with the whole "don't bring something that can already be done. so having a tent with poles didn't make sense if i had trekking poles.

When you hike in the Northeast there will usually be bugs and the chance of rain so being able to throw up a shelter quick is big for me. I did not like the idea of futzing with multiple pieces with tarp, bivy, ground cloth, etc. seems that at that point unless you're using Cuben it is going to weigh as much with more hassle. not to mention the cost of each piece ends up being more than a tarp tent.

I use a Lunar Duo as oppossed to other set ups for a few reasons.

1. I like a fully enclosed shelter for protection against bugs here in the Mid Atlantic. I think originally I also needed the "protection" a fully enclosed shelter offered (if you can't see it it isn't there), but as my experience has grown, I no longer need that comforting feeling.

2. I'm a big guy, 6'4" 250lbs. I like my space. I like having enough space to have everything inside with me.

3. Tent poles are very awkward to keep in a backpack. I like being able to use my trekking poles.

I think for the purpose your question maybe the tarptent styles should be isolated from more traditional 2 wall tents.

I think differences in region make quite the difference here. Having experienced the humidity and bugs of the American SE, I will never live there, nor be inclined to visit outside November thru February.

As is, I try quite hard to plan my trips such that I avoid camping in the mosquito zones during our spring and summer hatches. They can be as bad as anywhere, just for a short time only.

"* Weight saving - my solo tent is 1020g, tarp + bug net + bivy + warmer sleeping bag = ???"

You would have either a bug net/tent or bivy, not both. The setup I'm considering this season is a HMG Echo I or MLD Grace Solo in cuben, 7-8oz range including guylines. Adding a Serenity Shelter with sil/cuben doors for 6.2-8.5 oz, and you're at 16.5 oz max not including stakes. Essentially a double wall, with the option of leaving the bug tent at home. My Moment weighs 33.8 without stakes. Cost not added in as a factor though.

I've noticed that a few of the tarp users are from California. Rain is banned from blasting horizontaly into the ends of tarps in California. :)

"Rain is banned from blasting horizontaly into the ends of tarps in California. :)"

LOL. Although I'm mainly a fair weather hiker, hoping to change that.

Edited by TRAUMAhead on 12/21/2011 11:50:29 MST.

I use a solo tent for several reasons. I should also say that I don't walk, eat sleep. I might stop at 6 p.m. and lie around until 11 p.m. so I like several things.
1.Bugs. I want to sit up for hours sometimes, so no bivy/tarp would be fun.
2.Privacy. I also sleep until about 9 so I don't want to be a store window or that homeless guy on the corner for everyone to check out.
3. Someone said earlier about getting all my gear packed in the morning. Never lost so much as a minibic this way.
4. Not very much dirt and sand ends up in my sleeping bag.
5. Easy to set up. I only go one way, so I like my tent that way too.
6. I feel that my tent is much more maximized than a tarp. I don't understand why anyone wants a tarp that is 3 feet over at each end to prevent rain splash. Wasted space. Again, that's just me.
7. Safety. No bear out there can penetrate my wall of noseeum netting. Withstands bullets, also. Since I started using a tent I have not been shot or attacked by an animal one single time. They know.

The above post...wins.

Edited by TylerD on 12/21/2011 14:31:29 MST.

Yep, Chris said it best.

My solo tents over the past 15 years have been:
1. REI Sololite (heavy double wall)
2. TT Contrail (nice but could be better in wind)
3. TT Moment (Great tent & fast to pitch)

Next solo tent? Maybe a SMD Skyscape X (Cuben)

Solo tents are the lightest option that will work in virtually ANY campsite... and give complete protection from the elements and critters. (NO BIVY NEEDED)

Out of fiscal necessity I "tarped" in my early days ('70s) of backpacking and I'm over it.

BUGS!

I just ordered a ZPacks Hexamid Solo + with beak - with the net floor, it should be arriving soon. I also have a 5'X8' ID sil-tarp and MLD Bivy. All of these choices are to eliminate any chance of bugs,that begin with "M", from sucking me dry.

I was recently on a trip to the ERL Trail in Arkansas. In camp one night I looked out at the leafy ground cover with my headlamp. Behold, a million bright blue sparkles...that turned out to be spider eyes. Glad I don't just lay down and sleep in the dirt.

Actually, most all of the above, though maybe it really is just a cool gadget...

I have a nice tarp, a great homemade bivy, one of the original Hennessy UL hammocks, and several tarptent style shelters. The shelter I grab first when heading solo for the trail is my Tarptent Moment. This is entirely due to the ease of use - I can be lying down inside in about two minutes. I have privacy, room to change, store my gear, eat, excellent weather protection, etc. Sure, I can get most of those things from the other shelters, but not in such a quick and easy package.

Ex-bivy user here who went back to solo single wall tents and tarptents. Sometimes I needed a tarp to protect the opening if I had to get into the bivy during a storm, and the combined weight approached a solo tent.

Above freezing, it's the bugs. Below freezing, in stormy weather, a tent a place to crawl into my sleeping bag, read in a storm, etc.. One experience stands out; a winter trip in Big Bend (Texas) I rode out a fierce storm in comfort, sitting cross-legged in my tent (an old MSR Zoid 1) while sand blasting wind peppered the fly. With cuben tarps getting better, I may revert back to a bivy + small tarp system under freezing temperatures but it's pretty hard to beat the sheltering aspect while waiting a storm out in relative comfort.

)

Edited by asdzxc57 on 01/25/2012 17:47:06 MST.

Maybe digressing, but I think an article on how to avoid common pitfalls when choosing a tent could be useful.
For example one is to confuse floor area (2d) with usable space (3d) .
Another , very common, is to forget that you most likely will be on top of a mat (and the difference between a 1" and a 2.5" is greater than 1.5" at the end of a tent..) as well as inside a sleeping bag a few inches longer than you at both ends.
Only two out of a dozen or so points I can think of...
Franco

I'm not quite an ultralighter, more just lightweight/superlight. I choose a solo tent for convenience and simplicity. There are many that pack small, utilize a connected pole system, and work as expected. I love getting to camp, laying out the tent on the matching footprint, throwing the pole in front of me and watching it assemble itself, clipping the tent to the pole, and putting your stuff inside. Throwing the fly on and staking in is fast, and I like the kind that is free-standing for the same reason. I have tried a few, but I now love the Fly Creek series from Big Agnes. So light, extremely durable and very waterproof/stormproof (first trip out was a crazy storm on mt marcy and it held up incredibly well with ZERO leakage.) Even when I woke up and discovered water running between a tarp I had sloppily set up as a footprint and the tent floor, the water never came through. That was a miracle.

I think that those who do longer distance through hiking and need to shave every ounce would be much happier in a tarp or tarp-tent setup. They are more versatile and can be pitched in less ideal situations. Plus if you're a really crazy ultralighter you use the tarp as a rain poncho as well! I just can't deal with mice, having to baby my tent, having to futz with the setup over and over to get it pitched right, and having to rely on the right pitching angles to avoid exposure, etc. Nothing like just zipping up a rain fly if it starts to rain, or if you don't want a breeze blowing over you. Also great to have a place to change when needed, and you can cram your girlfriend in if you need to.

Finally, there are many 1 person shelters that make superior winter tents - less open space to heat and a tighter, more enclosed space means more warmth. Also means you don't need a bivy, so when calculating weight, those with a one person tent can leave a bivy out of the equation. For example, I've weighed some tarp/bug screen layer/footprint/bivy setups at equal to or more than some of the lightest solo tents.

Used a solo tent, an REI Quarter Dome T1, for the past four years or so. I really liked it but parted with it recently because I wanted to go lighter and wanted more room (got a two-man Easton Kilo). That said, what I liked about the Quarter Dome, and like about tents in general, is the bug protection, weather protection, privacy, and the extra warmth tents can provide. The Quarter Dome was great because it was narrow enough that I could drop it almost anywhere with no problem, though the setup sucked a bit.

"* Weight saving - my solo tent is 1020g, tarp + bug net + bivy + warmer sleeping bag = ???
You would have either a bug net/tent or bivy, not both."

Fair enough, but I forgot to add poles for the tarp option.

You may take walking poles anyway (I don't), but you don't _need_ them for walking, you need them for the tarp. And you need stakes too.

Franco added an important component: With the increasing popularity of 2.5 inch thick air pads (such as the NeoAir), head and foot end clearance for a tent is of greater importance than ever, even for short folks like me (5'3"). (My KookaBay pad is 3.5 inches thick, which doesn't help.) It's really important to be able to sit up without brushing the hood of the sleeping bag) against the tent ceiling, and extremely claustrophobic to have the tent ceiling only a couple of inches from the face! I've also found more condensation when the ceiling is close to my face.

Another interesting trend is that it's becoming a lot harder to separate a "tent" from a "tarp." There are now dozens of tarp plus fully enclosed bug tent with bathtub floor combinations around that really blur the lines between tent and tarp. With the two together, you basically have a double-wall tent with net inner. A number of the tarps have beaks, too, to cope with that horizontal rain that seems to come from all directions at once in Rocky Mountain thunderstorms. Most of them (unlike the "traditional" double wall tent) can have the fly/tarp set up first (or have the inner tent clipped under the outer, like the new Tarptent offerings), so you can set it up in pouring rain without getting the inner tent wet. A number of "cottage" firms list the tarp and net tent separately so you can even get the tarp/fly from one manufacturer and the net tent from another, assuming they are compatible sizes.

So here's a good question for you--where do you draw the line between a solo tent and a solo tarp? I don't think there is one any more!

It's like the various distinctions between "framed" and "frameless" packs, which resulted in the popular ULA Ohm being excluded from both the SOTM reviews on packs!

Edited by hikinggranny on 12/22/2011 12:12:41 MST.

Christopher,

When similar materials and setup systems are used, the weight difference is very small between tarp/bivy and a tarptent. To compare a tarptent more accurately to your tarp + bivy, the SMD Skyscape X is 15 ounces.

Comparing a cuben tarp and bivy without including the weight of hiking poles will obviously weigh a lot less than a silnylon tarptent that has a long tent pole included in the weight.

You got there. I was going to go on about a duo cuben tarp + bug headnet + Ruta Locura poles for 16.5 oz but there's too many variables/personal preferences/fabrics/locations to consider.

been using a Lunar Solo but just traded up to Skyscape X

1. rain protection (live in the NW)
2. bugs
3. place to stash gear while away from camp

Sean,

Please report back on how you like the Skyscape X. I have to admit that 15oz is pretty tempting. I currently use a Gossamer Gear SpinnShelter and a Alpinlite Bug Shelter 1.25 when needed, so 20.35oz with bug protection.

For me things are a bit different. I do need something with bug netting, that will setup easy, be somewhat freestanding, have good ventilation, will keep the rain off, is light but for which I will not shed a tear if it gets a small rip in its $400 self. I need the bug netting because here in the midwest there are bugs 5 months out of the year. I need somewhat freestanding because the winds will get up very high here on the plains and stands of trees usually attract lightning. I need easy setup because I am not going to wake up three different times in the night to adjust it. It has to have good ventilation because 90F+ with high humidity is not something you want to be enclosed in. I don't need a whole lot of room because I basically use it as a Japanese coffin motel just to sleep in, not read, paint, or cook. I am not going to spend multiple days in it. I have tried to find alternative methods and tents but what limits me is my 6'5" frame and the fact that I side sleep. I think I will just have to end up going with the TT Moment. I could just wrap a tarp around me while I sleep int he colder times but have not found a good bug shelter to use for the warmer times and drape the tarp over it. Sorry if this seems a bit spotty but I have been sick the last few and really needed to get this out of my head.

I'm going to take some exception to your premise. I did choose a solo tent for nterior living space, privacy, views, and bugs. But the trump card was weight.

Now, to be fair, I don't exactly have the lightest Tarp/Bivy/groundcloth system - ID Siltarp, Titanium Goat Ptarmigan bivy w/ full net bug hood and a Tyvek groundcloth. But when I added it all up, I found the LightHeart Gear Solo was lighter. It's capable of outstanding, bug-free views, it's roomy, and it provides privacy.

"How do you feel about owning, carrying, and using a solo tent when you might know that *something else" might give you *something more* for less weight and cost?"

Not sure what you mean by *something more*. If you're referring to a tarp/bivy combo, I don't know how that gives one "something more" for less weight or cost. I got all the attributes you mentioned for less weight than a comparable silnylon system for $199. If I wanted less weight, I could plunk down considerably more for a cuben tent, or I could give up all those attributes and leave my bivy and groundsheet home.

The Tarp/Bivy combo does offer a bit of flexibility. I'm heading out for an AT thru attempt next spring. I considered the tarp/bivy for the flexibility of using the bivy in shelters, and the tarp/bivy when stealth camping. But I would much rather stealth camp than stay in vermin-infested shelters whereever regulations allow And I do like the wx protection, privacy, and the protection from bugs the tent provides.

The fact that I saved a few ounces was the deal clincher.

My primary consideration for using a solo tent was bugs as well. Specifically for Mid-Atlantic, USA conditions, I wanted protection from tick borne diseases. More specifically, I wanted a private space that was large enough in which to conduct a daily tick check.

Of course, it was more a lack of sufficiently refined technique. My current technique is to just conduct a tick check during those times I use the bathroom. Now I prefer the bivy bag/tarp combination for the aesthetic benefits of bivying and because tarps seem more obsolescence proof than tents.

Nick,

Explain how tents become obsolescent and tarps do not.

Tent DESIGNS change and some newer, clever designs are neat but older designs don't become obsolescent unless some new miracle fabric like Cuben emerges, in which case earlier tarps become "obsolescent" too.

I currently used the GG The One. It's fair to say that it has had under-performance issues regarding living up to it's advertised specs and abiitiies, but I do prefer a tent for now. Mainly, bugs, weather and privacy issues as many posters have stated. But really, when it comes to being UL, after seeing countless tarp users need a heavier ground cloth, bag, bivy and extra cord, the total weight of said tarp systems is usually more than a UL tent, especially with the Cuban versions coming out.

With a tent, I don't need a bivy and my bag and ground cloth weigh less as well. Besides,, I can always open the flaps for ventilation in nice clear weather,or just choose to cowboy camp on nice warm nights.

Edited by veganaloha on 12/23/2011 18:43:52 MST.

"- You don't really select a solo tent for severe weather protection,"

No, but neither would I use a tarp for severe weather protection. That said, I use either for general 3 season weather protection and, if things start to look really nasty, try to compensate by site selection. But there will always be times when the mountain gods decide it's your turn in the barrel and you're going to end up miserable no matter what. Life in the mountains.



"So, is it really all about the bugs?"

Definitely, bugs are the main advantage of a solo tent over a tarp, IMO.

For the Sierra, I use a TT Sublite Tyvek up until October instead of a tarp now. It performs exactly as Henry advertises it, which is plenty good 99% of the time down there. As for the other 1%...be prepared to spend some time drying things out. After that, my TT Rainbow works fine even in moderate snow.

I confess to a fantasy, though. I am positively drooling over Ron Moak's Skyscape X.
At 15 oz and totally waterproof, it would replace my tarp/bivy, Sublite, and Rainbow, saving serious ounces in the process. Now for the hard part, justifying the $450 to my wife. :(

You might consider a silnylon version that would be less expensive. I have been hoop testing Thru-Hiker's current silnylon for a week or so, and it is much less saggy when the temp drops than the many other sils I've looked at. Is 2-3 ounces really a deal-breaker for a complete shelter?

It seems like everybody now, after five years or so, is making versions of Kurt Russell's Nomad. Created by one thru-hiker.

Wonder when the industry will come out with these. Never, I hope, so the small makers can stay in business; but it is probably a naive hope. Then we will get the 15D nylon with sil/PU coatings, maybe even polyester. Bet they will be heavier anyway, though.

One puzzle: The video of the X setup clearly shows the short ridge that helps a lot with headroom. But did not know it was there from anything else on the SMD site until looked at the video.

After first inquiring about the sil and the return policy, one could choose one of the modified sil versions of the nomad, set it up in the sunshine during the fall or early spring, and see how much it sags after dark. And if not satisfied, send it back the next day.

What does this have to do with Ryan's survey? The answer I guess is in the features of the nomad design that make it so popular.

@Eric B.-Perhaps you would prefer I had said that tarp designs change more slowly than tent designs?

If you'd like, feel free to PM me and we can discuss this in further detail.

"You might consider a silnylon version that would be less expensive. I have been hoop testing Thru-Hiker's current silnylon for a week or so, and it is much less saggy when the temp drops than the many other sils I've looked at. Is 2-3 ounces really a deal-breaker for a complete shelter?"

That is definitely a consideration. The downside is the sag, plus the weight difference is 8 oz according to the specs on the website. Still, $450 is a ton of Washingtons, which is why I said "fantasize" in my post. We'll see. The spirit is willing.....