Given the topic that has come up regarding the treatment of Guest/Non Paying Members, I was reminded of a posting that Ryan Jordan put up back in July in the thread "Why are you not a member of BPL."

I thought that it might be useful to re-post what Ryan Jordan said.

If you read points #2 & #3, I think you will clearly see how guest are regarded.

Sure there will be people who want to argue point #1, but fact is you can argue if limiting posting on Gear Swap constitutes needing to pay for forum access....knock yourself out if you want to waste time on that topic, but Ryan made a decision and Ryan will have to live with the possible consequences positive or negative. It is what it is.

So below are Ryan's words...take what you will from it.


OK, wow, y'all have been busy.

First, thanks for the feedback. I'm blown away.

Second, I've not read it all yet, but I promise I will. Unfortunately, I'm not able to respond to five forum pages of feedback right now, we're in the midst of the last 4 weeks of the logistics of closing the shop and it's a busy time, and this is where I'm needed right now.

Third, a few things.

1. The forums aren't going anywhere and we're not going to start charging for them.

2. If you can afford a membership and you get benefit out of the forums, then please consider subscribing. If you're freeloading and spending your coin on the latest Lady Gaga albums on iTunes, then you're not going to get a lot of sympathy from the "M"s when you try to advance your "the Internet should be free" argument, because everyone here who has an M or MLIFE next to their forum ID is subsidizing your entertainment. This site would not exist the way it does in a Marxist society.

3. If you can't afford a membership and you are getting benefit out of BPL and its forums, no sweat. You're always welcome here.

4. I'm really looking forward to a number of new projects that will be highlighted at BPL:

- sharing my own writing, photography, and video as a BPL author again!
- production of feature films about wilderness travel that will be traveling the festival circuit and distributed in HD online and via DVD; the first of these will be launched in Spring 2012...more soon!
- expansion of the Wilderness Trekking School to include regional offerings
- revamping the article production pipeline to include rapid publication of articles and reviews about new gear
- lots more ideas, but these are some highlights in process.

5. My blog is an experiment. Don't get too excited over any perception of conflict of interest. I'm not going to offer private guiding to BPL, so it makes sense to offer those services at my blog. The online courses are actually part of the BPL School, but the logistics are managed by the technology at ryanjordan.com (we're evaluating how best to integrate them into the BPL site as well). And the letters allow me to experiment with something new that I may or may not fold into BPL later. I see the blog as a place to try new things that may or may not make it into the BPL Member experience. I've been using that model for 10 years - first with gear, then with the WTS, now with a more service based approach. Also, the blog gives me a low key platform to test some content ideas, and if they resonate with readers, then they motivate me to invest more time to create more comprehensive content for BPL. Finally, there are some things that go on at the blog that just aren't about backpacking, or BPL, or the outdoors, and are best kept to the side.

Finally, thanks. Love the feedback, the discussion, and the commitment to BPL you all have.

Best,
Ryan

Thanks for reposting that Tony.

A few years back, I followed a link here and bought some of the inflatable pillows. That was the only time I had been here until this Spring or Summer, told to check out the Gear Swap for used gear by a fellow N CA bper, Alameda Frank. I may yet buy a yearly sub, not sure, mostly killing time in the evenings. The further transition to lighter gear will take time, so I'm not sure how much use I can do with what I read here.
Duane

I support not having non members to pay using gear swap

That said imo some of these complainers are just out to .... Well complain

Youll notice the names keep popping up ...

Now u can call me an elitist bpl member ;)

I am confused by this argument. Correct me if I am wrong but this is what I am hearing...

'I think the service is great and I want to use it for free'

There is no free lunch. Get over it. $24.99 a year. If you cannot afford to pay that then don't pay it and don't whine because you have no say you are sopping up all kinds of free information as it is so enjoy it and zip it.

Why not call ebay and ask them if they will let you sell your junk on their site for free? Just because something once was free does not mean you are entitled to it forever.

Edited by TylerD on 12/19/2011 15:25:44 MST.

I guess I'm just trying to understand why item #1 says there will not be a charge, and yet there is...

I paid to sell.

I checked out older articles as well as the new.

I'll be sticking around.

"P.S. For those who have offered constructive criticism and possible solutions I thank you for your contributions and caring enough about the community to contribute."

A lot of larger communities work off of substantial donations and free moderation (labor). Some ideas that have worked for them would be limited-run branded gear that is slightly marked up (Buff, carabiners, water bottles etc.), fund raising based off user contributed items, and the good fortune of generous people.

The caveat is that these communities are non-profit and BPL is not. People will be more guarded when considering for-profit donations.

Edited by GriffinS on 12/20/2011 17:29:16 MST.

Stephen,

Point of clarification: Most of the Forum is free.

Actually, there are about 28 Sections of the Forum that are free and non members can view listing on the Gear Swap, which is partial use.

Effectively 96.4% of the Forum is free.

As a whole, the Forums are essentially free.

-Tony

"Stephen,

Point of clarification: Most of the Forum is free.

Actually, there are about 28 Sections of the Forum that are free and non members can view listing on the Gear Swap, which is partial use.

Effectively 96.4% of the Forum is free.

As a whole, the Forums are essentially free."

While the forums are for the most part free, he did exactly what he said he wouldn't do...charge for using the forums (or a very small part of them). Stating that they are 96.4% free is missing the point. It's his business so he can do what he wants, but I get what Stephen is saying.

I'll likely be a member again after the holiday season. I enjoy supporting particular forums when I'm able to. I think I stated it previously in a different thread, but for me, having more people selling things in gear swap is only a good thing and more of an enticement to become a member - just my take on it though.

Edited by catalyst81 on 12/21/2011 00:15:59 MST.

At the very least, you should be able to buy gear and reply to threads without membership, just not sell stuff. At least then subscribers will have a good market.
Hopefully that is happening? I haven't kept up on this.

This move by BPL may help somewhat in our not being spammed by "merchants" who try to market their "stuff" on the Gear Swap exchange. ;-?

Merry Christmas ;-)

Party On,

Newton

Edited in the interest of accuracy.

Merry Christmas Idester ;-)

Edited by Newton on 12/21/2011 08:40:26 MST.

"While the forums are for the most part free, he did exactly what he said he wouldn't do...charge for using the forums (or a very small part of them)."

Of course, there are often many ways to look at things, and folks have a tendency to discount anything that doesn't agree with their predefined notions, regardless of how much sense they may make.

But, FWIW, gear swap isn't a forum (a place to discuss stuff - ideas/gear/trips/etc.), it's an exchange. All of the forums - places to discuss - that were free continue to be free, that hasn't changed at all. BPL decided to make the exchange part of the site slightly restricted (anyone can buy, only members can post).

But I'm sure most of the folks who don't care for that characterization will disagree with it. Someone might even pull out a dictionary! And that's okay.

-- The single biggest problem in communication is the illusion that it has taken place.... George Bernard Shaw

I understand things can often be characterized in differing ways (I'm an attorney), but I think its a bit of a stretch with gear swap. Gear swap is listed under the forums part of the site and is under the forum index. I think its generally considered part of the forums. Of course, reasonable minds can disagree. :)

As a former member I like to think that I might add a small bit of value to this discussion. In a sense I don't care one way or another about what the website does. It's not my "property", and I'm not a "stakeholder" in a manner of speaking, so I won't pretend that I might trespass or defend it.

When I was was a member, I never liked the way some members on the forums, constantly egged non-members to join (generally via an attempted guilt trip). I think this is where a lot of this tension on the forums are created. Frankly, its just bad manners (or perhaps good salesmanship) to say that something is "Free" and then insist that then after such supposed "Free use" people should then "re-pay" by "joining the community."

So yeah, after seeing the more passionate members here continue this pattern I decided I had seen enough. I was that guy that tried to calm matters with the HYOH line, but apparently that just made things worse. I guess I'm not that passionate or that deserving of membership, after all its just a hike right? See right now, in relations to this website, I'm just really not sure....

I do think it is quite unfortunate, but as I intimated earlier I didn't pay my renewal, so its not my problem anymore. Like everything else what I say must be taken with a grain of salt.

So it is what it is. Get out and hike!

Charles,

Fully agree with you regarding the tone of the discussions that have happened between Member and Non Members.

As I have said before, "Charity is not a reason to be a member or a business model."

Adding to what you have said, "Guilting people into buying a membership is not a business model either."

Yes, I am a fan boy of BPL and would like to see lots of people to become members but rather than just telling people that they are leaches and they need to buy a membership, I like to ask the question, "What needs to change on BPL that would entice you to part with your hard earned money to become a member?"

BPL's job is to offer information/education in exchange for money, simple as that.

Clearly, if someone does not want to spend money on a membership, they don't see the value in what is being offered.

So what needs to change?

What more is it that you want to see on BPL that would show clear value to you to make you be willing and happy to give up $24-$25 for a membership?

Making an observation, I have noticed that when this question is asked, there are more than a few people who are non members who are awefully silent, which makes me believe that they would never be willing to buy a membership and simple think that it should all be free.

Fine, agree to disagree, but I would argue then that those voices carry less weight because in the end they will never contribute financially to the sucess of BPL.

Does this mean that complaints, ideas, and suggestions from these people should not be heard? No...good ideas are good ideas. Constructive criticism is always of value. However, the voices that need to matter most are the paying members.

BPL needs to make the Members happy, their clients....they also need to offer some information free that shows the value of a memebership to potential members, otherwise they will never grow their membership.

Can't convince someone to become a member if they don't clearly see the value of having one. So what is the point of beating someone over the head to guilt them into becoming a member? Pissing in the wind???

Conversely, if you are not a member...live with the fact that there are going to be limitations to what you can access on the website. You can complain about it, but fact is...you voice will always count for less because you are not the one who help pay the bills to keep the lights on.

It would be nice if we could go back to HYOH.

Maybe we can just get back to....we are all here, we love backpacking.

P.S. I feel like a cheerleader for BPL, but frankly, I am getting tired of all these discussion because it seems like we keep bringing up the same issues over and over. However, I do love and appreciate civil and constructive conversations that offer ways to improve the website and experience for all of us. Members and Non Members.

-Tony

As you can tell, I am not a member. Why? Because the only thing I do is read the forums. There doesn't seem to be anything else here that I am interested in. Maybe that will change, maybe not. The only thing I know of that needs a membership is reading the "articles" and posting for sale items. I don't have anything to sell. I don't have any idea if the "articles" are worth it or not, but I have no information to cause me to believe that they are worth it to me.

So, I'm fine with the change, from my own personal viewpoint.

Generally speaking it is difficult to get members to pay to be part of a forum. After all, the real value to forums are the writings of the members. But, if it is necessary to keep the forum operating then those members that really want the forum to exist are typically willing to donate to the cause (I have "offered" to donate to a forum before). Gear-swap is kind of a gray area, and it has not unexpectedly caused polarized viewpoints. But, the same thing happens through out the 'net...

I haven't been on BPL for a couple of month now but all I'm seeing is people complaining about non members posting. This is why I will probably never become a member. I find all I need on the Hammock forum without the BS and everyone is nice, friendly and helpful. I have also noticed a lot of new members over there recently. Hum!

"but all I'm seeing is people complaining about non members posting"

No you aren't. The driving force was the new requirement to become a member to sell gear. It has nothing to do with what you claim.

Kurt, it is unfortunate that all you see are the couple of threads about membership. These in fact make up a tiny portion of all the other activity on the forums, and threads that you don't want to see are easily not clicked on. Take some time to look past the few threads and you'll find a host of new information delivered in a friendly, helpful way.