Hello everyone, this is my first post and I'm excited to be a part of the community. I'm looking into getting a new sleeping setup. Having searched the forums for quite some time I am having a hard time finding a lot of info on the Zpacks 20 degree bag. I found one lengthy thread but it didn't seem to have a lot of posts on first hand experience with the Zpacks. I'm curious if some owners can chime in on how accurate the temp rating is. According to the website it states "12.4oz 900fp down, 19.8oz total weight" for the wide/long. The numbers look good, but comparing it to a Katabatic Alsek "15oz 900fp down, 24.6oz total weight" I'm just not seeing them as nearly neck-to-neck. There is one big difference I see- the Zpacks is, in essence, a bag whereas the Kat is a quilt (more fabric area to fill with down for the Zpacks). It's been a month or so since I went on Kat's website but I saw prices went up quite a bit. In correlation they have changed to 900fp instead of the 850fp down they used to use. Not in correlation is that the weights are the same, so is the fill amount and temp ratings. Maybe I'm thinking about this the wrong way but given the use of a higher FP down and the same amount as the old version wouldn't temp ratings change? I'd really like to hear some opinions on this and particularly experiences with the Zpacks 20 degree bag and it's trueness to the rating. In addition, what temps have you taken both bag/quilts down too? I've heard nothing but high praise for Joe (and his products) and received a few emails from him stating he is a cold sleeper and is comfortable to 20 degrees with the bag and some light clothes on. Given his record, I don't think he would falsely entice someone to buy his product if it didn't fit them. Thanks for all your help!

I have used my zpacks sleeping bag 6 times now since october, in temperatures ranging from about 38 deg to ~26-28 deg in moderate winds (10-25mph). I did get slightly chilled at my knees and butt in the mid 20s, but I think It may have been due to my sleeping style since I turn and toss a lot; I created a few cold spots. My torso and feet were nice and toasty though. Also I was only wearing cap 2s + beanie and was on a neoair (mid 20s on neoair alone is pushing it). I still can't really tell if I am a cold sleeper or not, as some nights I feel VERY hot and other times I wake up at 5 am feeling slightly chilled, but usually fall asleep again and wake up warm. For now ill just consider myself an average sleeper as far as warmth.

This bag, IMO is very true to its rating. I would probably get a 1oz or 2oz overfill if I was to do it again to safeguard against cold spots from my tossing and turning.

Another plus is that my girlfriend is getting the same bag so we will be able to zip them up together, a very nice perk in my books.

I do need to get a good hood to go with the bag, I would like the katabatic windom but they've been sold out for some time now, and I don't want the blue color that zpacks offers (Im sure the hood itself does its job just fine), as I want to be able to use it with my black nanopuff without looking too goofy!

The ZPacks bags/quilts have not been around very long (as in, just a few months) so you are not going to find a lot of information on them. Just the way that works.

The ZPacks sleeping bags are true to rating based on the vast majority of feedback I have read. So are the Katabatic quilts. So really no reason to let the temperature rating effect your decision.

The difference in 850/900 down has very little to do with temperature rating. The total weight of down that is within them, and the way the baffles are sewn, and the amount of loft are really the three most important things you should take into account.

They are both going to be of excellent design quality.

The Katabatic is a quilt and the ZPacks can be ordered as a quilt or a bag.

Neither have a hood so you should also factor into your total pack weight the addition of a down hood, which at 20(f) you are probably going to need. This leads to the question of whether or not to consider sleeping bags that are just as light weight that have hoods already attached. The Western Mountaineering UltraLite can get close once you factor together the weight of a ZPacks sleeping bag and a Nunatak Down Balaclava. Just something to consider as you think about how you want to approaching your sleeping gear.

Regarding ratings and warmth, I treat the manufacturers rating as a more of a vague suggestion. It gives you an idea of how warm the bag is, but if you really want to know how warm it is you need to focus on the amount & quality of the down.

After using quilts for the past couple years, my personal rule of thumb for average girth QUILTS is:

40F - 7oz 800FP down
30F - 9oz 800FP down
20F - 12.5oz 800FP down

This assumes you're an average sleeper, on an R-2 to R-3 pad and wearing light-medium baselayers.

With a sleeping bag, you've got more area to fill with down (wider + hood), so I find you generally need about 30% more down to achieve a similar warmth. My personal rule of thumb for bags is:

40F - 9oz 800FP down
30F - 12oz 800FP down
20F - 16oz 800FP down

When I look at the specs on Zpacks sleeping bags and see 10.5oz of 900FP down (equal to 11.8oz of 800FP) in their 56" girth regular length hood-less bag, that strikes me as being a little light for 20F. If all that down was in a quilt with a girth around 52", then it would be close to my 12.5oz goal for a 20F quilt. I personally would rate 10.5oz of 900FP down at about 23F in a quilt and at about 26-30F in a sleeping bag, except the Zpacks bags have no hood to share the down with, so I would say 25F would be my personal expectation.

Consider that Western Mountaineering puts 16oz of 850FP down in their 20F rated Ultralite bag, and it has a fairly similar girth. Also, WM's MegaLite bag uses 12oz of 850 FP down for it's 30F rating and that's more down than Zpacks 20F bag. Of course these have hoods and the Zpacks bags don't though.

Thinking beyond just the temperature rating of the bag, two big things to consider are:

1) What other gear will you be carrying that you can wear inside if needed? I've always got my Ex-light down vest with me in the summer and in the shoulder seasons I've got my MB Alpine Light jkt and down pants. I recently switched from a 25F quilt to a 35F quilt because with the 25F quilt I wasn't able to take advantage of these layers I was carrying anyways. I can take my 35F quilt to 30F in the summer with my vest, and I think I'll be able to take it to 20F in the shoulder seasons with the big parka, down pants and warm socks. Think about what temperature rating you want your bag/quilt to be capable of handling, and then ask yourself if you were on a trip where encountering this low is a realistic possibility, what other warm layers will you already be carrying? Maybe you want to be able to handle 20F nights, but you only need a 25F bag because you carry Cap 3 tights, down socks and a Patagonia down sweater?

2) Adding more down to your sleeping bag is by far the most efficient way to add warmth, aside from using other layers you've already got with you. The shell weight of a sleeping bag (everything but the down) doesn't change much whether you've got a 40F bag or a 20F bag, so if you opt for 2oz more down, it might only cost you 2.2oz total. Conversely, down clothing is rarely more than 50% down as a percentage of the total weight, so making up for a cold bag by adding a bunch of warm layers gets heavy. Absolutely you want to take advantages of the layers you're carrying already, but you also don't want to wind up in a situation where you have to bring extra layers just to wear them at night because you didn't get a warm enough bag. If your bag isn't warm enough and you need an extra 2oz of down, it would have only added 2 to 2.5oz to the bag, while adding a down garment with 2oz of down will likely cost you 7oz.

So the bottom line is to absolutely use the warm layers you're bringing anyways, but don't get too cold of bag so you need to bring even more layers than you need outside the bed.

Freezing sucks....don't cut it too tight either.

Edited by dandydan on 12/18/2011 13:59:32 MST.

Thank you!

That is quite a price increase on the Katabatic quilts. Might have priced me out of their lineup

In my experience with both of these guys you can't go wrong with the service you will receive. Both will bend over backwards to satisfy.

In terms of quilts, I only have experience with Katabatic's palisade. That being said, Aaron uses more fill that bags with equal temp ratings. He over stuffs the foot box area and uses premium materials so for my money I will always get my quilts from Katabatic (they also happen to be locally made in CO). Katabatic is more of a 'purist' quilt so if your not use to these kind of bags a Zpacks with the back skirt material might help w/ drafts.

Have been back n forth past two weeks between Zpacks, and Katabatic quilts! The recent fairly significant price increase by Katabatic was this week sort of a tipping point! I am 6', 190 lbs, 43"chest, have ordered the Zpacks 20 degree, in large/wide w/2 ounces of overfill, w/straps/no zipper! So as a 21.5 or so ounce quilt, w/14.4 ounces of 900 wht. down, believe it will be comfortable in the 20 degree range, with other variables maybee 15 or so degrees. My current warmest 3 season sleeping bag is the previous model Marmot Hydrogen in large, w/13 ounces of 850 wht. down, total being I think 26 ounces. Have been fairly comfortable w/the Hydrogen at 26 degrees in Tarptent Rainbow, w/Patagonia 2 capilenes and socks.

Check out Tim Marshall's quilts on his new website. They are very competitively priced considering the quality that his quilts are known for. Just playing around it looks like a 6' Revelation quilt good to 20* with the regular width will run about $230 or so. I call that a steal.

The slight price increase on Katabatic quilts now is actually more in line with the quality of their product and service, what they were asking before was a steal really.

Tim's Revelation quilt looks great, his price is comparable to the JRB stuff, but with Tim's added touch and quality. His base price on all his Revelation quilts is phenomenal, definitely a huge bargain.

You should also check out hammockgear.com for top quilts. Adam and Jenny at HG have been in the quilt business for a several years. They make excellent quilts and will make them using whatever fabric you want. Their customer service is superb, and they specialize in doing custom work.

The prices are comparable to Joe's once you factor in the custom facric (since HG's standard is 1.1 ripstop).

I personally have several items from HG, but if you look at reviews on hammockforums.net, you'll see that they're one of the best in the business.

Thank you for the good explanations. I'll wait I believe to get another bag. Spending money on a quilt that will only save me 1.5 oz. to 4 oz over my WM 24 oz. Caribou bag isn't worth it for now. Come time to get another bag, yeah, maybe then. Plus, not sure at the moment on a slim, regular, or wide, more likely a reg. for a 6'er.

Duane