wow, you are really new to the internet aren't you. you don't need to "SIFT" through ads. They sit quietly in the gutter (that is those giant white and grey columns there over on the right and left taking up 50% of the screen) So, i'm not sure exactly what would be going on but you need to see more forums

Also, Ads should create no more bias on reviews than the reviewer getting the gear for free like they already do. so if that is an issue then the integrity of the reviewer.

RC has banner ads from Backcountry.com.


Mountain project has no ads on their forum only on the home page, photo section and route database.

Edited by JakeDatc on 12/19/2011 08:53:26 MST.

Ditto David re everything he said -- civil, constructive comments/criticism of BPL's future is great, and please, no ads cluttering up the site.

Seems to me that a model primarily dependent on funding from membership would be more responsive to members' interests compared to a model based on ad revenue (and good-will) of commercial interests committed to profit.

Not to disparage profit or highly commercialized gear, but keeping BPL ad-free, or at most ad-unobstrusive, provides a welcome oasis for substantive content.

I've followed BPL since BPL's earliest "non-membership" days. The Arc quilt was one of my first purchases for "going light" after I learned about the Arc -- as well as benefits/techiques for "lightening up" -- from reading early articles at BPL.

BPL is and has been a great resource for me, as have the postings on gear, trips, and techniques by many others once the forums were introduced.

I agree, too, with Fred that "content" is key. I see BPL as going through some growth pains as it adapts to matching (and maintaining) its value as a resource to the increasing demands of diverse interests.

I, too, hope BPL's fundamental value as a great resource isn't overlooked, or lost, because of a lot of rant and rage.

Lighting a candle beats cursing the darkness.

Edited by JRScruggs on 12/19/2011 09:11:45 MST.

You would rather have giant blank space than profitable pictures in the gutters.. wow. you guys really are from the dark ages. news flash.. you don't even need to click ads for them to create $ they go by page views.

i showed a friend who is in the computer/internet business and laughed at how old this platform is and how easy it would be to upgrade if someone actually wanted to put in a tiny amount of effort.

just make this place members only then watch it fizzle out. Someone with a better idea how to run a business will step up and fill the void.

Tony,
Perhaps with a more civil outlook on things I can venture another opinion on enhancing the site per the OP's wishes and also drawing more members.

Ads? Well, I come here mostly for the articals and forums. Ad's are what drives me away from sites.

Perhaps the biggest factor contributing to the lack of membership is the economy. Everyone, generally speaking, has less disposable income. UL people are kinda out at the fringes of the camping community, soo, one of the first things that can get dropped is costs ascociated with it. People still go camping, after all, it is a low cost activity, generally. As an example only, "I do not need a 8oz Cuben tarp when a 14oz Silnylon tarp is still usable" is the attitude. Of course you get a range of people that can and do still buy new gear, just not as much as they used to. Same for membership. I would not have a membership, except I was undecided to reup, despite the value of the site's stuff. My wife said go for it as a Christmas present. This is a good idea and is well presented on the front page.

There are fewer people interested in hiking. Less population interest means less people at the fringes. Unfortunatly, more people are simply NOT in my woods., though some areas remain about the same or even increased in popularity. NY state parks are a good example of those more heavily used. Trails are less heavily used. As are deep woods canoe trails and longer distance trails. People like to hike for a day, it simply isn't in their interest to hike for a week. Perhaps the articals should diversify in content to fit the newer audience? Hence providing more value to these types of more mainstream hikers?

You mentioned charging to use Gear Swap. This was discussed and found to be an expensive option to implement. It may well be a truely viable alternative. Again, because of the fringe nature of light weight hiking(one of my hiking buddies still thinks I am a bit wonky,) Charging for sales might indeed be an option. But, I suggest a simple aproach to minimize any programming/implementation costs. Perhaps a simple charge per ad (up to 3 items) form rather than the forum like posting that currently exists. Questions to the poster, via PM, all exchanges to the poster. And, an automated removal of the Gear Swap ad after a few days. Cost, is required as is condition and general description, including weight. A sugestion only. Perhaps we can entice more non-members to the site, and, decide if they want to join. Maybe not... 3-4000 is a lot of money in programming and could well go into forum upgrades. Unless somebody wanted to do it for no charge as a test solution.

I suggest that more questions be posed. Often, it is difficult to write about "things." Determining a main subject, organizing a plot line, performing tests, evaluating gear, conclusions, and opinions. There is a HUGE body of knowledge out here. Asking a single very specific question, then publishing the best answers chosen by a group of staff, lifers, members and/or non-members chosen for some demonstrated expertise related to that question. Again, Content->readers and Readers->members. This is a Magazine, after all.

Anyway, my thoughts only . . .
jdm

Edited by jamesdmarco on 12/19/2011 10:26:44 MST.

I too have been driven away from other sites in the past by ads.

When you become dependent on advertisers, you become subservient to them. Any attempt to honestly review gear or services from an advertiser is a conflict of interest, and results in either watered down reviews, or even in some cases, glowing reviews of poor products.

Censorship of forum discussions about products is also frequently a side effect. Often as well as censorship of any post which references any competing websites.

Open, uncensored review and discussion of ultralight gear and its use is the reason why people come here.

Edited by livingontheroad on 12/19/2011 10:38:56 MST.

It seems to me that over the years Backpacking Light has tried to be several things and maybe some goals are not compatible with others.

1. Is it a non-profit membership controlled organization?
There are membership dues so it fits that criteria.
It's not non-profit but according to voices here the profit seems to be very meager so maybe it straddles the definition there.
What has also been made clear here is that the members do not have membership rights in the form of voting on leadership, financials or direction of the organization.
So it doesn't pass muster on the last point of definition.

2. Is this a subscription based online magazine?
If we call the membership fee a subscription it fits the definition rather nicely.

3. Is it an online community?
Most definitely, and an intelligent, gracious and generous one at that.

These three goals of BPL seemed to co-exist if not perfectly then at least workably for several years. It no longer does because:

1. Changes were introduced that were not vetted with the membership (introduction of ads earlier this year and now restriction of forums.)
The membership reacted: "Hey we are members, doesn't that count for something?"

2. The restriction of the Swap forums feels like only the first step to restricting the forums to paying members only. This would shrink the community from large, active and growing one to something else entirely.

Where does Backpacking Light want to go from here?
1. It could expand the content for the online magazine and try to survive as a truly subscription based service.
2. It could upgrade the forum software, get advertising revenue, and run a professional but free forum website for the Backpacking Light community.
3. It could turn itself into a true membership organization where leadership, financials, and decisions are turned over to the paying members.

So to question goes to Ryan Jordan: Where do you want to take it for here?

Especially as providing some "big-picture" context/contrast for issues in current threads on BPL's past-present-future, conflicting perspectives, and civility, the thread at the link below concerning the "value" of the Backpacker Gear Guide and evolution of its print magazine has many thoughtful, well-spoken comments:

http://tinyurl.com/What-To-Do-Or-Not-Do

I wouldn't characterize the decision to limit advertisement as akin hailing from the "Dark Ages." I have no insight into the decision process, or if a decision regarding advertising was ever made, or if it was just one of those things that evolved over time. I agree with James - the economy and focused appeal of UL backpacking does present its own challenges. Including, I suppose, its appeal to niche segments of the the sporting goods and clothing universe. The question that I think we all have is what are advertisers willing to pay to reach this narrow focus? And what is the spending power of backpackinglight.com readers? And how often do they spend?

There are other considerations to advertising. Management costs, bandwidth usage, and most certainly, editorial control. It is difficult to remain impartial in the wake of advertising. Advertisers often have influence on all but the most powerful and well-funded publishers, if for no other reason than publishers depend on advertisements. (In the interest of full disclosure, I was a newspaper journalist for several years and still have many associates in the field. Editors mostly do resist advertising interference.)

From a purely aesthetic consideration, I recall the advice of graphic designers: "white space is your friend." You don't need every square inch of a web page, newspaper, magazine or packaging covered by competing messages. Rather, judicious use of white space focuses the eyes to what is important. A great example of this is Apple. Their packaging designs are simple, uncluttered and highly effective. To this point, Jake made the case for advertising that were not overly intrusive.


I appreciate the civil discourse. It makes for a more thought-provoking discussion than does recrimination.

Dirk

Edited by dirk9827 on 12/19/2011 13:30:24 MST.

deleted

Edited by rOg_w on 05/28/2012 17:10:40 MDT.

I would suggest that instead of advertising (pay per click, trying to sell ad space, etc.) that BPL reach out to companies to seek out sponsorship for the forums. I would imagine that the costs associated with the forums are somewhat fixed and it would seem like that would be a way to offset the forum costs and ensure that the contributing companies adhere to the BPL mission. Plus it could help defray expenses and maybe allow BPL to get back to its mission. I would be happy to help sponsor the continuation of the forums from a business perspective (putting money where mouth is). I would imagine that there are other gear companies that would be willing to do the same.

Secondly, the real problem with BPL and generating continuing income is the fact that the magazine/site is too niche. I am not a member because, well, I am not an ultralight backpacker (heresy, I know). I am most definitely a backpacker, just not an ultralight backpacker. While there is a welcoming attitude by the majority of the folks on this site, there are cases of over the top proselytizing. There isn't anything right or wrong with that, it just makes those of us that aren't UL, SUL, XUL etc, not very likely to sign up for a membership. My suggestion would be to broaden the appeal in some shape or form...although many may not agree with that.

Finally, the value proposition is not apparent. With a print magazine, at least I know that 9 times a year, Backpacker will show up in my mail box. I enjoy reading it, even though I may not agree with everything in it. I am also a member of the WA Trails Association. They have great guides and trail reports on their site, and I receive a magazine from them. Also, I see all of the great work that they do maintaining trails. Access to old BPL articles and a trickle of new material isn't all that compelling compared to the apparent value by other membership driven or subscription based backpacking orgs. Many people point to the value of the forums, however, those are offered for free, and if they weren't there are plenty of other places to go to discuss backpacking, especially for those that aren't part of the ultralight crowd. All of the questions about the relative health of the BPL is also concerning.

All of that having been said...Ryan Jordan, you have my email address. I am willing to help. I would love to hear other gear company owners chime in.

Since this thread is getting really long, I just wanted to restate that I am watching the comments and have alerted Ryan to the thread(s). He's presently out of town and attending to the passing of a relative so I don't expect any official response from him until after the holidays.

Fred,

I completely agree with you regarding the Home page and that it is all about CONTENT!

Your points on the home page are spot on in my opinion.

Frankly, the Home page sucks and really is an under utilized bit of space to provide compelling bits of useful information (free information) that would entice someone to become a member of BPL.

All that I can tell you is that the "wiping" of the home page and simplication of the home page is step one in getting the home page reformatted to something better.

Various ideas have been put forth about the home page:

1. Weekly advice column to answer question submitted by the public

2. Photo of the week, photos submitted by the public

3. Gear Highlight/Profile: giving a free mini review or info on a UL product

4. Rotating "Core" Articles explaining UL/Lightweight backpacking & how to do it

These were just a few ideas that came up to make the home page more interesting and giving a reason to invite guest back to visit the webpage. More visits, more opportunities to show value and entice a guest to become a members of BPL.

I view the home page as answering the fundamental question of:

What is UL/Lightweight backpacking and how do I lighten my pack weight?

It is not reasonable to ask someone to sign up for a Membership if you don't understand the basics of UL/Lightweight backpacking.

Hopefully, in answering this basic question, it will spark further interest in how to lighten their load and show the value of buying a membership.

Kristen,

YES, the fundamental question behind all of this is: What does BPL want to be?

I think the answer is: A Membership/Subscription Based Website that answers the question of what is UL/lightweight backpacking and how to lower your pack weight.

Anything else, ads, money from gear swap, etc....would be supplimental income.

Lastly, regarding only asking MLife members for their input. Well, my opinion based on nothing, is that asking MLife members might have been creating a partial solution to an unintended problem when the MLife membership option was created.

I think that creating the MLife membership came at a time when things may have been financially desperate for BPL and it was a great value to those who took it and it gave BPL a quick infusion of needed cash.

Unfortunately, there were promises made and had to be made up benefits unique to MLife members...with the closing of the Gear Shop, some felt that the value of the MLife membership was less than promised or simply had less value. (I agree that looking at what was going to be promised with the MLife membership vs. what was actually delivered...it fell short, but I do find value in MLife purely in saving myself money in the long term for membership fees). Opening up the discussion to just MLife members may have been an attempt to offer something unique and "special" to those MLife members.

Does it mean that non members/non-MLife opinions don't count? Hardly. In fact, the reason I have have started a few threads on the forum was to solicit everyone's opinion and I think that Ryan Jordan and staff values all the input that can be given.

Unfortunately, MLife membership may have created a tierred membership class system that generated resentment or made people feel "less than".

I tend to look at the MLife situation for what it most likely was....a "desperate" need at the time to generate cash to keep the lights on and keep the website going. perhaps hastily conceived that caused some problems within the community.

For me, I am just glad that the lights are on and that I know that BPL is evolving to something better. Closing the gear shop was a 1st step and a hard step to take in that direction.

Looking forward to what 2012 will bring and I am hoping that when the time is right, likely after the holidays, that we will hear from Ryan Jordan to give us some sense of what the future holds for all of us here.

-Tony

Edited by Valshar on 12/19/2011 13:26:38 MST.

Chris,

Thank you for the update and for letting Ryan Jordan know about this thread.

Fact is, family is more important than this debate at the moment and he can deal with this later, when he has time.

Please pass along well wishes and sorry for his loss, made all the more difficult at this holiday season.

-Tony

I've been on here for a few months now and only just this week saw that there are non-member only articles. All ive heard/seen has been forums are free.. articles are for members.

Tony I like your ideas. even go one further and say there should be a photo gallery. people probably take awesome pictures and the forum doesn't really give them justice. It would also be a good way to show off gear actually being used. It's one thing for someone to post up a list of the stuff they have but show me a set up in the field and that is far more interesting.

Jake,

I think that the problem with much of the website is the poor organization of the great wealth of information that lies in the older articles and in this forum.

Sadly, the current setup is good for looking at the newest articles...finding the golden nuggest of wisdom in the past in very difficult.

Rule one of Bussiness: Be Easy to Do Business With!

In this case, BPL is in the business of educating and providing information.

If you can not search for it easily and find it, less value in being a member.

Also, the older "core" articles, like the BPL Book, are out of date and should be refreshed once per year so that the information and example products are current and relavent to the reader/new member.

As for photo galleries....I think that the value of them is two part.

1. Gives people a reason to return to the website to see new photos

(Maybe they come back to see if THEIR photo was selected to be posted as pic of the week...if so, they might tell their friends, who visit the website to see friend's photo- generates more traffic to BPL).

2. Photos can provide inspiration for people to get out and take trips. See gear being used in the field.

We can talk about gear, but how about showing me how it is used in the field.

Make me drool over a very cool photo with some UL gear in it that makes me want to go and get out on the trail!

And yes....keep it interesting so that I want to come back to BPL.

More visits, more chances for someone to decide to sign up for a membership.

Marc,

I agree with you for the need to broaden the appeal of the BPL website...fact is, more appeal to a wider audience, the larger pool of potential members to sign up for a membership.

However, we do have to acknowledge that UL/SUL/XSUL people are freaking NUTS! By definition, THIS is the fringe of backpacking and will never be mainstream.

That said, there are many elements of Lightweight/UL Backpacking that can benefit any traditional backpacker.

Offering those "Core" articles are part of the membership and clearly advertising them on the Home Page would go a long way to showing the value for signing up for a membership.

Not everyone will become a UL backpacker...technically, I am at a base weight of 10.5-11 lbs, which means I am lightweight. But I definitely have benefited tremendously from the knowledge found here to lower my pack weight.

So the point is, let the public know that you might not be interested in having 10 lbs base weight, but would you like to have a pack that weights 30 lbs vs. the 50 lbs that you are carrying now?

-Tony

Edited by Valshar on 12/19/2011 13:42:37 MST.

"A Membership/Subscription Based Website that answers the question of what is UL/lightweight backpacking and how to lower your pack weight."


I agree that BPL publically clarifying its focus would be most welcome. The length and proliferation of these threads proves to me that there's a perhaps greater than normal investment in the community here. And I'm glad to see productive discussion of that.

While I think the first part of the above formulation has to be the first focus, I think making the "how" part a major focus is misguided. It's a sufficiently simple and mundane subject that unless BPL wants to be Backpacker and republish the same articles (for all intents and purposes) every 18 months content will be hard to come by. I'd rather see the focus be "What is UL backpacking, and what can I do with it?" In and of itself a light pack is both boring and meaningless.

+1 Dave. Many other hobby magazines seem to me to get trapped in the how to area and realise that what they are talking about isn't all that complex. The result is rehashing the same article time and again. If BPL ended up like Backpacker Magazine or Outdoor Photographer I would quickly loose interest. These magazines seem to be heavy on advertising and low on useful content to me. Many of the articles on BPL would NEVER get published in a traditional mag.

David,

I might disagree with you a little bit, but I understand where you are coming from.

To me, I think that someone can get 95% of what they need to know to become UL within 1 to 2 years of becoming a member.

After that, being here is to keep up with the State of the Market, and for social/entertainment reasons.

If you agree with the premise that there is a rotating membership that signs up to learn what UL/lightweight backpacking is....figuring that the compelling reason to have a membership is a window of 1-3 years to learn all about how to lower your packweight, then new membership has to be the key focus.

Hence why I believe that those "Core" beginner/newbie articles are so imporant.

That said, BPL can not ignore the core long term members who contribute a ton of knowledge in the forums and are likely to be contributing writers and authors of articles to be published online.

I would say that your point on Providing INSPIRATION on how to use that UL Gear would be goal #2.

As we all know....what is the point of having all this UL gear if you don't get out on the trail and use it?

Having articles on technique in the field and trip reports would do well to serve the "mature" and educated UL/lightweight backpackers.

I agree with you that BPL needs to have a Mission Statement/Focus, but I just think that the focus #1 needs to be the newbie/traditional backpacker who is looking to lower their packweight and BPL being the solution to their problem/answer to their questions.

-Tony

bpl will always be a great place to hang out and gain information on ul backpacking while i totally understand the reasoning behind making the gear swap for members only i can t say that i feel its fair to do this however everyone has an opinion on the subject and this is only mine the debates over it could go on for months and i would hate to see friendships lost over a difference of opinion

people here always welcome newcommers with open arms and are willing to share great information to help others lighten up thier packs after hiking with some of the folks here on a few different trips i can tell you that folks here are some of the coolest people you could ever meet and camp with and i really hope that bpl doesn t become something that it is not a members only site where (pay to play ) would become the norm and not the option

divr6347

Pretty shocking how important gear swap is to some.

You can still share stories of gear, pictures of trips with gear, journals of myo gear...