Forum Index » Winter Hiking » Winter pad setup... will it work in 0F?


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Bryce F.
(bster13) - MLife

Locale: Norwalk, CT
Winter pad setup... will it work in 0F? on 12/14/2011 11:29:54 MST Print View

- Polcycro ground sheet
- Klymit Inertia X Frame, full length 8.8oz
- Gossamer Gear Thinlight Insulation Pad 1/8" 2.96oz
- NeoAir Short 9oz

Total weight = 20.76

The thought is to use the GG pad to fully cover/seal the "holes" in the Inertia X, effectively keeping warm air in there, and then layer the NeoAir on top for further torso insulation.

1) Does this seem feasible?
2) Does this seem warm enough?
3) Is there a lighter way to approach this?

Will be using a Marmot Helium 16F bag with JRB 40F quilt inside. (Next year will have proper zero degree quilt)

Travis Leanna
(T.L.) - MLife

Locale: Wisconsin
Re: Winter pad setup... will it work in 0F? on 12/14/2011 11:39:43 MST Print View

Bryce,
One thing about the Inertia pad is that those holes are designed to allow the sleeping bag to loft inside of them. Putting a pad on top will defeat that purpose. Since the Neoair is more insulating than the Thinlight, my guess is that the air in the holes will be cooler than you'd want.

It may be warm enough, but for my taste, that system is too cumbersome. I'd look into a DAM by KookaBay. You can get a nice warm pad from him for 20 ounces.

Edited by T.L. on 12/14/2011 11:45:04 MST.

Jim W.
(jimqpublic) - MLife

Locale: So-Cal
Klymit on 12/14/2011 11:53:55 MST Print View

I've spent a few nights shivering as snow sucked the life out of me..

Presuming you already own what's listed, I suggest a full-length foam pad with the Klymit on top. 1/8" might be enough, but I suggest having at least 1/4" with you when you test it. The Klymit looks interesting, but I'm not convinced that my body would bridge from beam to beam without falling off. Sort of like sleeping across 4 padded sawhorses. It also looks like it's for pure back sleepers only.

Bryce F.
(bster13) - MLife

Locale: Norwalk, CT
Re: Re: Winter pad setup... will it work in 0F? on 12/14/2011 12:03:46 MST Print View

Hrmm... well I have these items now, the kookabay may be nice in time. Good to know it's the same weight ballpark.

Interesting...yeah I know Klymit advertises the cutouts letting down from a sleeping bag expand and provide insulation, but tI thought sealing it off may be good. Dunno.

The Kylmit is thinner than the neoair, but I'd have the neoair layered on top to give additional thickness to my torso.

Actually... should I place 1/8in on the bottom, then the neoair, then the Klymit to allow the "down lofting" factor?

Travis Leanna
(T.L.) - MLife

Locale: Wisconsin
Re: Re: Re: Winter pad setup... will it work in 0F? on 12/14/2011 12:05:42 MST Print View

>Actually... should I place 1/8in on the bottom, then the neoair, then the Klymit to allow the "down lofting" factor?

Since you already have all three, this might be a better way to go. Sounds like it's time to do some testing!

Bryce F.
(bster13) - MLife

Locale: Norwalk, CT
Re: Re: Re: Re: Winter pad setup... will it work in 0F? on 12/14/2011 12:07:05 MST Print View

It's colder in Wisconsin now... u try it first. :p

Travis Leanna
(T.L.) - MLife

Locale: Wisconsin
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Winter pad setup... will it work in 0F? on 12/14/2011 12:08:57 MST Print View

Hah! Like by 3 degrees. :)

Jim W.
(jimqpublic) - MLife

Locale: So-Cal
Winter pad setup... will it work in 0F? on 12/14/2011 12:11:16 MST Print View

With those layers I would go Neoair on the bottom, then the foam, then the Klymit. Try not to fall off.

Bryce F.
(bster13) - MLife

Locale: Norwalk, CT
Interesting spin on 12/14/2011 12:13:56 MST Print View

Can place neoair and foam on the ground, then place Klymit inside my bad as it is pretty narrow. Hrmm...

Clint Hewitt
(WalkSoftly33) - F

Locale: New England
Mattress Wrestling on 12/14/2011 12:23:08 MST Print View

Bryce,

You my have just invented a new sport, mattress wrestling! What are the ticket prices? I ll pay for stadium seating 50yrd line.

Kidding aside I feel like anything more then two pads and you will spend more time wrangling your pads together then sleeping on them. Though putting one inside your sleeping bag may mitigate this issue some.

I think Im gonna go for a ZLite and a GG Thinlite-Eggcrate, my BA insulated aircore has some stubborn holes that will not seal. :(

Bryce F.
(bster13) - MLife

Locale: Norwalk, CT
Re: Mattress Wrestling on 12/14/2011 12:24:22 MST Print View

I will have to "see it to believe it" in my living room and see how difficult it will be to configure all three of these. *sigh*

David Olsen
(oware)

Locale: Steptoe Butte
1/4" max for still air without insulation to stop air currents on 12/14/2011 12:51:51 MST Print View

I was taught that anything over 1/4" of air needed some sort of deadening materials
(down, foam etc.) Air currents negate the advantages of more than that. So it would seem
the open channels of the one Klymit should be next to the down sleeping bag for max insulation effect.

Edited by oware on 12/14/2011 12:53:08 MST.

Chad Miller
(chadnsc)

Locale: Duluth, Minnesota
Re: Winter pad setup... will it work in 0F? on 12/14/2011 13:48:18 MST Print View

Well lets look at your pad setup from an R-value comparison

I normally use a Downmatt 7 Lrg with an R-Value of 5.9 for winter trips with temps down to single digit temps.

Your sleeping pad combos come out at:

Klymit: 1.3
GG Thinlight 1/8": 0.45
Neo Air Short: 2.5

TOTAL R-Value: 4.25


Personally I think that even with 'loft pockets' of the Klymit that pad combination would be too cold for me.

Bryce F.
(bster13) - MLife

Locale: Norwalk, CT
Re: Re: Winter pad setup... will it work in 0F? on 12/14/2011 13:51:06 MST Print View

Probably correct, and I also read that just adding up R values doesn't exactly pan out to a total R value. Will have to think a bit on this one.

David Olsen
(oware)

Locale: Steptoe Butte
1" closed cell foam on 12/14/2011 14:14:40 MST Print View

I have used a doubled pad system which totaled thickness is 3/4 to 1" of full length closed cell foam for winter use for years and found it fine. I tend to sleep cold too. This would have an R value of 4 according to what I have been told. If you truly have an equivalent amount of insulating power to that of an inch of closed cell foam, my experience says you will be good to go (if this R value stuff really works like that).

Edited by oware on 12/14/2011 14:22:04 MST.

Chad Miller
(chadnsc)

Locale: Duluth, Minnesota
Re: 1" closed cell foam on 12/14/2011 14:38:00 MST Print View

What temperatures where you using two 1" closed cell foam pads?

Also the type of pads you're using can have a big effect on the R-value.

Standard blue closed cell foam pads have an r-value of approximately 3.4 per inch so your system would have an r-value of 6.8.

I'm willing to bet that your r-value of two closed cell foam pads where between 5.5 and 6.8, not 4.0

Edited by chadnsc on 12/14/2011 14:39:46 MST.

David Olsen
(oware)

Locale: Steptoe Butte
pads on 12/14/2011 16:16:14 MST Print View

I see the confusion. I use two 1/2" pads, not 2 1 inch pads.

Average temps run -10 to +5 f. If it gets colder than that, its time for a snow cave.

Various pads, a pair of the 3/8" common blue foam ones the most. Current combination is one eva and one plastazote total thickness 1". Ratings for R value per manufacturer are an R factor or 4 for 1 inch.

Edited by oware on 12/14/2011 16:18:18 MST.

Chad Miller
(chadnsc)

Locale: Duluth, Minnesota
Re: pads on 12/16/2011 07:26:14 MST Print View

Ah! Thanks for clearing that up David!

All I can say is BRRRRRRR! That pad combination wouldn't work for me but then again I probably weigh a good deal more than you and compress my sleeping pad(s) more than most. ;)

Bryce F.
(bster13) - MLife

Locale: Norwalk, CT
Ok, did some testing (pics) on 12/21/2011 08:08:19 MST Print View

I tried the combo of the NeoAir Short, Klymit X Frame Inertia full length, and GG 1/8th in Thinlight pad.

I first tried (from bottom to top) the NeoAir, Thinlight, then my roomy Marmot Helium (16F), Klymit X Frame Inertia inside it, then the JRB Sierra Stealth quilt on top of the X Frame, but still inside the Marmot Helium:
242t

Here it is with me inside it:
nbr5yt

This setup left a gap in the drop off from the Klymit X Frame Inertia to the NeoAir, but the sleeping bag/quilt lofted nicely to fill most of the gap, but the gap still worries me. Other concerns: 1) there isn't much room for my size 11 feet (wearing athletic ankle socks) in there with all the other stuff crammed in there. 2) With the Klymit X Frame inside the Marmot Helium, the head enclosure is weird with the rigid mat in there. I will have a down balaclava with me for around camp and I can easily wear it, but with the pad in there it just doesn't enclose as well.

Secondly I tried (from bottom to top) the GG Thinlight 1/8th in pad, Klymit X Frame Inertia, NeoAir short:
424t

This gave my feet more room inside the bag/quilt (I also have to consider I'll have down socks on) and I think this is the setup I need to go with with for risk of uncomfy feet (lack of room and cold from compressing down near them). Only question is, should I put the GG 1/8th in pad on top of the X Frame Inertia (what I would do with a conventional inflatable pad) or below it (to allow the sleeping bag to loft into the X Frame Inertia's holes)?

Edited by bster13 on 12/28/2011 09:32:27 MST.

Gabriel Rhoads
(gkrdesigns) - M

Locale: Wasatch Range
Admission: Unrelentingly Biased Klymit RnD guy here :) on 02/29/2012 13:54:14 MST Print View

Hey folks,

I was following the conversation and wanted to chime in. As an avid backcountry snowboarder I have spent many winter nights on the Inertia X frame, which is my favorite Klymit UL pad. My sleep system for 0 degrees Fahrenheit is a Sierra Designs Vapor Zero, Gossamer Gear 1/8th, and an X Frame. I place the GG thinlite against the ground to break up any direct conduction, place the X Frame on top of that, with my sleeping bag in the classic configuration on top of the X Frame. I have found this to be the warmest configuration, using gravity to get the most of the loft pockets. For a point of reference I am 6'5", 210, and am an active side sleeper.

I also use a Klymit Cush seat/pillow in a half circle shape and zip it tight inside my head section of my mummy. By doing so I add a ton of warmth to the head section, and can sleep well on odd objects like my shoes covered by a jacket.

I have slept on the X Frame in snow buried UL shelters at -20. The only additional item that I use at those temps is an MLD Spirit 45 quilt with Event at the head and feet. Temps vary so much at elevation in the Wasatch I always have this with me.

Almost everyone is surprised by the warmth of the X Frame at extreme temperatures. Special Operations Dev Group, the product testers for the military had nothing but positive things to say after sleeping on the X Frame at -60. Well, that is not true, their bulb pump froze and cracked, so we went and sourced a lighter pump that works well below those temps. OK, now my conscience is clear. The irony is most of our customers who buy the X Frame and X lite elect not to use the pump. I know I like mine super soft, but that is the beauty of the pressure point body map: at very low levels of inflation all air pressure is focused on your body contact points.

Our pads have been used on Everest, Denali, Aconcagua, Cerro Torre, the South Pole, and in some very cold, gnarly places. Candidly, I was more than surprised at the effectiveness of the loft pockets the first time I tried the X Frame, so I understand the reticence to giving the Klymit pads a go in the winter.

I just wanted to let you know what our winter camping experiences have been. I would challenge you to form your own opinion and test the loft pocket technology in cold weather for yourselves. Either way, happy trails!!!!