I agree that people certainly have different desires for outdoor winter recreation. For example, perhaps a little snowplay in the woods close to home, a casual short outing in the backcountry, or a multi-day trip that mainly entails staying close to a basecamp.
I therefore agree that “this product should appeal to a lot of folks” since a lot of folks are interested in recreation like that. And you certainly don’t need efficient lightweight travel gear for fun like that. (Although it does exist, as witnessed by the success of rando race gear in the FORTY-mile Elk race, which is all about getting “from here to there in the winter” albeit over rather moderate terrain.) But then again, you don’t need any of the gear or info from BPL for that either.
Instead, I thought BPL was the kind of place where people as an avatar might use the Mizuno Wave Universe 4 racing shoes (which in my size on my digital postal scale weigh a mere 7.9 oz per pair). But once the snow falls, it’s all about saving money (although the Wave Universe 4 is on sale at Zappos right now!), or the winter equivalent of casual nature walks, and forget about lightweight efficient travel.
As far as a “used rando setup that's some unspecified amount lighter” I already provided the numbers that show the lightest setup in the review is about 1/3 heavier than my own not-quite-current setup, and that’s extra weight on your feet, where it counts way more than on your back. Moreover, the lightest reviewed setup has a pivot design - or rather, a lack of pivot - that is very much akin to driving with the parking brake on. (So in other words, you’re not only taking on more weight, but the efficiency penalty goes beyond the mere static nature of that weight.) And the skiing performance of the reviewed setup is horribly poor compared to rando race gear (as demonstrated on the company’s own videos).
As far as, “committing to boots that are impossible to hike in should I find myself in conditions where skiing is impossible or impractical” a stripped down F1 is better for hiking than the modified telemark boots in the review. Admittedly, although I have hiked many (many) miles at a time in my ski boots, they are certainly not optimal for hiking compared to trail runners, etc. But given that the universal binding didn’t even make the cut in this review, I won’t go into the details of how much worse a Hok + universal binding + trail runners setup would be than a rando race setup plus trail runners (or even my Mizuno Wave Universe 4 racing shoes if the non-snow travel will be relatively smooth).

I don't think its fair to criticize or generalize BPL for ignoring weight when it comes to winter activity. This is just one review. BPL does plenty of reviews of gear that is outside what most would consider to be ultralight activity. However, if there is a piece of gear that seems to fit a niche market, then it is worth reviewing. If it fits that niche market just right, than it is definitely worth saying so. A quick glance at many of the previous reviews shows plenty of gear that most of the members of this site would say is not really ultralight, but interesting enough nonetheless. Much of that gear is bought and used by ultralight folks because it fits our budget or satisfies the niche we want satisfied.

That being said, I think an article about "state of the market" ultralight winter travel would be most welcome. Perhaps you could write such an article, going into more detail about many of the things you mentioned. You can bet that cost would be an important item to mention. But as someone who has bought two (yest two) Cuben tents, it won't be the only criteria.

Most of the time I travel in the winter with very comfortable, very lightweight gear. My guess is that is lighter than Rando race gear, but I also travel with this gear when the conditions are right (no need for metal edges) and the terrain is moderate.

I've never heard of the Elk Race, but my guess is that if gave out gold medals, then maybe ski makers would make much lighter general purpose gear.

Also, I should mention that Jonathan is not the only one who is excited about Rando Race gear. A trip report quickly turned into a similar discussion here: http://www.nwhikers.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=7991770 (although it was mostly focused on the boots, rather than the skis).

Jonathan,

It is too bad this thread has gotten off track, and I have participated in that.

As I mentioned earlier, I know diddly about skiing.

I am glad you brought up the Mizuno Shoes. I know a little bit about them. If you are familiar with my posts, you would know I do a lot of hiking in XC flats. And the Wave Universe series were designed just for that, running cross country races, although they are now marketing the 4's as minimalist shoe to capitalize on the current minimalist craze. I strapped on my first pair of racing flats in 1967, so they are not new to me. XC flats are for racing in XC meets, generally 5K in high school, and 8K in college unless you run in the NCAA Regional or National finals. XC courses tend to be gentle rolling terrain. You would also know that I have hiked in several brands of XC flats the past few years, mostly Asics and Sacouny. You would also know that I do not advocate them as best or even better shoe than other options. They are just my preference and not a viable option for most people.

Now, if someone wrote an article about general use trail running shoes that would interest a broad cross section of BPL members, I would not post that you forgot XC flats or even that they are better. XC flats probably fit the need for less than 1% of the BPL membership. An article about minimal trail running shoes on BPL would probably not include XC flats; they are not designed for trail running. I might mention them as a lighter option and leave it at that. If people want more information on my experiences, I am more than willing to share them. I also have shared the negatives about cross country flats... they don't last long (very high cost per mile vs other shoes), traction is not great, no rock plate, not good in cactus country, you need to be agile, you should be carrying a very light pack, etc.

I probably have recommended Salomon Comp 3Ds more than any other shoe, because they fit me well, and would be a good all around choice for most people here if it fits them properly. I have 3 pair, each for a specific need, but probably do more hiking in flats that don't last. That is what works for me, and will not work for most people on this site.

And this is the point. Seems Dave wrote an article that would appeal to a good cross section of BPL members, and you keep pushing the benefits of a specialized and more expensive option. As I said earlier, a simple post of "you may want to also consider this, because of XYZ instead of beating it to death.

And yes I mention cost, because it is important to a lot of BPL members. I am fortunate because I have been working for over 40 years and my kids are grown and gone. So I can afford to spend more discretionary income on my hobby. Others here cannot, or have additional responsibilities that I do not have. I am very sensitive to cost for that reason.

BPL is about sharing information, knowledge, and experiences. Usually there is no right way. What works for one person many not work for the majority.

To be honest, the best thing for you to do is to let this thread run its course and let those interested in Dave's system discuss it. There does seem to be an interest by some in Rando racing. Why not start a thread on that subject, where those who are interested in it would get some real benefit. This way everyone wins.

The Hok certainly fills a niche, but a very specialized one for short-distance snowplay, not BPL’s lightweight efficient travel (for which rando race gear excels across a wide spectrum of terrain).

Now granted outdoor lightweight efficient winter travel has many niches, depending on the terrain, and also the traveler’s skills. At one extreme – or rather, entirely non-extreme terrain – where metal edges are not required, the new Skiathlon xc race boots might be ideal for backcountry applications ... perhaps paired with SNS Pilot skate bindings for extra lateral control . . . and the new Skintec classic skis. (Or would a wider model be better?)
At the other extreme, for truly extreme terrain, but combined with long approaches, then one (small) step up from rando race gear might be ideal. (Witness the recent speed record for ski mountaineering on the Grand Teton.)
For non-skiing winter travel, various “traction devices” offer interesting variations on the old instep crampons and the like for low-angle snowfield hiking. And although snowshoes are neither light nor efficient, for non-skiers, it beats postholing, so they still have their place.

Overall, the review is akin to writing about footwear for trail use yet dismissing out of hand trail runners (of which the La Sportiva Crosslite 2.0 is my current favorite, though I might consider using my Mizuno Wave Universe 4 if the terrain was very smooth and I subsequently had to carry my shoes around with me for the duration of the trip once I hit snow).

Jonathan, this isn't a SOTM article. It's a review of one product, and an excellent one at that. This is what a gear review should look like: thoughtful, honest, well-written, and the product has been used enough by the reviewer for them to be able to take a real stance on it.

Like others have said, offering some alternatives is helpful but at this point we know your stance and maybe another thread on rando gear is the best way to keep this thread on track for those that want to discuss the Hoks.

Dave,

Thanks for the review of gear I didn't know existed. Interesting stuff, especially so for beginner backcountry ski campers. Plus, as you mention, they are much more packable than regular BC skis.

My own BC ski gear is:
Atomic TM 22 tele skis (190 cm.)
Asnes Norwegian Army skis (210 cm. !!) Easier on undulating terain but hard to turn.

Both have heavy duty Voile' 3 pin bindings mounted on Voile' RELEASE binding plates
(Hey, I'm 68 and don't want broken bones in the backcountry.)

My main BC boots are low, more flexible Scarpa T3 boots. I also have old, heavy duty Vasque leather telemark boots.
And yes, as you said, snowshoes are an effort. Even my top-of-the-line MSR Lightning Ascent snowshoes are S L O W compared to the skis.

BTW, If I got the Altai skis I'd still mount my Voile' release binding plates and still use my Scarpa T3 boots unless the terrain was gentle and the trip just a day trip, in which case I'd use the Vasque leather boots, being the lighter of the two pair.

Edited by Danepacker on 12/16/2011 18:33:56 MST.

For those looking for a crampon, you could get a b and d telemark crampon (http://www.bndskigear.com/telemarkcrampons.html) or a fixed ski crampon from voile for the Hok though neither of these is designed for downhill use and don't offer as much resistance to forward travel as the teeth on an msr snowshoe.

I can definitely see the appeal of the hok from the point of view of the recreational snow shoer or the user looking to get in a few turns during a spring/summer hike without specialized footwear. I also have a ton of respect for the kind of multisport ski + bike + pac raft + hike enchainments David seems to be putting together using the hok...revolutionary stuff.

However I feel there is also a revolution going on centered around tech/rando bindings and the latest generation of compatible boots that walk and climb as well as a climbing boot, tour like an XC ski shoe and ski like a downhill boot and it is a little surprising to see David dismiss this gear so quickly. Alpine climbers are climbing hard remote routes in these boots with dynafited skis strapped to their backs and difficult ski traverses and enchainments are getting done more and more frequently by non expert skiers...I feel this gear is enabling new types of human powdered adventure like a pac raft and don't understand why he is so down on it.

From my own experience with winter travel David seems to under value the importance of fore aft stability, the predictability and repairability of pure ptex bases and the hugh safety advantage of releasable bindings. Even at conservative low speeds I have trouble envisioning such short skis eliminating all of these issues and keeping me stable with a pack in variable snow under tree cover, or on logging roads covered with refrozen snowmobile tracks or in heavy grabby snow... perhaps a decent ski crampon that let one walk downhill would help but 135 is pretty long to be side stepping with.

These things would be less of an issue if one could be ensured of consistent untracked snow for miles and miles and perhaps that is the case in the rockies but it is not my experience in the cascades.

A few mustache free, bushwhack heavy, non racing rando gear shots:

Edited by ryanbressler on 12/16/2011 11:07:51 MST.

Ryan, thanks for the broader perspective. I like the concepts rando seems to be pushing forward. It just doesn't fit my budget or the kind of trips I'm doing for the foreseeable future. I appreciate Dave's extensive testing with the Hok and am excited to try mine when they come. Even if I move on to "real" skis at some point, I still see where the Hoks could stay on as snowshoe replacements if they perform as expected.

A lot of discussion with a lot of terminology I don't even know. One thing I'm curious about is how friendly these various setups are to cautious beginners (someone who knows how to cross country ski in easy terrain, but nothing more). I snowshoe a lot, and my backyard is exactly the place that makes me curious for something like this - steep, wooded, snow-covered for 6 months per year. But conditions are often icy, snow is variable, and the hills are quite steep. When my husband has used the Karhu Karvers (and I'm in snowshoes alongside him), it seems like the extensive switchbacking required to go up the hills cancels out the speed advantage coming down. Though it might not if the skier was more skilled?

Is there a ski setup that has an advantage over snowshoes for someone who isn't a ski expert?

To add a little to Nick's nicely stated and dispassionate response ...

Rather than just starting a thread about using rando gear in the backcountry Jonathan might also care to write a 4000-5000 word article including a dozen or so photos showing details of rando gear and their back country use.

Regarding topics addressing what fewer than 1% of BPL readers do ... I recall two articles about climbing Denali in UL style (well, really light anyway), several about the Alaskan Wilderness Classic and one about packrafting the Grand Canyon. I seriously doubt that 1% of us will be doing those (but kudos to those that do.)

I'm still very much a beginner in terms of skiing as I've only got into it seriously in the last few years mostly as a way to access the mountains in winter, tele turning (the kneeling turn used by the skiers in the hok videos) is harder to learn and much harder to master then the fixed heel alpine turn. Tele turns are fun, beautiful and soulful and keep you in touch with the snow...I've spent days lapping small powder filled clear cuts on karhu guides and light plastic and leather boots and it is an absolute blast but when the snow gets tricky or the steep I often trip up and face plant or catch a tip and tweak a knee. Shorter fatter skis might help this to some extent but I would also worry about going over the handlebars on them more...I end up survival skiing a lot (traversing back and forth across the slope and kick turning) which can be imposible in tight trees.

In comparison, after a couple of seasons on AT gear (and 3 days lift skiing in my life) I can confidently pick my way down the fall line weird refrozen black diamond terrain in heavy fog, make tight turns through steep tight trees and blast out chunky snowmobile tracked logging roads by moonlight relying on the stiffness of the skis and boots to absorb even the things I don't see or have time to react too and If I do crash my skis come off my feet instead of blowing out my acl. I'm not doing long multi sport trips like dave and I can definitely see the draw of a shorter ski and multipurpose footwear for that...

Dave equates the Hok's to a hardtail mountain bike and I can see that being an apt description in terms of the terrain one can access for that. For me AT skis are something more, in mountain bike terms it is as if all of a sudden the entire brushy and rugged cascade mountain range is covered in moderate bike trails and slick rock and I can go wherever I want. The gear is more expensive but it is worth it if you use it often...

(Note: I use the term AT or alpine touring interchangeably with the french term rando or randonee. Both of these terms refer to skiing with bindings that have a tour mode and a heel locked down ski mode.

One intriguing option not yet mentioned but often employed by climbers is using one of the silveretta or similar AT bindings with a crampon compatible climbing boot and rope from the knee of the skier to the tip of the ski to provide additional stiffness. This with the longer hok might be a great approach setup but I like the stiffness of a real ski boot...)

Sometimes leaving skins on can slow your descent to get through tight and icy spots.
Use rope climbers and you can turn your skis into snow shoes.

Ryan, I am not dismissing AT gear. Its advantages are extensively documented, and easy to research. I do think that for a wide variety of wooded, nordic terrain other gear will serve most better. Unfortunately my self-indulgent responses early on here only served to obfuscate that.

As Eric's response highlights, prospective skiers will need to match equipment to terrain. I see no benefit in pretending that one article could be any sort of reasonable guide for that, so I didn't even attempt it.

Erin, the question of whether skis might work better than snowshoes for you depends on a lot of factors, some having to do with terrain, some with your personal preferences and ambitions. From what little I know of the Kenai, snowshoes might be the best tool for non-alpine stuff. Very steep, short hills and thick brush tend to favor snowshoes, though for me short, fat skis like the Hoks are the next best thing.

I'd also like to highlight that rando race skis are so light for two reasons: hi-tech construction and dimensions. Top of the line race skis have waists below 70mm and tips skinnier than the waist of the Hoks. Comparing the two is thus rather problematic. I do have some K2s with dimensions almost identical to something like the Dynafit DNA, albeit 10 oz per ski heavier. They're great for firm spring and resort snow, but under other circumstances I prefer to stack the deck more in my favor. A cool fixed heel bushwacking setup might be had by putting some Speed Superlights on the 154 Voile Chargers, though then you're looking at 1300 grams a ski unmounted.

More snow travel articles here would only be a good thing. As the seasonal surge in questions on winter travel shows, the demand exists.

Well, this discussion has certainly wandered around. Which, if you think about it, is pretty apropos, since that is one of the things these types of skis are well suited to.
I think that here we have some differences of opinion that are partially rooted in points of view. If you think like a skier, then anyplace you'd want to ski, anyplace where the skiing would be enjoyable, would be a place where AT or Rando race gear would be more efficient and more effective than ski-shoes. But if you're not thinking like a skier, but instead you just have some spots in mind that you'd like to visit when the ground is snow-covered, spots that may be in thick woods, or brushy, with lots of short, steep ups and downs, then a ski-shoe might just be the ticket. those places are no fun to ski - trust me, I've tried it. And no one would go there for the skiing.
As a backpacker who happens to travel on skis in the winter and spring, I've thrashed around the woods on various skis for many years. I've also spent a fair amount of time in more alpine regions on skis - skied across the Sierra last spring - and yet I hardly think of myself as a skier, since that isn't why I go. I go to see the sights, and to experience the mountains in a different way than I can in the summer. I can definitely see the advantages of AT type gear for the long tours I do in more open terrain. If only I could afford any new skis now. But for thrashing in the woods, I'd take these in a heartbeat. That totally free pivot is great for going up a long climb, and maybe even for a flat kick and glide, but when it's a few sidesteps, and then a 10 foot downhill to a stop, followed by a traversing sidestep and a few choice cusswords, then that in-between sort of connection to the ski that you have with a 3-pin or an NNN-BC binding really comes into it's own.
With dynafits, if you have the heel unlocked and you lift the ski off the snow for a weird sidestep maneuever, the tail of the skis drops down, making it hard to do that kind of thing. And if you lock in the heels, then it's hard in another way. So for that kind of thing, it's just not the tool for the job.
Yes, these are a niche product. But the niche is not just fooling around in the backyard. There are indeed multi-day trips for which I think these would be the most efficient option - it's just that those conditions are such that a lot of people would never want to go there, and thus might not consider that sort of trip in their assessment of these types of skis.
And of course, there is another niche, and that is for the snowshoer who wants a little more speed but not too much. Probably a much larger niche than the multi-day bushwhacking niche.

I can't wait to try these, especially as I have done a fair amount of nordic-type skiing on a low-end Rando Race setup (BD Cult skis, Speed bindings, TLT5 Mountains). But something about the idea of these ski-like objects was very attractive to me, especially for local summer hiking trails where having something slower than skis would be an advantage for a bad skier like myself (skill level seems to influence equipment choices in skiing more than many other sports).

So maybe I'll mount some Dynafit bindings on the Hoks and use 'em with my TLT5 boots.

Jonathan, here's even more evidence that my telemark past has addled my brain ;)

Dave

Just pulled out the scale; the Hoks + 3pin binding + Scarpa T3 is about 50g lighter than my Rando setup (157cm BD Cult, Dynafit Speed, TLT5 Mountain). So essentially no difference.

Exactly: you can (and you indeed deed) assemble a reasonably light ski mountaineering setup on the cheap, that will perform reasonably well across the entire spectrum of moderate-angle touring, the occasional rando race, and even the most extreme ski mountaineering that one dares engage in.
Or spend more on rando race gear to drop additional pounds of weight while still retaining the performance (on the up, on the down, and in between).
Or save some bucks and get a backyard snowtime plaything that, while undoubtedly fun at its intended purpose, is very ill-suited for actual wilderness travel (given both its shape and the driving-with-the-parking-brake-on intended binding) as well as any higher-angle skiing.

Man, give up on repeating yourself and just admit this is grudgewank already.

For those thinking about mounting alternate bindings on the Hoks, be sure to inquire with the company first. I'm not sure there's enough reinforcing material for something like a dynafit heel piece.

Now granted outdoor lightweight efficient winter travel has many niches, depending on the terrain, and also the traveler’s skills. At one extreme – or rather, entirely non-extreme terrain – where metal edges are not required, the new Skiathlon xc race boots might be ideal for backcountry applications ... perhaps paired with SNS Pilot skate bindings for extra lateral control . . . and the new Skintec classic skis. (Or would a wider model be better?)

I agree. Personally, I'm a big fan of regular cross country boots and bindings combined with skis that have the most sidecut in their class. Their class being skis that don't have metal edges. I know these are heavier than skis meant for the tracks, but they perform much better in the backcountry. As long as the conditions are good and the terrain isn't that steep, I can go lots of places. I often take such gear in places where I have the flimsiest gear by a long shot. No matter, if the snow is good, and the terrain is not too steep and narrow (steep and wide can simply be traversed). If I was a better skier, then I would stretch the envelope even more. The trickiest part of the process is matching the gear to the conditions. If it is crustier than I expect, I fall down a lot.

I would really like to see the numbers on the Rando Race gear. I was serious before, and now Jim has suggested it as well: A state of the market report for Rando Race Gear (or similar gear) would be great. Even something just laying out specs of example gear and approaches would be nice (not as exhaustive as a SOTM article, but of the same nature). I enjoy the comments, but they are no substitute for a real article. I know some of the prices will raise some eyebrows, but so be it. We are all used to it, and make those sort of trade-offs every day (e. g. $450 for Cuben or $200 for Silnylon).

As an example, I wrote a little spreadsheet of my gear. It may be hard to read (it makes sense to me) but, for example, I have 1742 grams on each foot (boot, binding and ski) with my typical gear. I have less if I'm exclusively on a groomed track, but not that much less. I'm sure I could slash some weight by going with a lighter boot, but probably not that much. On the other hand, I don't really know, as I'm quite happy with my boot (it is very comfortable).

Edited by rossbleakney on 12/19/2011 19:02:21 MST.