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My Paleo
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Doug I.
(idester) - MLife

Locale: MidAtlantic
Re: Re: Re: Re: Keep it up Doug! on 01/05/2012 19:43:02 MST Print View

"Want to lose weight? Reduce your caloric intake. Period."

You're right, of course, for most people (including me), David. But I do think there's more to it than that, since losing weight isn't the only goal. Having a better level of fitness is, which is more than just losing weight. So increasing exercise is a necessary part of my path to better fitness.

And, besides, back to reducing caloric intake, eating healthy is actually an easy way to reduce caloric intake. Paleo and Primal and others are really just blueprints to eating healthier foods. I'm one of those folks who does much better with a 'blueprint' when trying to better my fitness. It doesn't matter that I know how to eat healthy, I know how to exercise, I know what's good for me. I'm wired in such a way that having a 'program' to follow helps me immensely, so I'm quite happy that there are programs - that make sense (to me) and are backed by science - to assist me in my journey.

And Miguel, Karl, Ike, Brian and others, your encouragement helps immensely as well. I truly appreciate the kind words.

Karl Myers
(kmyers1234) - F

Locale: Pacific Northwest
re: on 01/05/2012 19:46:51 MST Print View

David,
What you're saying IS correct the calories in vs calories out is a tried and true method of losing weight. Thats the beauty of nutrition is dieting that there are more than one way to approach the daunting task of dropping weight. The difference between simply burning more cals than you're intaking and such a diet as the paleo or primal is that it is a lifestyle change more than simply a diet. Yes if you have 2000 calories of twinkies a day and are burning 3000 then yes you will lose weight, the idea behind the paleo or primal is not simply just losing weight its increasing the longevity of ones life, and creating healthy habits. A person on the twinkie diet may lose more weight as someone taking in more calories on a primal or paleo diet but will that person live longer than one that takes on a dramatic lifestyle change such as a paleo or primal? Most likely not.

Doug may have started out with the goal of simply losing weight but he and others taking part in such a change are truly taking steps to live longer, healthier lives. There is evidence to support every diet out there, as well as there is critics and counter-evidence for every diet. It just comes down to simply, "does the story make sense to you? is there evidence that supports it? and most importantly IS IT WORKING FOR YOU? Thats the beauty of it, what works for one person may not work for another its an adventure to find a diet or lifestyle that works for you, but when you do theres nothing but happy trails ahead of you. Keep the faith Doug!
Happy Trails to ALL,
-Karl

Craig W.
(xnomanx) - F - M
Calories in, Calories out on 01/05/2012 20:26:37 MST Print View

Yes...
BUT

Compare how you'd feel after eating your third 200 calorie salmon steak with how you feel after your third slice of 200 calorie pizza. Eating a fourth piece of salmon would probably be tough. Eating a fourth slice of pizza...most people are just getting warmed up. I've seen my 10 year old son eat three slices of pizza in a row and say he's hungry 20 minutes later. All calories consumed being equal, that doesn't happen to him (or me) after a second serving of chicken breast and helping of salad and veggies...

There's a good deal of evidence (and I've personally experienced it) that protein and fat satiate the appetite far better and LONGER than refined carbs and sugars. It goes back to blood sugar and insulin; high carb/sugar foods cause a spike, protein/fat doesn't. If you can get off the blood sugar/insulin roller coaster, you'll often find your appetite is far more stable and easier to control. This, in a nutshell, is why so many people find it's so easy to maintain weight loss on "paleo" style diets. Plenty of nutrients, plenty of satisfying foods, feeling full after meals without restricting yourself, and fewer cravings and energy level fluctuations.

Good on you Doug, keep it up.

Edited by xnomanx on 01/05/2012 20:29:59 MST.

Dave U
(FamilyGuy) - F

Locale: Rockies
Re: Re: Keep it up Doug! on 01/05/2012 21:18:10 MST Print View

I did not mean to negate the Paleo diet but the basics of weight loss are really quite simple. I am in no way endorsing the twinkie diet but I do believe it brought the process of losing weight to its most basic and sobering reality.

Do you remember that Seinfeld episode where they are all eating fat free yogurt but keep getting heavier because they were eating so much of it? Funny stuff.

Miquel - I agree with everything you say and the fast food nation doesn't help things. Your situation is very specific, however, and you must watch very closely the sugars that enter you body - I don't pretend to understand the requirements of your condition. I was more referring to Doug's chocolate fixation.....; )

Joe Clement
(skinewmexico) - MLife

Locale: Southwest
My Paleo on 01/05/2012 21:24:37 MST Print View

Salmon for breakfast. That's the most disgusting thing I've ever heard of. I think I'd rather lick an ashtray!

Doug I.
(idester) - MLife

Locale: MidAtlantic
Re: My Paleo on 01/05/2012 21:30:08 MST Print View

Ah Joe, but I had bison steak for breakfast today.....

Dave U
(FamilyGuy) - F

Locale: Rockies
Re: Re: My Paleo on 01/05/2012 21:34:53 MST Print View

What? No Turducken?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turducken

Max Paleo.

Yo.

Miguel Arboleda
(butuki) - MLife

Locale: Kanto Plain, Japan
Re: Keep it up Doug! on 01/05/2012 21:46:13 MST Print View

David, aside from the complications that diabetes can cause, I think your understanding of the basic problems that cause diabetes are completely sound. It really isn't all that complicated, as you say. It's basically the bad food and how much of it we eat, plus the lack of exercise. Diabetes is actually nothing more than the extreme end of the spectrum of metabolic syndrome, the main cause of obesity. Obesity and diabetes are extremely closely related. Because of the amount of carbs people eat... higher than at any other time in history... diabetes is going through the roof. You could almost say... and many people are now referring to it that way... that diabetes and obesity are diseases of carb intolerance. It's like alcoholism. Too much of a single substance. Most obese people are either insulin resistant or mildly diabetic. Diabetes is part of a spectrum. There is no black and white switch to becoming diabetic. It is all about the amount of BG's in your blood and whether your pancreas is healthy enough to deal with what comes in.

I think if more people understood the requirements and mechanism for a healthy diet, especially how insulin works, and lifestyle and understood that diabetes is an increasingly common (it's epidemic) outcome of living an unhealthy lifestyle, the diabetes epidemic would quickly diminish.

Doug is turning chocolate, I think. Milk chocolate, if I'm not mistaken! ;-)

Edited by butuki on 01/05/2012 21:47:08 MST.

Brian UL
(MAYNARD76)

Locale: New England
Calories in/out sillyness on 01/06/2012 03:59:14 MST Print View

We know that obese people eat more calories than they expend- it is an irifutable fact. The question is what is the cause?
Saying "they eat more calories than they expend,calories in,calories out" - is just restating the problem in different terms! It does not address why!

Again.....
What cause someone to eat more calories than they expend?

Doctor/media/government: they take in more calories than they expend, you know "energy balance".

What? No! No! No! What is the cause!?

Do we see the madness?

Edited by MAYNARD76 on 01/06/2012 04:00:53 MST.

Doug I.
(idester) - MLife

Locale: MidAtlantic
Re: Re: Keep it up Doug! on 01/06/2012 06:50:55 MST Print View

"Doug is turning chocolate, I think. Milk chocolate, if I'm not mistaken! ;-)"

Oh no, I'm definitely a dark chocolate kinda guy! 70 percent is my fav at the moment.

Chris W
(simplespirit) - MLife

Locale: .
Re: Calories in/out sillyness on 01/06/2012 07:01:59 MST Print View

IMO, education or lack there of. It's commonly known that we (speaking generally) underestimate the caloric content of food.

A really big problem is chain restaurants.

Ex.

You go to O'Charleys and get the Pecan Chicken Tender Salad. You're thinking, "hey, it's a salad, it MUST be healthy". Yeah, if 1020 cals BEFORE any dressing is considered low calorie these days. A Big Mac and order of medium fries from McDonald's would save you 100 cals.

Another problem is overestimating the caloric expenditure of exercise.

Say I'm a 180 lb man. If I walk (20 min miles or 3mph) for an hour, I will burn (roughly) 300 cals. Look....I just burned off (almost) 1/3 of lunch. But wait, I forgot that I would've burned 100 (roughly) cals sitting my (lazy) rear on the sofa watching reruns, so I only really burned 200 cals (as a result of the walk vs sitting).

Edited by simplespirit on 01/06/2012 07:10:02 MST.

Laurie Ann March
(Laurie_Ann) - F

Locale: Ontario, Canada
Dark Chocolate on 01/06/2012 17:48:00 MST Print View

Douglas... if you can get your hands on a Lindt Dark Blackcurrant bar or a Lindt Dark Chili Pepper bar... I'm telling you, heavenly. I'd mail you a couple but to be honest I don't know if they'd get past Bryan to the postman... lol.

Dave U
(FamilyGuy) - F

Locale: Rockies
Re: Re: Calories in/out sillyness on 01/06/2012 18:24:36 MST Print View

"Another problem is overestimating the caloric expenditure of exercise."

Indeed. From a time perspective, exercise can be pretty inefficient for losing weight. Cutting back calories is easier. I know not for some, but even for those people it would be easier than exercising!

Brian, I think it is advertising of fast, convenient foods combined with early poor eating habits among children spinkled with a lot of extremely busy lives. Easy is easy and there is nothing more easy than grabbing the kids and heading to the drive thru.

I forgot about the dreaded slowing metabolism as one ages. It really sucks.

I do think that more people should strength train - it adds muscle and increases the baseline metabolic rate so that one can burn more calories while posting to BPL.

Brian UL
(MAYNARD76)

Locale: New England
Re: Re: Calories in/out sillyness on 01/06/2012 18:35:30 MST Print View

"IMO, education or lack there of. It's commonly known that we (speaking generally) underestimate the caloric content of food."

Surely you don't believe that the obesity epidemic is caused by a sudden lack of calorie counting by the population starting in the 1970's?

Posting the nutrition info and calorie counts on food was a response to the obesity epidemic. Its completely new and novel that any of us know how many calories are in anything. That was very specialized knowledge not too long ago.
Yet, obesity was uncommon before nutrition labels or any labels of any kind.

BUT, in the 1970's we saw the introduction of canola oil and high fructose corn syrup ( " HFCS was rapidly introduced to many processed foods and soft drinks in the U.S. from about 1975 to 1985". from Wiki ) .Corn oil, soy oil, and a laundry list of chemicals where suddenly added to the food supply. Also, under the Nixon admin. small family farms where replaced with large monopoly's who use industrial farming techniques, GMO crops, and large scale chemical use. Our grocers went from selling local fresh vegetables and meats to large warehouses that sell every conceivable combination of industrial oils and subsidized corn/wheat/soy/sugars in bright colored packaging full of printed marketing copy and cartoons.
Instead of educating people on avoiding these harmful "food stuffs" to improve health and reverse disease society says " eat them in moderation" or "count your calories".

You don't need to count calories when your metabolism is working properly because you are eating real food. Your body will tell you when it is full (satiation) and you will feel the desire to be active when you need to burn off calories.
Obesity is when your metabolism doesn't work properly. It is caused by eating harmful damaging processed food. THAT is what causes some one to take in more calories than they expend!!
If you don't get satiated you will over eat. If your body hordes calories you will not have energy and feel tired.
These are the symptoms of obesity! Their metabolism is broken. They are beyond calorie counting. Cut their calories and the body will preserve calories by making them tired and inactive not to mention HUNGRY as all hell.
this is why calorie restriction is a failure in the long run. It is not addressing the problem.
end of rant. Yes Im bored...

Chris W
(simplespirit) - MLife

Locale: .
Re: Re: Re: Calories in/out sillyness on 01/06/2012 18:51:27 MST Print View

That's all good info Bryan, but my personal experience with significant weight gain and subsequent significant loss disagrees. I was at 5'8 and 210 lbs and lost ~40 lbs solely by cutting calories. I didn't significantly change my diet to one of a more whole and overall healthy makeup until I had already lost 50 lbs. Even still, I indulge in "bad" food, just less frequently. Yet, somehow, I maintain a lean build and a (measured) 6-7% bodyfat and have been there for going on 2 years now. I have enough experience with food and fitness to know what works.

Cut their calories and the body will preserve calories by making them tired and inactive not to mention HUNGRY as all hell.

That's a gross overstatement. If you cut calories too far, beyond what's minimally required, then yes, your body will go in to starvation mode.

At my worst, I estimate I was eating 5000 cals a day and completely inactive. I dropped to 2000 cals a day when I made up my mind to lose weight. Was I hungry? Sure, for maybe a week until my body adjusted. I did not gain weight, my body didn't preserve calories, and I didn't feel tired.


Me @ 200+


Me @ 175ish after nothing but cutting calories


Me these days after adding back in some exercise

Edited by simplespirit on 01/06/2012 18:57:25 MST.

Miguel Arboleda
(butuki) - MLife

Locale: Kanto Plain, Japan
Re: Calories in/out sillyness on 01/06/2012 18:52:23 MST Print View

this is why calorie restriction is a failure in the long run. It is not addressing the problem.
end of rant. Yes Im bored...


Brian, I think you shouldn't apologize for getting serious about this issue. Obesity around the world, but most especially in the States, is an extremely serious problem in the world today, something our species has never faced before. The accepted mantra is that people are eating more now than they ever have before. While this is probably partly true, there is a limit to how much people can eat, and I don't think people today eat that much more than people in the past, before the obesity epidemic. Something has changed in the food... as you say, in the modern processing of food. The amount of sugar (high fructose corn syrup, sucrose, and other carbs, especially wheat) that has become part of our daily diet is astounding, but a lot of it isn't obvious, until you actually take the time to examine the labels as you go shopping. When you go primal or paleo or low-carb suddenly you're faced with this invisible onslaught, and many people are shocked by what we take for granted. Go to any convenience store and see how many items that contain no or very little (less than 7 g of carbs per 100 g portion) carbs you can get. Here in Japan there is almost no food available to me when I rely on the convenience stores or fast food stores. It can be pretty distressing when you're hungry!

Miguel Arboleda
(butuki) - MLife

Locale: Kanto Plain, Japan
Re: Calories in/out sillyness on 01/06/2012 19:01:36 MST Print View

At my worst, I estimate I was eating 5000 cals a day and completely inactive. I dropped to 2000 cals a day when I made up my mind to lose weight. Was I hungry? Sure, for maybe a week until my body adjusted. I did not gain weight, my body didn't preserve calories, and I didn't feel tired.

Hold on, Chris, Brian was referring to obese people, not people with "healthy metabolisms". Obese people definitely have a problem with satiety. That's why they're obese! One method used by bariatric physicians is to staple the stomach shut into a smaller volume so that the patient doesn't feel so hungry all the time. I don't think your analogy fits with the discussion because obviously your system is working fine. You're not obese, and I take it you never have been (I'm assuming that "overweight" is not the same as "obese").

edit: Perhaps I should take this statement back, now that you've added the photos. Hmm. Something to learn here.

Edited by butuki on 01/06/2012 19:02:51 MST.

Chris W
(simplespirit) - MLife

Locale: .
Re: Calories in/out sillyness on 01/06/2012 19:02:55 MST Print View

I agree what we eat today is far more processed than what previous generations ate. I don't agree they necessarily ate less carbs or even less sugar. I have quite a few Native American/American Indian recipes that significantly predate refined sugar. However, they do call for a healthy dose of honey.

The equation isn't entirely about food. As a species, we're also significantly less active than our more agricultural ancestors.

Edit: I was definitely qualified to be "obese". Probably morbidly by modern standards. Depression, inactivity, and heavily overeating and I was almost twice the person I am today. :-)

I will add that these days I'm 99% vegetarian and have found that my digestive system is much happier than when I consistently ate meat. I had a lot of problems with infrequent BMs and intestinal pains. I still eat eggs, fish, and dairy (mostly just cheese and butter) so that narrows my personal issue down to land animal flesh. It could be one specific type of meat, or it could be meat in general...I can't say on that. The reality is, we are all different and don't process everything the same.

Edited by simplespirit on 01/06/2012 19:09:06 MST.

Brian UL
(MAYNARD76)

Locale: New England
Re: Re: Re: Re: Calories in/out sillyness on 01/06/2012 19:04:05 MST Print View

I was also 210 and went down 162 when I leaned out for sports. I lost all that weight in one summer and fall - I did not count a single calorie.

"That's a gross overstatement. If you cut calories too far, beyond what's minimally required, then yes, your body will go in to starvation mode."

How so? Rats are known to shrink their organs to preserve their fat when their hormones are messed with. Obese people are known to have low energy and to not know when to stop eating. In our barbaric times some people chalk it up to being lazy and a glutton.
But they are confusing the symptoms with the cause.

I bet that if you look at what you eat you probably eat mostly whole foods. I never said you had to be "perfect" you certainly can eat garbage every once in a while but you can not base your diet on it!

Miguel Arboleda
(butuki) - MLife

Locale: Kanto Plain, Japan
Re: Calories in/out sillyness on 01/06/2012 19:06:22 MST Print View

However, they do call for a healthy dose of honey.

Have you ever tried to go out and look for wild honeybee hives? It is an extremely difficult task. There are not many hives around, and certainly not enough to regularly feed a family of Native Americans. I'm certain that the recipes that you have are modern iterations of the traditional dishes after honey became an easy-to-obtain item. Before that honey was most definitely a rare and treasured treat.