Hi all,

Just starting to get out in the Presidentials and Adirondacks again (after a 15 year hiatus), and I'm wondering how well equipped I'll be with my 0F Lithium. I'm usually an average-to-warm sleeper; I'm comfy in my 30F Hydrogen at ~30F with a Neoair short and a ULA Ohm/synthetic vest under my legs, but have been chilly a couple nights when temps dipped to 18F even with the addition of a no-name 3/16" reflective foam pad. I wear Cap 1 tops and bottoms and a lightweight beanie.

I have the Lithium already and I'd obviously prefer not to invest in a new bag that I don't need, but how prepared am I really for a winter in these mountains? Most people I've spoken with think a -20F bag is required, but these folks aren't of the lightweight mindset. :-)

Just hoping to get some good sound advice from the folks that call these mountains home.

Thanks,
Emmett

Edited by ejl10 on 12/01/2011 19:02:09 MST.

Can't speak directly to NE winters, but I own a Lithium and have had it at and below 0 w/o any issue. I find Marmots ratings very, very close (I owned an Atom and currently own a Helium, Hydrogen and Lithium). You do need adequate insulation underneath (if expecting temps near 0 I'd shoot for a minimum of 5 clo), without it you can quickly shot the ratings in the foot-much more in the winter than summer. With "normal" winter fare- puffy top, balaclava, insulated pants you can push the Lithium another 10-15 degrees. Add to this list down booties- w/ shells you have great around camp wear and if it's cold they really help in the sleeping bag.

You might buy a mummy-shaped shaped quilt and sew about 6 matching snaps on it and your Lithium. That way you'd have a top which would keep you a lot warmewr.

I've done this with an old down top that used to zip on an open cell foam mattress. The zippers were removed from the old top and snaps sewn on my WM Megalite and the old down top. It really improved the warmth.

P.S. Also you could buy a used down bag and just use the top by cutting off the bottom (AFTER double stitching above and below where you will cut).

Edited by Danepacker on 12/01/2011 22:02:04 MST.

Maybe its an old bag? Better ground insulation otherwise. Your neoair isn't all that great of insulation as it creates air currents.

Your 3/16" foam then compresses to next to nothing. Is it closed cell? If not then its probably next to ... well nothing.

A 30 degree bag combined with a REAL ground insulation thermal mat will be warmer than a 0 degree "winter" bag. You will be more comfortable as well.

2 Options, well 3 really. Closed Cell foam trimmed to your shape. Possibly doubled up for added thickness in the torso. Closed Cell full length with air mattress half length. 3rd option is most expensive, but best for thermal insulation/weight. Air matress filled with down.

There is no free lunch. Sorry.

Maybe you are not in as good of shape as you used to be and therefore need better insulation when resting. I have noticed this as I have gone in and out of shape.

Edited by footeab on 12/01/2011 23:35:38 MST.

Thanks for all the insights! I probably shouldn't have mentioned my Hydrogen - it's been good to me even down to (unanticipated) 18F with weak ground insulation, and I have no complaints.

Really what I'm asking is whether or not a Lithium is appropriate for an average-to-warm sleeper in the Presidentials and Adirondacks during winter conditions. I'll use appropriate ground insulation in the cooler weather, but I want to know if I should also set aside money for a warmer bag. Thoughts?

Thanks!

A point of reference may be mildly useful... The Adirondack Mountain Club runs a winter "mountaineering" school every winter. Its gear requirements call for bags rated to -20F. One of the reasons for this, no doubt, is that the course has fixed dates and such a rating is deliberately conservative to deal with both the worst possible conditions and the fact that some course participants are inexperienced.

That said, you have the advantage of the NOAA, TWC, and other weather forecast information. So you can avoid worst case situations and go out in conditions that your gear supports. IMHO a genuine 0 degree bag, proper layering, and good ground insulation should do the trick nicely 90% of the time when out for a long weekend in cold and dry conditions with suitable shelter. And, of course, there are VBLs, whose afficianados can be expected to post replies!

Of course, the best thing is for you to go out there and answer your own question with the Lithium (and a warmer pad system since you know what you have is inadequate).

Edited by sgaioni on 12/02/2011 05:34:24 MST.

EL: "Really what I'm asking is whether or not a Lithium is appropriate for an average-to-warm sleeper in the Presidentials and Adirondacks during winter conditions."
NO!

SG: "The Adirondack Mountain Club runs a winter "mountaineering" school every winter. Its gear requirements call for bags rated to -20F. ... such a rating is deliberately conservative to deal with both the worst possible conditions."

Worst possible conditions in the ADK or NH would be -50F (NY record -52F, NH record -47F). Saranac Lake in the ADK reached -36F last January.
http://www.wunderground.com/history/airport/KSLK/2011/1/2/MonthlyHistory.html?req_city=NA&req_state=NA&req_statename=NA

In the 60s and 70s when my parents were in the Catskills, -20F was common and -30F happened a couple times a winter and the ADK was colder than that. Climate change has really happened, but I would guess that -20F is still not unusual in the ADK. Check the weather histories on wunderground.com and decide what your risk tolerance is.

If you avoid cold spells sleeping gear still needs to be good for -20F. Either get a warmer bag, add an overbag or wait till spring. If you have enough space inside your 0F bag, maybe additional layers would bring you to a -20F rating (and maybe not).

Edited by Snowleopard on 12/02/2011 12:54:33 MST.

I was raised and went to school in Upstate...and can also attest that it can get brutally cold. That said, I think it's academically interesting but not terribly practical to overemphasize extreme conditions when assessing the suitability of gear for recreational use.

Odd my that my post was selectively quoted in what appears as an effort to be the "smartest guy in the room". Note my caveat..."a genuine 0 degree bag, proper layering, and good ground insulation should do the trick nicely 90% of the time."

I stand by my assertion that weather forecasts are useful. Take the gear available, assess all the information available, and make a good individual decision.

Since it's the winter I imagine you will have an insulated jacket with you, which can be worn if the temps get too low (just make sure you have room in your bag so you don't compress the insulation). From what I can gather I think your bag will be fine. Definitely beef up your ground insulation -- what you listed wouldn't cut it for me. Personally, I would also think about a warmer pant baselayer and some booties or extra thick socks.

This summer I got a FF snowbunting bag (rated to 0 degrees) which I will be using this winter in New England. See you out there!

0F can be considered a warm night in the Presidentials in the winter. I've personally been out at -13F, and -25F to -30F is hardly uncommon. Also, *where* in the Presidentials are you talking about, or better yet, how high are you going? The weather at the top of a ridgeline, let alone Mt. Washington, is much colder than lower in the valleys.

You could stretch a 0F bag to -20F with extra gear, but I'd be careful about always depending on it, as you could easily encounter much colder weather than you expected. That's what I'd use the down clothing for. Also, your bag has to be roomy enough to allow your down gear to loft, otherwise you'll compress its loft. A good -20F bag is probably good insurance.

It helps to check the weather forecast before you go out. I use the forecast for Mt. Washington as a guide for worst case scenario.

Also, the insulation you have underneath you is at least as important as what's on top of you. Double pad if necessary, or use a good down pad like an Exped.

I was there! haha.

https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.584187182216.2110903.17506531&type=1&l=3ccabec616

My buddy lives in Lake Clear, NY and let my buddy down here (nutso hammock camper :o) and I know in advance, so we drove up there just for one night of hell.

I took my poncho tarp and my -25F Puma bag:
http://www.backcountry.com/western-mountaineering-puma-mf-sleeping-bag-25-degree-down

I think on average, this is what my friends and I plan for based off looking at historical data:

Catskills:
Down to zero degrees low in Catskills, usually around freezing give or take for a high temp during the day.

ADKs (Near Saranac Lake):

Average high during day 20F-32F, no higher. Plan for down to -15F in dead of night. Have seen the -30F+ on that one specific night, a -17F night (still decently rare), -9F and -6F as I recall on previous President's day long wknd trips.

As I transition to backpacking in the winter ( I tend to stay off big mtns in winter and snowshoe), not just car camping, I am going to shoot for a ~0F bag, then add hot water bottle, down booties, VBL, extra clothing etc. to go lower if called for.

No. It simply is not enough.

You would like at least another 2" of loft, chances are, even an overfill or several won't work.

As Bryce says, -17F is not uncommon at night. -25F is relatively uncommon, and -30F only happens for a couple days per year. Lower is getting more statistical. Especially in Saranac... But some of the outlying areas can be as bad or worse. Fish Creek Ponds, St Regis, Paul Smiths, etc. get about as cold. Lake Placid seems to be a bit warmer, but typically the majority of the High Peaks tends to be as cold or colder. The -20F recomendation by the ADK club is what to PLAN on. Trust me, you will be cold with a 0F bag. I consider a Marmot, UL SS down hugger 0 to be a December or March bag, NOT a January/Febuary bag unless conditions are *just* right. I think the aborted attempt at the "http://www.theinitiativesite.com/" outlining one hikers attempt to traverse NY with a 0F Montbell SS Hugger 0 was not a lot of fun. Nor did he experience anything like the cold weather in the ADK's, or the Presidentials. He took a southern route...MUCH warmer and still called home for a second bag! Read his stuff carefully before trying it with a 0F bag.

Perhaps with a full down snow suite and good padding beneith you, it could be done. Depending on conditions you *might* get away with it. But I would echo the Mountain Club's recommendations. Even then it could get a bit dicey...