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2012 R2R2R Group - Training Log's
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Adan Lopez
(Lopez) - F

Locale: San Gabriel Valley
Dog Canyon on 02/29/2012 14:18:32 MST Print View

Eugene,
Dog Canyon looks amazing, have a good run man. I've been spending quite alot of time up high lately, climbing many of my local peaks and all. But those pics of Creosote, Ocotillo and Yucca in Dog Canyon make me miss the deserts. Craig's been thinking about a long day in the desert, maybe I can talk him into a runabout in Gatel's back yard. I trust you'll treat us to some eye candy next week? I enjoy your photos, homie.

Adan Lopez
(Lopez) - F

Locale: San Gabriel Valley
Mike and Greg on 02/29/2012 14:48:51 MST Print View

Just reading back through some of the things Mike and Greg have had to deal with along the way. Inspiring to see how well both of you handle the twists and turns (no pun intended) of ankle or back injury. I limped out of a 17 mile mountain run the other day, I'm fine now I think, but man it had me worried for a minute. Eugene's right, you guys rock. Props, fellas.

Mike M
(mtwarden) - MLife

Locale: Montana
handhelds on 03/01/2012 12:53:57 MST Print View

Adan- thanks, it has been a challenge at times- appears I've been in good company though!

I just ordered two handhelds (20 oz each)- I was going to use my Talon 4 w/ two 20 oz bottles, but while I can carry a few bits of clothing and food in the pack portion- more water would be challenging

soooo- I think I'll go w/ the two handhelds (will start training w/ them when they arrive) and use my Talon 5.5 pack instead- I won't have a bladder in it, instead two 1 liter platy's (one left empty)- gives me a little more room for clothing/food to boot

I'm pretty sure 72 oz of water should do me for the 7 mile stretch to Phantom, 7 miles to Cottonwood and 2 to Roaring- if the angels are really singing in my ears and I feel like a million bucks :), I can fill the empty platy giving me over 100 oz for the grind of North Kaibab

Mike

Art ...
(asandh) - F
Re: handhelds on 03/01/2012 13:10:13 MST Print View

Mike
if you plan to use 2 handhelds, definitely use them in training between now and RRR.
the extra weight in each hand takes a little getting used to.

there are at least 2 ways to carry a bottle when combined with bottle harness:
a. with your hand thru the loop and grasping the bottle.
b. simply grasping the loop and letting the bottle hang.
and
c. you can even do a variation of b. by grasping the loop of both bottle harnesses in one hand (letting bottles hang) to give your other hand a rest, or eat something or whatever.

so several variations to keep your hands from seizing up over time.

there are many bottle harnesses on the market but my favorite is Ultimate Direction.
problem is I don't like their bottles and they come as a set, so I end up giving the bottle away and using the harness with a different bottle.

Ultimate Direction

Edited by asandh on 03/01/2012 13:15:23 MST.

Mike M
(mtwarden) - MLife

Locale: Montana
Re: Re: handhelds on 03/01/2012 16:13:02 MST Print View

Art- thanks, I'll give each a try. Ultimate Direction Fastdraw + is what I ordered :), I don't mind the bottles that came w/ the Talon so I can fall back on them if need be

Eugene Smith
(Eugeneius) - MLife

Locale: Nuevo Mexico
bottles on 03/01/2012 16:32:10 MST Print View

Just a preference, I happen to prefer the Fastdraw + Extreme, which has a neoprene cozy around the body of the bottle. This comes in handy when I do beer miles. ;-) I kid......

In all seriousness though, the Fastdraw Plus Extreme (*ridiculous name) rests in my hand better and requires less adjusting and re-tensioning of the side compression strap as time goes by. Both the Plus and Plus Extreme are solid, comes down to preference and fit I suppose.

Mike, the cheapo classic Specialized bottles fit well in the Ultimate Direction holders, the mouth on those bottles are wider and easier to pour drink mixes and ice into.....not that we'll have the luxury of ice in April.

Mike M
(mtwarden) - MLife

Locale: Montana
Re: bottles on 03/01/2012 16:38:58 MST Print View

I never thought about the neoprene as a possible better fit- figured I didn't need any cooling so went w/ the +

the bottles that came w/ the Osprey are widemouth as well, nothing too fancy just a pull spout on top- they don't leak either which is plus :)

Art ...
(asandh) - F
Re: Re: bottles on 03/01/2012 16:55:46 MST Print View

the real trick is running with 2 handhelds and a flashlight.
I run at night with both a headlamp and a handheld flashlight.
took a while to solve my preference for that one.
helps to have a narrow long light, with a wrist strap.

Mike M
(mtwarden) - MLife

Locale: Montana
Re: Re: Re: bottles on 03/01/2012 20:19:08 MST Print View

not sure how accurate this study was, but kind of poo-poos handhelds

http://runningtimes.com/Article.aspx?ArticleID=18677

Art ...
(asandh) - F
Re: Re: Re: Re: bottles on 03/01/2012 22:02:09 MST Print View

all I know is anecdotally what I see in the ultra races I run.
most pepole at the front of the pack use handhelds.
bladders on the back become more common in the mid to back half of the pack.
I don't think the method makes you faster, but the fast guys must know something.
my guess is the study is not wrong, but the use of handhelds is more about efficiency of time than efficiency of energy, and that mirrors my personal experience. overall (time v.s.energy) the front runners opt for time, but they are in pretty great shape.

I have also volunteered at ultra aid stations. the handheld guys tend to get in and out of the aid stations quite a bit faster.

in a hike situation where time is not a central focus there may be better options than two handhelds.

Edited by asandh on 03/01/2012 22:24:36 MST.

Adan Lopez
(Lopez) - F

Locale: San Gabriel Valley
Handhelds on 03/02/2012 22:49:07 MST Print View

Art,
thAt wrist light idea is good. I'm going to rig one up.

David Thomas
(DavidinKenai) - MLife

Locale: North Woods. Far North.
Re: Re: Re: Re: bottles on 03/02/2012 23:22:32 MST Print View

Mike: That study echos my intial thoughts: waving weight around is wasting effort compared to carrying it at a constant speed and height. Just like a pound off your feet is worth 7 pounds off your back and rim weight on a bike is much worse than frame weight, anything you're pumping up and down in your hand is going to be more energy expended. Much like having things lashed securely to your pack is easier to carry than having loose, bouncy and swinging stuff on your pack.

Maybe the elite runners have upper body strength to spare. Or maybe the seconds lost futzing with a pack are never regained, so they go with handhelds.

Craig W.
(xnomanx) - F - M
Bottles on 03/02/2012 23:39:40 MST Print View

I've done both bladders and bottles. I haven't used a bladder hiking or running in a long time.
While bottles may take more energy, I think they're easier in other ways. I'm hardly a front of the pack runner, but I've come to like bottles for a few reasons.

My experiences:
-easier to regulate how much you're drinking; I don't like bladders because I cannot see how much water I have left. With bottles I can pace myself depending on weather/exertion- .5 per hour, 1 per hour, 1.5 per hour, etc. This is my main reason for bottles over bladders.
-faster to fill; especially annoying to refill bladders from streams- messing with hoses, etc.
-you can add calories to them more conveniently (i.e. Perpetuem- which I just discovered I like)
-personal preference; I don't care for drinking from hoses.


Bottles don't always have to be handheld though. I find I often only hold one while I have two in my pack; that's likely how I'll roll for the R2R2R. I don't notice the weight in my hand at all.

Edited by xnomanx on 03/02/2012 23:57:47 MST.

Mike M
(mtwarden) - MLife

Locale: Montana
Re: Bottles on 03/03/2012 08:11:12 MST Print View

Craig- agreed, the inability to know what's left in the bladder is definitely a drawback, as is the re-filling- it is very handy for drinking though

I'm also going to be carrying a bottle of Perpetuem as well, can't say that I love the taste (orange), but it appears to be easy on my stomach and it's quick/easy calories (and electrolytes) :)

I've really liked running w/ my Talon 4, bottles are pretty handy, has nice belt pouches and the main compartment is just large enough for a few pieces of clothing, food, emergency gear, but not quite large enough for more water and I don't want to take the risk of running low at the Canyon- I think for a mountain run (or anywhere where water is more plentiful) it would be near perfect

Photobucket

Mike

Eugene Smith
(Eugeneius) - MLife

Locale: Nuevo Mexico
bottle holders on 03/03/2012 08:21:10 MST Print View

Mike,

You're going about the waist pack all wrong brother.

belt

Mike M
(mtwarden) - MLife

Locale: Montana
Re: bottle holders on 03/03/2012 08:30:20 MST Print View

looks like I can scratch that off of my must invent list :)

Dan Hewins
(hewinsd) - F

Locale: Chihuahuan Desert
setup on 03/03/2012 23:19:29 MST Print View

Other than my first ultra, where I totally over thought my 'setup' in a lot of ways this is the second time that I have really given much thought to bottles and packs, storage capacity, layers etc... During an event with well stocked fairly frequent aid stations manned by competent/friendly/willing volunteers I am pretty much a 1 handheld and a few gels kind of runner. However, the prospect of basically running across and up the canyon twice has made me leantoward a higher water carrying capacity and a few odds and ends that are more indicative of the kind of running you see on a self supported stage type race. I am pretty sure I am inching closer to what I'll be carrying on my back come April 14. No matter what I know I am going to employ the "keep it simple stupid" (KISS) strategy and pre-measure my powders making 'drug baggies' of HEED/Perpetuem - or maybe carry those fizzy tabs that have been known to cause bottles to explode and/or turn into hissing snakes that leads to runners jumping off trail in fear.

Art ...
(asandh) - F
Re: setup on 03/04/2012 09:28:05 MST Print View

aside from the water, nutrition, hydration issues,
backup clothing of some sort should probably be considered also.
The north rim is over 8,000 ft and a long ways from the south rim.

Art ...
(asandh) - F
Saturday's Run ... Lost in the Zone on 03/04/2012 09:47:17 MST Print View

three of us, Me, John (coming to RRR), and Gary (not), drove a bit north Saturday morning for a training run on the upcoming Old Goats 50. John and I were totally unfamiliar with the trail but Gary was moderately familiar.
It started out as a simple 22 miler and Gary only got us lost once, which was easily corrected by reversing our steps.
Around mile 15 Gary and I started complaining about our aches but John had a burst of energy, despite just having done a 50 miler last weekend, said he was "in the zone" and took off ahead of us.
Hour and half later we get back to the car, John's car of course, and no John.
Wait an hour, no john.
We tell the story to a passing ranger who says he'll check back periodically.
Three hours later, no John, and the Ranger brigade drives up, prepared to start thinking about search and rescue, its not dark yet but will be soon.
They're about half hour from calling out the troops when a group of three hikers I had asked to be on the lookout for John, drags him out of the woods into the trailhead. He is ok, but extremely parched.
The "zone" had apparently caused him to zone out, and he took two wrong turns, ran around in circles, ran out of water, and could barely speak when the hikers came across him. John probably did at least an extra 8 beyond our 22.
The rangers were happy, we were happy,
John was thankful, lesson learned .. when you're in the zone .. don't zone out.
Of course we'll try not to let this happen at the RRR.

p.s.
these were the nicest, most cooperative forest rangers I've ever dealt with, very impressed with how they handled things.

Edited by asandh on 03/04/2012 10:10:56 MST.

Mike M
(mtwarden) - MLife

Locale: Montana
Re: Re: setup on 03/04/2012 09:49:15 MST Print View

call me a boy scout :) but I'm carrying a small AMK bivy, a AMK heatsheet, little spectra line and a few redundant ways to start a fire- one insulating vest either a R2 or a nanopuff, windshirt, beanie & gloves and a small first aid kit