Thanks Art. Yeah, best to test things beforehand. I will.

So if I start to feel myself bonking, are gels the best / quickest way out of that? Followed by longer-lasting foods?

Perhaps I should always have 1-2 with me on long hikes? And test how I react to them on my training hike.

Just got a pair of short, wide X-C skiis - kind of sliding snowshoes with snowshoe-type bindings. So Kristin and I are off into the forest now - I'll check back later tonight.

"We can only digest so many calories an hour, overdoing it on the caloric intake while exercising can wreak havoc on your muscles, due to blood being diverted to aid in stomach digestion."

This is a critical thing to keep in mind, folks. With that in mind, avoid things like nuts, which take a lot of digesting due to high fat and protein content. One food that hasn't been mentioned so far is boiled potatoes. They are a great source of highly available carbs that go thru the digestive system very fast and also satisfy that craving for "real food". I personally know one ultra guy who ran right around 7 hours for 50 miles who swore by them and also said they are fairly popular with the ultra crowd. Worth considering, IMO. If you can tolerate it, Greg's idea of using maltodextrin is darn near optimal. That is the primary constituent of Perpetuem and Sustained Energy, both Hammer products, although Greg makes his own up from scratch, adding in a few electrolytes as well.

...

Edited by asandh on 02/13/2012 20:55:24 MST.

"carrying them on the R2R2R could get a bit messy though."

Why? Leave them in their skins and carry in either a lightweight tupperwear container or a large Zip Loc. I do it frequently even now on longer day hikes. Dipped in a bit of salt they are delicious, easy on the tummy, and definitely get the job done. On a run like the R2R2R, I'd use Mortons Lite salt, which is half sodium and half potassium, for the electrolytes it provides. If you use small "creamer", also called "new", potatoes, you can just pop the whole potato in your mouth, chew, and swallow-no muss, no fuss, no bother. Mmmmm mmmm, finger lickin' good, as The Colonel used to say. ;0)

Art,
Thanks for your quick breakdown of nutrition and their strengths. I've read a lot about nutrition and always find a bunch of scientific jibber-gabber. It's good to get the low-down in regular terms.

Edited by benwood on 01/28/2012 20:30:26 MST.

I have a pretty standard ultra diet (pizza & nutella):

For less than 5 hrs

- Heed*
- GU brand gels**
- S! Caps (1-2/hr depending on conditions)

--
For more than 5 hrs add:

- Honey Stinger Waffles (calories; if/when gels start to get tough to take in)
- Candy/GU Chomps (electrolytes & calories; later in the day if/when gels are tough to get in)
- Perpetuem Soilds (protein; late in the day)
- Green Chile Cheeseburger
- Stout in frosted mug
--
Post run:

I drink 1 scoop of whey protein in a glass of ice cold milk (1 scoop ~20g/protein in 12oz 1% milk) after any run longer than 3 miles. I usually also try to take in some kind of carbohydrate w/ a high glycemic index as soon as I finish (e.g., few slices of sour dough toast, tortillas, cereal, potatoes), which seems to help restore carb stores and reduce catabolism (e.g, glycogen to glucose).

----
The only advice I have here is to test things on your long runs and find what can either pull you up out of a hole quickly (**for me it is GU where Hammer gels for example don't seem to better my condition), or what can keep you moving happily (*water doesn't seem to work for me on longer runs, so I stick with Heed). I have never really lost my stomach, but I have started to have a hard time with gel fuel and sweet stuff, so I like to have some bland calories available too (tortillas, potatoes etc...).

Edited by hewinsd on 01/29/2012 01:47:22 MST.

Irunfar.com, the quintessential ultra running website, published on aspects of race nutrition a while back - I dug up the articles. They may be of use for some of you getting started...

Nutrition (in broad context):

http://www.irunfar.com/2011/03/race-nutrition.html

Gel comparison (some of the info may be out of date I think Clif has a new formula):

http://www.irunfar.com/2008/12/energy-gel-comparison.html

Caffeine (we all do it):

http://www.irunfar.com/2008/04/caffeine-and-endurance-running.html

Ibuprofen (same as above):

http://www.irunfar.com/2010/07/ibuprofen-and-its-effects-during-ultramarathons.html

...

Edited by asandh on 02/13/2012 20:54:17 MST.

I always fear vomiting Art, under any circumstances. ;-) I would rather suffer for hours on end than succumb to vomiting.

Do you have any horror stories regarding your stomach revolting on a run?


@ Greg,

What maltodextrin are you using for your MYOF (*make your own formula) supplements? I like the idea of figuring out your own preferences and adding cheap flavorings like Crystal light. Yesterday I ran with some unflavored HEED which isn't half bad, my father turned me onto that stuff a while back.

I bought two 50lb bags of Maltrin QD M500 Maltodextrin from Skidmore Sales. I ended up using about 80 lbs of it on my thru and have been slowly burning through the rest on training runs. Note: maltodextrin has no taste but it does have mild sweetness.

Here are my top-secret recipes:

Electrolyte Mix (100 servings)
41g Salt Balance (low sodium salt substitute)
108g Calcium Complex (such as All One 58638)

This will make (100) 1.5g servings. I either put in Malto mix or pack out in capsules. This replicates 3 Enduralytes only MUCH less expensive.


Basic Malto mix (300 calories)
1) Make a premix out of 10-12L of crystal light mix, 15-18g Electrolyte Mix and enough maltodextrin to make 100-120g total weight (Depends on whether it 10 or 12L of crystal light mix. Premix allows you to get more consistent mix.
2) Mix completely.
3) Add 10g of premix and 70g of maltodextrin to bag for 80g serving total.

This makes up a mixture that is flavored the same as crystal light but a bit sweeter due to maltodextrin. You would mix this with water to get a total of 1L.

On my thru-hike I started to mix this double strength to cut down the number of times I had to mix up the Malto. It was a bit strong but I had no trouble drinking 80lbs worth of Malto in 98 days. If I were to do it over I would mix up 600 calorie packs using about 12g premix(with double electrolytes) and 145g of maltodextrin.


Perpetuem Equivalent (300 calorie pack)
24g Soy Protein
50g Maltodextrin
10g Lecithin Powder (this is the fat component of Perpetuem)


Recovery Mix
28g Whey Protein
50g Maltodextrin
3g glutamine
1.5g Electrolyte mix

I made up a few of the recovery and the perpetuem mixes. The protein and lecithin made it taste yucky and I had to hold my nose to drink it. This was not going to be viable for 98 days so I ended up taking my Malto mix and adding glutamine capsules and other sources of protein at the end of the day.

Edited by gg-man on 01/29/2012 15:05:22 MST.

...

Edited by asandh on 02/13/2012 20:56:21 MST.

@ Greg,

Wow! Excellent resource, thank you very much, this is exactly the kind of stuff I'm looking for. I appreciate you sharing your top secret formulas. I did find 'Carbo Gain' 100% malto pricing and it's pretty affordable, something around $30 for 12lbs. which would last me almost an eternity since I don't fuel with supplements daily.

My sister makes a mean 'Hammer Bar' replica that I may need to have her make more of and bring them up in April.

@Art,

I've seen the video of AJW losing it during Western and pushing on-it's inspiring to say the least.

Lots of excellent info to digest here! I'll be reading through carefully this week, much to learn from y'all, thanks everybody! I'll likely be experimenting with a mix of potatoes, chips, bars, and some of the supplements mentioned for easy carbs during faster sections. I'll bone up on the concepts and intake rates etc and make adjustments as i go. I'm 6'4" 215lbs, what should I target for calories/hr?

I Hit 40 miles this week!! Training seems really good so far. Had my first real tough run doing 20mi/5000' with craig today, some mystery pain and limping which I was worried about but I feel great now after elevating the leg and a good nap. Looking forward to my easy recovery week now and time with the kinfolk before coming back even stronger next week! Sometimes it sucks being the rookie but not in this group, thanks for all the support fellas!

Lessons learned this week:
Lots to learn about nutrition.
Mt101 maybe light for 20+ miles, ordered some Altra Lone Peaks to try.
Switch from 2 hand bottles to one hand and one in the pack for eating purposes.
even a 3mile run can be hard if you go too fast.
Pavement don't like me.
I'm a runner!

Adan,
I have good luck with 300 calories per hour. I would also take enough "hours worth" to hike the distance. (I will be taking about 4500 calories) I'm normally 6'2", 187. That worked well for me on long fast hikes up to 57 and straight runs up to 32 miles. I would probably target 320/hour in your case, you can adjust as needed. Glad to have you on-board.

believe me your not the rookie :)

had a good week (by my standards) started out w/ some x-country skiing and then got several runs; the snow varies from 4-8" so it definitely makes the running more challenging then w/ no snow

weather looks promising for next week (30-40 for highs), hope to get into the low 30's for miles next week (God willing)

1. Peanut (or almond) butter and agave nectar sandwich halves or quarters are as good (if not better) than any sports bar.

2. My Inov8 Roclite 295s seem to work well for distance. The MT110 is a littl elacking for me at ~20 miles or more.

3. Certain runs are unnecessary; if you're heading out the door tired and sore, just to grudgingly get in a 5 miler to boost your weekly numbers, you're probably better off at home resting so you can get in a much better quality run the next day.

4. One or two fried or scrambled eggs (organic backyard eggs from my girls) on a piece sprouted grain toast seem to be the perfect pre- long run meal for me. Add some avocado slices for a harder day. And don't forget the black coffee (but only a half cup before a run).

5. My dog thinks brand new rolls of leukotape are awesome chew toys when left out.

Edited by xnomanx on 01/29/2012 20:36:19 MST.

finally hit the 30 mile mark :) next week I'm hoping to bump my long run to 12 miles and break through the 30 mile mark

I got the results of my MRI (but haven't got an appointment w/ the neurologist yet) evidently I have a bulged disc in my neck- that would explain the nerve trouble I've been having

I also tried some gel (Cliff shot) on my 10 mile run, no ill effects- actually tasted pretty good :)

ps Greg- glad the ankle is feeling better!

Art- hope the hamstring heals soon for you

Edited by mtwarden on 02/05/2012 18:08:51 MST.

First off, let me say I'm not knocking anyone that uses packaged or processed running calories (gels, perpetuem, maltodextrin, etc.), but I've been looking for alternatives. Here's my take:

I'm actually driven more by the cheapskate in me, as well as not wanting to have to go to GNC, shop online, or go to sporting goods stores to get my running calories. I was about to buy some gels today but recoiled at the $1.29 price tag. For one bite?! So I'm really coming from more of a DIY, home supermarket/health food store approach.
_________________________________________________________________________

Some thoughts/stuff I like:

-Water: I gave up on sports drinks/mixes long ago during my distance cycling days. I've found water does me just fine, provided I'm getting my salt/potassium elsewhere. Using water makes life simple.

-Kettle chips: (or any other fairly straightforward/simple potato chip) I gobble them crushed. O ne ounce equals 150 calories, 16g carbs, 430mg potassium, 115 mg sodium. Compare with a Salt Stick tablet: 215mg sodium, 63 mg potassium. So far as I'm concerned, these work fine for electrolytes and calories.
I like the sea salt version.

-Pitted dates (or a small homemade date square equaling roughly 5 dates): 5 pitted dates (1.5 oz) is 120 cal., 32g carb. (29 from sugar). These have worked well for me for a quick sugar rush/pick me up. They take the place of a gel.

-Peanut or almond butter and honey or agave nectar sandwich squares: each one is a quarter sandwich, individually wrapped. Don't know the calories, but I'm getting some protein, fats, carbs, and sugars all in one.

One I'd like to try:
Adan's mini mashed potato burritos. I was envying them on this morning's run. About an inch in diameter and two or three inches long, they look nice and easy to carry. Salt, carbs, calories.

As to the convenience of eating while running or cycling: I don't eat while running or working hard on a bike. I'm not out trying to win the WS 100 or TDF. A 2-3 minute walk/food break every few miles of running on a long day is only going to conserve a little energy make me faster in the long haul anyway. It's a given that I'll be mixing in walk breaks; so those become food breaks. Periodically slowing from an 8-10 minute mile to a brief 13-14 minute/mile brisk walk isn't going to drastically effect my times. Most of the food I mention I can eat fine at a slow jog anyhow.

___________________________________________________________

All of this may be a bit bulkier than the packaged and concentrated stuff, but it's all readily available, can be kept on hand, and is fairly cheap. But ultimately, it jives with the idea that you shouldn't have to buy special food to run/do endurance sports. I like that idea. It's worked for me well so far for running and during 200+ mile/12+ hour cycling races in the past.

Edited by xnomanx on 02/05/2012 20:01:19 MST.

Nice Mike, you're getting up there. Hope everything goes well.

I took it easy this week:
~33 miles, long run was about 12...don't know the elevation, but it was decent. I just needed to feel like I was taking it easier, let my legs rest a bit, etc.

Really fun run with Adan this morning...snow, mountains, blood, microspikes, snot, numb hands, sunny ridges, wind, trees, and howling like a coyote on the descent....Maybe he'll post some pics.

I've started to question how I'm running a bit: I'm not entirely sure that some of the mid-week 5-6 mile runs are really all that necessary right now. In fact, I wonder if they just leave me a little more tired come the weekend's long run. I'm actually thinking that at this point I'm going to back off the mid-week mileage a bit and add more to the long run every weekend, go into it feeling fresher. Planning on trying a week or two of only 4 days of running (including a solid long run) combined with 3 or 4 cross training sessions per week. We'll see how that works out.

Happy trails everyone.

Craig,
You are heading the direction that I went when I ran my first marathon. I hated running so I only ran once a week, a long run. Now that I really enjoy running I think that getting two to three good runs per week is much more important than weekly mileage. But each run has to have a porpoise! Maybe an intense hill workout, maybe a tempo run but I am really starting to question the wisdom of miles for miles sake. But I'm a running newbie, maybe I will be a convert!