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Thom Darrah
(thomdarrah) - MLife

Locale: Southern Oregon
2012 R2R2R Group - Training Log's on 11/22/2011 23:22:55 MST Print View

Injured, I'm out.

Edited by thomdarrah on 01/08/2012 18:58:57 MST.

Craig W.
(xnomanx) - F - M
2012 R2R2R Group - Training Logs on 11/22/2011 23:31:25 MST Print View

M / T / W / Th / F / S / Sun
All numbers = miles
(T)= Trail
(R)= Road
(B)= Backpacking/Hiking
(X)= Cross training
Elevations listed will be up only. Less than 1000' won't be listed.
_________________________________________________________________________________

11/14: 4(T) / 0 / 0 / 5.25(T) / 0 / 18 (B) / 3(B) = 30.25 miles

11/21: 0(X) / 3.1(T) / 10(T) / 5.25 (T) / 10(T) / 0 / 10(T) = 38.35 miles

11/28: 0 / 5 (track with stairs) / 3.1 (R) / 0 / 6(R) / 10(T) / 9.5(T) = 33.6 miles

12/5: 0 / 3.1(R)+(X) / 5.25(T) / 0 / 5.25(T) / 0 (2.5B) / (2.5 B) 8.55(R) = 22.1 miles + 5 Backpacking

12/12: 5.25(T) / 0 / 5.25(T) / 9(R) / 5.25(T) / 5.25(T) / 11.5(T- 2900') = 41.5 miles, 2900'

12/19: 0 / 0 / 5.25(T) / 5.25(T) / 0 / 0 / 0 = 10.25 miles (sick this week)

12/26: 0 / 11.5(T- 2900') / 0 / 0 / 0 / 0 / 0 = 11.5 miles, 2900' (sick/travelling this week)

1/2: 3.1(R) / 1(R) / 1(R) / 5.5(T- 1400') / 5.5(T- 1400') / 5.25(T) / 3.1(R) = 24.5 miles, 2800' (almost better; feeling about 85%)

1/9: 1(R) / 5.5 (T- 1400') / 5.25(T) / 10(T- 2900') / 5.25(T) / 13 (T- 4000') / 1(R) = 41 miles, 8300'

1/16: 1(R) / 5.25(T) / 0 / 5.25(T) / 5.25(T) / 9(R) / 16(T- 3600') = 41.7 miles, 3600'

1/23: 0 / 5.25(T) / 5.25(T) / 10(T- 1000') / 2.5(B) / 2.5(B) / 20 (T- 5000') = 40.5 miles, 5000' + 5 miles backpacking

1/30: 5.25(T) / 0 (rest) / 5.25(T) / 10(T- 1000') / 1(R) / 0 / 12 (T) : 33 miles, ? elevation

2/6: 0 / 3.1(R) / weights / 5.25(T) / weights / 30(T- 9600') / 2.5(R) = 40.5, 9600'

2/13: 0 / 3.1(R)+ weights / 5.25(T) / 10(T- 1000') / 0 / 3(backpacking) / 3(backpacking) = 18.35 miles, 1000' + 6 backpacking

2/20: 5.25(T) / 0 / 5.25(T) / 10(T-1000') / 5.25(T) / 5.25(T) / 17(T- 7000') = 48 miles, 8000'

2/26: 0/0/0/ 10(T-1000) / 9 (R) / 12 (T- 2900') / 0 = 31 miles, 3900'
This week was a bit low...Life and schedules just didn't jive with running. Feel great and rested though, ready for this coming week.

3/5: 0 / 5.25(T) / 0 / 11 (R) / 9(R) / 10(T-2500')+9(R)/ 10(T-1500' = 54.25 miles, 4000'
Good week. No long run but plenty of miles. Feeling good.

3/12: 0 / 5.25(T) / 5.25(T) / 10(R) / 3.1(R) / 3.1(R) / 50 (cycle) = 26.7 miles + 50 miles cycling

3/19: 0 / 5.25(T) / 5.25(T) / 11.5(T) / 0 / 10(T) / 0 = 32 miles

3/26: 6(T) / 22(T- 5200') / 0 / 10(T) / 5.25(T) /

Edited by xnomanx on 03/30/2012 16:48:35 MDT.

Art ...
(asandh) - F
Re: 2012 R2R2R Group - Training Log's on 11/23/2011 07:29:20 MST Print View

entry deleted to consolidate thread.

Edited by asandh on 12/03/2011 09:43:37 MST.

Hiking Malto
(gg-man) - F
Greg's Training Log on 11/23/2011 07:55:50 MST Print View

M/T/W/H/F/S/S format

11/14: M-.75(E) / T-0 / W-1(E) / H-.75(M) / F-7(T) / S-1.25(E) / S-1(M)
11/21: M-3(T) / T-7(T) / W-6.4(R) / H-0 / F-.75(E) / S-1(M) / S-7(T)+1(E)
11/28: M-0 / T-1(E) / W-1(M) / H-.75(M) / F-0 / S-17(T) / S-3(R)
12/05: M-.75(E) / T-1(M) / W-.75(E) / H-1(M) / F-0 / S-17(T) / S-0
12/12: M-1(M) / T-.5(E)/ W-10(T) / H-0 / F-0 / S-20(R) / S-1(E)
12/19: M-3(T) / T-0 / W-11(T) / H-0 / F-11(R) / S-2.5(T) / S-0
12/26: M-6 (T-3600 steps) / T-1(E) / W-0 / H-0 / F-10(T) / S-10(R) / S-0
1/2: M-15(T) / T-0 / W-1(M) / H-1(M) / F-0 / S-3(M) / S-.75(E)
1/9: M-0 / T-9.3(1560'-R) /W-0 / H-9.3(1560'-R) / F-.5(M) / S-0 / S-32 (6934'-T)
1/16 M-0 / T-0 / W-0 / H-0 / F-.75(M) / S-20(R) / S-4(R)+1.5(E)
1/23: M-1(E) / T-4(R) / W-5(T) / H-0 / F-0 / S-1(E) / S-3(R)+WGT
1/30: M-1.5(E) / T-1.25(M) / W-3(R)+WGT / H-4(R) / F-WGT / S-10(R) / S-7(T)
2/06: M-4(520'-R) / T-WGT / W-10.3 (1560'-R) / H-0 / F-9.2 (1560' - R/T) / S-WGT / S-16.5 (2700'-T)
2/13: M-0 / T-0 / W-8(T) / H-0 / F-5(H)+10(T) / S-8(H) / S-4(H)+13(T)
2/20: M-0 / T-WGT / W-.5 (R) / H-WGT / F-0 / S-40.3 (10,100'-T) / S-0
2/27: M-0 / T-WGT / W-3(520'-R) / W-3(R) / H-WGT / F-0 / S-20(R) / S-0
3/5: M-1.5(M) / T-WGT / W-10.3(1560'-R) / H-4(R) / F-0 /S-40 (13,050'-T) / S-0
3/12: M-0 / T-3 / W-3 / H-0 / F-0 / S-16 (4100'-T) S-5.5 (900'-T)
3/19: M-WGT / T-13 (R) / W-0 / H-0 / F-0 / S-40 (9300'-T) / S-0
3/26: M-0 / T-0 / W-0 / H-0 / F-0 / S-32 (6934'-T) / S-0


E-Elliptical (hrs)
M-Treadmill (hrs)
T-Trail (miles)
R-Road (miles)
WGT- Weights
H-Hiking (miles)

Status: 4/1 - Life got in the way for mid week runs. Went back up to AT Approach Trail and did the "Meatgrinder" for the third time this year and second time in two weeks. Completed the 32 miles in 8 hours which would have been faster if I didn't mess up on my final water refill. Ended up doing the final 8 miles with only four oz. of water. It impacted my wood and electrolyte intake as well. This was a great lesson for the RRR because it will be even less forgiving and those eight dry, hot miles were anything but fun. The rest of the way was a blast!

Edited by gg-man on 04/01/2012 05:21:29 MDT.

Art ...
(asandh) - F
2012 R2R2R Group - Training Logs on 11/23/2011 09:19:28 MST Print View

Switched to just registering weekly stats because list was getting too unwieldy.
My training week goes Fri-Thur (to put entire long weekends in same week)
Mileage is generally 75% trail, 25% road, with all long runs on trail.

(1000') = 1000 feet of elevation gain during run.
for this log, "long run" means 18 miles or longer.

Nov 11-17 = 53mi (2500') ... includes long run of 50mi road race
Nov 18-24 = 21mi (7000') ... no long run
Nov25-Dec1 = 28mi (5400') ... no long run
Dec 2-8 = 30mi (6200') ... no long run
Dec 9-15 = 24mi (4400') ... includes long run of 21mi
Dec 16-22 = 24mi (5500') ... no long run
Dec 23-29 = 35mi (8300') ... no long run
Dec30-Jan5 = 36mi (5100') ... no long run
Jan 6-12 = 26mi (4400') ... no long run
Jan 13-19 = 47mi (9600') ... includes long run of 24.5mi
Jan 20-26 = 41.5mi (8550') ... no long run
Jan27-Feb2 = 36mi (7,400') ... no long run
Feb 3-9 = 49mi (8,400') ... includes long run of 21mi
Feb 10-16 = 57mi (10,200') ... includes long run of 29mi
Feb 17-23 = 50mi (9,800') ... no long run
Feb24-Mar1 = 43mi (7,300') ... includes long run of 24.5mi
Mar 2-8 = 51mi (8,600') ... includes long run of 23mi
Mar 9-15 = 44mi (9,200') ... includes long run of 21.5mi
Mar 16-22 = 22mi (2,500') ... no long run
Mar 23-29 = 58mi (15,400') ... includes Old Goats 50 mile trail race
Mar 30-Apr 5 = 27mi (9,000') ... low mileage but all miles were serious hill work
. . .

Edited by asandh on 04/05/2012 17:46:56 MDT.

George Matthews
(gmatthews) - MLife
Re: 2012 R2R2R Group - Training Logs on 11/23/2011 13:01:47 MST Print View

11/11: 10mi c,[0],{1.75hr}/ 10mi c,[0],{1.75hr}/ 3mi c,[0],{.5hr}/x/x/x/x

11/18: x/ 11.2mi c,[0],{2 hr}/ 6.5mi c,[0],{1.25hr}/ x/ x/ mi ,[0],{ hr}

11/25: mi ,[0],{ hr}/ / / / / /

c denotes combo road and trail
x - zero running

[elev] {time}

Edited by gmatthews on 11/23/2011 13:56:21 MST.

George Matthews
(gmatthews) - MLife
Re: 2012 R2R2R Group - Training Logs on 11/23/2011 13:18:01 MST Print View

.

Edited by gmatthews on 11/23/2011 13:24:56 MST.

Art ...
(asandh) - F
Re: Re: 2012 R2R2R Group - Training Logs on 11/23/2011 13:26:03 MST Print View

. . . .

Edited by asandh on 11/23/2011 13:31:05 MST.

Eugene Smith
(Eugeneius) - MLife

Locale: Nuevo Mexico
"2012 R2R2R Group - Training Logs" on 11/23/2011 13:41:55 MST Print View

M/ T/ W/ Th/ F/ S/ Sun
(T)= Trail
(R)= Road
(D)= Double run day
_____________________________________________________________________________________________

11/21: 8mi (1,400')/ 8mi (700')/ 5mi (tempo)/ 5mi (1300')/0/0/ 16mi. (∼1,800')= 42 miles
11/28: 7mi (1,200')/ 8mi/ 3mi/ 9mi/ 0/ 0/ 22 (~2,500')= 49 miles
12/05: 0mi/ 8mi (1,200)/ 9mi (tempo)/0/0/0/9mi (tempo)= 27 miles
12/12: 9mi/7mi/5mi/0/5/XT/0= 26miles
12/19: *Didn't log runs, but ran a bit.
12/26: *Didn't log runs, but ran a bit less.
01/02: 5(1000')/ 5(1000')/ 10(2000')/ 3(800')/ 5 (800')/ 0/ 8 (~2500')
01/09: 5(800')/ 4(800')/0 (XT)/ 10(1700')/10(1000')/8(~2500)/12 (~800')
01/16: 10 (~800')/ 9 (~1000')/ 6/ 10 (~1000')/ 0/ 14 (~3800')/
01/23: 7/ 10/ 9/ 5/ 0/ 10/
01/30: 12/8/7/8/0/0/lazy bum
02/06: 8+5(D)/8/7/9/0/5/17
02/13: 12/7/8/5/0/0/0
02/20: 12 (D) ~2,600'/9/0/9/4/0/20
02/27: 6/8/8/0/4/0/28
03/05:

Edited by Eugeneius on 03/05/2012 20:10:15 MST.

ben wood
(benwood)

Locale: flatlands of MO
Re: 2012 R2R2R Group - Training Log's on 11/26/2011 20:30:51 MST Print View

i'm out, f'n ankle!

Edited by benwood on 01/23/2012 10:17:09 MST.

Craig W.
(xnomanx) - F - M
Re: Re: 2012 R2R2R Group - Training Log's on 11/26/2011 21:01:24 MST Print View

Hey, if the gain was 10,560', 2 miles ain't too bad.

ben wood
(benwood)

Locale: flatlands of MO
Re: Re: Re: 2012 R2R2R Group - Training Log's on 11/27/2011 12:57:02 MST Print View

"Hey, if the gain was 10,560', 2 miles ain't too bad."

hahaha not even close!

Craig W.
(xnomanx) - F - M
2012 R2R2R Group - Training Log's on 11/27/2011 19:16:37 MST Print View

...

Edited by xnomanx on 12/07/2011 18:22:10 MST.

Art ...
(asandh) - F
Re: 2012 R2R2R Group - Training Log's on 11/27/2011 20:53:21 MST Print View

. . .

Edited by asandh on 01/30/2012 19:08:12 MST.

Eugene Smith
(Eugeneius) - MLife

Locale: Nuevo Mexico
"2012 R2R2R Group - Training Log's" on 11/27/2011 21:29:46 MST Print View

I've laid out more or less my week above, also my goal for the month of Dec., which is to just maintain and not get ahead of myself. Currently I'm relishing the non-regimented running schedule and the variety of runs I've been doing. I don't intend to run much more than 40-50 miles per week until Jan.1st.

There isn't anything in the oven for me this month. I may try to seek out a few runs nearby that are heavy on vertical in Dec., but I'm content doing repeats on my local route for now.

My goals for this upcoming week specifically:

- 40ish miles minimum.
- Enjoy my running.

Mike M
(mtwarden) - MLife

Locale: Montana
looong way to go :) on 11/28/2011 20:03:25 MST Print View

boy oh boy, I've got a long way to go! :)

11/21- 0/5 T 600'/lift/5 T 600'/lift/0/5 T 600' = 15 miles
11/28-0/8 T 500'/lift/5 T 600'/lift/3 run, 3 walk (turned my ankle :( )/1 hour stairmaster = 16 miles of running
12/5-0/5 T 600'/3 T 500'/lift/0/ 6 R 800'/6 T 800'= 20 miles (yeah! :))
12/12-0/5.5 T 700'/lift/ 6 R 800'/lift/10 T 900'/5.5 T 600'= 27 miles
12/19-0/5 R 800'/lift/5.5 T 700'/0/0/0 = 10 miles :(
12/26-0/0/0/0/0/0/0= 0 miles- impinged nerve in neck, shoulder- somewhere
1/2 0/0/5 T 600'/0/5.5 T 700'/0/5.5 T 700'= 16 miles
1/9 0/6 R 800'/lift- kind of/5 T 600'/0/5.5 T 700'/5 T 600'= 21.5 miles
1/16 5.5 T 700'/lift, stair master 1 hr/0/lift, stair master 1 hr/0/lift stair master 1/2 hr/3 T500' = 8.5 miles, 2.5 hrs stair master
1/23 x-ctry sking 3 hours/3.5 T 300'/7.5 T 800'/lift/5 T 600'/6 R 800'/5 T 600'= 27 miles 3100'
1/30 lift/5 T 600'/4 T 500' /6 R 900'/lift/10 T 900'/5 T 600' = 30 miles
2/6 lift/6 R 900'/ 5 T 600'/3 T 500'/lift/12 T 1100'/6 T 800' = 32 miles
2/13 lift/5.5 R 900'/4.5 T 600'/0/lift/12 T 1100'/9 R 900' = 31 miles
2/20 lift/5.5 R 900'/stair master 1.5 hrs/x-country skiing 4 hrs/x-country skiing 6 hrs/10 T 2000'/stair master 1.5 hrs= 15.5 miles, 3.0 hrs stair master
2/27 lift/6 R 600'/5.5 T 700'/0/lift/10 T 1000'* injured calf/0= 21.5 miles
3/5 lift/0/stair master 45min/2 mile walk/3 mile walk/0/5 T 600'/ 10 T 900'= 15 miles
3/12 lift, 6 R 900', 8 T 700', 4 T 300', lift, 14 T 2000', sick= 32 miles
3/19 sick,sick,sick,sick :(, lift, 5 T 700', 10 T 1700' = 15 miles
3/26 lift,5 T 600',0, 10 T 2000',lift, 5 T 600', 10 T 1200'= 30 miles
4/2 lift, 6 T 700', 4 T 500', 0, lift, 12 T 1100', 8 T 800'= 30 miles



week 4/2 was a pretty good week, last week of training before the run :) I'll probably run 5 miles on Tues and call it good, being dam(n) careful not to twist an ankle or something dumb right before the trip!

Mike

Edited by mtwarden on 04/08/2012 14:29:34 MDT.

Art ...
(asandh) - F
Re: looong way to go :) on 11/29/2011 07:23:08 MST Print View

Mike if there is some kind of stair step machine at your gym I'd recommend spending a LOT of time on it.

Mike M
(mtwarden) - MLife

Locale: Montana
stair machine on 11/29/2011 07:47:20 MST Print View

Art- there is, it's a nice old school stair master :) I don't know how to run it, but it can't be too complicated

it gets very little use, but the few times I've seen it in use, looks like a dandy- looks similar to this

Photobucket

Mike

Art ...
(asandh) - F
2012 R2R2R Group - How to Train Hills on 11/29/2011 08:15:11 MST Print View

How to Train Hills

Mike M
(mtwarden) - MLife

Locale: Montana
how to train hills on 11/29/2011 12:44:47 MST Print View

wow

Eugene Smith
(Eugeneius) - MLife

Locale: Nuevo Mexico
keep it up. on 11/29/2011 13:06:28 MST Print View

My jaw still drops watching that video, Campbell is a goat trapped in a man's body.

I hope no one is discouraged or feeling overwhelmed right now, the point of all this isn't machismo chest pumping (not that anyone is doing so), rather encouragement and accountability in training, whatever that is to you. It is motivating to see what you all are doing in your part of the world and how you guys are progressing. If in the event things don't pan out for anyone here, myself included, there is only good that comes out of getting up daily and getting out there and pushing yourself towards a goal. In this case, there is no failure for anyone involved, we will all be spit out the other side stronger individuals whether that means running R2R2R in April or not.

Keep at it all, enjoy the process, push yourself, and stay consistent.

Art ...
(asandh) - F
Re: keep it up. on 11/29/2011 14:43:12 MST Print View

just need to train one step at a time.

Edited by asandh on 02/13/2012 20:27:13 MST.

Tom Kirchner
(ouzel) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Northwest/Sierra
Re: stair machine on 11/29/2011 17:11:40 MST Print View

"Art- there is, it's a nice old school stair master :) I don't know how to run it, but it can't be too complicated

it gets very little use, but the few times I've seen it in use, looks like a dandy- looks similar to this"

+1 big time. If you can't make it to the mountains, or hills, there is no better machine around to simulate a hill workout, for the simple reason that you lift one foot off the surface with every step, instead of having both feet glued to the pedals of the machine as is the case with all the others(Stairmaster, Elliptical Trainer, etc). Picture yourself on an escalator-same principle. You can vary the step rate from snail pace to throw-you-off-the machine when you're setting up your workout parameters, and modify it on the fly, or go with one of the machine's preprogrammed workouts. You also set the workout duration. Once you get used to the machine and want a different kind of workout, try it with a pack.

Mike M
(mtwarden) - MLife

Locale: Montana
Re: Re: stair machine on 11/29/2011 19:08:34 MST Print View

Tom- good deal :) I know I'm going to get nixed out of some running due to weather, sounds like I better familiarize myself w/ this machine. I hope to mitigate some of the missed runs w/ x country skiing and snowshoeing as well- a mild winter (unlike last year) would be most welcome

got a great run in this evening (just about had to pull out my lamp- got dark in a hurry!), my longest run @ ~ 8 miles w/ a few jim dandy hills thrown in for good measure :)

Mike

Craig W.
(xnomanx) - F - M
Stair machine on 11/29/2011 21:19:39 MST Print View

Old school stair machine: Stairs!!!

I knew I wouldn't have time for an afternoon run today so I ran on the track at the high school I teach at this morning...20 laps, going up and down the bleachers 2 times on either side of the track on every lap. I threw in 2-3 high hurdles each lap for fun as well (imagine: downed trees). I began to feel like I was actually trail running.

Eugene is right on...this is all for fun and hopefully this just helps keep everyone motivated until April. I think the worst thing anybody here could do is turn this log into a numbers competition. I, for one, am not going to the Grand Canyon to try and set a personal speed record...just want to have fun running all day.

Art ...
(asandh) - F
Various R2R2R Trip Reports on 11/30/2011 07:12:21 MST Print View

...

Edited by asandh on 02/13/2012 20:28:28 MST.

ben wood
(benwood)

Locale: flatlands of MO
ankle.... on 12/03/2011 08:48:15 MST Print View

so, if you remember my mileage last week was all of 2.
on that 2 mile run, i felt some pain in my left ankle and walked it home. It was sore for a couple of days so i thought i'd take it easy. well on thursday i twisted the same ankle a little weird on a curb, OUCH. Then last night a stupid dog came chasing my little girls (not something I have any tolerance for). So i chased it away at a full sprint. just imagine a 165lb man in a down jacket chasing a 10lb, off his rocker, jack russell terrier down the street by the christmas parade. Now that the dog was scared of me it left us alone, but.....

today i can barely walk and the ankle is all swollen, SUCK!

looks like my training is probably going to be held off till after christmas.

Mike M
(mtwarden) - MLife

Locale: Montana
Re: ankle.... on 12/03/2011 11:32:10 MST Print View

that does suck- sorry

funny you should mention ankle though, went for my run this morning and turned my ankle a little- didn't feel like much, I stopped for a second to put away a layer and suddenly it really hurt just putting my foot down. I'm about 3 miles back thinking this is going to be a long hobble out. started walking and every time I put my foot down it hurt, but slowly it started hurting less, although if I stepped on a rock or other hard object just right it gave me a crisp reminder. Eventually I started slowly (very slowly) jogging on it, then a little quicker, eventually I was near my normal speed (which is slow :)) to finish the run.

it's still sore, I've got it wrapped w/ some ice, hoping it's just a short lived injury (fingers crossed) as this would be my first weekend where I was going to get two runs in.

Tom Kirchner
(ouzel) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Northwest/Sierra
Re: Re: ankle.... on 12/03/2011 19:46:49 MST Print View

"I'm about 3 miles back thinking this is going to be a long hobble out. started walking and every time I put my foot down it hurt, but slowly it started hurting less, although if I stepped on a rock or other hard object just right it gave me a crisp reminder. Eventually I started slowly (very slowly) jogging on it, then a little quicker, eventually I was near my normal speed (which is slow :)) to finish the run."

Given that it was a minor sprain, you did exactly the right thing, Mike. Keep moving, slow at first, then gradually back to normal speed. It happens fairly often if you are running on uneven surfaces. One thing you might consider is taping it before your runs until it's completely healed, because if you go over on it a second time before then you will very likely end up with some serious damage.

Mike M
(mtwarden) - MLife

Locale: Montana
tape on 12/03/2011 20:03:02 MST Print View

Tom- thanks for the tip, I'll give that a go- I want to get in a run in tomorrow if at all possible, I was hoping this would be my first week w/ four runs (well 3 1/2 counting today :) )

Mike

Hiking Malto
(gg-man) - F
Long Run(s) Question on 12/04/2011 11:18:22 MST Print View

My goal for the weekend was to do 12 Saturday followed by 8 today. But, I had a great long run up on the AT yesterday and ended up doing 17 miles with 4k in elevation gain. I am sore today but not in pain. :) The question: given the extra mileage yesterday how should I think about my run today, my body is telling me to rest. I have never trained using the back to back long runs, are you supposed to be spent for the second run or should this run only be done when you have built yourself up enough to need the second day to get further improvement?

PS: I am getting much better at trail running, I only kicked one rock, one rolled ankle and two close calls on rolled ankles. It is also getting much more natural.

Art ...
(asandh) - F
Re: Long Run(s) Question on 12/04/2011 11:35:29 MST Print View

Great job doing 17 miles.
I would recommend an easy 3 or 4 miler the day after, simply as a rejuvenation run to help get the toxins out of your muscles.

Edited by asandh on 02/13/2012 20:30:25 MST.

Craig W.
(xnomanx) - F - M
Re: Re: Long Run(s) Question on 12/04/2011 11:47:21 MST Print View

Good advice Art.

Back-to-backs are tricky in my book; sometimes I wonder if they're harder on the body than a single, longer push. For example, compare running a 15 mile in the afternoon, followed by a 10 mile the next morning. That scenario, personally, sometimes feels harder than running, say, a single 20 followed by a rest day. It's hard for me to say which gives the better training- the single 20 helps learn to push longer, but the back-to-backs seem to be ultimately beneficial in building stronger joints, connective tissues (basically learning to recover from a beating faster)....though it seems you're potentially flirting with injury unless you're already a little seasoned at doing medium to long back-to-backs. Make sense?

Such a subjective thing...

Art ...
(asandh) - F
Re: Re: Re: Long Run(s) Question on 12/04/2011 12:06:35 MST Print View

to me, rest is the key ingredient to getting stronger, and not getting injured.

Edited by asandh on 02/13/2012 20:31:22 MST.

Mike M
(mtwarden) - MLife

Locale: Montana
ankle taping and weekly summary on 12/04/2011 13:10:18 MST Print View

does anyone have a clear, concise method (pictures please) of wrapping an ankle? if it matters, am guessing it would, the sprain is in the front of the foot and outside of the ankle.

I've made quite a mess of things w/ my taping :)

TIA

started out decently- this was the week I was going to bump my running up to 4 days; got a good first run in 8 miles- my longest, 2nd run was good as well (cold though 11 degrees!), 3rd run started good, but turned an ankle so it was about 50:50 run and walk

hit the old fashion stair master today- no doubt designed by Marquis de Sade himself! :) I was on an hour, varying the speed- it kicked my butt pretty good- I can see this as a definite life saver when the weather is unbearable- it didn't hurt my ankle at all either

Photobucket

Photobucket

Edited by mtwarden on 12/04/2011 15:15:04 MST.

Hiking Malto
(gg-man) - F
Thanks Art on 12/04/2011 17:54:52 MST Print View

I ended up doing a simple 3 mile road run this afternoon. It was amazing...... I felt better at the end of the run than I did before. I think this will have to be part of my next day routine after a tough run.

Mike,
That look seriously cold. After your post about the stairmaster I ended up finding one in the gym that I work out in while I'm traveling to CA. It was a great work out.

Edited by gg-man on 12/04/2011 18:20:06 MST.

Tom Kirchner
(ouzel) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Northwest/Sierra
Re: ankle taping and weekly summary on 12/04/2011 18:07:46 MST Print View

"does anyone have a clear, concise method (pictures please) of wrapping an ankle? if it matters, am guessing it would, the sprain is in the front of the foot and outside of the ankle."

Mike,

Google "ankle taping". There are at least 3 video demos and numerous written descriptions, with pictures. They should give you a pretty good idea of how to go about it.

Mike M
(mtwarden) - MLife

Locale: Montana
ankle taping on 12/04/2011 18:55:52 MST Print View

unfortunately there is a whole slug of them and all different :)

I think I found a nice simple one

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vGPWfuMiTtg

Tom Kirchner
(ouzel) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Northwest/Sierra
Re: ankle taping on 12/04/2011 19:36:13 MST Print View

"unfortunately there is a whole slug of them and all different :)

I think I found a nice simple one"

Yup. The one you selected is bare bones and hopefully will do the job. The 2 I watched were overly elaborate, IMO, but one thing they they both had that your selection doesn't is the vertical "stirrup" the wraps under the arch and up both sides of your leg, followed by the crossover taping that secures it and adds a bit more stability.

I'd appreciate if you let me know how it turns out, as I haven't seen this one before. Best of luck.

Nick Gatel
(ngatel) - MLife

Locale: Southern California
Re: Re: ankle taping on 12/04/2011 23:43:30 MST Print View

I am not a big fan of taping ankles and continuing to run. A sprain is an injury and IMO you need to let it heal enough until you can run without pain.

I am familiar with taping. When I was in high school I played on the basketball team for 4 years. The first 2 years we wore low top canvas shoes (this was a long time ago). Then my junior year the coach made us wear high tops to reduce injuries... and we had a lot more sprains. This is just a side note on high tops, which I know you probably were not wearing.

If you decide to tape your ankle and run, just do it for you runs. Take the tape off afterwards so you get full circulation. Oh and make sure you shave your foot first :) We used to use some sort of spray on our feet that made it less painful to take the tape off.

Good Luck.

Mike M
(mtwarden) - MLife

Locale: Montana
Re: Re: Re: ankle taping on 12/05/2011 07:38:17 MST Print View

yuppers on the shaving- luckily my wife was there to intervene before I started taping! :)

the circulation was one of the reasons I was reluctant at some of the suggested taping methods- they were encasing the entire foot in tape, the linked one above doesn't make a full circle anywhere- I might add a "stirrup" or two as suggested by Tom though

I will only have it on running (or should say attempting to run)

Mike M
(mtwarden) - MLife

Locale: Montana
NM snow on 12/05/2011 07:43:14 MST Print View

Eugene- nice pics, looks like New Mexico is looking a little like Montana :)

Mike

Craig W.
(xnomanx) - F - M
NM snow on 12/05/2011 08:51:37 MST Print View

Nice pics Eugene.

On ankle taping...If you've got to tape it to run, I think it's a sign you shouldn't be running.

Good luck to all of you with the ankle issues, hope they work themselves out and don't take too long.

. ..
(dgowler)
Training on 12/05/2011 09:00:16 MST Print View

Right on fellas! Totally encouraging to see everyone hard at er. I'm jealous of everyone with mountains in their backyard. I'm dug so far into the prairies I could watch my dog run away for 3 days. I've been hitting the river valleys to get some elevation in.

I've paired some neoprene wading socks with my minimus' and had toasty warm feet down to the mid teens, the vibram has even stayed soft enough to maintain some traction. Havn't felt any need to put the screws to them yet. Runs have been in the 3-4 mile range, pretty flat though. The toughest part has been trying to think in miles and Fahrenheit!

Art ...
(asandh) - F
Re: Re: Re: Re: ankle taping on 12/05/2011 09:09:35 MST Print View

...

Edited by asandh on 02/13/2012 20:32:25 MST.

ben wood
(benwood)

Locale: flatlands of MO
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: ankle taping on 12/05/2011 11:37:49 MST Print View

art,
i am now 33. i haven't been very active since high school and lots of skating in college until backpacking. I started running off and on at about 30. i've lost close to 30 lbs since then. anyhow it seems my body is a little slower at healing and the best thing i can do is take it easy and slow, which is sometimes hard to do. every time i've been close to an injury rest is the best thing. in my case i'm planning on holding off till after christmas, may not be necessary for some, but i'm also hoping to do a quick backpacking trip near christmas.

anyhow, just thought i'd share my thoughts as a "not necessarily in my prime but probably should be" especially considering endurance events.

all i can say is that i hope too see you and all the others at the grand canyon in april, i'll probably be the slow tattooed guy coming in really really late!

Nick Gatel
(ngatel) - MLife

Locale: Southern California
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: ankle taping on 12/05/2011 11:53:06 MST Print View

"I tend to run through injuries as long as they are minor. usually back off the normal workout to an easy "rejuvenation" level, meaning shorter and less intense.
For me, this active rest seems more beneficial than full scale immobile rest.
of course this is for minor issues."

This is where working in the gym shines. You can work certain muscles without stressing something that is injured. One thing is to listen to your body. Running through minor injuries is common, but if things don't get better soon, time to re-evaluate. One common running problem is shin splints that turn into stress fractures.

Mike M
(mtwarden) - MLife

Locale: Montana
injuries on 12/05/2011 12:57:11 MST Print View

I think there is a lot more folks going into the camp of light use for minor (emphasis on minor) injuries vs total rest. It makes some sense as the light use should be promoting blood flow into the effected area. I had a calf injury earlier in the year that I initially used RICE, but started walking with the next day and within in a couple days slowly jogging, ditto on a groin pull a couple of months later.

You certainly need to be listening to your body and every injury is different (as is the way individuals respond to them), but I think there is some validity in light use with minor injuries.

Nick I agree, if running is out of the question- then there are likely other options available at the gym so you can still be reaping some exercise benefits even if injured. I was encouraged that the stairmaster machine had no ill effect on my ankle :)

Eugene Smith
(Eugeneius) - MLife

Locale: Nuevo Mexico
"2012 R2R2R Group - Training Log's" on 12/05/2011 13:03:35 MST Print View

Lick those wounds folks. I'm hoping you all recover nicely in the next couple weeks.

Nick Gatel
(ngatel) - MLife

Locale: Southern California
Re: injuries on 12/05/2011 13:25:37 MST Print View

Mike,

When my son was a junior in high school he ended up with stress fractures in both shins before the cross country season even started. He was unable to run at all (Doctor's orders). So he worked out in the gym for almost 3 months. His first race was the league cross country semi-finals. He did somewhat poorly in that race probably because he had not raced in several months. The next week he won the league championship and broke the course record (these were 5K races). Then in the spring the first 3 races of the track season he posted the fastest high school times in the nation in the 800, 1600 and 3200 meters. So in a sense the gym work out was probably more beneficial than actually running. Of course not getting to run drove him batty, but his coach put together an excellent gym program for him. He went from a pretty good runner to an elite high school runner because of the alternate training program. One side note was that his groin muscles developed some problems. Bigger muscles and not as much range of motion as was needed. So mid-way through the track season a serious groin pull knocked him out of competition for most of the rest of the track season. He did make it to state finals in the 1600, but did so-so. The next year (senior year) he finally put it all together and came in 2nd at the state finals for both cross country and track. I guess the moral of the story is that for every action there is a reaction. The difficulty is figuring it all out. But 100% rest is not necessarily needed or even the best path. Also very competitive running is hard on the body, because you are pushing your limits to win. But taking the racing intensity down a notch is beneficial as we get older.

So we just need to know/learn when to back off to some degree. That is why for older runners I like to see a lot of base work, the intervals and other higher intensity workouts need to be carefully done. As we get older, it takes longer for the body to heal.

I sure am enjoying following everyone's progress. Makes me want to do join the trip, but I have a problem with races; I have to win or I am unhappy :) and I can't compete with you young bucks. You all may not think it is not a race, but everyone is running and someone will finish first :)

Art ...
(asandh) - F
Re: Re: injuries on 12/05/2011 13:34:21 MST Print View

Nick I understand your competiveness.
You can always just shoot for a PR.

Edited by asandh on 01/30/2012 19:13:58 MST.

Art ...
(asandh) - F
joint & tendon rejuvenation supplements on 12/05/2011 13:38:30 MST Print View

...

Edited by asandh on 02/13/2012 20:33:24 MST.

Nick Gatel
(ngatel) - MLife

Locale: Southern California
Re: Re: Re: injuries on 12/05/2011 13:50:30 MST Print View

Art,

When you are in your 60's PRs are hard to come by unless you are running a new race :)

To be honest, my goal everyday is to (1) wake up above ground, (2) have a great relationship with my wife, and (3) enjoy my hobbies to a somewhat high level of competency.

I don't worry about #1. #2 and #3 are high priorities.

Tom Kirchner
(ouzel) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Northwest/Sierra
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: ankle taping on 12/05/2011 17:33:13 MST Print View

"I tend to run through injuries as long as they are minor. usually back off the normal workout to an easy "rejuvenation" level, meaning shorter and less intense."

+1 Let pain be your guide. And keep it slow and short until you are back to normal.

"Re. ankle taping, I'd say it depends on if you are taping your ankle simply as a preventative, or you need it to get through your workout. you just need to listen to your body and not be stubborn."

Again, +1. I used to use it to be able to keep running, as long as the sprain was minor, and preventatively for races like The Dipsea or running really rough trails when training for same. If the sprain is serious, the pain should be enough to keep you from running on it, tape or no tape. If in doubt, don't run. Also, this might be a good time to get up close and personal with your local friendly Step Mill. The one thing you absolutely must avoid is going over on that ankle again. If you go over on it far enough, you risk knocking a bone chip off the inside head of the tibia, and that will put you down for a good long time, with possible surgery to remove it. Benn there, done that. Don't go there, Mike. Error on the side of caution. No single race/run, R2R2R included, is worth messing yourself up for the long run. If you've got good insurance, and the sprain is too sore to run on, this might not be a bad time to consult a good sports medicine physician or podiatrist, whichever has the better reputation in your locale.

Tom Kirchner
(ouzel) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Northwest/Sierra
Re: Re: Re: Re: injuries on 12/05/2011 17:37:52 MST Print View

"When you are in your 60's PRs are hard to come by unless you are running a new race :)"

Tell that to Clyde Davies. ;-)

Mike M
(mtwarden) - MLife

Locale: Montana
injury on 12/06/2011 14:40:33 MST Print View

so far so good :) I taped up my ankle (per the Mulligan method) and took a 5 mile trail run today. Was being extra mindful of foot placement and not going all out; had a couple of occasions that reminded me that I did in fact have a minor injury to my ankle, but nothing too bad at all.

I'll continue to tape my ankle and take it a little easy, but knock on wood- I think it's going work out :)

Nick Gatel
(ngatel) - MLife

Locale: Southern California
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: injuries on 12/06/2011 14:50:23 MST Print View

Who is Clyde Davies? A quick Google search did not turn up anything running-wise.

Tom Kirchner
(ouzel) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Northwest/Sierra
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: injuries on 12/06/2011 17:44:49 MST Print View

"Who is Clyde Davies? A quick Google search did not turn up anything running-wise."

My spelling mistake. It should be Clive Davies.

http://www.johnhancock.com/bostonmarathon/mediaguide/alltimetop10seniors.html

He ran 2:36 something, but I haven't found a link to it yet. It's out there somewhere. However, it was recently eclipsed by a Japanese fellow who ran something like 2:36:40. Can't recall his name offhand.

Nick Gatel
(ngatel) - MLife

Locale: Southern California
Re: Clive Davies on 12/06/2011 18:07:03 MST Print View

Okay, I'm friggin impressed!

When I was young I was a competitive runner. No way I can get any where close to those times. I have always continued to run a little, I just enjoy it. It was more fun when I had more hair to feel the wind blowing through my hair though :)

A few times I have started to train to run some master races, but then I start training too seriously as I am looking at age group times and then it becomes difficult to find all the time needed to be truly competitive. So I just do my own thing and never enter a race. That is how my brain is wired. Same in business, I always need to be the top producer. When my kids were little their mother wouldn't let me play Chutes and Ladders with them because I always won. The good news is that when my son finally beat me at Chess, he knew he truly won.

Good thing we don't have backpacking races, I wouldn't enjoy it any more.

But I am enjoying the kids planning and training for next year.

Tom Kirchner
(ouzel) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Northwest/Sierra
Re: Re: Clive Davies on 12/06/2011 20:14:08 MST Print View

" It was more fun when I had more hair to feel the wind blowing through my hair though :)"

I'm bald as a billiard ball, and I always rationalized it by telling myself it gave me an extra edge running into the wind. ;=)

"A few times I have started to train to run some master races, but then I start training too seriously as I am looking at age group times and then it becomes difficult to find all the time needed to be truly competitive. So I just do my own thing and never enter a race. That is how my brain is wired."

You're probably better off that way, Nick. Running competitively is always a delicate balancing act between being honed and being injured, and when you get into your 60's you're courting injuries or just plain wear and tear that could prematurely end your hiking career as well. That's the gist of a conversation I had with a great rehab specialist coming off IT band therapy when I was, guess what, 61. He told me, "I can probably get you back on the road but, given your years of hard running, it would probably shorten your time in the mountains considerably. Your choice." After some thought, I reluctantly gave up running. I figured I'd already gotten my money's worth there. I have never regretted that decision, although occasionally a really good runner comes floating by, seemingly effortlessly, and something atavistic stirs deep within and I get a lump in my throat. "Once a runner" is about the best I can describe the feeling.

Mike M
(mtwarden) - MLife

Locale: Montana
secret weapon on 12/07/2011 18:15:54 MST Print View

Photobucket

Eugene Smith
(Eugeneius) - MLife

Locale: Nuevo Mexico
"2012 R2R2R Group - Training Log's" on 12/07/2011 20:42:08 MST Print View

Awesome Mike!

Whatever keeps you in the game right? I'm not sure I would have it in me to take a drill and screws to my kicks. I have a pair of Kahtoola Microspikes that would fit you perfectly (Size L). If you're interested in them let me know and we can arrange something as long as you promise to put a point back in them when you're done. ;-)

Mike M
(mtwarden) - MLife

Locale: Montana
Re: "2012 R2R2R Group - Training Log's" on 12/08/2011 08:03:51 MST Print View

Eugene- these shoes are on their downward slide, I'd be more hesitant w/ a new pair :) if these don't provide enough grip I just might hit you up on your offer- microspikes are probably something I should invest regardless

in other injury news :( my right achilles tendon is pretty aggravated- it started w/ an audible clicking I noticed when walking around the house- no pain however, now it's ramped up a bit and causing some pain- not shooting pain, just an aggravating pain

I started icing it last night and will continue w/ icing- also taking some ibuprofen, I've got two days of rest scheduled in- will reassess on Saturday

Mike

Art ...
(asandh) - F
Re: Re: "2012 R2R2R Group - Training Log's" on 12/08/2011 08:20:19 MST Print View

...

Edited by asandh on 02/13/2012 20:34:32 MST.

Dan Hewins
(hewinsd) - F

Locale: Chihuahuan Desert
Run log on 12/08/2011 20:38:08 MST Print View

Having some experience running in a few mountain ultras that pack in the climbs, I feel that time on the feet is a better index of how we'll fare in the canyon not mileage so much. That being said the two aren't independent of one another either. Vertical gain and descent conditioning are also a big part of this sort of run. If this is a problem look to Michael Wardian for inspiration the guy has a treadmill in his basement and will bump up the incline while his kids play and watch TV with him. He seems to have fared well against a lot of guys who run in the actual mountains.

Anyhow, I keep a pretty steady run log on DailyMile, so I'll go back and start from a few weeks ago:

Key:
M/T/W/Th/F/S/Su = Total miles; Time
##: miles
T:Trail
R:Road
Tempo: Pace to slight discomfort, but small talk is still possible
(####'):Total Climbing (estimated based on back logs; plan to log this more carefully in the coming months)



11/14 - 9(1250')T/7(1100')T/8(1200')T/8(1200')T/0/13(400')R/13(400')R = 57mi; 7h 36m
11/21 - 12 (1200')/8(1200')/8(1200')/0/7(1100')/13(500')R/13(500')R = 61mi; 7h 55m
11/28 - 7(1100')/8(1200')/0/3(100')/6(500')/15T(1000')/22T(2500') = 60mi; 8h 51m
12/5 - 0/8(1200')T/9(400')TempoR/9(400')RTempo)/10(1000')T/16(2000'')T/12(1000')T = 64mi; 8h 36m
12/12 - 5(700')T/0/4(100)R/0/0/0/28mi(1400')R/T Marathon Fat-ass (3:53;1st place Overall) = 37mi; 5h 04m (marathon taper & holiday travel week)
12/19 - 0/0/0/0/5R(negligible)/4TempoR(600')/4TempoR(600')/0 = 20 mi; 2h 50m - Taking some time to recover from Sunday's Marathon hoping to pick up late this week and start to log training in earnest for the R2R2R in January.
12/26 - 0/5(700')T/6(800')T/9(1000')T/8(950')T/8(950')T/9(1200')T = 45mi; 6h 19m
01/02 - 7.5(900')T/7.5(900')T/7.5(850')T/0/5(1000')T/10.5(1200')T/7(2500')T - 45mi; 6h 44m
1/9 - 0/0/0/5.5(900')T/6.5(1000')T+4(800')T// = mi; h m

Training Log Here

Edited by hewinsd on 02/25/2012 15:41:22 MST.

Dan Hewins
(hewinsd) - F

Locale: Chihuahuan Desert
Ankle on 12/08/2011 21:12:12 MST Print View

I read a little of the ankle talk and my advice would be rest and ice. A few years back (and in my haste) I ran a relay segment on an already sore ankle. I ended up tearing a tendon at its insertion point to the foot. The worst part of this was I still had a mile to run before I could hand off to my teammate - I clenched my jaw and pushed through the pain, but I ended up paying for it with a few weeks on a crutch. I ended up doing a lot of laps in the pool to keep active. Taping is good for minor injuries or assisting in alignment, but when you're really hurting the best bet is to take few extra rest days and let things rebuild... Heal well.

Mike M
(mtwarden) - MLife

Locale: Montana
week of 12/5 on 12/11/2011 15:01:48 MST Print View

I finally hit four runs and 20 miles! :)

my ankle feels like it's 100%, my achilles feels better, but not 100%

I found a way to tape for achilles tendonitis- seems to help, I'm going to get some of the Kinesio tape as it looks like it might work better than athletic tape

one of my runs was a road run (actually the side of the road off of the asphalt) that includes a pretty decent long hill, pretty slow going up, but down is another story- actually felt like I was running :)

Dan Hewins
(hewinsd) - F

Locale: Chihuahuan Desert
KT Tape on 12/11/2011 17:56:08 MST Print View

Hey Mike - Glad to hear you're feeling better. I use KT tape whenever my patellar tendonitis flairs up. Here are a few things I've learned about it: Make sure you get a fresh roll (I have had good luck buying from "Isokinetics" a seller on Amazon). You don't need to shave the area of application, but what you really do need to do is put it on right (before bed is usually when I apply it) and let the tape cure. I have had problems with it slowly coming unstuck if I put it on within an hour or two of a run. If you pat it dry after showers it should survive for ~3 days. I've also trimmed strips if they seem too long for a certain application - make sure if you trim it that you round the edges. I also suggest watching the specific application videos on the KT tape site or youtube. Happy taping!

Edited by hewinsd on 12/11/2011 18:15:34 MST.

Mike M
(mtwarden) - MLife

Locale: Montana
tape on 12/11/2011 18:14:38 MST Print View

Dan- thanks for the tips, I did watch a couple of their videos- the tape looks like it forms better than athletic tape

I see they have a H2O rocktape as well, same price, might stay on better w/ running in the snow, showering, etc????

of course I am deeply drawn to the flying skull tape! :)

Photobucket


Mike

Dan Hewins
(hewinsd) - F

Locale: Chihuahuan Desert
tape on 12/11/2011 18:26:36 MST Print View

Mike- Yes, the tape is supposed to have the same elasticity constant as skin, so in theory when applied correctly (basically how tight you lay the tape down; see vids) it will stretch along with your skin and provide some extra support. It has worked for me in a few spots when I've needed it. I almost always apply the tape below my knee caps if I am racing a marathon or longer rather than have issues mid-race. It has a barely there feel.

I have always relied on the "KT" brand because that is the first brand I tried. KT and the Kinesio brand seem to be the companies that are most popular and visible at competitions (i.e., sponsors etc). I know a lot of tri-atheletes/swimmers use KT, but they may also reapply daily. I have not heard of Rocktape, but that doesn't mean they're not just as good.

Happy running!

Edited by hewinsd on 12/11/2011 18:27:38 MST.

Craig W.
(xnomanx) - F - M
Re: week of 12/5 on 12/11/2011 20:44:52 MST Print View

Good on you for hitting that next level Mike. Keep it up, stay healthy and uninjured.

ben wood
(benwood)

Locale: flatlands of MO
Re: week of 12/5 on 12/12/2011 13:24:26 MST Print View

nice mike, good to hear. Now i'm the only one who is still sidelined.

do you have a link for the wrapping method you are using? i'd like to give it a try.

been keeping up with RICE, although I still have to be up and about so its not total rest, and i think that's my main problem. Every day at some point i put some real stress on the ankle and it hurts like a b***h again for an hour.

Mike M
(mtwarden) - MLife

Locale: Montana
Re: Re: week of 12/5 on 12/12/2011 17:11:08 MST Print View

ben- that sucks!

been this is what I used, called the "Mulligan" wrap

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TEjKhf-qDJU

sounds like my sprain was a lot milder than yours, there are several other ankle taping methods that provide more support- they might be more advantageous for you????

if anyone gets mild achilles tendonitis this is the method I used in taping for it- I used regular athletic tape the KT or rocktape looks like it would be better yet

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dLtD8zqZ_m0

mike

Craig W.
(xnomanx) - F - M
Training with Purpose on 12/14/2011 19:30:31 MST Print View

On what is perhaps my favorite blog, The Logic of Long Distance, Jeff recently posted a followup to an earlier post entitled "Rethinking How to Train". I think any athlete could benefit from the wisdom imparted here, but especially (obviously) runners.
Part 1:
http://thelogicoflongdistance.blogspot.com/2011/10/rethinking-how-to-train.html
Part 2:
http://thelogicoflongdistance.blogspot.com/2011/12/rethinking-how-to-train-continued.html

One thing I have gleaned from the two of these posts, that I have been trying to incorporate in my runs: Purpose.

I often (maybe too often) run simply to run. No real goal, no game plan, no set idea about what I will be training for on that day, or how that particular run fits into the bigger picture. Aside from the obvious- general fitness- I run to run, because I love it, because it makes me feel good.

As of late, I have been thinking quite a bit about purpose when running and have tried to develop a new habit. Prior to each run, as I lace shoes, rummage around for my ever disappearing favorite beanie, I try to bring one question into focus: What am I running for today?

The answer shifts, but lately, it has simply been to maintain a base (my "real" training for the R2R2R will begin January). Even so, while reaffirming such a general goal, it brings things into focus and becomes a sort of meditation that in turn brings purpose to the run: I am doing this today so that my body will be prepared to accept harder work in the months to come.

It may sound small, but I find it helps a great deal.

As an amateur athlete, it is very easy to get lost in self-doubt, laziness, excuses. Nobody forces us to do this. If I don't wake up at 5AM for my Saturday morning long run nobody cares. In fact, I have every reason not to go; cooking pancakes for the kids, sleeping in, coffee in the backyard with my wife...

Every runner knows it can be a tough to get out the door at times. It's hot, it's cold, it's raining, I'm too full, I'm too hungry, I'm too....I think sometimes we just run on faith, perhaps stubbornness, or even stupidity.

But by incorporating these short meditations, bringing my attention back to the bigger picture and how this specific run fits into it, the first steps are that much easier.

Edited by xnomanx on 12/14/2011 20:38:24 MST.

Mike M
(mtwarden) - MLife

Locale: Montana
Re: Training with Purpose on 12/15/2011 12:57:12 MST Print View

thanks Craig :) I really liked this quote "Training and training effect is series of applying stress and your base fitness level going down; and taking recovery and let the base fitness to come up and go beyond. It's the wave of this activity."

I too am attempting to get a decent base (got a long ways to go!), but I do try to incorporate purpose as well- one I'm trying to vary things- mileage, time on the ground, terrain, elevation gain/loss, etc

I'm also trying to insure that I don't get ahead of myself (riding the wave too long) and getting decent recovery time-injuries seem to be insuring this thus far! :(

Lastly I'm making sure it's fun and interesting, finding new trails and making new loops, running off trail, taking in the landscape and wildlife, relaxing

I think as the mileage increases these will become even more important

Mike M
(mtwarden) - MLife

Locale: Montana
microspikes on 12/17/2011 13:39:53 MST Print View

just got a $20 off Moosejaw coupon and purchased a pair of Microspikes :)

I'm thinking, depending on conditions obviously, that they might be handy to have in the pack for the run in April?

Eugene Smith
(Eugeneius) - MLife

Locale: Nuevo Mexico
"2012 R2R2R Group - Training Log's" on 12/17/2011 14:28:37 MST Print View

Great Mike.

I'm hoping that Spikes won't be necessary in mid April, but you never know. You'll get some good use out of them either way.

We've received more moisture than usual for this time of year in southern NM, but projected long term climate predictions for our region (AZ,TX,NM) are forecasting above average temps and below normal precipitation.

Craig W.
(xnomanx) - F - M
Microspikes Rock. on 12/17/2011 19:51:06 MST Print View

I'll be packin' my steel if there's word of ice out there.

Based on where you live and what you do Mike, I'm surprised you haven't tried them sooner. I think you'll be impressed. Nice and grippy, flexible enough to run easily, but won't trip you or bleed you like a crampon can.

Edited by xnomanx on 12/17/2011 19:51:38 MST.

Art ...
(asandh) - F
Re: Microspikes Rock. on 12/18/2011 08:03:12 MST Print View

I would guess there's a slim chance of needing microspikes for the R2R2R on April 14.

Edited by asandh on 02/13/2012 20:36:32 MST.

Mike M
(mtwarden) - MLife

Locale: Montana
week of 12/12 summary on 12/18/2011 17:11:19 MST Print View

re microspikes- hope we don't need them, but nice to have them just in case :) I'll no doubt get use out of them here

my week of 12/12 was very good, a couple of firsts for me- first run of 10 miles (previous long was 8) and first week to break 20 miles (got 20 even last week)

the weather for this time of year has been stellar (Sat and Sun both in the 40's!), I've done a little exploring and have added some more "trail" to my existing loops- much of it is off trail, just kind of fun running new places and making new loops

pretty much injury free this week, so that's good

anywho still got a long way to go, but am slowly and steadily chipping at it

question on training, I'm going into my 5th "official" week of training- is there a point I should consider cycling down for a week? I'm definitely a little on the sore side, no injuries, but sore

also Thom I see you have 12/12 and 12/19 marked down as injury- what happened?

Mike

Craig W.
(xnomanx) - F - M
Recovery on 12/18/2011 22:00:29 MST Print View

A cycle down week is not a bad idea, especially given the fact that you're doing a lot of "firsts" in your training. Training wears you down; ideally, your rest is when you heal and get stronger. But that won't happen if there is no rest. All your gains will be for not if you get hurt or burn out. While a cycle down week may feel counterproductive because you're itching to get the miles in, a mellow week every 3 or four is great insurance against getting taken out of the game for much longer.

I'm coming off six consecutive days and 41.5 miles, not to mention breaking concrete foundation for about 4 hours today. Seriously looking forward to getting some sleep and doing NOTHING physical tomorrow, not even my morning pushups.

Art ...
(asandh) - F
Re: week of 12/12 summary on 12/19/2011 07:15:52 MST Print View

...

Edited by asandh on 02/13/2012 20:37:40 MST.

Art ...
(asandh) - F
Re: Recovery on 12/19/2011 07:41:12 MST Print View

Craig
heavy construction work is great cross training, great choice !

Mike M
(mtwarden) - MLife

Locale: Montana
Re: Recovery on 12/19/2011 07:41:59 MST Print View

thanks gents! I think I'll cycle down this week, backing it off ~ 20%, then bump it up the following week ( God willing :) )

Art- no worries about me going slow, no hare here, all turtle :)

Mike

Craig W.
(xnomanx) - F - M
Re: 2012 R2R2R Group - Training Logs on 01/02/2012 13:58:37 MST Print View

How's the running folks? I've been pretty screwed...read my log.

Thom Darrah
(thomdarrah) - MLife

Locale: Southern Oregon
2012 R2R2R Group - Training Log's on 01/02/2012 14:19:54 MST Print View

I'm very screwed as I've developed a left leg shin splint type injury. Two plus weeks off and the leg felt well healed, one flat five mile run and the pain was back with a vengeance.

The R2R2R is a personal priority and I will likely reschedule for a fall attempt as I see no way to accommodate the current date for the Group run. I have vented my frustration to Eugene and others which helps but does little to lessen the frustration and disappointment.

Art ...
(asandh) - F
Runners Down ! - 2012 R2R2R Group - Training Log's on 01/02/2012 14:54:15 MST Print View

Sorry to hear you guys aren't doing too well.

Edited by asandh on 02/13/2012 20:38:41 MST.

Ron Bell
(mountainlaureldesigns) - F - M

Locale: USA
Re: Runners Down ! - 2012 R2R2R Group - Training Log's on 01/02/2012 17:33:37 MST Print View

OK-

I'VE BEEN LURKING ON THIS THREAD AND I AM VERY EXCITED.

No way for me to know if I can make it that weekend until much closer , BUT- I am training for it and stepped it up to 4-0-6-7-6-0-7 runs last week that included some 1,200ft elevation gain hills.

My local 26.2 is the week after that date and has Total Elevation Gain/Loss=7,234 ft. SO- I should be ready if it works out. We'll see.

Maybe a 20% chance for me right now.

Dan Hewins
(hewinsd) - F

Locale: Chihuahuan Desert
of late on 01/02/2012 18:10:37 MST Print View

Sorry to hear of the injuries - they're a real bummer, but come with the territory I guess... As per my log, I am coming off a hilly road/trail marathon (+2mi) race about 2-weeks ago and am feeling pretty well recovered. After the race I wasn't dealing with many aches (minor calf strain ~2d active recovery cleared it up), but I was feeling seriously depleted (calories deficit). I nearly bonked on a short trail run that I usually breeze through -- luckily I had a gel in my handheld. This is a greater surprise when I consider all the hand made chocolates and homemade cookies and cakes I've been snacking on... I am thinking this is in someway related to racing and the general hustle and bustle of the holidays - but who knows. I logged in the 40some mile range (about average when I am not in-training) this past week and feel strong again. Most importantly of late I've been enjoying my daily runs mostly (re)exploring the extensive forest single track around my hometown, which is a big change from the rocky terrain of southern New Mexico. Hope everyone can find some rest and heal up pronto.

Mike M
(mtwarden) - MLife

Locale: Montana
Re: Runners Down ! - 2012 R2R2R Group - Training Log's on 01/02/2012 19:25:29 MST Print View

add me to the down list :( I think I have pinched (impinged) nerve somewhere in my neck area- not really sure. The pain moves around, at night I have to be very careful not to sleep on my left side (side that has been hurting) as my shoulder will scream out in pain in short order. During the day the pain will often move from shoulder to my upper arm, occasionally down as far as my upper forearm.

I went on a three mile hike today w/ the wife, my left tricep felt knotted the entire time (and even now as I type). They've given me muscle relaxants (two different kinds now) which don't seem to help very much. Also some potent form of Ibuprofen, which doesn't seem to be helping much either. I originally passed on pain pills (that was an error!), I got some now, but only taking them at night.

how I got my injury is big question mark, could very well be unrelated to running.

I'm not throwing in the towel yet, I'm going to give a run a try tomorrow and hope this thing (whatever it is) moves on

Eugene Smith
(Eugeneius) - MLife

Locale: Nuevo Mexico
"2012 R2R2R Group - Training Log's" on 01/02/2012 20:21:42 MST Print View

I empathize with you Mike and Thom, injury setbacks in a training cycle are frustrating, keep your spirits up and hopefully your bodies follow suit! You both should know that I selfishly want to share a few fist pumps with the both of you, so I'm still keeping my bony fingers crossed that I'll meet both of you in April.

@ Ron,

It would be great to meet you and share some miles, keep us posted as we draw closer.

14 weeks folks!

Craig W.
(xnomanx) - F - M
Re: "2012 R2R2R Group - Training Log's" on 01/02/2012 20:30:20 MST Print View

Just came in from an easy 5K and I think I've finally got this illness kicked. Seriously looking forward to my first running week of 2012. Hope everyone gets well soon.

Ron, it would be great to have you out with us, hope your training goes well.

Hiking Malto
(gg-man) - F
Current Training Status on 01/03/2012 08:39:44 MST Print View

Reail bummer to hear some of the training challenges of the group. Hopefully things will pick up with the new year.

My recent training has been very mixed. It will be hard to pick up from my training log but I had my toughest workout to data about a week ago. It was 6 miles of steps that left me feeling pretty whooped for the next week. My legs felt deleted in a similiar fashion as after my first marathon. What did I learn? Don't over do it! The last four days I have had some decent runs in the 10-15 mile range but I have had a mental weakness in trying to push myself beyond the 15-20 mile range. It may be my body telling my mind to take it easy, that sounds so much better than mental weakness. Have a few minor pains in my ankles but I'm still in one piece.

Eugene Smith
(Eugeneius) - MLife

Locale: Nuevo Mexico
"2012 R2R2R Group - Training Log's" on 01/03/2012 09:02:35 MST Print View

Greg,

Awesome, you're rollin'!

ben wood
(benwood)

Locale: flatlands of MO
those who are out... on 01/03/2012 09:29:28 MST Print View

bummer for those that won't be able to make it. I'm still battling that decision myself, but was still hoping to meet some of you.

Art ...
(asandh) - F
Re: Current Training Status on 01/03/2012 13:05:20 MST Print View

...

Edited by asandh on 02/13/2012 20:39:30 MST.

Eugene Smith
(Eugeneius) - MLife

Locale: Nuevo Mexico
"2012 R2R2R Group - Training Log's" on 01/04/2012 07:43:28 MST Print View

Agreed Art.

I'm beginning to shift my the expectations and goals in my weekly runs, which has been difficult mentally as I'm one to judge progress and fitness by my weekly mileage and tend to feel like I'm slacking if I'm under 40 miles a week or so.

On Monday I went out and did a short run of about 5 miles with ~1,200' of climbing and equal descent and was out for almost 1 hour.

Yesterday I ran for an hour during my lunch break and got in another ~1,000-~1,200' of climbing.

Today I'm pulling a double and my goal is to get in about 2k+ in combined vertical and run for about 2hrs. One thing that helps me to not be crazy strict on the miles is the absence of a GPS watch and not running road. I know the rough distance of all my trail routes and the total elevation gain/loss so it's easy for me to just check my watch at the trailhead and not judge my mileage, pace, etc. while I'm out running and punch back in when I get back to the trailhead.

The biggest challenge for me Art is the absence of any long, slow climbing for any extended period of time. The nearest long climb in excess of 1500' is a 25min drive away and I don't make that drive regularly cause it's horrendous on my Land Cruiser's gas tank. What I've been doing is running repeats on a closer route that has a total elevation gain of about 800', but this route is steeper than what we'll be running at the Grand Canyon.

What are your thoughts Art on the benefit of doing short/intense climbing during training, run in a repeat fashion? This will be a large proportion of my climbing training over the next 3 months.

Art ...
(asandh) - F
Hills - "2012 R2R2R Group - Training Log's" on 01/04/2012 08:03:37 MST Print View

...

Edited by asandh on 02/13/2012 20:40:32 MST.

Art ...
(asandh) - F
629,800 feet - 2012 R2R2R Group on 01/04/2012 13:51:12 MST Print View

629,800 feet
that's the amount of elevation gain Anton Krupicka did in his workouts for all of 2011.

and he was injured and on crutches much of the year.

Eugene Smith
(Eugeneius) - MLife

Locale: Nuevo Mexico
krupicka on 01/04/2012 14:12:02 MST Print View

Wow! Krupicka is just plain nuts and obsessive! That is a tremendous amount of vertical, blows my mind how disciplined and consistent he is on his Green Mtn muse. What is more commendable to me is how on the other end of the spectrum are well rounded older runners like Dave Mackey who can hold down post graduate medical studies, work, run half the weekly volume, move around the country, full time daddy duty, rock climb some.....and still hand it to the elite ultra guys who are the ultrarunning equivalent of "surf bum" bachelors really (Roes, Krupicka, Jones) .

Do you think Krupicka will have a good showing at Hardrock in 6 months? I bet he'll still do really well despite this chronic shin injury he keeps exacerbating. Btw, Eric Payne (*who may join us in April) got a spot in Hardrock this summer, he's all jazzed.

Thanks for the response Art on the hill repeats, i'll be sticking with that over the next few months and doing my best to avoid burnout.

Eugene Smith
(Eugeneius) - MLife

Locale: Nuevo Mexico
what I meant.... on 01/04/2012 14:20:17 MST Print View

Hope it doesn't come across like I'm calling those elites bums.....they're obviously far greater athletes than i'll ever aspire to and inspiring. I respect them tremendously......I just think getting home after a long run and changing diapers and being a husband (Mackey) is more respectable than getting home and recovering all day while updating your ultra blog before the second run of the day.

Now

b s
(smyth) - F
Re: Hills - "2012 R2R2R Group - Training Log's" on 01/04/2012 14:43:00 MST Print View

I've been watching the R2R2R threads with great interest for a few weeks. Living in downtown Philly though does not lend itself well to hill training (nevermind at altitude). It's a 25-minute drive to find 300-feet of vertical and forget about finding 1,000+ feet sustained on anything but the weekends. So it's good to hear that some of you also face similar challenges elsewhere. I had this notion that most of you, like Craig W., had a mountain range in your back yard.

I'll continue to watch and continue to train and if nothing else, will be more prepared for the shorter races I had planned here in the northeast this spring. As much as I'd love to be a part of the R2R2R, I'd be foolish to think I'm ready for something of this magnitude right now. We'll see how the next few months go though. You guys have been an inspiration though and I've appreciated the training insight you've provided.

____________________________________________________________________

I'm out.

Edited by smyth on 02/03/2012 19:16:28 MST.

Thom Darrah
(thomdarrah) - MLife

Locale: Southern Oregon
krupicka on 01/04/2012 14:43:30 MST Print View

"he'll still do really well despite this chronic shin injury"

You mean I'm not the only runner dealing with a bad shin injury? So much for that excuse!

Dan Hewins
(hewinsd) - F

Locale: Chihuahuan Desert
Philly/MidAtlantic Running & Elites on 01/04/2012 16:20:13 MST Print View

As a native to southeastern Pennsylvania, I can relate to the frustration to the lack of really big climbs and would probably have said that there's no alternative to being able to train in the big mountains until I paid attention to Michael Wardian's UROC run (I realize this was no Hardrock). I do however see ways to get in some good training in the region. I know there are several runners and teams (Mountain Peak Fitness) that head west and do well at some mountain races (having run along side of them at times). I also would suggest looking at the training of guys like Neal Gorman, Michael Wardian (if you can stomach treadmilling up hill), Rachel and Sandi Nypaver, Sabrina Moran and the VA Happy Trails Running Club. Don't let the lack of picturesque mountains dissuade you from giving something like a R2R2R a shot. Also if you haven't I'd look into the NJ trail series races they're usually a good mix of terrain and a lot of experienced runners show up.

Some of the year end numbers that I have been reading on various running blogs are out of this world... The sport of ultra running is starting to grow and elites have to put in a lot of hours, run tons of volume and rack up the vertical. I still think it is pretty cool that we can mingle at the start of a race with the elites, but that would probably be the last time I'd see them all day at a race...

Edited by hewinsd on 01/04/2012 16:46:16 MST.

Mike M
(mtwarden) - MLife

Locale: Montana
back in the hunt (knock on wood) on 01/04/2012 18:01:41 MST Print View

don't want to jinx myself, but looks like I might be back in the hunt- still have neck/shoulder/arm pain, but not near as severe

tested it out this evening w/ a 5 mile trail run and so far so good :)

I got to thinking quite a bit how I might have hurt myself, could have been a myriad of things, but it did happen after my 10 mile run (my longest) and I was wearing a hydration pack, I sort of remember having a little discomfort in the neck and shoulders (much like a long hike w/ a heavier pack)

has anyone ever had any similar trouble w/ a hydration pack? like I said, it could have been something else, but I might just stick w/ a waist pack for the time being

David Thomas
(DavidinKenai) - MLife

Locale: North Woods. Far North.
Re: back in the hunt (knock on wood) on 01/04/2012 18:32:57 MST Print View

I've had back problems from a pack. Back in my college days when the cool thing was to wear it over one shoulder AND as an engineering student, I had a lot of big books. I stopped wearing it that way and the problem went away.

Maybe try some runs with no pack? Can you stash your water on your route, or just chug beforehand? Just to see if having no pack helps.

Dan Hewins
(hewinsd) - F

Locale: Chihuahuan Desert
Re: back in the hunt (knock on wood) on 01/04/2012 18:46:07 MST Print View

That is great news Mike! What kind of pack are you running with - is it fitted for running? On the rare occasion that I run with a pack I wear the Ultimate Direction Wasp and I've never encountered any issues... I am pretty much a handheld convert and have been looking into a "Krissy" vest (as in Krissy Moehl) of late - basically a small pack to carry foods, a wind shell etc. while fluids are held in hand. It may be an option to take some weight off your back.
The two options for these types of vests are the Nathan #028 and the UltrAspire Surge.

Craig W.
(xnomanx) - F - M
Back in the hunt (knock on wood) on 01/04/2012 18:58:47 MST Print View

A friend that's somewhat new to running just came off a medium-ish (11.5 mile) run with me and commented on neck/shoulder tension, saying soreness there was often worse than in the legs after long runs. I remember having issues with this when I started, really sore neck/shoulders after my first road marathon, less so now though. I think people carry a lot of tension there without knowing it...running with shoulders shrugged and neck tight. Do this for an hour or more and you'll likely feel it, possibly even pinch a nerve. Make a conscious effort to keep the upper body nice and relaxed, arms and hands loose, shoulders dropped. I remember a coach once saying to keep the face nice and relaxed, smile even, because the body will follow.

Mike M
(mtwarden) - MLife

Locale: Montana
pack on 01/04/2012 18:59:59 MST Print View

the pack I've been using is the Osprey Talon 5.5, it's a fairly svelte little pack- I've been using a Osprey bladder (2 liter) in it as they add a little rigidity- the pack didn't seem to move much when running

I'm using a small camelbak lumbar pack now- it has a small bladder in it and holds a wee bit of gear- I think it would be too small for the Grand Canyon (the Talon 5.5 would be perfect- size wise), but will work for training runs until my miles get up there

I might try hand helds, although weigh in your hands could possibly strain your neck some??????????

Osprey makes a bigger lumbar pack the Talon 4 that might get the job done

like I said it may not have anything to do w/ the pack, but it's certainly a possibility

Mike M
(mtwarden) - MLife

Locale: Montana
Re: Back in the hunt (knock on wood) on 01/04/2012 20:21:29 MST Print View

good advice Craig- I do think I run on the tight side in my upper body, I'll make a conscience effort to try and keep things looser (and smile more! :) )

Eugene Smith
(Eugeneius) - MLife

Locale: Nuevo Mexico
hydration options on 01/05/2012 00:06:27 MST Print View

"like I said it may not have anything to do w/ the pack, but it's certainly a possibility."

Absolutely Mike. It makes sense to explore a few options and find a personal hydration preference. I started with lumbar packs a few years ago and would develop small quarter sized chafe marks on my lower back, they just didn't work with my girlish figure. ;-p

Hydration vests work very well if they fit properly, and my running vest fits nicely, but I prefer to not use it unless I absolutely have to carry additional gear and water. For the R2R2R in April I will be using my running vest..

95% of the time I run with a single 20oz. bottle, maybe two bottles, or no bottle at all. Right now with the cool winter weather I've been needing less water and running sans bottle; it is a world of difference running with nothing in your hands.

Art ...
(asandh) - F
Re: back in the hunt (knock on wood) on 01/05/2012 00:33:41 MST Print View

...

Edited by asandh on 02/13/2012 20:41:43 MST.

Hiking Malto
(gg-man) - F
Great advice! on 01/05/2012 05:44:36 MST Print View

"I remember a coach once saying to keep the face nice and relaxed, smile even, because the body will follow."

I was also given that same advise when I was doing by 7th jump. (skydiving) I was WAY too tense and the very laid back instructor told me to just look at her during the jump and smile. Her claim was that you can't be tense with a smile on your face.

Mike,
Great news on being back in the hunt.

Ron,
Hope you are able to join us. It would be great to meet you.

Art ...
(asandh) - F
2012 R2R2R Group on 01/05/2012 09:45:58 MST Print View

...

Edited by asandh on 02/13/2012 20:43:06 MST.

Mike M
(mtwarden) - MLife

Locale: Montana
welcome back Ben! on 01/08/2012 18:56:32 MST Print View

I see Ben is starting back- hope the ankle doesn't give you any more problems

my impingement is definitely better, still some pain in the shoulder, lower neck, upper back, but nothing like it was and thus far running doesn't seem to impact it

looking at airfares, finding some pretty decent deals- ~ $250 round trip Billings <-> Phoenix

Craig W.
(xnomanx) - F - M
How's everyone? on 01/08/2012 23:10:08 MST Print View

Yeah, good luck Ben, hope you can ramp it up in time and make it out.

Worst case, if you're not feeling up to the full R2R2R, come anyway and make it a marathon R2River2R.

David Thomas
(DavidinKenai) - MLife

Locale: North Woods. Far North.
Far North cross-training on 01/08/2012 23:14:53 MST Print View

Today was a cross-training day. Shoveling the driveway, specifically. 400 feet x 20 feet x 6" of snow. I was at it for a total of 2-1/2 hours. I do a lot of walking as I push the snow to the edges and of course more upper-body work than I would hiking.

Otherwise, I've been doing okay on my stair work and have been putting on some miles stomping ski trails out in snowshoes.

I should do some laps inside Walmart to get some faster-paced walking miles, though.

Hiking Malto
(gg-man) - F
Interesting Week on 01/09/2012 06:22:13 MST Print View

Due to time constraints and crappy weather I spent most of the week indoors. Saturday I had a memorable treadmill workout, I simulated the uphill of the North Face. After consulting my GPS software the "route" looked like this:
1) 90 minutes @ 5% gain (6mph)
2) 70 minutes @ 14% gain (3.5mph)
3) Total distance - 13.2 miles, gain - 5400'

How did it go?
1) This was one of the toughest workouts I've ever done. It wasn't the time, elevation or distance but the heat of the gym that caused me to sweat about a gallon. This completely soaked out all my clothes causing chaffing problems.
2) It was nice to get some benchmark on speed on some of the inclines. The 6mph was fairly easy on the treadmill but I know the combination of elevation and trail surface will make this counterfeit in the real world. Has anyone seen a correction factor for either speed or incline to compensate for elevation? I have seen the debate on wind resistance but couldn't find anything on altitude.
3) Since I had access to my heart rate I checked it a few times during the run. Not surprising it was very consistent during each phase. I was just over 160 for the 5% section and just under 160 for the 14%. I suspect that may be a bit high for an all day run but I zero data on what I normally train at.

Hopefully I will be able to move back outside this week. Trail is SO much enjoyable then a hot sweaty gym. Hope everyone is healing up and getting ready!

Art ...
(asandh) - F
Re: Interesting Week on 01/09/2012 07:28:15 MST Print View

Greg
you're either an exceptional athlete or your treadmill is a bit off.
those sustained speeds at those inclines are very fast.
. . . but it does sound like a Great hill workout.

Edited by asandh on 01/09/2012 07:37:35 MST.

ben wood
(benwood)

Locale: flatlands of MO
Re: welcome back Ben! on 01/09/2012 08:00:50 MST Print View

Thanks Mike and Craig!

Yeah I am a little worried about the time I have left. If I have to cut it short, I will. I have done a a bright angel -> phantom -> bright angel in a day and survived so I'm keeping an open mind about it while trying to be realistic.

anyhow thanks for the encouragement. hope to see you guys there.

Eugene Smith
(Eugeneius) - MLife

Locale: Nuevo Mexico
doing well on 01/09/2012 09:43:23 MST Print View

@ Art,

I know Eric through correspondence from a year or two back, we keep in touch through email and such, much like I have with Craig for a while now. I followed Eric on his GET thru last year as well, he can cover some distance.

Btw, had some friends over last night and watched "Unbreakable" the WS100 documentary that just came out, they managed to capture some of the tension in that race as well as give equal backstory to the top guys that year. The editing is pretty bad at times and there's some serious filler conversation filmed that probably seemed more interestin at thethe time ofoff shooting . It is still inspiring to watch them run so hard for 100 miles and truly race at that distance.

You 100 runners blow my mind.

Focused on all vertical this past week, mileage hasn't been a concern, just time and ascent. Finally bagged a summit I've been eyeing for over a year yesterday afternoon, got in a good 2500' of vert before being blown down by a low front
. I'll be running this route once a week.

b s
(smyth) - F
Re: Interesting Week on 01/09/2012 11:14:48 MST Print View

That's an impressive treadmill workout Greg. When I've been forced to use the gym during the week, I've been alternating similar speeds at 3-4% and 14% grades and find myself wiped after 60-70 minutes. Thanks for laying out the simulation of the north face of the canyon. Will be something to keep in mind if winter ever really hits and I'm forced indoors for an extended period.

Got some encouragement from a guy at my local trail on Saturday. He was heading to the HURT 100 in Oahu next week and finished WS100 last year and does all his training right here outside of Philly. Proof that what Dan said was true. Great to see in the flesh though.

Hope you guys don't mind that I jumped into the party late. I still can't commit but this has kept me motivated and on the trails at a time when I'd usually be in winter hibernation mode.

Brad

David Thomas
(DavidinKenai) - MLife

Locale: North Woods. Far North.
Re: Re: Interesting Week on 01/09/2012 11:33:58 MST Print View

>"you're either an exceptional athlete or your treadmill is a bit off.
those sustained speeds at those inclines are very fast."

Those could both be true :-)

I've never found a treadmill that simulated the slope it claimed. The treadmill moved at the reported speed, yes. And the "slope" was probably at the reported angle. But on the trail, I'm actually moving my body uphil. At the gym, most of body stays at the same elevation, so mostly I'm lifting my legs somewhat more when the treadmill is set for steeper hills.

And I HATE how hot most exercise rooms are (in hotels, I don't belong to a gym). Years ago, I gave up on the exercise room and I go to the stairwell - all hotels have them. Often they're cooler and I have it to myself. I put on some tunes or podcasts and pace myself at about 2,500 feet/hour (total up+down). Actual vertical feet in which I lifted (and lowered) my 180 pounds against gravity.

And especially for GCNP, going downstairs is really good prep. Since I've including stair work in my prep (sometimes my only prep), I haven't hurt from a SK-River-SK or BA-River-BA.

I'm talking hiking only. What works for you runners to prep for the downhill? I've got one-story stairs at home and 4 flights at the beach at 0F. But actual hills are an hour away and covered with snow.

Hiking Malto
(gg-man) - F
Treadmill Mechanics on 01/09/2012 17:52:25 MST Print View

"you're either an exceptional athlete or your treadmill is a bit off.
those sustained speeds at those inclines are very fast."

Art,
Please let it it be the first!!!! :) The incline could be off a degree or two either direction, I'm sure it has never been leveled at the gym. I do a lot of incline high speed walking on treadmills and noticed nothing out the ordinary with respect to either speed or incline.


"I've never found a treadmill that simulated the slope it claimed. The treadmill moved at the reported speed, yes. And the "slope" was probably at the reported angle. But on the trail, I'm actually moving my body uphil. At the gym, most of body stays at the same elevation, so mostly I'm lifting my legs somewhat more when the treadmill is set for steeper hills.

David,
In the range that I was going (5-14%) the angle and the % grade would be almost identical. I also spent most of the three hours while on the machine trying to determine if the motion of the treadmill was the same as walking up a perfectly smooth hill. Initially, I thought as you, the body isn't moving therefore the treadmill was easier. But then I took the example to the extreme, a perfectly 90 degree incline. It then becomes obvious that the mechanics are the same. But I do know that treadmills are easier in two respects; smoother surface and altitude. Can’t do anything about the surface which is why I asked about altitude adjustment.

I will be able to get a pretty good idea of the relative difficulty of treadmill vs. trail on my next AT run. I will find a couple of sections that have an equilivent gain to the two training sections. I will have a full report!

David Thomas
(DavidinKenai) - MLife

Locale: North Woods. Far North.
Re: Treadmill Mechanics on 01/09/2012 19:33:36 MST Print View

>"In the range that I was going (5-14%) the angle and the % grade would be almost identical. I also spent most of the three hours while on the machine trying to determine if the motion of the treadmill was the same as walking up a perfectly smooth hill. Initially, I thought as you, the body isn't moving therefore the treadmill was easier. But then I took the example to the extreme, a perfectly 90 degree incline. It then becomes obvious that the mechanics are the same. But I do know that treadmills are easier in two respects; smoother surface and altitude. Can’t do anything about the surface which is why I asked about altitude adjustment."

Greg, I agree slope and angle are essentially the same at low angles.

And that the range of motion your legs go through is the same.

But I can walk 4.25 mph up a "14%" slope on a treadmill all day long and it does not feel like 4.25 mph up 740 vertical feet per mile on good trail.

Being on the treadmill is absolutley better than not being on the treadmill. I don't think it's as good or as much of a workout as being on an actual hilly trail, but we all work with what we have. I'm quite limited, at sea level, on the flats, in a small town, at -18F this morning, simulating a R2R2R hike, and actual stairs are part of what I can do to get in shape.

But my biggest message to newbies is: get some downhill work in. It's the lack of downhill conditioning that has left me hurting in the distant past. Then I turned 45 and got smart.

Eugene Smith
(Eugeneius) - MLife

Locale: Nuevo Mexico
"2012 R2R2R Group - Training Log's" on 01/09/2012 23:04:18 MST Print View

Don't be fooled by the split shorts and shirt, that dark mass behind me brought some wind blown snow and sleet... gotta love January in NM, sunny blue bird skys one second and Armageddonesque lows the next.

SUMMIT

Mike M
(mtwarden) - MLife

Locale: Montana
NM weather on 01/10/2012 07:20:53 MST Print View

nice pic! we've been warm, but not quite shorts warm

ps your training log needs updating :)

Mike

Eugene Smith
(Eugeneius) - MLife

Locale: Nuevo Mexico
"2012 R2R2R Group - Training Log's" on 01/10/2012 22:30:51 MST Print View

I'm getting on it now Mike.

How is it up there in MT? I know CO is hurting badly for any snowfall; bare 14'ers in mid January is not a good sign. This could be a ravenous fire season come spring for the mountain west.

Mike M
(mtwarden) - MLife

Locale: Montana
Re: "2012 R2R2R Group - Training Log's" on 01/11/2012 07:54:18 MST Print View

Eugene- we're not as bad off as Colorado, but were certainly hurting in some areas for snow pack, just last week they were battling a very large blaze on the east front- that is simply unheard of

the weather is going to be taking a turn early next week w/ much cooler temps and more chances for precip- I don't mind the precip, but not looking forward to the cooler temps :)

Mike

as a side not went into the gym and am still having issues w/ my shoulder- tried to flat bench and it was a no go- not pain, but like the nerves in the shoulder aren't firing- weird, really weird- other exercises (ones that don't involve the shoulder much) seem to be fine- hoping this gets turned around less people mistake me for a real runner (which I'm a long ways of being!) :)

Craig W.
(xnomanx) - F - M
2012 R2R2R Group - Training Logs on 01/14/2012 20:50:28 MST Print View

Ran Mt. San Antonio (10,064') with Adan this morning; here's a shot of him ahead of me, climbing the Devil's Backbone. We ran a 13 mile, 4000' gain summit loop. Good times.
Beautiful mountain, a good dose of thin air, frozen fingers at the summit, all just above the masses of Los Angeles. We were first on the summit today.

1

Tony Krupicka and Jorge Pacheco were on the summit a month ago...
http://antonkrupicka.blogspot.com/2011/12/week-summary-dec-12-18.html
.......I'm guessing Adan and I were faster :)

Or not. They ran the whole loop in the same time it took us to summit. (2:23 RT vs. 3:26 RT)

(quite a difference in weather over one month if you compare his photos with mine; most all snow/ice is gone except for north faces)

Edited by xnomanx on 01/14/2012 21:10:01 MST.

Eugene Smith
(Eugeneius) - MLife

Locale: Nuevo Mexico
"2012 R2R2R Group - Training Log's" on 01/14/2012 23:51:25 MST Print View

That looks like a sweet section of trail Craig- great run fellas.

Adan is getting strong, get him on board for April.

I'm loving the photos btw, its cool to see where you guys are getting your miles.

Thom Darrah
(thomdarrah) - MLife

Locale: Southern Oregon
2012 R2R2R Group - Training Log's on 01/15/2012 12:06:46 MST Print View

"I'm loving the photos btw, its cool to see where you guys are getting your miles."

Do to a Krupicka type shin injury I'm forced into alternative forms of conditioning. My focus has shifted to spinning indoors and hiking with my dogs. Here are a few pictures of where I'm getting my non running miles. :(

Pro400

Above is a picture of my CycleOps P400. My morning split today was 1.5 hours at 215 watts covering just under 36 miles. I rode using a five CD mix of Metallica, good music to match my dark mode (I would much prefer to be running). I will put in a 1 hour split this afternoon and a hike with the dogs.

I'm fortunate to have open areas for hiking with my dogs directly off the back of our property. Here is a picture of the climb directly behind the house, a 2,000'+ gain to the fire lookout at the top.

Hogsback

Mike M
(mtwarden) - MLife

Locale: Montana
training & shin injury on 01/15/2012 14:58:25 MST Print View

Craig- great pic- 4000' is great, don't have anything like that close by unfortunately

Thom- hope your recovery is speedy, at least you can exercise that's a big plus :)

I wish I had a 2000' gain near my backyard- that would be great training for the R2R2R

looks like our weather is going to take a very nasty turn starting tomorrow, the coming snow is fine, the dam(n) frigid temps aren't-
guessing at least part of my "runs" will be on the stairmaster

my neck/shoulder impingement is still recovering, much more effected in the gym lifting, than running (starting to get skinny- well skinny for me anyways :))

Mike

David Thomas
(DavidinKenai) - MLife

Locale: North Woods. Far North.
No injuries for me on 01/15/2012 16:15:23 MST Print View

but then, I haven't done any running. Just snowshoeing, X-C skiing, up & down the stairs and some stationary biking.

I've dropped about 7 pounds. Dropping another 8-10 would be ideal.

Nothing yesterday, -28F is below the bottom of my fun meter, but -16F this morning has warmed to -4F, so it's back on the X-C skiis.

Hiking Malto
(gg-man) - F
I was weak! on 01/15/2012 17:15:40 MST Print View

I had two great workouts this week, both 7.2 miles straight up and down Kennesaw Mtn near where I work. So the stage was set for an epic run this weekend up on the AT. So I packed everything up last night, set out my gear and set the alarm for 6am. But weakness hit! The alarm went off at 6, I got up, talked myself out of going and went back to sleep. But the story doesn't end there thanks to Craig and his post above.

When I got up, I saw there was a new post on the R2R2R Training thread. Then I read Craigs post and it really torqued me off. Here others were doing very cool runs this weekend and here I sat. So, despite being about 8am, I headed off for the hour and a half drive to the start of the AT Approach Trail. The late start was a blessing in disguise because I knew I had to move pretty quick to get the run in before dark. I ended up doing 32 in an hour and forty minutes faster than I did a year ago on my first 2011 PCT training hike. The workouts the last few weeks have paid off.

Thank you Craig for giving me the kick in the butt to get off of my butt. But I'm still not happy that I didn't have it in me to do it on my own. Now I just have to be able to walk tomorrow. I have to fly to CA for a week and a half. Now where to hike next weekend, snowless Sierra, Death Valley, Big Sur?

Here's my picture from the Southern Terminus of the AT. Not nearly as cool as Craig's location!

Springer Mtn

Edited by gg-man on 01/15/2012 18:23:57 MST.

David Thomas
(DavidinKenai) - MLife

Locale: North Woods. Far North.
Re: No injuries for me on 01/15/2012 18:21:05 MST Print View

Here's a photo of the snowshoe/ski trails around our property. That's my wife with axe, I have the chainsaw to clear blown-down trees.

Gardening in Alaska

You guys are going to be so ready for hills, heat, and thin air. I, on the other hand, am not going to be phased by cold temps or snow near the rims.

Craig W.
(xnomanx) - F - M
I was weak! (and random thoughts on walking fast). on 01/15/2012 21:13:14 MST Print View

If "weak" is running a 50K in ~7 hours, I want to be weak too!
Nice job Greg.

My next step is making time to start getting some big training runs in too. Next on my list is crossing Joshua Tree (~38 miles) on the CRHT. As a training run I likely won't actually run the whole thing (will likely fast hike 50% of it), but will do it mainly just to get in nonstop time on the feet.
___________________________________________

I did something different tonight. Feeling tired, but wanting to stick to my goal of running everyday in 2012 (1 mile per day minimum), I went out for a quick mile on the streets...but I walked fast instead. I did it out of curiosity; I haven't timed a walking mile in....ever?
I clocked a blazing 12:15. Any faster and I'd have had to get the race walking hips and arm pumping going...which I don't really know how to do.

(Which leads to my other goal of starting a punk-rock long distance race walking team. But that's another story.)

Anyhow, I never breathed hard. Coming from running, I feel like I could do this all day. Could I?
So say I slow down to walking a 13:00/mile. Where would that put my time on a 50K?
Holy crap, I says...that's about 6:43:00.
My last "official" 50K race was just under 8:00:00. Now it had 10,000 feet of climbing at elevation and I was seriously undertrained for it...but that's a big time difference.
My fastest 50K (on trail with ~8000 gain) was a bit under 7:30:00.

Tonight's walking pace would put me on course to beat both (though it's not close to my road marathon PR), though I walked on road, no elevation, etc.

My, my, my....Are most of us middle to back of the packers better off race walking anything over 30 miles???

Food for thought....
If I remember right, I swear I heard Chris Wallace say he used to race walk (though I may be totally wrong) I'm curious....

Edited by xnomanx on 01/15/2012 21:19:39 MST.

Eugene Smith
(Eugeneius) - MLife

Locale: Nuevo Mexico
racewalking on 01/15/2012 22:02:33 MST Print View

Swing those hips Craig!

Racewalking looks like it requires significantly more technique for it to be effective, but it has to be easier on the body yes? They use the entire foot through the gait cycle, there is considerably less impact. My God is it painful to watch though!

3:34:13 is the racewalk world record for the 50K distance for reference. That's some seriously fast walking.

Edited by Eugeneius on 01/15/2012 22:13:23 MST.

David Thomas
(DavidinKenai) - MLife

Locale: North Woods. Far North.
Re: I was weak! (and random thoughts on walking fast). on 01/15/2012 22:05:22 MST Print View

Craig: I'm a fast walker and historically a non-runner. Serious trail runners beat me every time by a lot, at least in time, although sometimes I go more miles.

But casual runners on a mountain trail? Many times I walk past them as they are "running". And since they stop to eat, drink and rest, which I do as I walk, I do the round trip faster.

For a few miles, I'd do 14 minute miles walking.

For 10 miles, I'm more at 17 minute miles.

40-50 miles and the day always seem to average 3 mph = 20 minute miles but that includes ALL eating, drinking, filtering, peeing, changing socks, etc.

>"My fastest 50K (on trail with ~8000 gain) was a bit under 7:30:00"

With my style and speed of walking, that would about 9:40 so you're doing it a lot faster with your running. But if you walked the uphills, you might have more energy for the flats and downhills and lose little if anything off your total time.

Art ...
(asandh) - F
Re: I was weak! (and random thoughts on walking fast). on 01/15/2012 22:43:51 MST Print View

...

Edited by asandh on 02/13/2012 20:44:57 MST.

Eugene Smith
(Eugeneius) - MLife

Locale: Nuevo Mexico
"2012 R2R2R Group - Training Log's" on 01/15/2012 22:58:18 MST Print View

Excellent Art!

Found this R2R2R video in the ultra/trail running blog circle...

Tally-Ho: The Movie

Eugene Smith
(Eugeneius) - MLife

Locale: Nuevo Mexico
"2012 R2R2R Group - Training Log's" on 01/22/2012 10:20:52 MST Print View

Got in a fun run yesterday morning up a local peak, some thorny scrambling near the end, followed by a long and fast run down singletrack from the top of the pass. It feels like early spring here in NM right now, cool and windy!


baylor peak

Mike M
(mtwarden) - MLife

Locale: Montana
pic on 01/22/2012 16:18:52 MST Print View

Eugene- nice pic, I was going to post a pic from cell phone to contrast yours, but alas my techno-foo is not working to well today

anywho we got ~ 10" of snow, so it definitely makes running more work- I ran 3 miles today (was going to run 5) and it took almost all of an hour to do

I also add we had very cold temps all week (until today) and Art is correct- the stair master will definitely give you a good workout! :)

Mike

David Thomas
(DavidinKenai) - MLife

Locale: North Woods. Far North.
R2R2R - Video on 01/22/2012 17:12:34 MST Print View

Eugene: Thanks for the video link.

I found it striking for how few times I've been on the SK how well I remember and can recognize particular switchbacks. I think that says something about being more alive and alert when in the outdoors.

But my two times on the NK have been so long ago it would help me if, the night before, someone could spend 5 minutes talking me through it while looking over a map. Trails I know are so much easier to do than ones that I don't know or don't remember well.

I've purchased my air flights (5,108 miles round trip) and I'm looking forward to it a lot!

Dan Hewins
(hewinsd) - F

Locale: Chihuahuan Desert
Re: "2012 R2R2R Group - Training Log's" on 01/22/2012 20:36:36 MST Print View

Good long run (~15mi/3600'climb) with "el equipo de Nuevo Mexico". I rolled my ankle pretty bad at the end -- it was enough to take me to the ground. In my hasted I popped to me feet and figured running was the best option in case swelling began to set in - I wanted to spend as few miles limping as possible. To my surprise I was able to run the remaining descent and a day later have no pain (only some mild swelling).

A few photos:


Self at the highpoint of the day.


Eugene and Co. descending the mountain.

Edited by hewinsd on 01/22/2012 21:12:55 MST.

Craig W.
(xnomanx) - F - M
"2012 R2R2R Group - Training Log's" on 01/22/2012 21:10:25 MST Print View

Here's some pics from today's long run with Adan.
16 miles, 3600' feet. Angeles National Forest

1
Me, Strawberry Peak north face in background

2
Adan, booking it through a sweet mixed section.

3
Looking back towards Los Angeles

5
Feeling like a bighorn sheep on stretches of steep, vanishing trail.

Edited by xnomanx on 01/22/2012 21:11:51 MST.

Dan Hewins
(hewinsd) - F

Locale: Chihuahuan Desert
vanishing trail on 01/22/2012 21:14:19 MST Print View

Nice, Craig -- that last one looks like some sketchy terrain.

Art ...
(asandh) - F
Re: vanishing trail on 01/22/2012 21:44:11 MST Print View

Great photos, great running everyone.

. . .

Edited by asandh on 01/23/2012 08:05:32 MST.

Adan Lopez
(Lopez) - F

Locale: San Gabriel Valley
2012 R2R2R Group - Training Logs on 01/24/2012 21:43:01 MST Print View

1/16: 3R/0/7R(1000')/7R(1000')/0/3R/16T(3600') = 36(5600')
1/23: 0/7R(1300')/7R(1300')/0/3R/3R/20T(4600') = 40(7200')
1/30: 0/2R/4T(1000')/2R/0/7T(1800')/12T(3000') = 27 (5800') rest week!!
2/6: 0/2R/4T/5T/0/30T(9800') = 41(9800')
2/13: 0/0/8R/0/10R/0/12T(4400') = 30 (4400')
2/20: 0/0/0/4R/0/0/17T(7000') = 21(7000')

Edited by Lopez on 02/26/2012 19:31:54 MST.

Craig W.
(xnomanx) - F - M
Re: 2012 R2R2R Group - Training Logs on 01/25/2012 09:35:15 MST Print View

One can only speculate that this means Adan is officially throwing in his sombrero.

___________________________________________________________________________________

Distance running: it's like having fun, only different.

Adan Lopez
(Lopez) - F

Locale: San Gabriel Valley
Mi sombrero... on 01/25/2012 09:56:11 MST Print View

...is in. The force was too great. Wifey brought up a question I had not considered. After i finished listing all the ways i could fail, she asked how I will feel if I don't go. that made the decision very simple. Let's talk Wisner.

Art ...
(asandh) - F
Re: Mi sombrero... on 01/25/2012 10:14:12 MST Print View

Adan
my rule of thumb ... if you go slow enough you can go any distance.
one foot in front of the other.
good luck training.

Eugene Smith
(Eugeneius) - MLife

Locale: Nuevo Mexico
"2012 R2R2R Group - Training Log's" on 01/25/2012 12:44:27 MST Print View

Mi sombrero is off to you Adan! Glad to hear you're going to take a stab at this. Did you list off all the ways things could right?

"I got that P.M.A!..."

Looking forward to meeting up with the group....getting close fellas.

. ..
(dgowler)
That P.M.A. on 01/25/2012 13:07:54 MST Print View

I'm not sure if this is the appropriate spot to ask, but now that I know there's a bad brains fan in the crowd, I'm trying to expand the 6 or so hours of music on my iPod into something more length appropriate to the RRR. "banned in DC" is one of those tracks that always rally's me on long grinders, whether I have headphones in or not. Does anyone have a few tunes they can suggest that does it for them? I'm open to checking out anything.

Adan Lopez
(Lopez) - F

Locale: San Gabriel Valley
PMA on 01/25/2012 13:26:09 MST Print View

Thanks Art, you're absolutely right! It's just like them long staggering trips home from the bar, one foot in front of the other!

I hear you Eugene! Most of my concerns revolved around failing to find sufficient time to train between my daughters' crazy dance schedules. One huge realization cleared that up though, my wife is amazing! She assured me she will find me the time. With her behind me, I can run a triple crossing man!

Thanks for the warm welcome gang. Thanks to Craig for giving me a boost into this whole running thing, brother is solid. Hoping to cross 40 miles this week. Super excited.

Eugene Smith
(Eugeneius) - MLife

Locale: Nuevo Mexico
"2012 R2R2R Group - Training Log's" on 01/25/2012 13:44:01 MST Print View

G.B.H. "Sick Boy"
Circle Jerks "Live fast, die young"
Minor Threat - "Look back and laugh"
Minor Threat - "Screaming at a wall"
Bad Brains -"coptic times"
The Faction-" california dreamin"


Those are some of my favorite individual tracks Devon which get thrown into playlists, but I rarely take my ipod these days running with people. Just throw on Minor Threat on loop, any album, you're good. I go through phases with music, can only digest so much before I move onto something else for a while. Check out the thread punkrock loving ultralighters Devon.

Hiking Malto
(gg-man) - F
Houston, we have a problem! on 01/25/2012 19:07:06 MST Print View

It was a beautiful afternoon in sunny CA, perfect conditions for a nice late afternoon trail run. But happiness turned in pain. Three miles out I rolled my ankle , the first time in a long while. I hobbled back to the car and headed back to my hotel. After taking a couple of Advil I laid back with ice on my foot. I just looked and I saw a half of a slightly blueish golf ball stuck on the outside of my foot just below the ankle. Hopefully, it's not as bad as it looks. This stinks.

Ken Helwig
(kennyhel77) - MLife

Locale: Scotts Valley CA via San Jose, CA
Re: That P.M.A. on 01/25/2012 19:22:18 MST Print View

Devon what style of music are you looking for..DC Hardcore, NYC stuff, classic California style....Mid West stuff like AOF, Effigies, Zero Boys, Toxic Reasons...

Or stuff from The UK? Early punk or UK 82 Hardcore which would be like GBH

Art ...
(asandh) - F
Re: Houston, we have a problem! on 01/25/2012 20:18:35 MST Print View

ouch !
I can't believe how many "running" injuries are cropping up on this thread.

. ..
(dgowler)
Re: Re: That P.M.A. on 01/25/2012 21:52:43 MST Print View

News of all these injuries is a huge bummer! I know I'm guilty myself of getting swept up in the excitement and maybe pushing a little harder than I should. I have bad knees and they quickly remind me to cool it. Theres certainly time to bounce back, at least I'm telling myself that. POSITIVE MENTAL ATTITUDE!


@Eugene
I like the cut of your jib, Smith! The minor threat first 2 7" are a mainstay for me. For these purposes I just wish those 13 songs added up to more than 15 minutes!


@Ken
I wont lie, most of those bands and scenes were long dead when I was still filling pampers, I'm only aware of a fraction of them via the grace of god/the internet. I know this is probably a difficult request but I'm looking for those 5 or 6 tracks that'll give you the goosebumps every time. I remember being 15 years old and hearing "in my eyes" for the first time and realizing everything had just changed for me. Those are the kind of songs I need when my quads are jelly and this left-right-left-right thing makes no sense anymore.

thanks a lot friends.

Mike M
(mtwarden) - MLife

Locale: Montana
Re: Houston, we have a problem! on 01/26/2012 07:53:35 MST Print View

Greg- hope you heal up quickly! when you're ready to give it a go, consider taping (see my earlier posts) I really feel that it helped get me out there a little quicker and reduced the risk of re-injury

funny (I think :)) but I've never owned a ipod/walkman/other carry music device, my wife though has an ipod and wouldn't consider leaving the house to workout w/o it

Eugene Smith
(Eugeneius) - MLife

Locale: Nuevo Mexico
Re: Re: Houston, we have a problem! on 01/26/2012 10:49:28 MST Print View

Have any of you neglected to offer up sufficient sacrifice to the running gods? We're a bit cursed as of late. Be safe out there.

Sorry to hear you tweaked your ankle Greg, lick your wound and rest up. How did it feel today? Any better?

Hiking Malto
(gg-man) - F
Healing Up on 01/26/2012 15:25:32 MST Print View

As hard as it was, I sat all evening with the leg elevated and an ice pack on. Woke up this morning and the swelling is WAY down and I can walk pain free. I can't believe how good it feels considering how bad it looked less than twelve hours earlier. I am taking it easy today and then I fly back to Atlanta tomorrow so I will not be running for two straight days. Also, instead of a long run this weekend I will try to do a couple of shorter runs to test it out. So good news, I expect to be back in full training mode soon.

Tom Kirchner
(ouzel) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Northwest/Sierra
Re: Healing Up on 01/26/2012 15:56:01 MST Print View

"So good news, I expect to be back in full training mode soon."

Greg,

It would be wise to tape it for a few weeks, until it is fully healed. If you go over on it again right away, you're going to be in a world of hurt, possibly with permanent damage.

Mike M
(mtwarden) - MLife

Locale: Montana
Re: Re: Healing Up on 01/26/2012 16:28:31 MST Print View

^ I'd agree w/ this, I felt it really helped

Philip Delvoie
(PhilipD) - MLife

Locale: Ontario, Canada
re: That P.M.A. on 01/27/2012 10:15:27 MST Print View

Devon,
Check out a song called Brains by Lower Dens. May not be your style, but it has a pretty insistent beat....may keep those legs turning over.

Craig W.
(xnomanx) - F - M
Final Numbers (Who's In?) on 01/27/2012 11:23:57 MST Print View

I'm going to need to get a realistic headcount soon so that I can get going on making the commemorative R2R2R beer steins for everyone that shows up. I'm pretty backed up on ceramic work/projects right now and kiln space is always limited...I need to start as soon as possible to make sure I have time to finish everything.

Art ...
(asandh) - F
Re: Final Numbers (Who's In?) on 01/27/2012 12:11:44 MST Print View

I will be coming with 2 other RRR guys and 1 support guy (R river R).

Edited by asandh on 02/13/2012 20:46:56 MST.

Eugene Smith
(Eugeneius) - MLife

Locale: Nuevo Mexico
head count on 01/27/2012 12:17:54 MST Print View

I'll take a stab at the list:

I
Dan Hewins
Martin Miera
Adan Lopez
Greg Gressel
Mike Moore
Art Messier +3
David Thomas
Devon Growler
Brian Blair (tentative)
Rob Lee
Brad Smyth (tentative)
Eric Payne (tentative)
George Matthews

Custom R2R2R beer steins? Yeah buddy!

Edited by Eugeneius on 01/27/2012 12:22:40 MST.

ben wood
(benwood)

Locale: flatlands of MO
Re: Final Numbers (Who's In?) on 01/27/2012 13:19:27 MST Print View

dangit craig!

now i really wish i was going. i'm guessing an epic fail doesn't earn a beer stein?

Eugene Smith
(Eugeneius) - MLife

Locale: Nuevo Mexico
fueling on 01/28/2012 12:36:32 MST Print View

What have you guys been fueling with on your longer/harder runs? Have you given serious thought into what you will be fueling with on April 14th? what does your recovery food consist of during the week?

Ill likely be sticking to water, HEED in one bottle, Perpetuem solids, gels, maybe a few clif bloks, and a couple bars in my hydration pack for the run. Nothing heavy, but something solid to sit in my gut when needed. Also consider electrolyte supplementation, for me I will stick to a strict 2 Endurolytes on the hour. I don't run with a watch anymore, but I am considering picking up a cheapo to set a timer to remind me to stay on my calories/hydration cause I tend to allow considerable time to pass between fuelings.

For my training runs I have been running on just water and a gel or two if out for over an hour. How about you fellas?

I know Craig runs on tortillas and chia seed.

Edited by Eugeneius on 01/28/2012 12:50:35 MST.

Mike M
(mtwarden) - MLife

Locale: Montana
Re: fueling on 01/28/2012 13:18:18 MST Print View

this is an area I don't know much about, but my tentative plan is to have one bottle of water and one mixed w/ gatorade, switching between the two

I'm going to order up some gels and give them a go, I'll also carry some cliff/mojo bars and I'm going to pack a peanut butter/jelly sandwich :)

I was thinking about throwing in a banana and maybe a peeled orange, maybe a Snickers bar too

I'll be curious what everyone else's take is on this

Craig W.
(xnomanx) - F - M
Re: fueling on 01/28/2012 13:18:36 MST Print View

I've actually begun to switch away from the tortilla and chia seed to a much simpler diet of straight corn liquor.

________________________________________________________________


I actually haven't been eating and drinking much on recent long runs, but then again, nothing has really been too far beyond 4 hours lately. Last longer run I did I ate one balance bar and drank two 24oz. bottles over 16 miles.

The other night I ran 10 miles with 1000' and carried zero food or water.

I've been OK as of late going pretty minimal. I'll be running 20 miles with about 5000' tomorrow; will carry 3-24oz. bottles and probably eat two bars.

That said, as I start to run longer (and on R2R2R day) I'll likely just do bars and potato chips for calories (and salt) combined with straight water. I've never really tried perpetuem, etc. and don't think I should go mixing it up now. On every marathon to 50K race I've done in the past I always gravitate to just eating bars and chips or pretzels at all the stations, so that's what I'll carry- same thing I eat when doing hard backpacking/long days. Maybe throw in some salty nuts.

I'm not so fast that I have to worry about eating chips vs. the convenience of gels. Overall, walking while eating chips won't change my pace much because I'll be mixing in walk breaks anyway.

I might throw in a Salt Stick tablet every hour or two for good measure.

__________________________________________________________________________



Adan has some great eating strategies; ask him about raw hot dogs and tortillas, carried in his pocket no less.

Edited by xnomanx on 01/28/2012 13:28:10 MST.

Adan Lopez
(Lopez) - F

Locale: San Gabriel Valley
Weiners!!! on 01/28/2012 14:00:31 MST Print View

Weiners for sure! For this though I'll step up to the ones stuffed with nacho cheese and I'll wrap em in lard soaked tortillas. Hehe.

Serious though this is where I'll need some pointers. I'm thinking maybe I'll combine supplements with food? One at a time of course. :) I'm going to start experimenting with this next week. I've never heard of most of the stuff Eugene mentioned. I like the idea of eating high power snacks and supplementing with gels or whatever. I used to make little potato-chorizo-corn burritos for long hard days back in my fireproofing days.

Anybody have a link for info on which snack foods or supplements are best? I need to learn about recovery ideas too.

Craig, let me know how many hot dogs you want for tomorrow. I know they're your fav!

Hiking Malto
(gg-man) - F
Fueling on 01/28/2012 14:22:11 MST Print View

Plan at this point subject to change as I try it out on longer training runs:
1) 300 calories per hour. Alternate between an hour of Maltodextrin and other junk foods.
2) Maltodextrin wil be mixed up triple strength, 900 calories in a 1l bottle. It also has electrolytes mixed in it.
3) For non Malto hours I will also be taking electrolyte capsules.
4) junk food will be mix of sweet and salty. Chips, candy bars etc.
5) Will target a bit less than 1l water per hour. Will do same strategy as my thru hike, liter at water source and come in a liter short at next stop. May revise this after looking at water points and determining a target pace per section.

This is identical to my strategy on my thru hike except that I will do more Malto. Still trying to learn how to eat on the run.

PS - Injury Update
Here is a nice photo of the outside of my foot today. It is feeling much better even after an hour on the elliptical. Can't wait to get back to running, I'm becoming an addict.

Blue Foot

Edited by gg-man on 01/28/2012 15:33:23 MST.

Eugene Smith
(Eugeneius) - MLife

Locale: Nuevo Mexico
fueling for R2R2R on 01/28/2012 15:06:38 MST Print View

Adan,

Simple carbohydrates are going to be your best fuel source (gels, candy, pretzels, chips, various bars, etc.), the key is finding what works well for you while running/hiking strenuously all day. Gels aren't necessary really, they just make getting in those carbohydrates convenient and metered out (typically in 100 calories per gel pack servings), they often contain amino acids which aid in the recovery of muscles. I find tearing the top of a gel off and sucking it down with a little water easier than fumbling around with a ziploc bag and various other carbohydrates while running. Breathing, chewing food, and running can be tricky. I like taking in a small amount of protein in addition to my carbohydrate intake, it takes the edge off of having sugars in my gut all day and helps keep me from feeling like I have a solid mass of jello up front.

We can only digest so many calories an hour, overdoing it on the caloric intake while exercising can wreak havoc on your muscles, due to blood being diverted to aid in stomach digestion. Factor in heat, digestion, high exertion, and you get a tricky situation that requires a little forethought. It all about finding a balance on these long runs, one in which I'm still trying to figure out and have messed up on in the past...but I'm learning.

Of course all this is dependent on the individuals metabolism, level of fitness, and rate of exertion. If you plan to get after it and push it for the duration of the double crossing then eating solid foods may not be as feasible or practical, gels and quickly absorbed carbohydrates will be better. Powerhiking/walking is less intense and lends itself to eating more solid foods without any ill effects usually. If you think you'll be on your feet for 14-16hrs. then gels and candy isn't going to cut it.

As far as getting in electrolytes, like Craig mentioned, salty foods (chips and pretzels) help provide a portion of your electrolyte needs (sodium and potassium), but not the complete electrolyte requirements. S-Caps and Endurolytes are two options that do provide a more complete electrolyte replacement. I've had seriously nasty cramps in the past and have had them subside, barely, after taking in Endurolytes. Hammer HEED, Accelerade, Gatorade, Powerade, etc. are all options for getting in some sodium and carbs, but they're not all created equally, see what works for you.

I'm curious what others will be using as well. Hopefully Art will chime in on this, he has a lot of experience here.


_______________________________________

@Craig,

No mezcal and peyote trips? You could do a quadruple crossing and be back home by Sunday.

Edited by Eugeneius on 01/28/2012 15:10:01 MST.

Art ...
(asandh) - F
R2R2R on 01/28/2012 15:34:06 MST Print View

...

Edited by asandh on 02/13/2012 21:00:35 MST.

Hiking Malto
(gg-man) - F
Re: Weiners!!! on 01/28/2012 16:03:46 MST Print View

Adan,
I tried a bunch of different combinations trying to nail down a food plan for my thru hike. Bottom line, whatever you take make sure you can eat it. A good example of this is Perpetuem. I found that I couldn't drink that consistantly due to the taste. I made up an almost exact nutritional equivalent flavored with crystal light. On the other hand I have done very long 30+ mile fast hikes (run down hills) eating pringles and chocolate covered donuts and that was easy and effective. So I focus more on what I can eat rather than a perfect nutritional formulation.

Here are the general guidelines that I used for my hike. Some would apply for a single long day but this was intended more for day after day of long days.
1) Start the day with carbs. If its loaded with simple surgars than meter it in slower. Whenever possible I tried to stay with more complex carbs to avoid blood suger spikes prior to the start of high calorie burn.
2) I would try to get some protein in during the day though that would come from the foods I ate vs. protein powder etc. Foods like snickers or peanut butter would work well for me. Also, I took nuts as some of my hourly 300 calorie packs. When possible I would eat those more on the downhill sections to save the higher carbs for the uphills.
3) For foods loaded with simple sugars I smetimes metered them in over the hour, example; an Oreo every ten minutes. This may have been overkill.
4) End of the day protein. I think this was critical to recovery especially for multiday events. Also, hyhydration and carb replacement helped as well. I also took glutamine, don't know if I could swear by it but the whole combination worked for me.

Based on these guidelines I would not do the weiner routine. It is too low in carbs and too high in protein. A few as a protein source could work.

David Thomas
(DavidinKenai) - MLife

Locale: North Woods. Far North.
Re: fueling for R2R2R on 01/28/2012 16:59:41 MST Print View

Eugene said:"If you plan to get after it and push it for the duration of the double crossing then eating solid foods may not be as feasible or practical, gels and quickly absorbed carbohydrates will be better. Powerhiking/walking is less intense and lends itself to eating more solid foods without any ill effects usually. If you think you'll be on your feet for 14-16hrs. then gels and candy isn't going to cut it."

This matches my experience on long dayhikes (40-50 miles, 5,000-15,000' up+down). I bring normal, grocery-store foods. A few sub sandwhiches, cookies, dried fruit. I figure my gut and its residents are set up best for my around-town diet. I move a bit towards carbs (more cookies) and salt (beef jerky and a few snack/junk foods). I think having a variety of foods with a variety of digestion times (such as in a sandwhich - bread, meat, cheese) avoids some of the potential to bonk suddenly.

I go a little fancier (Pepperidge Farms cookies, black-forest ham, etc) than I would around town both as a treat and an incentive to eat enough. I go for "finger foods" - things like I can eat as I walk. I find it a mental plus to consider how many miles I got just while eating my lunch.

I look at labels and add up calories. For R2R2R, I figure about 6000 calories on top of a basal rate of 2,500. So I'll aim to have 8,000 or so with me. This is more vertical than most of my long hikes - usually I'm at 6,500-7,000 calories on the day of a big hike.

It's helpful for me to hear suggestions from runners as I'm planning/hoping to manage some jogging down the trail. It sounds like I should shift a bit towards goo and gels. Any thoughts on cold-turkey, adding some gel on hike day? Or should I ramp up in the week prior?

Art ...
(asandh) - F
Re: Re: fueling for R2R2R on 01/28/2012 17:03:56 MST Print View

Dave
whatever foods you decide to use on RRR day, its probably best that you test it out before hand to see how your body and mind will react to it.

you don't absolutely need gels, whatever works for you.

Edited by asandh on 02/13/2012 20:57:39 MST.

David Thomas
(DavidinKenai) - MLife

Locale: North Woods. Far North.
Re: Re: Re: fueling for R2R2R on 01/28/2012 17:11:37 MST Print View

Thanks Art. Yeah, best to test things beforehand. I will.

So if I start to feel myself bonking, are gels the best / quickest way out of that? Followed by longer-lasting foods?

Perhaps I should always have 1-2 with me on long hikes? And test how I react to them on my training hike.

Just got a pair of short, wide X-C skiis - kind of sliding snowshoes with snowshoe-type bindings. So Kristin and I are off into the forest now - I'll check back later tonight.

Tom Kirchner
(ouzel) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Northwest/Sierra
Re: fueling for R2R2R on 01/28/2012 17:39:03 MST Print View

"We can only digest so many calories an hour, overdoing it on the caloric intake while exercising can wreak havoc on your muscles, due to blood being diverted to aid in stomach digestion."

This is a critical thing to keep in mind, folks. With that in mind, avoid things like nuts, which take a lot of digesting due to high fat and protein content. One food that hasn't been mentioned so far is boiled potatoes. They are a great source of highly available carbs that go thru the digestive system very fast and also satisfy that craving for "real food". I personally know one ultra guy who ran right around 7 hours for 50 miles who swore by them and also said they are fairly popular with the ultra crowd. Worth considering, IMO. If you can tolerate it, Greg's idea of using maltodextrin is darn near optimal. That is the primary constituent of Perpetuem and Sustained Energy, both Hammer products, although Greg makes his own up from scratch, adding in a few electrolytes as well.

Art ...
(asandh) - F
R2R2R on 01/28/2012 17:59:04 MST Print View

...

Edited by asandh on 02/13/2012 20:55:24 MST.

Tom Kirchner
(ouzel) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Northwest/Sierra
Re: Re: Re: fueling for R2R2R on 01/28/2012 18:07:45 MST Print View

"carrying them on the R2R2R could get a bit messy though."

Why? Leave them in their skins and carry in either a lightweight tupperwear container or a large Zip Loc. I do it frequently even now on longer day hikes. Dipped in a bit of salt they are delicious, easy on the tummy, and definitely get the job done. On a run like the R2R2R, I'd use Mortons Lite salt, which is half sodium and half potassium, for the electrolytes it provides. If you use small "creamer", also called "new", potatoes, you can just pop the whole potato in your mouth, chew, and swallow-no muss, no fuss, no bother. Mmmmm mmmm, finger lickin' good, as The Colonel used to say. ;0)

ben wood
(benwood)

Locale: flatlands of MO
Re: Re: Fueling on 01/28/2012 20:26:33 MST Print View

Art,
Thanks for your quick breakdown of nutrition and their strengths. I've read a lot about nutrition and always find a bunch of scientific jibber-gabber. It's good to get the low-down in regular terms.

Edited by benwood on 01/28/2012 20:30:26 MST.

Dan Hewins
(hewinsd) - F

Locale: Chihuahuan Desert
fuel on 01/29/2012 01:27:55 MST Print View

I have a pretty standard ultra diet (pizza & nutella):

For less than 5 hrs

- Heed*
- GU brand gels**
- S! Caps (1-2/hr depending on conditions)

--
For more than 5 hrs add:

- Honey Stinger Waffles (calories; if/when gels start to get tough to take in)
- Candy/GU Chomps (electrolytes & calories; later in the day if/when gels are tough to get in)
- Perpetuem Soilds (protein; late in the day)
- Green Chile Cheeseburger
- Stout in frosted mug
--
Post run:

I drink 1 scoop of whey protein in a glass of ice cold milk (1 scoop ~20g/protein in 12oz 1% milk) after any run longer than 3 miles. I usually also try to take in some kind of carbohydrate w/ a high glycemic index as soon as I finish (e.g., few slices of sour dough toast, tortillas, cereal, potatoes), which seems to help restore carb stores and reduce catabolism (e.g, glycogen to glucose).

----
The only advice I have here is to test things on your long runs and find what can either pull you up out of a hole quickly (**for me it is GU where Hammer gels for example don't seem to better my condition), or what can keep you moving happily (*water doesn't seem to work for me on longer runs, so I stick with Heed). I have never really lost my stomach, but I have started to have a hard time with gel fuel and sweet stuff, so I like to have some bland calories available too (tortillas, potatoes etc...).

Edited by hewinsd on 01/29/2012 01:47:22 MST.

Dan Hewins
(hewinsd) - F

Locale: Chihuahuan Desert
on fuel on 01/29/2012 01:34:44 MST Print View

Irunfar.com, the quintessential ultra running website, published on aspects of race nutrition a while back - I dug up the articles. They may be of use for some of you getting started...

Nutrition (in broad context):

http://www.irunfar.com/2011/03/race-nutrition.html

Gel comparison (some of the info may be out of date I think Clif has a new formula):

http://www.irunfar.com/2008/12/energy-gel-comparison.html

Caffeine (we all do it):

http://www.irunfar.com/2008/04/caffeine-and-endurance-running.html

Ibuprofen (same as above):

http://www.irunfar.com/2010/07/ibuprofen-and-its-effects-during-ultramarathons.html

Art ...
(asandh) - F
R2R2R on 01/29/2012 08:55:16 MST Print View

...

Edited by asandh on 02/13/2012 20:54:17 MST.

Eugene Smith
(Eugeneius) - MLife

Locale: Nuevo Mexico
"2012 R2R2R Group - Training Log's" on 01/29/2012 13:39:44 MST Print View

I always fear vomiting Art, under any circumstances. ;-) I would rather suffer for hours on end than succumb to vomiting.

Do you have any horror stories regarding your stomach revolting on a run?


@ Greg,

What maltodextrin are you using for your MYOF (*make your own formula) supplements? I like the idea of figuring out your own preferences and adding cheap flavorings like Crystal light. Yesterday I ran with some unflavored HEED which isn't half bad, my father turned me onto that stuff a while back.

Hiking Malto
(gg-man) - F
Malto Mix on 01/29/2012 14:51:14 MST Print View

I bought two 50lb bags of Maltrin QD M500 Maltodextrin from Skidmore Sales. I ended up using about 80 lbs of it on my thru and have been slowly burning through the rest on training runs. Note: maltodextrin has no taste but it does have mild sweetness.

Here are my top-secret recipes:

Electrolyte Mix (100 servings)
41g Salt Balance (low sodium salt substitute)
108g Calcium Complex (such as All One 58638)

This will make (100) 1.5g servings. I either put in Malto mix or pack out in capsules. This replicates 3 Enduralytes only MUCH less expensive.


Basic Malto mix (300 calories)
1) Make a premix out of 10-12L of crystal light mix, 15-18g Electrolyte Mix and enough maltodextrin to make 100-120g total weight (Depends on whether it 10 or 12L of crystal light mix. Premix allows you to get more consistent mix.
2) Mix completely.
3) Add 10g of premix and 70g of maltodextrin to bag for 80g serving total.

This makes up a mixture that is flavored the same as crystal light but a bit sweeter due to maltodextrin. You would mix this with water to get a total of 1L.

On my thru-hike I started to mix this double strength to cut down the number of times I had to mix up the Malto. It was a bit strong but I had no trouble drinking 80lbs worth of Malto in 98 days. If I were to do it over I would mix up 600 calorie packs using about 12g premix(with double electrolytes) and 145g of maltodextrin.


Perpetuem Equivalent (300 calorie pack)
24g Soy Protein
50g Maltodextrin
10g Lecithin Powder (this is the fat component of Perpetuem)


Recovery Mix
28g Whey Protein
50g Maltodextrin
3g glutamine
1.5g Electrolyte mix

I made up a few of the recovery and the perpetuem mixes. The protein and lecithin made it taste yucky and I had to hold my nose to drink it. This was not going to be viable for 98 days so I ended up taking my Malto mix and adding glutamine capsules and other sources of protein at the end of the day.

Edited by gg-man on 01/29/2012 15:05:22 MST.

Art ...
(asandh) - F
R2R2R on 01/29/2012 14:51:35 MST Print View

...

Edited by asandh on 02/13/2012 20:56:21 MST.

Eugene Smith
(Eugeneius) - MLife

Locale: Nuevo Mexico
"2012 R2R2R Group - Training Log's" on 01/29/2012 15:08:53 MST Print View

@ Greg,

Wow! Excellent resource, thank you very much, this is exactly the kind of stuff I'm looking for. I appreciate you sharing your top secret formulas. I did find 'Carbo Gain' 100% malto pricing and it's pretty affordable, something around $30 for 12lbs. which would last me almost an eternity since I don't fuel with supplements daily.

My sister makes a mean 'Hammer Bar' replica that I may need to have her make more of and bring them up in April.

@Art,

I've seen the video of AJW losing it during Western and pushing on-it's inspiring to say the least.

Adan Lopez
(Lopez) - F

Locale: San Gabriel Valley
Fuel on 01/29/2012 17:24:24 MST Print View

Lots of excellent info to digest here! I'll be reading through carefully this week, much to learn from y'all, thanks everybody! I'll likely be experimenting with a mix of potatoes, chips, bars, and some of the supplements mentioned for easy carbs during faster sections. I'll bone up on the concepts and intake rates etc and make adjustments as i go. I'm 6'4" 215lbs, what should I target for calories/hr?

I Hit 40 miles this week!! Training seems really good so far. Had my first real tough run doing 20mi/5000' with craig today, some mystery pain and limping which I was worried about but I feel great now after elevating the leg and a good nap. Looking forward to my easy recovery week now and time with the kinfolk before coming back even stronger next week! Sometimes it sucks being the rookie but not in this group, thanks for all the support fellas!

Lessons learned this week:
Lots to learn about nutrition.
Mt101 maybe light for 20+ miles, ordered some Altra Lone Peaks to try.
Switch from 2 hand bottles to one hand and one in the pack for eating purposes.
even a 3mile run can be hard if you go too fast.
Pavement don't like me.
I'm a runner!

Hiking Malto
(gg-man) - F
Calories per hr. on 01/29/2012 17:51:04 MST Print View

Adan,
I have good luck with 300 calories per hour. I would also take enough "hours worth" to hike the distance. (I will be taking about 4500 calories) I'm normally 6'2", 187. That worked well for me on long fast hikes up to 57 and straight runs up to 32 miles. I would probably target 320/hour in your case, you can adjust as needed. Glad to have you on-board.

Mike M
(mtwarden) - MLife

Locale: Montana
rookie on 01/29/2012 18:05:06 MST Print View

believe me your not the rookie :)

had a good week (by my standards) started out w/ some x-country skiing and then got several runs; the snow varies from 4-8" so it definitely makes the running more challenging then w/ no snow

weather looks promising for next week (30-40 for highs), hope to get into the low 30's for miles next week (God willing)

Craig W.
(xnomanx) - F - M
What I learned this week. on 01/29/2012 20:28:10 MST Print View

1. Peanut (or almond) butter and agave nectar sandwich halves or quarters are as good (if not better) than any sports bar.

2. My Inov8 Roclite 295s seem to work well for distance. The MT110 is a littl elacking for me at ~20 miles or more.

3. Certain runs are unnecessary; if you're heading out the door tired and sore, just to grudgingly get in a 5 miler to boost your weekly numbers, you're probably better off at home resting so you can get in a much better quality run the next day.

4. One or two fried or scrambled eggs (organic backyard eggs from my girls) on a piece sprouted grain toast seem to be the perfect pre- long run meal for me. Add some avocado slices for a harder day. And don't forget the black coffee (but only a half cup before a run).

5. My dog thinks brand new rolls of leukotape are awesome chew toys when left out.

Edited by xnomanx on 01/29/2012 20:36:19 MST.

Mike M
(mtwarden) - MLife

Locale: Montana
1/30 on 02/05/2012 18:06:37 MST Print View

finally hit the 30 mile mark :) next week I'm hoping to bump my long run to 12 miles and break through the 30 mile mark

I got the results of my MRI (but haven't got an appointment w/ the neurologist yet) evidently I have a bulged disc in my neck- that would explain the nerve trouble I've been having

I also tried some gel (Cliff shot) on my 10 mile run, no ill effects- actually tasted pretty good :)

ps Greg- glad the ankle is feeling better!

Art- hope the hamstring heals soon for you

Edited by mtwarden on 02/05/2012 18:08:51 MST.

Craig W.
(xnomanx) - F - M
Running Food: My Take on 02/05/2012 19:55:40 MST Print View

First off, let me say I'm not knocking anyone that uses packaged or processed running calories (gels, perpetuem, maltodextrin, etc.), but I've been looking for alternatives. Here's my take:

I'm actually driven more by the cheapskate in me, as well as not wanting to have to go to GNC, shop online, or go to sporting goods stores to get my running calories. I was about to buy some gels today but recoiled at the $1.29 price tag. For one bite?! So I'm really coming from more of a DIY, home supermarket/health food store approach.
_________________________________________________________________________

Some thoughts/stuff I like:

-Water: I gave up on sports drinks/mixes long ago during my distance cycling days. I've found water does me just fine, provided I'm getting my salt/potassium elsewhere. Using water makes life simple.

-Kettle chips: (or any other fairly straightforward/simple potato chip) I gobble them crushed. O ne ounce equals 150 calories, 16g carbs, 430mg potassium, 115 mg sodium. Compare with a Salt Stick tablet: 215mg sodium, 63 mg potassium. So far as I'm concerned, these work fine for electrolytes and calories.
I like the sea salt version.

-Pitted dates (or a small homemade date square equaling roughly 5 dates): 5 pitted dates (1.5 oz) is 120 cal., 32g carb. (29 from sugar). These have worked well for me for a quick sugar rush/pick me up. They take the place of a gel.

-Peanut or almond butter and honey or agave nectar sandwich squares: each one is a quarter sandwich, individually wrapped. Don't know the calories, but I'm getting some protein, fats, carbs, and sugars all in one.

One I'd like to try:
Adan's mini mashed potato burritos. I was envying them on this morning's run. About an inch in diameter and two or three inches long, they look nice and easy to carry. Salt, carbs, calories.

As to the convenience of eating while running or cycling: I don't eat while running or working hard on a bike. I'm not out trying to win the WS 100 or TDF. A 2-3 minute walk/food break every few miles of running on a long day is only going to conserve a little energy make me faster in the long haul anyway. It's a given that I'll be mixing in walk breaks; so those become food breaks. Periodically slowing from an 8-10 minute mile to a brief 13-14 minute/mile brisk walk isn't going to drastically effect my times. Most of the food I mention I can eat fine at a slow jog anyhow.

___________________________________________________________

All of this may be a bit bulkier than the packaged and concentrated stuff, but it's all readily available, can be kept on hand, and is fairly cheap. But ultimately, it jives with the idea that you shouldn't have to buy special food to run/do endurance sports. I like that idea. It's worked for me well so far for running and during 200+ mile/12+ hour cycling races in the past.

Edited by xnomanx on 02/05/2012 20:01:19 MST.

Craig W.
(xnomanx) - F - M
1/30 on 02/05/2012 20:16:28 MST Print View

Nice Mike, you're getting up there. Hope everything goes well.

I took it easy this week:
~33 miles, long run was about 12...don't know the elevation, but it was decent. I just needed to feel like I was taking it easier, let my legs rest a bit, etc.

Really fun run with Adan this morning...snow, mountains, blood, microspikes, snot, numb hands, sunny ridges, wind, trees, and howling like a coyote on the descent....Maybe he'll post some pics.

I've started to question how I'm running a bit: I'm not entirely sure that some of the mid-week 5-6 mile runs are really all that necessary right now. In fact, I wonder if they just leave me a little more tired come the weekend's long run. I'm actually thinking that at this point I'm going to back off the mid-week mileage a bit and add more to the long run every weekend, go into it feeling fresher. Planning on trying a week or two of only 4 days of running (including a solid long run) combined with 3 or 4 cross training sessions per week. We'll see how that works out.

Happy trails everyone.

Hiking Malto
(gg-man) - F
Greg's Marathon Training on 02/05/2012 20:24:39 MST Print View

Craig,
You are heading the direction that I went when I ran my first marathon. I hated running so I only ran once a week, a long run. Now that I really enjoy running I think that getting two to three good runs per week is much more important than weekly mileage. But each run has to have a porpoise! Maybe an intense hill workout, maybe a tempo run but I am really starting to question the wisdom of miles for miles sake. But I'm a running newbie, maybe I will be a convert!

Adan Lopez
(Lopez) - F

Locale: San Gabriel Valley
Science project on 02/05/2012 20:27:46 MST Print View

Okay so I picked up some GU gels, honey stinger waffles and gels, nuun tablets. From what I'm reading in this thread it looks like I missed either endurolytes or s-tabs. Especially since cramps have been an issue lately. I'm always coated in salt when I get home, my hat too. All my weekend runs are over 3 hrs now so I have plenty of opportunities to work this out. Today I experimented with potato burritos and they worked fine, may try wheat tortillas instead though to make them less chewy. So far my plan is PBJ and potato burritos with gels, chips, s-tabs to top it off. No weiners , sorry Craig. Anything else I need? A fresh jalapeño maybe? Jalapeño makes anything taste better!!

Craig W.
(xnomanx) - F - M
Re: Greg's Marathon Training on 02/05/2012 20:41:07 MST Print View

You said it Greg; the basic problem is that I'm losing purpose on many of my mid-week runs.
I've fought this issue before, it's a tough one, easy to just get sort of sucked into mileage for mileage's sake (though I do typically enjoy ALL of my runs).

I know what my long runs are for: to run long, to build the ability to work for a long time. From previous marathons and 50Ks and other stuff, I get this.

But the shorter, mid-week runs? It's easy for them to simply be another run, leaving me not sure what they're actually helping, specifically.

And you said it: if it's not a tempo run, not a hill workout, not something specific, what is it then? Running for running's sake is fine, but running to run doesn't necessarily lead to big gains in hill running, speed, etc.

So I guess I'm really at a crossroads: get more serious with the type of some of the workouts I'm doing, or accept a certain level of "plateau", or slower progress, in my abilities. If many of the runs are just to run, that's fine for kicks, but I question if I'm not better off skipping them and focusing more on the long day (and coming into it more fresh).

_____________________________________________________

Yeah, good look with those jalepenos Adan. Hell, throw in some chorizo and hot links while your at it. I'm not running behind you...and make sure to add some TP to your pack.

Art ...
(asandh) - F
R2R2R on 02/05/2012 21:09:11 MST Print View

...

Edited by asandh on 02/13/2012 20:58:25 MST.

Adan Lopez
(Lopez) - F

Locale: San Gabriel Valley
Big Horn Ridge today on 02/05/2012 21:55:51 MST Print View

chapman1

chapman2

chapman3

.chapman4

.chapman5

Mike M
(mtwarden) - MLife

Locale: Montana
pics on 02/06/2012 07:19:22 MST Print View

nice pics, looks like a great place to run :)

ben wood
(benwood)

Locale: flatlands of MO
Re: Big Horn Ridge today on 02/06/2012 08:47:17 MST Print View

craig, that hydration pack is so NOT punk rock.

what happened?!

Eugene Smith
(Eugeneius) - MLife

Locale: Nuevo Mexico
Re: Big Horn Ridge today on 02/06/2012 09:54:41 MST Print View

Loving these photographs from the runs fellas, thanks for the continued stoke.

So can we expect to see your snaggled toothed four legged companion Craig? I want to see his training log. Probably my favorite photo from this run is of Adan and mighty dog- Craig's dog is looking at Adan's size 14 feet saying to himself, "Damnnnnnn! Those are some big as$ feet boy!"

9 weeks and counting!

Craig W.
(xnomanx) - F - M
Re: Re: Big Horn Ridge today on 02/06/2012 09:59:54 MST Print View

That there is Adan's dog, Max. Max is a bad little man, navigates ice and snow like a trooper.

My pup stayed home that day, should've brought her. But I will be making some commemorative R2R2R dog food bowls for both of them; mine is training at about 60% of my weekly mileage right now.

Adan Lopez
(Lopez) - F

Locale: San Gabriel Valley
Max on 02/06/2012 13:50:09 MST Print View

Max is short for Maximum. He chose the name himself. He likes to chase squirrels. He doesnt know this, but I can see him slowing down so that he doesnt actually catch the squirrel.

Craig I think, had an especially good time on this run because of me, but I suspect it was not my wit. I remember looking up from my uncomfortable position in a manzanita bush at Craig, who was doubled over laughing. I swore it was the new shoes and that i dont ever fall, but I'm not sure he heard me over all the laughing. That was my third such incident that day. The only one not bleeding was Max, good times.

Mike and Greg, glad to hear you guys are feeling good. I look forward to meeting everybody. I'm learning alot through these exchanges, thanks to Art and Eugene as well. I'm following alot of your advice re: nutrition and I think it's helping.

@Ben: I think Craig's moved on from the punk rock look, he has some other interesting ideas for running attire that i think involve fur.

Hiking Malto
(gg-man) - F
Happiness is new shoes! on 02/08/2012 17:55:46 MST Print View

Every post on this forum seems to degrade into a war. So now a happy thought..... I had been wearing a fairly old pair of trail shoes on my road runs and it was time for a new pair of road shoes. So I bought a great pair of Brooks Ghosts and went to Kennesaw Mtn for a triple ascent of the mountain. Ten miles and 1600' later I am happy to report that I had the best run of my life. What a difference the shoes made. I was able to really cruise on even the steepest downhills due to the better padding. I even stuck my arms out like an airplane on a couple of the steep downhill sections, getting weird looks from the walkers. I was a very happy camper when I got back to work. The strange thing is that my legs are already getting a bit sore due to the fast pace. :)))))

Craig W.
(xnomanx) - F - M
Re: Happiness is new shoes! on 02/09/2012 21:44:43 MST Print View

Nice Greg.

"I even stuck my arms out like an airplane on a couple of the steep downhill sections, getting weird looks from the walkers."

I do the same thing when I'm getting inspired. That, or jumping off small bumps and trying to run on air. I especially enjoy yammering like a coyote.

I've been meaning to ask you about your blister/foot care routine Greg; a good topic to open for discussion here. I remember reading on your PCT journal that you found slitting them worked better than poking for drainage- I've never tried that. What else are you doing? My typical procedure is drain and leukotape, covering the loose skin of the blister with a little backwards tape or tissue first so it won't stick. I also cut the sharp corners off the leukotape to keep it from peeling. Any other tips? Did you use/carry any glue?

Hiking Malto
(gg-man) - F
Blisters on 02/10/2012 06:06:09 MST Print View

After leaving he High Sierra I took five days off in Tahoe. My feet were shredded from the snow and I went to an urgent care because a couple of the blisters were infected. The doc slit the blisters and he told me it was much more effective in keeping them drained vs just poking alone. For the rest of the hike I would keep a bandaid covering the worst blister areas. I would personally lean toward bandaids over tape to keep the adhesive away from the actual blister.

I'm not doing anything now for blisters because I haven't had any during this training. One problem that I still have is hard spots almost like a cross between a callus and wart on the otside of my foot. This was extrememely painful on my trip. I have learned to manage this by literally shaving off layers to keep the thickness down.

I have more issues with blisters out west due to the dust. I learned the hard way (again) how important it is the keep the feet clean. Hopefully I don't relearn this on the R2R2R.

Adan Lopez
(Lopez) - F

Locale: San Gabriel Valley
Blisters on 02/10/2012 07:38:24 MST Print View

Greg,
By keeping your feet clean, do you mean wash them once or twice a day, or are you saying it's best to avoid letting dust into your shoes throughout the day?

Also, we're you using any lube when you had those blister issues?

Edited by Lopez on 02/10/2012 07:42:13 MST.

Hiking Malto
(gg-man) - F
Clean feet on 02/10/2012 08:17:14 MST Print View

I took three pairs of Wrightsocks and would change them every hour or two. I did not use a lube since that will attract dust. I did use a special blend of medicated and non medicated foot powder that helped with dry lube and athletes foot. It also allowed the dirt to come off easier. This setup worked well for me and I plan on using this on the R2R2R.

Mike M
(mtwarden) - MLife

Locale: Montana
Re: Blisters on 02/10/2012 08:29:31 MST Print View

knock on wood I haven't had much of a problem w/ blisters, the few that I have had I've used a small piece of gauze and covered w/ Leukotape- I also round the edges to so it holds better, but I also use benzoin to make the adhesion even more robust

I have had very good luck w/ Hydropel in wet environs, but agree w/ Greg that for dry/dusty conditions it's not the best

Greg- what's you "secret" mix? also are you bringing multiple pairs of socks, I was thinking about throwing in one spare pair

Mike

Hiking Malto
(gg-man) - F
Re: Re: Blisters on 02/10/2012 09:16:57 MST Print View

Mike,
I would have love to have Hydropel for my time in the snow. My feet were wet for over a month solid and I think Hydropel would have helped.

I will either take two or three pairs (total), they weigh very little. My powder mix was a combination of regular foot powder, Gold Bond medicated foot powder and a lesser amount of Miconazole Nitrate 2% powder. I used pounds of this total on my trip and this seemed to be the best combination of performance and price.

Edited by gg-man on 02/10/2012 09:21:56 MST.

David Thomas
(DavidinKenai) - MLife

Locale: North Woods. Far North.
Foot care on 02/10/2012 09:57:48 MST Print View

I've had better luck on 30-40 milers when I change my socks every 10 miles. 40 miles = one pair on my feet and 3 pairs in my pack. If not that, at least rotate with another pair every 10 miles and let the previously worn pair dry out and fluff up a bit.

If I'm only bringing one pair, then every 10 miles, I take them off during a break, turn them inside out, beat them on a rock to knock out the dust, reinvert, and put them back on the other foot.

I try to do this for all hikes but am religious about it for GCNP: Trim your toothnails A WEEK in advance. You don't want that newly exposed skin to then get hammered against your shoe for 21 miles of downhill.

I know a lot of runners wear "tennis-sock" length - just above the shoe. For dusty trails, I like a little more height so that more of the dust goes outside the sock instead of inside against my skin.

Art ...
(asandh) - F
Re: Foot care on 02/10/2012 10:08:53 MST Print View

boy you guys are dedicated to protecting your feet, and I applaud you for it.

Edited by asandh on 02/13/2012 20:50:53 MST.

Craig W.
(xnomanx) - F - M
Foot care on 02/10/2012 10:53:34 MST Print View

Nothing fancy for me on the R2R2R. I'll be carrying a little leukotape just in case. Beside that, I'll just switch socks and clean my feet off real quick at the North rim.

Eugene Smith
(Eugeneius) - MLife

Locale: Nuevo Mexico
blisters on 02/10/2012 11:13:57 MST Print View

Sockless or not, blisters have not been an issue for my feet. (*knock on wood)

Shoes that have open mesh uppers with a wide/roomy toebox and snug midfoot/heel that doesn't force my toes into the front of the shoe has worked very well for me. Mesh uppers aren't ideal in keeping out fine sediment and sand from my trails, but they do a hell of a job in allowing my feet to remain dry.

I will be wearing whatever relatively clean socks I have at the time I load up my pack for the road. ;-)

Nick Gatel
(ngatel) - MLife

Locale: Southern California
Re: Foot care on 02/10/2012 11:54:24 MST Print View

For this adventure, if you are all running regularly it shouldn't be a problem and Craig's solution should work... carrying a little tape. For this type of terrain and weather, I find the Wright Socks to be excellent. Normally I use merino wool socks on most trips though.

On other thing is to be cautious about impact injuries to the foot, especially on the downhills when you are tired and do not have as much control as you do on the uphills. A couple years ago I must have stepped on a sharp rock (note: I was wearing XC flats, which do not have a rock plate), while hiking, not running. I did not feel the impact, but everyone in a while it felt like my insole had split and was pinching my foot. After a couple miles, I took off my shoe and did not see anything and my foot looked okay... no visible injury. I hiked another 4 miles and made night camp. The next morning, the entire ball of my foot was one huge blister. Lancing it did no seem like a good idea. Hiked about 10 miles on mostly snow, then once out of the snow the blister popped on its own. It bother me some for the next 10 miles, and then the last 5 miles was somewhat painful. But I just kept hiking without taking off my shoe to do any first aid. The next morning it had dried out completely, and I just left the dead skin in place. No problem hiking the next day, which was a 6,000 foot descent and then several miles of hot flat walking in 100+ temperature. Anyway, for short trips sometimes it is better to leave things be than do too much first aid.

Long thru hikes are a completely different matter.

Nick Gatel
(ngatel) - MLife

Locale: Southern California
Offer for So Cal Runners on 02/10/2012 12:12:00 MST Print View

For those who have not done this kind of elevation loss and gain, the downhills are the brutal part. So you need to do a lot of steep elevation training, going downhill especially. The downhills can be absolutely brutal.

If you would like a severe training run a couple weeks before the trip, I am willing to help with logistics on a Desert Skyline Trail training run in Palm Springs. The trail is 11 miles long, with a 8,000' elevation gain. The last 1,000' you may want to skip. But a 7,000' uphill run and then return might be beneficial. The first 3,000 foot gain will be tough and running back down this section might not be a good idea, but just hiking it will be very beneficial after you have ran up 7,000' and then ran down 4,000'.

The trail will probably be hot after 10 AM, so you want to start around 7 AM or earlier. There is no water. When you get to 7,000' gain, you cannot risk going back down without enough water in your pack. And if you are too tired, you best not try to return, safer to hike up the last 1,000' which is the steepest section, and then take the tram down.

I can hike from the top down, and if anyone is having difficulty, I can bring extra water and lead you up to the tram. This section is not well marked in places, so you would want someone who knows the route to assist. Also, there could be snow and ice on this section, you might need to bring microspikes. Should not be any snow at 7,000' gain mark.

If everyone makes it to 7,000' and feels they can make it back down okay, then I will just hike down to the bottom, that way if anyone has difficulties I can help. I am getting too old to do this kind of a run, but hiking it is not too difficult.

Mike M
(mtwarden) - MLife

Locale: Montana
Re: Offer for So Cal Runners on 02/10/2012 12:53:06 MST Print View

Nick- if I was any where near close I'd definitely take you up on the offer :) I've got "hills" to run, wishing I had mountains!

Mike

Adan Lopez
(Lopez) - F

Locale: San Gabriel Valley
Skyline on 02/10/2012 14:38:39 MST Print View

That's an amazing offer Nick, thank you very much.

I'll have to see when something like that might work into my training, it definitely wouldnt be anywhere in the 3 weeks before the event. Is that a portion of the same 'cactus to clouds' hike you did with Craig? I need more time in the San Jacintos! I would be interested in doing that even after the GC. Especially now that I'm much more confident in my abilities.

I'm thinking that after the GC I'll be in the best shape of my life (hopefully) so what better time to see much of our local wilderness, right? I'm excited, I've seen so many new trails and mountains in just the past few months, I'm just going to keep going and see it all!

Nick Gatel
(ngatel) - MLife

Locale: Southern California
Re: Skyline on 02/10/2012 15:00:37 MST Print View

Adan,

Yes it is the first part of the C2C, but it is all desert.

Hiking Malto
(gg-man) - F
Lesson Learned - Training to Rest on 02/12/2012 15:13:23 MST Print View

I had a "character building" run today. It wasn't that tough on paper, only 16.5 miles with 2700' elevation gain. But I didn't allow enough recovery from my two hill repeat runs during the week, less than 48 hours from the one on Friday. So I experienced about 6 miles of completely spent legs. It stinks when your head tells your legs to move and they just laugh. The problem was also compounded by the fact that I did a pretty good weight workout yesterday, so my upper body wasn't much help. So I am starting to believe that the optimal training plan is not to focus on the runs but rather to focus on the rest. So if I could have taken an additional full day off then I could have pushed myself harder on the run and finished another 5.5 mile lap which I think would have resulted in a better overall training experience.

But who knows, I may discover that running on tired legs is the best thing since Maltodextrin and unlearn the lesson of today. That is the great thing about endurance training, it's still as much art as science!

So, what do you all think? Train to rest or run on tired legs, which is better?

Mike M
(mtwarden) - MLife

Locale: Montana
rest on 02/12/2012 15:26:25 MST Print View

Greg- I'll defer to someone more knowledgeable than me :)

I will say that I'm going to skip my Thursday run next week to give me two days of rest for my long run on Saturday, my Thursday run wasn't that great (3 miles that felt like 5) and on my long run my legs felt tired, that'll surely mean less miles in a week, but thinking my long run will go better (if doesn't I'll rethink this strategy)

btw got my longest run of my "career" 12 miles in on Saturday! :)

Mike

Craig W.
(xnomanx) - F - M
We tried. on 02/12/2012 17:30:49 MST Print View

Adan and I had quite the epic yesterday.
The plan was to hike/run the entire Gabrielino Trail and out to my house, a trip of roughly 31 miles.
The day started well enough, miles rolled by, we felt good. By about 9 miles the weather started to turn; neither of us were expecting rain and didn't have anything but windshirts and trash bags. In addition, due to recent fires and winds, the trail started to really deteriorate. We ended up taking a 4-5 mile detour with a good deal of climbing because we couldn't find it. Backtracking, we found ourselves glissading a 100', steep dirt slope to get back on course. Then the rain started. We had windshirts but figured they should be kept dry for later, just in case. So wearing trashbags as shirts, we went another 5 miles in the rain. At this point we reached the "halfway" point, but instead of 15 miles, we had covered 20. Soaked and getting cold, it would be dark in another hour...we thought the worst was behind us.
At roughly 26 miles in, the trail that would lead us out to my house was marked with a closed sign. Due to the damage we saw everywhere, we figured it was in bad shape. Not wanting to risk eroded trails on high cliffs in the dark (an initial concern I had about parts of this route), we decided to take another canyon that would lead us to a pass, down another canyon, and home.
I knew it was a fairly rough canyon, but had no idea it would be as bad as it was. 50' trees were down in sections, the entire canyon was virtually without trail, we were getting soaked by vegetation and stream crossings...pretty epic bushwhack conditions at times, route finding was a nightmare.
It soon became apparent we were on a fool's errand trying to get to the pass this way. Given the blow downs and wildness of the canyon, we could walk right passed it in the dark. And that was assuming that the pass was even climbable in these conditions...let alone what could be waiting on the other side.
Screwed. Fortunately, the rain had stopped for the night.
So we backtracked another 3-4 miles back to a campground and hiked out the road, hoping to get cell service, hitch a ride, or knock on the door of a fire station to use the phone. At this point we were hiking/running almost 13 hours.
Fortunately we quickly hitched a ride out, the guy was even kind enough to drop us off at my house.
Overall the trip was 30 miles and ~9600' of gain.
I'm sure Adan could add some better commentary. Not too many pics, my camera died pretty quick.

1
Adan

2
Me

3

4

Hiking Malto
(gg-man) - F
The Weekend on 02/12/2012 17:55:47 MST Print View

Craig,
Sounds like you and Adan had a trip to remember. It's funny, on most of my long day hikes/runs I have had full gear to spend the night out in the wild. I have never needed to but someday I know it will come.

Mike,
Great job on record breaking run!

Nick Gatel
(ngatel) - MLife

Locale: Southern California
Re: Lesson Learned - Training to Rest on 02/12/2012 18:00:38 MST Print View

Depends...

How many days a week are you running?

If you are running 5, 6, or 7 days a week, then the day after a big distance or particularly physical run, you might want to do a "recovery run" the next day. This run is generally at a very easy pace on easy terrain. You will get tired, but the purpose is to improve your overall fitness. If you are only running 3 days a week, then rest days are important.

Nick Gatel
(ngatel) - MLife

Locale: Southern California
Re: We tried. on 02/12/2012 18:01:59 MST Print View

Sounds more than a training run -- an adventure. Good for you guys! Now you have something neat to talk about for a long time.

Mike M
(mtwarden) - MLife

Locale: Montana
trip on 02/12/2012 20:13:31 MST Print View

good story, but that doesn't sound too awfully fun to me

I tend to prefer the "good" epic trips :)

Eugene Smith
(Eugeneius) - MLife

Locale: Nuevo Mexico
"2012 R2R2R Group - Training Log's" on 02/12/2012 20:48:21 MST Print View

Good week all around fella's!

@Mike, congrats on your personal best, that has to be a really good feeling- keep at it man!

@ Greg,

You raise a good question! I think I lean towards running on tired legs over training to rest, at least for ultra distance stuff. Running 6 days a week doesn't leave much time for static recovery days, so at some point(s) during the week running on tired and slightly fatigued legs is going to happen and becomes a normal part of a training cycle. I'm currently managing 5 days a week running, but would prefer it be 6, which seems to work best for me.

@Craig and Adan,

Nuts man! One of many positive things to take from your run is that you both got in some serious time on your feet. The expressions on both of your faces says it all.

Edited by Eugeneius on 02/12/2012 20:49:52 MST.

Eugene Smith
(Eugeneius) - MLife

Locale: Nuevo Mexico
a few photos from the afternoon. on 02/12/2012 21:16:50 MST Print View

Good week.

A few photos that I managed to take this afternoon.

rest

clouds

snow

mist

mist 2

Brendan Swihart
(brendans) - MLife

Locale: Fruita CO
Re: "2012 R2R2R Group - Training Log's" on 02/12/2012 21:28:13 MST Print View

Just want to say what a joy this thread has been to read. I can't quite put my finger on it, but has all the fixins of a great trip report but it's a months-long trip and the reporting is ongoing and coming from different people, different places, different personalities, different experience levels.

Keep up the good work; I'm bummed it didn't work out to join y'all.

Art ...
(asandh) - F
Re: Re: "2012 R2R2R Group - Training Log's" on 02/12/2012 22:47:14 MST Print View

Great photos again as usual guys.

Edited by asandh on 02/13/2012 20:49:46 MST.

Adan Lopez
(Lopez) - F

Locale: San Gabriel Valley
The long day on 02/13/2012 00:00:16 MST Print View

As Craig likes to say, Saturday was like fun, only different. After a few hours of scrambling over downed trees and "post holing" in the creek in the dark, we realized that there was no way home. Every layer i had was wet. We already did 25 miles and 12 hours of work, and now we were thrashing around a good while trying to find anything resembling a trail that would take us out, and suddenly it felt like our trip was really just about to begin.

I've had a few trips now where my nerves have been tried. Each time I find it immensely rewarding. Looking back, about the only thing we did wrong was to plan a "training" run over 30 miles of remote trail that had recently undergone a lot of change and for which nobody could provide first hand knowledge of conditions. Great choice for an adventure, not so much for a training run.

Lessons learned:

You can go much longer than you think.
No matter how soggy, pruned or blistered...Just wipe your feet well and Leukotape will stay put.
Take extra gels for the epic you didn't know was coming.
Map and compass can help, but patience and methodical route finding skills is necessary, especially in steep canyons.
We miss out on a lot of adventures because we plan too much.
The reason you carry that fire steel is so you can still laugh when you get stuck out there.
On "fun" trips, take Craig.

Hey Craig, next week lets go do that 7'000 ft climb of Mt Baldy, I'm in the mood for something easy!

torrey saylor
(everyday) - F

Locale: south rim
R2R2R Training log ..sorta on 02/17/2012 17:54:18 MST Print View

dang, you guys are all organized an' keepin a record of your miles! Cool. Um , I just run as much as I can for an hour or 2 or 3 a day, like 6 to 30 miles depending on how much time I have. Anywhere from 24 to 50 miles a week I guess. As the days get longer I run more, In the snow I run less but its harder. so, uh, yea, thats what I do. I just like running, Its fun :) I never go to a gym or anything, I have a Kettlebell and do swings n stuff like 20 mins a day, when I remember, and flutter-kicks, which are harder than they sound! Mostly I just like running, I liked when i was unemployed cause I could run all day out in the desert, and the santa rosas and san Jacinto by Palm Springs. but now I work full time so I cant. But at least my work is at another good running place! Im rambling, ha. But 24-50 a week is pretty accurate, all on trails.

Oh and I rock climb too, that counts as cross training yes? ha


@ NICK--yea! I lived right there in Palm Springs until I got the job out here last summer (2011) and have done the skyline numerous times! Its a perfect GC training ground!

Edited by everyday on 02/17/2012 19:13:28 MST.

Adan Lopez
(Lopez) - F

Locale: San Gabriel Valley
Good week on 02/18/2012 01:32:13 MST Print View

Sounds like a positive upswing on the reporting lately!!! Nice.

@mike, congrats on the 12er! Those first double digits are exciting, some real inspiring Stuff going on in this thread for me.
@Brendan, I totally had forgotten that other folks are folowing this. Good to hear that others are getting as much out of this as I am. Even before I decided to join, I found this thread inspiring me to push harder out there.
@Greg, since I started running my kit consists of only the minimal Mylar blanket, fire starter, etc and I gotta say even that night with everything wet and no change of clothes, I felt completely comfortable about staying out. But then I was in good company too. The only concern we had was worrying our families. from the stuff you've done, I'm sure youre got a darn good comfort level out there yourself.
@eugene, sweet foto-grafy, you are the master cameragician.
@Torrey, that's cool you can just run for the feel. I was doing the same, though at much lower mileage, until I got on this trip. This will be the biggest thing I've ever gotten into and the logs have really helped me keep things real and see my goals more clearly. I generally dislike numbers and regiments creeping into my time outside but this has been fun.

My training is shaping up nicely, starting to feel like a 40 mile week is a good base for me now, which is exciting progress. run well friends.

Eugene Smith
(Eugeneius) - MLife

Locale: Nuevo Mexico
"2012 R2R2R Group - Training Log's" on 02/19/2012 10:34:28 MST Print View

This was sort of an off week on my end wrapping up final preparations for the 2012 Sierra Vista Trail Runs which was extremely successful! On Saturday we had ~70 runners and 25+ volunteers gather on a chilly morning out in the desert to run distances ranging from the 5 mile, 1/2 marathon, and the full marathon. For a free event, this was pretty badas$. There were a few snafus with the communication and bib system but other than that the race was a complete joy to put together and work. A dude from Milwaukee, WI won the marathon with a time of 3:35, which may not sound fast, but on this stretch of trail is incredible. Putting races on is equally as fun as running them.

A few of my favorite photos from the race. I may be putting this event on next year, not sure the participants from this year will have it any other way.

win
Kane Baker "Marathon Maniac", winner of the marathon, 3:35:00...flew in from Milwaukee, arrived at midnight, ran, won, then went on to fly back to Maryland to run another marathon on Sunday. I don't get guys like him.

run
Runners heading due south along the Sierra Vista Trail towards El Paso, TX.

start
Jim Breyfogle, race director for the Deadman Peak 50 and Cedro Peak 45, and ultramarathon maniac.

director
Dan Carter, aka "Salty Dog", doing his best to be the creepiest dirt bagging race co-director possible.

dan
Dan Hewins, who's joining us at the R2R2R in April, signing in runners.

marty
My father in law, Marty Miera, crossing the finish line in 5:02, a personal best for him on a really tough course.

Edited by Eugeneius on 02/19/2012 10:41:18 MST.

Mike M
(mtwarden) - MLife

Locale: Montana
event on 02/19/2012 14:12:17 MST Print View

Eugene- looks like you guys pulled off a great event- congrats!

my training week went pretty good, I skipped my Thursday run w/ the thought it would boost my long Saturday run- it may have, but I made the mistake of hitting squats pretty hard on Friday so my quads were pretty trashed on Saturday. I won't make that mistake again next week and will try skipping Thursday again.

Eugene- check your email, sent you a short message- thanks

Mike

Art ...
(asandh) - F
Re: "2012 R2R2R Group - Training Log's" on 02/19/2012 16:16:00 MST Print View

Looks like a fun, successful day Eugene.
even a low key event is a lot of work.
Great job.

Eugene Smith
(Eugeneius) - MLife

Locale: Nuevo Mexico
"2012 R2R2R Group - Training Log's" on 02/20/2012 09:16:25 MST Print View

Thanks fellas, it was incredible fun watching people come in with smiles, tears, blood and scrapes, every possible emotion. There was a gentleman in his late 70's who ran and he finished with a huge smile, nothing more inspiring and humbling than that in my book. I was on my feet working the race from 6am until 6pm and didn't realize how tired I was until after I got up from my seat at the brewery afterwards. Can I log those hours as time on my feet? ;-)

@Mike,

Send your stuff my way- PM sent. Also, my current email is: imeugeneius (at) gmail dot com

We're getting pretty close now aren't we? 7 weeks or so. Days are getting longer here and the trees and desert brusg are starting to bud and leaf a little. Ran this morning a little after 6 and didn't need my headlamp.

P. Larson
(reacttocontact) - F
Re: "2012 R2R2R Group - Training Log's" on 02/20/2012 10:12:30 MST Print View

Did I miss the date this is happening? Is this just a bunch of people from BPL doing it or? Gimme details...please?

Hiking Malto
(gg-man) - F
Event Details on 02/20/2012 10:20:22 MST Print View

Paul, Here's all the details:

http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/forums/thread_display.html?forum_thread_id=55804&skip_to_post=510617#510617

Craig W.
(xnomanx) - F - M
Re: "2012 R2R2R Group - Training Log's" on 02/20/2012 18:16:55 MST Print View

Good job Eugene. If I lived closer, I would've been out there to run it for sure.

Here we go folks; just under 8 weeks. The next I'll be trying to kick it up pretty good, leaving the last week and a half for rest.

Mike M
(mtwarden) - MLife

Locale: Montana
prognosis/tickets purchased on 02/20/2012 18:47:39 MST Print View

I finally got into a neurologist today, I indeed have a bulged disc (between c6/c7) and no surprise it's on the left side (that's where all my trouble is/was). As I'm now pain free and have no numbness or tingling and the only symptom currently is some weakness in my upper left quadrant -that appears to be improving (definitely not getting worse), he felt that surgery shouldn't even be considered. Told him I was running and he thought that was fine as long as it doesn't bring on pain. Encouraged me to keep lifting/exercising to encourage the motor nerves to heal. Anyway was glad I didn't have to contemplate surgery or make any major changes in my life style.

With that got my tickets ordered today :)

Grand Canyon here I come!

Eugene Smith
(Eugeneius) - MLife

Locale: Nuevo Mexico
"2012 R2R2R Group - Training Log's" on 02/20/2012 22:31:11 MST Print View

Mike is game!

Edited by Eugeneius on 02/20/2012 22:32:29 MST.

Ike Jutkowitz
(Ike) - M

Locale: Central Michigan
Good Luck on 02/21/2012 05:06:25 MST Print View

Good luck, guys. I'm envious. Looking forward to seeing the report afterward!

Craig W.
(xnomanx) - F - M
Re: "2012 R2R2R Group - Training Log's" on 02/24/2012 00:00:01 MST Print View

Hope everyone's running is good. I'm enjoying myself out here.

Mike, you've come a ways! I was looking at your log and remembering your excitement at your first 20 mile week...now you're consistently logging over 30. Good on you, hope it's all going OK still.

torrey saylor
(everyday) - F

Locale: south rim
training on 02/24/2012 05:34:51 MST Print View

hellos! heres a neat article i found that may be good for the guys who dont have lotsa hills n mtns around. :) The bottom half of the page tells what workouts to do ta build your uphill strength if u dont have mtns. The very bottom, for stabilizer muscles is super important. Ya need those lil guys to keep you from gettin hurt out here

heres tha link http://runningtimes.com/Print.aspx?articleID=19742

Edited by everyday on 02/24/2012 15:10:13 MST.

Art ...
(asandh) - F
North Kaibab Info on 02/24/2012 09:40:23 MST Print View

torrey
I've been on North Kaibab twice but my memory is a bit foggy.
are there two houses along that trail?
which one is the "pump house" ?
who lives in the one nearest the Roaring Springs turnoff ?

torrey saylor
(everyday) - F

Locale: south rim
R2R2R on 02/24/2012 15:08:44 MST Print View

Well, ive only been as far as roaring springs, Thats where the pump house is, some painter guy lives there, never seen him. Theres also a cabin at Cottonwood camp, its where a ranger/rangers live n stay when doing trail work. those are the 2 ive seen after Phantom....now if theres another past the pumphouse I dunno, going with you guys will be the first time goin farther than that :)

Hiking Malto
(gg-man) - F
Run or hike? on 02/26/2012 07:41:54 MST Print View

Did a long trip up on the AT yesterday. Not that it matters but I'm having a tough time figuring out if it was a hike or a run. I fast walked all the flats and uphills but did an easy trot on the downhills. I ended up with a moving averaging of 3.8mph which is my fastest hike but my slowest run. But I learned a couple of things.
1) I had been going back and forth on what pack or belt to take. I have that decided. I took my MLD Burn and tied the compression loops on the back together and it end up making a fanny pack with shoulder straps. Very comfortable and I will take this on the R2R2R. It nice because that pack and I have been through a lot together.
2) This may make trail runners cringe but I am going to take trekking poles. I did over 10k in elevation gain yesterday and the trekking poles allowed me to glide on the downhills and power the uphills. Given the R2R2R only has two hills I can always chose to stow them if they become a hinderance on the downhills.
3) My trip last almost 12 hours and I trialed the food that I had planned on taking. 1800 calories of Malto and the same in various candy bars. I was pretty disciplined in doing 300 calories per hour and I maintained energy the whole 40 miles. In fact it was the strongest 40 miler that I have done. I also took electrolytes as I did on my thru hike and I also did a healthy dose at the end and it was effective in keeping any cramping at bay.

One final thought. I have suggested to a few 2012 PCT hikers to trail run vs. hike in training if they are pressed for time. Based on my experience yesterday I think there that was solid advice. I am actually a much stronger hiker this year than last in spite of this being the only hike over 10 miles in the last six months.

Edited by gg-man on 02/27/2012 08:06:57 MST.

Art ...
(asandh) - F
Re: Run or hike? on 02/26/2012 08:46:50 MST Print View

Wow Greg, I'd say you are doing great and ready for the R2R2R as is..
A lot of ultra running is actually power hiking, and your overall pace is pretty good.
Some ultra races allow hiking poles and some runners do use them, Wasatch 100 and Hardrock 100 come to mind. Karl Meltzer even uses them on occassion.
From your PCT experience, you have your nutrition dialed in like few I've seen.

Mike M
(mtwarden) - MLife

Locale: Montana
trekking poles on 02/26/2012 18:40:52 MST Print View

Greg- I've thought about trekking poles too, haven't made my mind up yet though

as far as packs, I think I'm going w/ my Talon 4 lumbar pack (possibly my 5.5 daypack)

while I didn't get a lot of running in this past week I consider it a good week, my runs on Wed and Sun were weathered out and I hit the stairmaster- this piece of machinery continues to kick my ar$e; Thursday and Friday my wife and I got away for a couple of days of x-country skiiing- this also thoroughly kicked my ar$e- so in summary a good week of getting my ar$e kicked :)

this doesn't sound like much, but I finally tried doing pushups again (have been doing them against the wall or on my knees) and was able to get 3 sets of 20- a long, long way from where I was before the impingement, but I can't tell you how good it felt to be able to do pushups again!

Mike

Eugene Smith
(Eugeneius) - MLife

Locale: Nuevo Mexico
"2012 R2R2R Group - Training Log's" on 02/26/2012 21:42:10 MST Print View

You're a machine Greg, awesome time on the trail! Running? Hiking? Poles? Doesn't really matter yeah, as long as you complete the distance you've set out to run and enjoy yourself out there in April, which it sounds like you will be prime for a good double crossing with training runs like yesterday.

I was telling Craig in an email this week that I have a healthy amount of nervousness mixed with a stronger dose of excitement, it's getting close. These next 6 weeks are crunch time and hopefully I will be ready for an enjoyable experience. One thing is for sure I will be scraping the bottom of the barrel climbing up S. Kaibab. Today was a solid 20 mile run for me and Dan with some steep climbing thrown in and some downhill running for the last 5 miles, but our time on the feet was 3.5 hours, so not a long run that benefits being on the feet for 4x that duration come April 14th, but still fitness building I think. Fitting in the slower weekend long runs is killing me! Its hard to get out for the extended time. I feel like I'm juggling 5 balls at once and dropping 3 of them by the end of the week. Hopefully this upcoming weekend plan work out, we're shooting for a ~30 mile run this coming up Sunday up in the Sacramento Mountains, starting from the Tularosa basin at 4,000' and getting up around 8,000+', then turning around and re-running our steps back down. Fun.

You all are inspiring me to keep on trucking!

I haven't even begun to dial in gear, most likely going with 2 handhelds, and my running pack. I'm toying with the idea of throwing in x2 24oz. bottles inside my pack in place of the bladder, for ease in refilling at the water stops. Bladders in general are a pain in the as$. I'll have my game plan dialed in before hand, but right now just keeping it together.

Eugene Smith
(Eugeneius) - MLife

Locale: Nuevo Mexico
"2012 R2R2R Group - Training Log's" on 02/29/2012 12:43:05 MST Print View

I just wanted to check in and let you all know that you guys rock.

That is all.

Art ...
(asandh) - F
Re: "2012 R2R2R Group - Training Log's" on 02/29/2012 12:51:07 MST Print View

Eugene just saw in previuos post a plan to run at 8,000ft. are you getting that altitude in often? a big help come RRR day.

Eugene Smith
(Eugeneius) - MLife

Locale: Nuevo Mexico
"2012 R2R2R Group - Training Log's" on 02/29/2012 13:25:10 MST Print View

No Art, I really wish that were the case.

I live at ~4,000' and have access to several running/hiking trails locally that top out around 7,000', highest point in our valley is 8,990' (Organ Needle). The route leading up to Organ Needle gains ~3,690' from the TH, but the majority of the ascent is Class 3 scrambling, so not exactly running terrain other than the lower 1/3 of the 6.8 mile round trip route. A good workout either way.

It's a relatively short (1-2hr.) drive to mountains in the 10,000-11,000' range, but we don't typically make the effort to get out for those runs....gas and time of course! Our run on Sunday will top out around 9,200' if trail conditions are relatively clear up top.

Here's a link:

http://www.explorenm.com/hikes/DogCanyon/

The full route:

http://m.gpsies.com/map.do;jsessionid=7F4DEADD394C208B06A0466D7C87353B?fileId=xxcykjgmjomyyspf

We're planning to go beyond the top of Dog Canyon to Sunspot (National Solar Observatory) and retrace our steps back down. Dog Canyon replicates the climb from the Colorado River to the N. Rim fairly well I think.

5,409' ascent, roughly equivalent descent. 26 miles round trip.

Adan Lopez
(Lopez) - F

Locale: San Gabriel Valley
Dog Canyon on 02/29/2012 14:18:32 MST Print View

Eugene,
Dog Canyon looks amazing, have a good run man. I've been spending quite alot of time up high lately, climbing many of my local peaks and all. But those pics of Creosote, Ocotillo and Yucca in Dog Canyon make me miss the deserts. Craig's been thinking about a long day in the desert, maybe I can talk him into a runabout in Gatel's back yard. I trust you'll treat us to some eye candy next week? I enjoy your photos, homie.

Adan Lopez
(Lopez) - F

Locale: San Gabriel Valley
Mike and Greg on 02/29/2012 14:48:51 MST Print View

Just reading back through some of the things Mike and Greg have had to deal with along the way. Inspiring to see how well both of you handle the twists and turns (no pun intended) of ankle or back injury. I limped out of a 17 mile mountain run the other day, I'm fine now I think, but man it had me worried for a minute. Eugene's right, you guys rock. Props, fellas.

Mike M
(mtwarden) - MLife

Locale: Montana
handhelds on 03/01/2012 12:53:57 MST Print View

Adan- thanks, it has been a challenge at times- appears I've been in good company though!

I just ordered two handhelds (20 oz each)- I was going to use my Talon 4 w/ two 20 oz bottles, but while I can carry a few bits of clothing and food in the pack portion- more water would be challenging

soooo- I think I'll go w/ the two handhelds (will start training w/ them when they arrive) and use my Talon 5.5 pack instead- I won't have a bladder in it, instead two 1 liter platy's (one left empty)- gives me a little more room for clothing/food to boot

I'm pretty sure 72 oz of water should do me for the 7 mile stretch to Phantom, 7 miles to Cottonwood and 2 to Roaring- if the angels are really singing in my ears and I feel like a million bucks :), I can fill the empty platy giving me over 100 oz for the grind of North Kaibab

Mike

Art ...
(asandh) - F
Re: handhelds on 03/01/2012 13:10:13 MST Print View

Mike
if you plan to use 2 handhelds, definitely use them in training between now and RRR.
the extra weight in each hand takes a little getting used to.

there are at least 2 ways to carry a bottle when combined with bottle harness:
a. with your hand thru the loop and grasping the bottle.
b. simply grasping the loop and letting the bottle hang.
and
c. you can even do a variation of b. by grasping the loop of both bottle harnesses in one hand (letting bottles hang) to give your other hand a rest, or eat something or whatever.

so several variations to keep your hands from seizing up over time.

there are many bottle harnesses on the market but my favorite is Ultimate Direction.
problem is I don't like their bottles and they come as a set, so I end up giving the bottle away and using the harness with a different bottle.

Ultimate Direction

Edited by asandh on 03/01/2012 13:15:23 MST.

Mike M
(mtwarden) - MLife

Locale: Montana
Re: Re: handhelds on 03/01/2012 16:13:02 MST Print View

Art- thanks, I'll give each a try. Ultimate Direction Fastdraw + is what I ordered :), I don't mind the bottles that came w/ the Talon so I can fall back on them if need be

Eugene Smith
(Eugeneius) - MLife

Locale: Nuevo Mexico
bottles on 03/01/2012 16:32:10 MST Print View

Just a preference, I happen to prefer the Fastdraw + Extreme, which has a neoprene cozy around the body of the bottle. This comes in handy when I do beer miles. ;-) I kid......

In all seriousness though, the Fastdraw Plus Extreme (*ridiculous name) rests in my hand better and requires less adjusting and re-tensioning of the side compression strap as time goes by. Both the Plus and Plus Extreme are solid, comes down to preference and fit I suppose.

Mike, the cheapo classic Specialized bottles fit well in the Ultimate Direction holders, the mouth on those bottles are wider and easier to pour drink mixes and ice into.....not that we'll have the luxury of ice in April.

Mike M
(mtwarden) - MLife

Locale: Montana
Re: bottles on 03/01/2012 16:38:58 MST Print View

I never thought about the neoprene as a possible better fit- figured I didn't need any cooling so went w/ the +

the bottles that came w/ the Osprey are widemouth as well, nothing too fancy just a pull spout on top- they don't leak either which is plus :)

Art ...
(asandh) - F
Re: Re: bottles on 03/01/2012 16:55:46 MST Print View

the real trick is running with 2 handhelds and a flashlight.
I run at night with both a headlamp and a handheld flashlight.
took a while to solve my preference for that one.
helps to have a narrow long light, with a wrist strap.

Mike M
(mtwarden) - MLife

Locale: Montana
Re: Re: Re: bottles on 03/01/2012 20:19:08 MST Print View

not sure how accurate this study was, but kind of poo-poos handhelds

http://runningtimes.com/Article.aspx?ArticleID=18677

Art ...
(asandh) - F
Re: Re: Re: Re: bottles on 03/01/2012 22:02:09 MST Print View

all I know is anecdotally what I see in the ultra races I run.
most pepole at the front of the pack use handhelds.
bladders on the back become more common in the mid to back half of the pack.
I don't think the method makes you faster, but the fast guys must know something.
my guess is the study is not wrong, but the use of handhelds is more about efficiency of time than efficiency of energy, and that mirrors my personal experience. overall (time v.s.energy) the front runners opt for time, but they are in pretty great shape.

I have also volunteered at ultra aid stations. the handheld guys tend to get in and out of the aid stations quite a bit faster.

in a hike situation where time is not a central focus there may be better options than two handhelds.

Edited by asandh on 03/01/2012 22:24:36 MST.

Adan Lopez
(Lopez) - F

Locale: San Gabriel Valley
Handhelds on 03/02/2012 22:49:07 MST Print View

Art,
thAt wrist light idea is good. I'm going to rig one up.

David Thomas
(DavidinKenai) - MLife

Locale: North Woods. Far North.
Re: Re: Re: Re: bottles on 03/02/2012 23:22:32 MST Print View

Mike: That study echos my intial thoughts: waving weight around is wasting effort compared to carrying it at a constant speed and height. Just like a pound off your feet is worth 7 pounds off your back and rim weight on a bike is much worse than frame weight, anything you're pumping up and down in your hand is going to be more energy expended. Much like having things lashed securely to your pack is easier to carry than having loose, bouncy and swinging stuff on your pack.

Maybe the elite runners have upper body strength to spare. Or maybe the seconds lost futzing with a pack are never regained, so they go with handhelds.

Craig W.
(xnomanx) - F - M
Bottles on 03/02/2012 23:39:40 MST Print View

I've done both bladders and bottles. I haven't used a bladder hiking or running in a long time.
While bottles may take more energy, I think they're easier in other ways. I'm hardly a front of the pack runner, but I've come to like bottles for a few reasons.

My experiences:
-easier to regulate how much you're drinking; I don't like bladders because I cannot see how much water I have left. With bottles I can pace myself depending on weather/exertion- .5 per hour, 1 per hour, 1.5 per hour, etc. This is my main reason for bottles over bladders.
-faster to fill; especially annoying to refill bladders from streams- messing with hoses, etc.
-you can add calories to them more conveniently (i.e. Perpetuem- which I just discovered I like)
-personal preference; I don't care for drinking from hoses.


Bottles don't always have to be handheld though. I find I often only hold one while I have two in my pack; that's likely how I'll roll for the R2R2R. I don't notice the weight in my hand at all.

Edited by xnomanx on 03/02/2012 23:57:47 MST.

Mike M
(mtwarden) - MLife

Locale: Montana
Re: Bottles on 03/03/2012 08:11:12 MST Print View

Craig- agreed, the inability to know what's left in the bladder is definitely a drawback, as is the re-filling- it is very handy for drinking though

I'm also going to be carrying a bottle of Perpetuem as well, can't say that I love the taste (orange), but it appears to be easy on my stomach and it's quick/easy calories (and electrolytes) :)

I've really liked running w/ my Talon 4, bottles are pretty handy, has nice belt pouches and the main compartment is just large enough for a few pieces of clothing, food, emergency gear, but not quite large enough for more water and I don't want to take the risk of running low at the Canyon- I think for a mountain run (or anywhere where water is more plentiful) it would be near perfect

Photobucket

Mike

Eugene Smith
(Eugeneius) - MLife

Locale: Nuevo Mexico
bottle holders on 03/03/2012 08:21:10 MST Print View

Mike,

You're going about the waist pack all wrong brother.

belt

Mike M
(mtwarden) - MLife

Locale: Montana
Re: bottle holders on 03/03/2012 08:30:20 MST Print View

looks like I can scratch that off of my must invent list :)

Dan Hewins
(hewinsd) - F

Locale: Chihuahuan Desert
setup on 03/03/2012 23:19:29 MST Print View

Other than my first ultra, where I totally over thought my 'setup' in a lot of ways this is the second time that I have really given much thought to bottles and packs, storage capacity, layers etc... During an event with well stocked fairly frequent aid stations manned by competent/friendly/willing volunteers I am pretty much a 1 handheld and a few gels kind of runner. However, the prospect of basically running across and up the canyon twice has made me leantoward a higher water carrying capacity and a few odds and ends that are more indicative of the kind of running you see on a self supported stage type race. I am pretty sure I am inching closer to what I'll be carrying on my back come April 14. No matter what I know I am going to employ the "keep it simple stupid" (KISS) strategy and pre-measure my powders making 'drug baggies' of HEED/Perpetuem - or maybe carry those fizzy tabs that have been known to cause bottles to explode and/or turn into hissing snakes that leads to runners jumping off trail in fear.

Art ...
(asandh) - F
Re: setup on 03/04/2012 09:28:05 MST Print View

aside from the water, nutrition, hydration issues,
backup clothing of some sort should probably be considered also.
The north rim is over 8,000 ft and a long ways from the south rim.

Art ...
(asandh) - F
Saturday's Run ... Lost in the Zone on 03/04/2012 09:47:17 MST Print View

three of us, Me, John (coming to RRR), and Gary (not), drove a bit north Saturday morning for a training run on the upcoming Old Goats 50. John and I were totally unfamiliar with the trail but Gary was moderately familiar.
It started out as a simple 22 miler and Gary only got us lost once, which was easily corrected by reversing our steps.
Around mile 15 Gary and I started complaining about our aches but John had a burst of energy, despite just having done a 50 miler last weekend, said he was "in the zone" and took off ahead of us.
Hour and half later we get back to the car, John's car of course, and no John.
Wait an hour, no john.
We tell the story to a passing ranger who says he'll check back periodically.
Three hours later, no John, and the Ranger brigade drives up, prepared to start thinking about search and rescue, its not dark yet but will be soon.
They're about half hour from calling out the troops when a group of three hikers I had asked to be on the lookout for John, drags him out of the woods into the trailhead. He is ok, but extremely parched.
The "zone" had apparently caused him to zone out, and he took two wrong turns, ran around in circles, ran out of water, and could barely speak when the hikers came across him. John probably did at least an extra 8 beyond our 22.
The rangers were happy, we were happy,
John was thankful, lesson learned .. when you're in the zone .. don't zone out.
Of course we'll try not to let this happen at the RRR.

p.s.
these were the nicest, most cooperative forest rangers I've ever dealt with, very impressed with how they handled things.

Edited by asandh on 03/04/2012 10:10:56 MST.

Mike M
(mtwarden) - MLife

Locale: Montana
Re: Re: setup on 03/04/2012 09:49:15 MST Print View

call me a boy scout :) but I'm carrying a small AMK bivy, a AMK heatsheet, little spectra line and a few redundant ways to start a fire- one insulating vest either a R2 or a nanopuff, windshirt, beanie & gloves and a small first aid kit

Craig W.
(xnomanx) - F - M
Setup on 03/04/2012 10:10:35 MST Print View

Getting my setup dialed in too.

Looks like I'll be carrying:

(In addition to worn clothing- running shorts, injinji socks, synthetic T, hat, sunglasses, watch, MT110)

-Gregory Reactor Pack
-3 24 oz. bottles (two with handheld straps)
-Pat. Houdini
-Pat. Cap 1 long sleeve
-Beanie
-gloves
-Can't decide if I want to carry windpants or not (Montbell Dynamo, 4 ounces)
-Space blanket (3oz.)
-first aid/emergency kit (2 ounces, including firestarting)
-a few chlorine dioxide tablets or a small premixed dropper bottle just in case
-Headlamp (zipka)

-Food: I've settled on carrying Balance bars (6-8), Pertpetuem (4-6 bottles worth), maybe 6-8 gels, and maybe 6 ounces of chips (3x2 ounce packets).

Edited by xnomanx on 03/04/2012 10:11:56 MST.

Adan Lopez
(Lopez) - F

Locale: San Gabriel Valley
Zoning in/out on 03/04/2012 11:42:25 MST Print View

Art,
Amazing story. Glad your friend is okay. After that adventure with Craig a few weeks ago ive thought about how easy it is to miss turns when running or when its dark. I'll also be carrying real basic stuff needed to stay out there if necessary but to avoid this im thinking a good study of the trail maps/photos is a good idea. I hear its hard to get lost there but in the dark or on the run changes this a bit. Id be interested in any tips from yall on this point. Mostly because i would like to avoid wasting a bunch of time figuring out which trail to turn on, etc.

Mike M
(mtwarden) - MLife

Locale: Montana
calf strain :( on 03/04/2012 12:28:39 MST Print View

my week started out pretty good, skipped my Thurs run as the wind was especially brutal- set out on my Sat run which was going to be my longest run of 14 miles- almost immediately my right calf started out feeling tight, tried stretching it a couple of times, along w/ walking up the steeper stuff- I thought for sure it would work it's way out- it didn't :( after 10 miles (my stamina felt great and sure I would have made the 14 miles) I bagged it.

it's definitely strained, hard to put weight on it- have been icing it, wrapping it and gently walking stairs- hoping by mid week I can run again, time will tell

Art- glad your friend made it out, that must have been a little scary

Mike

Dan Hewins
(hewinsd) - F

Locale: Chihuahuan Desert
getting lost and calf strain on 03/04/2012 17:50:33 MST Print View

That's quite a story glad to hear that it turned out alright. On a few of our runs Eugene and I have talked about possible pace groups and trying to stay together to some degree. I for one am not above falling back a bit to stick with a group rather than take off up ahead. Hopefully it'll shake out that we'll be able to stick together in a few groups during the day.

Mike, that's a real bummer - rest, ice, compression (I swear by this), elevation may help. I have acquired various compression sleeves and such over my running years, but an ace bandage overnight does the same and has helped me with calf/thigh strains in the past. Good luck!

Mike M
(mtwarden) - MLife

Locale: Montana
Re: getting lost and calf strain on 03/04/2012 18:37:00 MST Print View

Dan- thanks for the tips, I'll try them all :)

definitely a bummer, we're looking at 50's & even a day at 60 this week!

Mike

Dan Hewins
(hewinsd) - F

Locale: Chihuahuan Desert
compression on 03/05/2012 12:08:45 MST Print View

Mike - sounds good. I typically would wrap the offending area with only gentile pressure overnight. There's nothing like waking up in the middle of the night and having your lower leg feeling of pins and needles. This is not what you want. I have had good results in a few nights of this along with stretching in the morning usually after a warm shower.

You may also like the idea of wearing compression calf-sleeves/socks while running/recovering they tend to fend off muscle fatigue on long days - I tend to wear them after long runs for a while because they just feel supportive and good. They've taken the place of most of my ace bandages. Speaking of which, I may stow a pair of calf sleeves in my pack for the hikes during the R2R2R.

Mike M
(mtwarden) - MLife

Locale: Montana
Re: compression on 03/05/2012 13:08:56 MST Print View

Dan- wrapped it last night (from ankle up- as suggested on the web) not very tight and have to admit it feels better today :) Not good enough to go run, but definitely better. I'll continue to ice it today, along w/ compressing it occasionally and hit a few advil as well.

My hope is I can do some kind of decent walk tomorrow (or Wed depending on how it feels) and then maybe (fingers crossed) a run on Thurs- we're having unseasonably warm weather and would love to take advantage of it

I'll look into the compression sleeves, might be just what the doctor ordered.

In other news, received my handhelds today- yeah not impressed w/ the bottles- almost looks like a baby bottle nipple on them????? I'm pretty sure my Osprey bottles will fit.

Mike

Art ...
(asandh) - F
Re: Re: compression on 03/05/2012 13:20:30 MST Print View

Mike
do you make sure and have some good warmup time before you really start pushing?
I seem to take a good half hour to warm up these days, before I'm able to give it a hard push.

Dan Hewins
(hewinsd) - F

Locale: Chihuahuan Desert
Re: Re: compression on 03/05/2012 13:51:23 MST Print View

If you do opt for sleeves I recommend Zensah brand - I find them comfortable and they seem to keep their stretch for several years.I wash mine after ever 5 or so (when they seem a little stretched out) uses and they go right back to feeling like new. I feel obligated to mention I have no affiliation with Zensah.

I also agree in taking things easy as you heal up - a small injury can be the difference between even a Rim-to-wherever let alone the double crossing. I am no M.D., but I know first hand can take several weeks to heal this type of injury You may try getting on a (stationary) bike or swimming/pool running in the mean time. A few hours on a bike is a whole lot better than a few added weeks of recovery.

Mike M
(mtwarden) - MLife

Locale: Montana
Re: Re: Re: compression on 03/05/2012 17:43:41 MST Print View

Art- I probably need to warm up more than I do, though I should state that I really don't push it- kind of slow, but steady

Dan- I'll check that brand out- thanks

I lifted today, but nothing w/ my legs- feel better walking around than I did yesterday; I'll probably try a walk tomorrow if the calf feels up to it, bike is a good idea too- definitely don't want to exasperate it in any way

Mike

Eugene Smith
(Eugeneius) - MLife

Locale: Nuevo Mexico
"2012 R2R2R Group - Training Log's" on 03/05/2012 21:26:59 MST Print View

@ Art,

I'm also glad to hear your compadre made it out of a pretty hairy situation. I don't make a very good effort to inform at least one person (my wife!) of my plans when going out for a run, even the short nearby runs, this is something that I need to change.

@Mike,

Hang in there brother!

@Craig,

My water toting setup will echo yours, but I will likely pack a fourth empty bottle for flexibility or for that "Oh sh#t!" moment that may come when I could use the extra water in-between watering stretches.

x4- 24oz. bottles (x1- 24oz. bottle HEED, x3- 24oz. water)

I don't have one yet, but a 1-2L MSR dromedary style container w/ wide mouthed screw top might replace two of my bottles, that way I can just refill my two handhelds as needed from that larger vessel and cut down on duplicate items (bottles). This would slip in the bladder holder on the inside of my pack (Ultimate Direction Wasp).

As far as the rest of the gear related stuff, haven't really put much thought into it, kind of figure I'll adjust as the weather window gets nearer and we know what conditions will be on the day.

More or less:

using my old UD Wasp pack.
shorts
t shirt
arm sleeves
wind shell
light gloves
beanie+billed cap
sunglasses
calf length socks
small camera
very small FAK (foot care, basics)
wingsuit

Mike M
(mtwarden) - MLife

Locale: Montana
Re: "2012 R2R2R Group - Training Log's" on 03/06/2012 07:15:56 MST Print View

wingsuit- noice!

Art ...
(asandh) - F
Re: Setup on 03/06/2012 08:43:37 MST Print View

my tentative gear list, to be filled in more completely as the RRR approaches.

Base Running Clothes
running hat & sunglasses
longsleeve lightweight poly shirt (I always wear longsleeve for sun protection)
Patagonia Cap2 pants (shortened slightly, these serve as my running tights)
lightweight shorts, over Cap2 pants
injinji toe socks
favorite running shoes to be determined
2 handhelds, 21 oz each

Extra Clothing (mostly in pack)
183g - North Face Triumph rain/wind shell - definitely no matter what
159g - lightweight rain/wind pants - maybe, weather dependent
274g - Patagonia Nano Puff - definitely no matter what
159g - Marmot Midweight longsleeve under shirt - maybe, weather dependent
32g - lightweight polypro balaclava - definitely no matter what
30g - lightweight gloves - definitely no matter what
(max clothing in pack = 1.84 lb , min clothing in pack = 1.14 lb)

Pack (its between these two, depending on what all I bring)
241g - Nathan HPL 20 (modified) - 5L capacity
300g - Black Diamond Bbee (modified) - 12L capacity

Misl
74g - Petzl Tika Plus headlamp
120g - misl, minor first aid, etc.
30g - third water bottle, 24 oz empty in pack

Food
to be determined

Edited by asandh on 03/06/2012 09:16:18 MST.

Eugene Smith
(Eugeneius) - MLife

Locale: Nuevo Mexico
Nathan #20 on 03/06/2012 11:43:53 MST Print View

Art,

What do you think of the Nathan #20? What modifications did you make to it and how did it improve functionality? Will it fit all your consumables, and your small gear list? I like everything about that pack except the lack of a stretch pocket outside.

I have the UD Wasp pack, which is a great pack but a little "heavy" (17oz.) relative to the Nathan packs which seem to be about 1/2 the weight of comparable Ultimate Direction packs. I haven't taken a knife to it yet but I think I can shave a few ounces of unecessary straps and bring it down closer to 10-12oz and maintain complete functionality. Less is more.

Art ...
(asandh) - F
Re: Nathan #20 on 03/06/2012 12:22:10 MST Print View

Eugene : no major modifications, mostly just removing stuff. I don't use bladders so cut out all the bladder related stuff. then cut out some of the inner double layer because it didn't seem that I needed an insulation layer for the whole pack (be careful not to weaken the pack). and shortened straps a bit.
Reduced the weight from (without bladder) 279g to 241g, about 1.5 oz reduction, after all this is BPL.

I like the HPL 20, but ...
1. it covers a lot of surface area of the body so can be a bit warm. I only use mine on cool/cold runs and night time sections of 100's.
2. it does not hold very much even with bladder removed. just about big enough for a 100m with aid stations. its probably borderline big enough for the RRR depending on what I end up bringing. it will hold my gear list, but not much room left for a third water bottle.

I don't like outside stretch pockets, so lack of one is not an issue for me. they are convenient, but elastic is heavy, and I would always worry about something falling out. I tend to cut them off.

p.s.
the ideal RRR pack based on what I like in a pack would probably be the ...
Ultraspire Omega
won't get one before RRR but may buy one for some summer adventures.
if its good enough for Krissy it must be great.

Edited by asandh on 03/06/2012 15:40:50 MST.

Craig W.
(xnomanx) - F - M
Nathan #20 on 03/06/2012 19:40:44 MST Print View

I'll sound off on the Nathan 20 too.
I think it carries great but the capacity is limited for adventure running. If I expect it to carry two 24 oz. bottles, there's barely enough room left in the back for my windshell and a little food. No room left for microspikes or other stuff, so they end up jingling on the outside. I've found that the chest pockets aren't too useful to me; I don't care for the feeling of having them stuffed with food.

My Gregory Reactor is now my favorite; I could probably put a small overnight kit in it and be OK, yet it's still small enough to run well- pretty light too. Given I now run with bottles, it's far more useful than the Nathan because of the side bottle pockets. Big mesh on the outside, two zippered pockets, plenty of internal organization, hip pockets for bars/gels. It's nice having more capacity- no worries about careful packing and stuffing.

1

ERIC PAYNE
(vaporjourney)

Locale: Greater Gila
re: R2R2R gear on 03/07/2012 05:59:18 MST Print View

For people who want a handheld bottle setup, ultralight, and without a pocket, look no further than an old bicycle tube. You can cut 2 holes into the perfect length of tube, stretch one hole over the bottom, one over the top, and you've got a functional, and hyperlight handheld system. NO annoying strap to flop around and adjust, and again...functional! I've stopped using bottle pockets, instead putting a stash of salt caps in my pocket, and using gel flasks in MYOG gel pockets at the waist of my shorts.

I'm hoping to write a more detailed training log of R2R2R prep in the coming days...

Craig W.
(xnomanx) - F - M
Coyote bait. on 03/08/2012 22:28:23 MST Print View

My dog.

Second time in the last three night runs together that we've been chased by coyotes on the trail.

Two of my standard nighttime trail runs pass through the same wash/drainage system. One is a 5.25 out and back, the other is a longer loop of 10 miles.

I run with my dog on a six foot leash, looped through a belt so I'm hands-free.

First time I heard a rustle in the bushes and shrugged it off. Moments later I sense something behind us and a coyote was only 10 feet away and closing on her. She was oblivious. I charged it, yelled, and it lurched off. That's when another came from the other side of us, staying about 20 feet away. I threw a rock at it, scared it off, started running again. Within 25 yards they were trailing us again. More rock throwing, more yelling. This happened three times before they left us alone.

Similar thing tonight, only I had a headlamp so I could see all the eyes reflecting in the bushes. One came out of the bushes on our right. I threw a rock, scared it off. A second was ahead of us. I threw a rock at that one when I realized there was a third behind us. We were literally being encircled.

Friggin' ridiculous, right out of a zombie movie or something. I'm standing in the dark, holding my dog, throwing rocks and yelling at the eyes circling in the dark.

I got off the trail and onto roads as soon as I could.

To top it off, at about mile 11 and only 1/2 mile from home two pit bulls are unleashed and trotting down the street a block ahead. I added at least a mile to get home in order to avoid them and go around the block they were on.

My nerves are shot. Not sure pup is doing anymore nighttime trail running with me. They're on to us.

Mike M
(mtwarden) - MLife

Locale: Montana
Re: Coyote bait. on 03/09/2012 07:23:27 MST Print View

wow- bold son of a guns! .22 revolver loaded w/ bird shot would solve any coyote or pit bull problems :)

Art ...
(asandh) - F
Re: Coyote bait. on 03/09/2012 09:06:31 MST Print View

pretty bold varmits Craig.

I used to run with pepper spray, maybe time to start carrying again.
Do any of you animal experts know if pepper spray would work on mountain lions ?

Eugene Smith
(Eugeneius) - MLife

Locale: Nuevo Mexico
Coyotes on 03/09/2012 11:12:47 MST Print View

That is sketchy Craig, glad you made it home with your sidekick.

Craig W.
(xnomanx) - F - M
Re: Re: Coyote bait. on 03/09/2012 11:16:18 MST Print View

They're getting incredibly bold with us.

I've thought about going back out with some bear spray. Perhaps an experience that would mark the last time they bother a person?

It's tough because running at night is when my schedule allows and I try to avoid running road. I'd feel bad no longer taking my dog with me, but it's getting worrisome.

Hiking Malto
(gg-man) - F
Borrow a Dog? on 03/09/2012 12:16:29 MST Print View

I can lend you one of my poochies for a couple of runs. They are bred to protect livestock from dangers such as Coyotes. I sometimes tease them by playing coyote howls on my computer, it's a bit mean. Rumor has it that they can snap a coyotes spine with one bite.

puppies

Glad to hear you came out unscathed.

Travis Leanna
(T.L.) - MLife

Locale: Wisconsin
Re: Re: Re: Coyote bait. on 03/09/2012 12:30:12 MST Print View

Craig,
I'm usually not a proponent of guns, but maybe a .22 pistol would be an option. I say that because you only get a very limited amount of bear spray in a can, and I wonder if that would be enough for several coyotes.

If you still want to run your routes, and the coyotes are on to you, they'll possibly get more and more aggressive.

Like I said, I'm the last person that wants to turn this into another flame war, but considering the circumstances, I'd personally bring a small pistol. And that's the last I'll post about guns here. Period.

Mike M
(mtwarden) - MLife

Locale: Montana
Lions and bear spray on 03/09/2012 12:57:45 MST Print View

Art- our lion biologist got to test exactly that out when they were trying to tag some kittens and mama came back and made a couple of runs at his hounds- it appears it works pretty well, I think there are other incidents on record as well

S&W model 317, 10.8 oz and small, holds 8 .22 LR rounds, load them w/ bird shot rounds- very (very) unlikely to kill a coyote (or pit bull), but would be an effective deterrent imo

Mike

Craig W.
(xnomanx) - F - M
Guns vs. Coyotes on 03/09/2012 16:54:34 MST Print View

Guys....

I'm in Southern California.

We don't shoot at coyotes or unleashed dogs while jogging.

Not trying to get my first felony conviction over shooting a coyote or someone's dog. I'm saving it for something good.

:)

Bob Bankhead
(wandering_bob) - MLife

Locale: Oregon, USA
Guns vs. Coyotes on 03/09/2012 17:07:11 MST Print View

Very simple:

Shoot
Shovel (or skeedadle)
Shut up





.

Edited by wandering_bob on 03/09/2012 17:08:44 MST.

Travis Leanna
(T.L.) - MLife

Locale: Wisconsin
Re: Guns vs. Coyotes on 03/09/2012 17:09:55 MST Print View

Dang, there's open season on coyotes in WI. Literally. You can simply shoot them any place, any time, year-round. Many Wisconsinites think that should be the same law for FIBs. (I kid, I kid!) You can PM me if you don't know what a FIB is.

Edited by T.L. on 03/09/2012 17:23:42 MST.

David Adair
(DavidAdair) - M

Locale: West Dakota
Coyotes vs Rambo on 03/09/2012 17:36:24 MST Print View

Borrow a paint ball gun. Tape yer Zebra light on one side... and a video camera on the other.
Now that's entertainment.

Mike M
(mtwarden) - MLife

Locale: Montana
Re: Coyotes vs Rambo on 03/09/2012 18:00:27 MST Print View

^ Oh I like that idea :)

Eugene Smith
(Eugeneius) - MLife

Locale: Nuevo Mexico
"2012 R2R2R Group - Training Log's" on 03/09/2012 19:13:27 MST Print View

The idea of running and guns doesn't jive well with me.

I say wash your shorts Craig, the coyotes are just smelling that bacon scent you're leaving behind.

Eugene Smith
(Eugeneius) - MLife

Locale: Nuevo Mexico
"2012 R2R2R Group - Training Log's" on 03/09/2012 19:59:16 MST Print View

Soooooooo, we're just shy of 4 weeks folks!

I'm ready to do this, ready or not. ;-)

For those of you who train in the evenings, you're fortunate, daylight savings is just around the corner. I was just getting used to not wearing my headlamp at 6am. Oh well. On a good note, shorts and T-shirt are now standard attire, goodbye tights!

Adan Lopez
(Lopez) - F

Locale: San Gabriel Valley
No bueno on 03/11/2012 09:53:36 MDT Print View

Bad news. Last week I was shooting for a peak mileage of 50 miles, made up of three 10s and a 20. The first two 10s went so well I thought it was going to be easy, really feeling loose and quite stud-like. The third run went bad 4 miles in when my right shin started burning quite suddenly. I immediately stopped, the pain continued as i walked into a store to pick up supplies, sat right there and iced it and wrapped it. The pain was gone for my walk home. So early this week, a couple 1 mile test jogs revealed the pain was still there but much improved. daily calf stretching, icing, and compression seemed to be doing the trick. I finally got in a 7 mile trail run Friday night and no pain after almost a full week of only cross training.

So when Wisner called about the weekend, I was confident and anxious to break out of this funk. As always he was totally willing to let me warm up, walk and stretch for over an hour, before running. Bam! Knee pain almost immediately! What? I felt this once before on our Baldy peaks run a few weeks ago. Again, I continued running only long enough to confirm it was not a momentary issue, which happen often with me. No bueno, knee pain continues, we turn back and walk 5 miles to the car. A couple beers back at his pad cheered me up a bit.

So now I'm in ITB rehab mode. Foam roller, ice, compression, stretching, lots of beer and bad words. Finding out I need to run to be happy these days. I had high hopes of running the canyon like an impala, now Im thinking more of slow hobble type, maybe like a skunk? Are there skunks in the canyon? to be continued....

Ken Thompson
(kthompson) - MLife

Locale: Behind the Redwood Curtain
Re: No bueno on 03/11/2012 09:57:23 MDT Print View

Somebody say bacon!?!

Enjoy the time change and have fun. That's the whole point after all.

Don't kill yourselves, you're not getting any younger.

Art ...
(asandh) - F
Re: No bueno on 03/11/2012 10:23:53 MDT Print View

Adan
sorry to hear of your trobules, hope you heal up.

Major rule #1 for Adan and everyone else :
More important to be healthy and healed than to be in shape.

Don't overdo it.
this RRR is a really big stretch for many involved.
just realize it takes time (as in years) to get your body in good ultra shape.
train ... yes, but be careful not to overdo it.

p.s.
joint and connective tissue supplements really do help (in my opinion).

Edited by asandh on 03/11/2012 10:30:04 MDT.

Craig W.
(xnomanx) - F - M
No bueno on 03/11/2012 10:29:30 MDT Print View

We'll get you through this homie, one way or another.

______________________________________________________________________________________

"Don't kill yourselves, you're not getting any younger."

It actually the opposite. I've got to do more of this sort of thing precisely because I'm not getting any younger. I'm 35, but stronger, faster, and smarter (I think) than I was at 25. I intend to keep this reverse aging thing going as long as I can.

Besides, the countdown is on; I might have only 40 more Aprils in my life. Running the Grand Canyon R2R2R with a bunch of new friends will certainly make April #40 more memorable. 39 to go....

And if I blow my legs to hell running ultras over the next few years then it'll just be time to start surfing more seriously or start scuba diving or long distance ocean kayaking.

Art ...
(asandh) - F
Re: No bueno on 03/11/2012 10:32:55 MDT Print View

... and there's always wheel chair basketball :-)

Hiking Malto
(gg-man) - F
There's hope on 03/11/2012 10:51:09 MDT Print View

Adan,
Sorry to hear of the injury. You never know, you may be as good as new in a week or so and the rest may be good for you. And as far as crawl speed on the trip, I suspect many of us will be crawling by the end. Good luck on the healing. One more thing.... When I hit the Mojave on my PCT trip my thigh was absolutely killing me. Even with drugs I could barely hobble into into Hikertown. I couldn't imaging that I would be hiking anytime soon, let alone 30 mile days. Surprisingly though it was much better the next day and within 2 days I back to normal. I will be the optimist for you!

Adan Lopez
(Lopez) - F

Locale: San Gabriel Valley
Optimism on 03/11/2012 15:23:56 MDT Print View

Art, youre totally right. i think im being pretty conservative so far, small mileage increase per week, not running through any pain, etc.

Greg, thanks for the support. dont worry, im not out of the game, i just write like that to be a joker sometimes. By the way, your experiences don't apply to us mortals man, you're an animal.

The tentative plan at this point is to try warming, stretching and rolling the ITB each day followed by a short slow run of about one mile. Then maybe I'll think about trying to build back up slowly, maybe two mile increments, back to a 20 mile run by apr 10.

Craig, those dang coyotes are as bad as the squirrel that beat me up at Sespe! I'm still traumatized over that.

Edited by Lopez on 03/11/2012 15:26:08 MDT.

Mike M
(mtwarden) - MLife

Locale: Montana
Re: Optimism on 03/11/2012 15:43:39 MDT Print View

Adan- heal quickly my friend, if it's turns out your really slow by mid April you can join the skunk pack- led by me :)

I'm glad to say that it appears I'm back in the game :) early week- lots of icing and compression, mid week I got on the stairmaster and ended doing 45 minutes (@ low levels), went for a two mile walk with the wife, and a three mile walk the following day.

Saturday I was on pins and needles and a little nervous about a run (my game plan was if I felt the least bit of twinge in my calf- I'd walk), did a 5 mile loop at a slow pace (normal for me!), today I ran 10 miles and felt pretty good.

The conditions for running are challenging, we are getting well above normal temps (high 60's!) so there is mud, snow, ice AND heat to deal w/- 60 feels like 80!

Ran w/ the handhelds, will take a little getting used to, but overall not too bad- nice and handy to drink. I also found that if my stride starting getting a little out of whack, the bottles would slosh quite a bit- if I was running smooth, no slosh :)

Getting very excited, time is getting very close.

Mike

Dan Hewins
(hewinsd) - F

Locale: Chihuahuan Desert
goings on on 03/11/2012 17:07:57 MDT Print View

Sounds like there has been a lot of action lately between coyotes, injuries and healing. I'll second the notion that it takes a few years to build a strong base and several of us have been compressing preparations into a few months. Everyone take care and good luck working out any kinks.

Wow only 4 weeks to go!

I am going to be running with:

Salomon XA Advanced Skin S-Lab 12L Set Pack
1.5L bladder Heed - Taking Premeasured HEED servings in baggies for refills
2x 0.5L Platy w/ bite valves (1x H2O - to cleanse the palate, 1x Perpeteum - for the return)
Gu Gels (flavor variety)
Assorted candy/Salty snack foods
S! Caps
Advil
Sun Screen
Bodyglide
Salomon S-Lab Calf Sleeves
Smartwool Arm Sleeves
Pat. Nine Trails wind shell
Small foot care/first aid kit
Black Diamond Sprinter headlamp
Sugoi lite gloves
Space blanket

Clothes/Shoes:
Pat. Cap. 2 T-shirt
Salomon EXO S-lab Shorts
Buff - for around my head/neck - doubles as a bandage
Salomon XA Cap
Drymax Trail Lite socks
Saucony Progrid Peregrine

Unless Eugene comes through with his end a dare and buys a pair of "banana pants" that I'd then have to wear...

Edited by hewinsd on 03/11/2012 22:56:31 MDT.

Eugene Smith
(Eugeneius) - MLife

Locale: Nuevo Mexico
"2012 R2R2R Group - Training Log's" on 03/11/2012 22:36:19 MDT Print View

Really sorry to hear Adan. I can definitely feel your pain having gone through that mess before, ITBS is a bastitch, not running because of it is even worse. Keep your head up.

If you need any help or have questions about dealing with ITBS shoot me a PM. I had a nasty bout myself two years ago and found a few things that helped with the healing process.

Art ...
(asandh) - F
2012 R2R2R on 03/12/2012 09:37:59 MDT Print View

If you ever feel like whining ... Read This.

Geoff Roes Iditarod 2012

Edited by asandh on 03/12/2012 12:29:23 MDT.

Eugene Smith
(Eugeneius) - MLife

Locale: Nuevo Mexico
"2012 R2R2R Group - Training Log's" on 03/12/2012 12:16:30 MDT Print View

@dan,

There will be no banana pants happening man.

@Art,

That's an incredible feat, Roes is diehard. I can't imagine what it takes to push through and endure something of that nature/scale. Pain and suffering is relative, ill do my best not to whine or snivel in April, in the event I do I will pack a handkerchief or tissues.

On a different note, temps are supposed to near 80F this week, maybe a little heat running before April.

Art ...
(asandh) - F
Re: "2012 R2R2R Group - Training Log's" on 03/12/2012 12:26:00 MDT Print View

will the banana pants make us faster ?

second and final long run on the Old Goats 50 course last Saturday (22 mi.)
close to 7,000' of gain and my legs are slightly toast.
need to run the Old Goats gauntlet in two weeks before I can think seriuosly about the RRR. but its not a goal race, just a training race, so as long as I don't DFL, I'll be satisfied just finishing.

Edited by asandh on 03/12/2012 12:27:20 MDT.

Eugene Smith
(Eugeneius) - MLife

Locale: Nuevo Mexico
"2012 R2R2R Group - Training Log's" on 03/12/2012 13:07:43 MDT Print View

I think the banana pants will only make you look faster.

Good luck out there Art, may your trails be rogue coyote and cougar free.

Hiking Malto
(gg-man) - F
Re: 2012 R2R2R on 03/12/2012 13:12:12 MDT Print View

"If you ever feel like whining ... Read This.

Geoff Roes Iditarod 2012"

The beautiful thing about the internet...... Just when you think you are crazy, you can read about someone even crazier and it makes you feel normal.

Dan Hewins
(hewinsd) - F

Locale: Chihuahuan Desert
IT band work on 03/13/2012 21:31:54 MDT Print View

@Adan

I was listening to this week's Ask the Ultrarunner and at 50mins in they discuss ITS and some conventional remedies.

Adan Lopez
(Lopez) - F

Locale: San Gabriel Valley
ITB on 03/14/2012 00:19:07 MDT Print View

Awesome, thanks Dan!

Mike M
(mtwarden) - MLife

Locale: Montana
Food on 03/14/2012 20:00:11 MDT Print View

Think I've got my food figured out :)

bringing 6 2 scoop packs of Perpetuem 11.4 oz; 1620 calories
Clif blocks x6 13.8 oz; 1200 calories
Clif gels x3 3.3 oz; 330 calories
Clif bars x3 7.2 oz; 750 calories
peanut butter & jelly sandwich 5.0 oz, 500 calories

40.7 oz (glad that weight goes away!); 4400 calories- that should sustain my svelte 190 lbs :)

in other news my leg sleeves came and they do feel good on, not 100% sure they are helping, but then again my calves are still doing good

exactly one month out gents!!!! :)

Art ...
(asandh) - F
Re: Food on 03/15/2012 07:55:01 MDT Print View

looks like a solid nutrition plan Mike.

Dan Hewins
(hewinsd) - F

Locale: Chihuahuan Desert
Re: Food on 03/15/2012 08:17:55 MDT Print View

Looks good, Mike. One suggestion is to make sure your stomach is happy with the Perpetuem (if it's not new to you then disregard the following bit) - it's a pretty complex drink and some people can't process it. It may be a good idea to start with water and heed and then go to Perpetuem, but it varies. I'd also pack a few extra gels 5+ they're life savers - I often just let the gel sit in my mouth and dissolve on a long climb.

Less than a month now..!

Eugene Smith
(Eugeneius) - MLife

Locale: Nuevo Mexico
"2012 R2R2R Group - Training Log's" on 03/15/2012 13:23:50 MDT Print View

....the final countdown.

Mike M
(mtwarden) - MLife

Locale: Montana
perpetuem on 03/15/2012 20:27:32 MDT Print View

Eugene- nice choice :)

Dan- I've been using it on my longer runs, knock on wood- no problems w/ it thus far; probably good advice to throw in a few more gels- they do give good bang for the buck, can't say that I'm overly fond of them though- could probably say the say for Perpetuem for that matter- I know the P&J is going to taste good though :)

MIke

Adan Lopez
(Lopez) - F

Locale: San Gabriel Valley
ITBS on 03/16/2012 09:39:10 MDT Print View

@Eugene, sent you a PM last week, let me know if have any tips for me.

Art ...
(asandh) - F
Re: perpetuem on 03/16/2012 09:47:32 MDT Print View

Mike - I find perpetuem much more soothing on my stomach than gels over many hours of use. Taste is a personal issue, I've grown to really like it.

Craig W.
(xnomanx) - F - M
"2012 R2R2R Group - Training Log's" on 03/16/2012 22:38:22 MDT Print View

Looks like I'm going to have some trouble getting a long run in this weekend, but I've got plenty of other ridiculousness planned...Riding the Wolfpack Marathon Crash Race race on Saturday night (actually Sunday morning). I'll be rolling to the start at 2AM, mass ride to the starting line starts at 3AM, race at 4AM. Should probably be running the marathon, but this is way more fun.

http://wolfpackhustle.com/marathon-crash-race/

A cool video:
http://wolfpackhustle.com/videos/
Click the upper left video for the 2011 crash race.

Best part- looks like it'll be pouring rain.


__________________________________________________


I'll be making up for the lost long run next weekend by biking then running across Joshua Tree (almost 40 miles each way).

Adan Lopez
(Lopez) - F

Locale: San Gabriel Valley
Wolf pack hustle on 03/16/2012 23:24:25 MDT Print View

Atta boy Craig! Get some!

Always wanted to get on one them hustle rides, maybe next time, I had too much going on this time. And in the rain! Sick man. Be safe.

Eugene Smith
(Eugeneius) - MLife

Locale: Nuevo Mexico
Wolfpack Hustle on 03/17/2012 00:02:14 MDT Print View

Here's to you coming out unscathed and in one piece Craig!

Look's like one wild ride. I caught that brief cameo of Robbie Miranda in the video from the site, loved that guy when I was a kid.

torrey saylor
(everyday) - F

Locale: south rim
donut-training R2R2R on 03/17/2012 10:19:43 MDT Print View

Well, Im not injured, however, I spent the last 9 days visiting my boyfriend and getting my car repaired in West Covina, so, I have done no trailrunning, and no working out at all! I have spent time walking to Krispy Cream and to Target to get more easter candy. So , im back at it today, but I feel im starting all over with only like 20-something days to go!lol...I also gained like 9lbs when there! ha. ..I can still do under 12hrs though, as there's no KrispyCreams out here! ;) -see ya guys soon! Stop gettin injured!

Rob Vandiver
(ShortBus) - M

Locale: So Cal
Wolfpack Hustle on 03/17/2012 13:01:32 MDT Print View

Ha, that's sweet. All sorts of cool stuff going on I have no idea about.

Craig, Im kinda surprised you arent doing both it AND the marathon tho. Just sayin.

Craig W.
(xnomanx) - F - M
Wolfpack Hustle on 03/17/2012 15:55:17 MDT Print View

Believe me, it crossed my mind. Actually, I'm a little bummed I didn't plan better for it. But at $165 to enter, it's not going to happen right now.

Running the LA Marathon in 2009 cost me $90. It's getting close to double that in only 3 years...Ouch. Unless I were going for an official time or PR or something, I can run 26.2 through the city whenever I want for free...and make the finish line at a restaurant or bar of my choice!

Mike M
(mtwarden) - MLife

Locale: Montana
snow on 03/18/2012 09:14:25 MDT Print View

looks like the Canyon is getting a good dump today and into tomorrow, snow making it as low as 3000'- guessing it's probably short lived

torrey saylor
(everyday) - F

Locale: south rim
GC snow on 03/18/2012 15:25:35 MDT Print View

YES! we have snows! I got to shovel it for 4 hrs strait this morning at work. Which is cool cause shoveling snow at a good pace is a full body workout, sorta feels like my Kettlebell workouts, my legs actually feel more tired than my arms! Anyway- The snow should end tonight and then it'll be sunny n 50 degrees all week..itll melt.

Craig W.
(xnomanx) - F - M
Wolfpack Hustle on 03/18/2012 21:23:59 MDT Print View

Got a writeup of the crash race on my blog:

http://sweepingthegarden.wordpress.com/2012/03/18/wolfpackhustle-marathon-crash-race-2012/

Absolute blast, great training as well. Ended up riding 50 miles by the time the night was over, with almost 30 of it at high intensity.

I forgot how slow running is...

Mike M
(mtwarden) - MLife

Locale: Montana
Re: Wolfpack Hustle on 03/19/2012 08:18:16 MDT Print View

Craig - nice write up! glad you came out unscathed, I can just about guarantee you I would have been the guy fumbling w/ his bottle :)

Adan Lopez
(Lopez) - F

Locale: San Gabriel Valley
Training log on 03/20/2012 00:03:10 MDT Print View

Last week I managed to get an hour of pool running almost every day. Yuck. Also managed about a 20 minute run every day or so without any issues. Every other day I added onto this another 40 minutes of cardio, cycling or whatever. Hoping all of that adds up to some decent stuff, just trying not to lose too much ground while my legs heal up a bit.

This week, I' ll start shifting a little of that time to actual running. Today I sat in the hot tub for 30 minutes and stretched thoroughly, focusing on IT band and calves. Then some slow work on the foam roller and a 40 min run. Worked great, haven't felt that loose in at least a couple weeks. I'll alternate this kind of easy, slow stretching and running with hard cross-training days in between.

Really hoping as I ease back into the 4-8 mile runs next week that I have no issues. Getting a couple 15-18 milers pain-free would be nice before I can think about attempting the canyon. All in all, really glad to have the challenge. Getting really excited. Either way, I'm gonna go for it and let my legs tell me whether I turn back at the river or go balls out.

@mike, super glad to see things coming together for you.
@greg, haven't heard from you, I hope no news is good news.

David Thomas
(DavidinKenai) - MLife

Locale: North Woods. Far North.
Training log on 03/20/2012 16:29:40 MDT Print View

I finally got off the skiis onto solid ground (flew 2,600 miles south to Maui).

45-pound pack, 7 miles, -2,500 feet
40-pound pack, 6 miles, +500/-1000
35-pound pack, 8 miles, -500/+2000

Yes, I'd normally do more miles with less weight, but I was carrying most of the kids' stuff. Started at 10,000 feet, 38F, blowing 50 mph. Ended at 8,000 feet. Wished I could have done it each of the next 4 weeks - then I'd have decent vertical and some nice altitude work prior to R2R2R.

Then we, er, "cross-trained" for 3 days in the surf.

I'm back at 60N, doing stairs at home, stationary bike in the garage and doing laps at Walmart.

And now I'll brag on my kids - ages 7 and 12. Let me repeat: Started at 10,000 feet, 38F, blowing 50 mph, in a cloud, and my wife was ready to bag it. I argued "They're Alaskan kids and we have chocolate along." They did great in 4 days of drizzle. Endangered nene geese, cinder cones, weird plants in the moonscape setting, sandy scree trails, went caving in some nasty little lava tubes - I was proud of them.

David Thomas
(DavidinKenai) - MLife

Locale: North Woods. Far North.
Re: GC snow on 03/20/2012 16:33:50 MDT Print View

>"Which is cool cause shoveling snow at a good pace is a full body workout"

Torrey: I joke that "I could join a gym for $1000 and buy a snowblower for $1000, or do neither." 400' long, 15-25' wide, and we've had about 5 feet total this year. I like the workout, but sometimes it comes at the most inconvenient times!

Hiking Malto
(gg-man) - F
Chicken to Pig and Training on 03/20/2012 18:58:17 MDT Print View

Just like in a Bacon and egg breakfast where the chicken is involved and the pig committed...... I just became a pig. Flights are now booked, training winding down and the excitement is growing. So while we in peak of training I thought this would be a great opportunity for folks to share their biggest ah-ha from their training. I'll start:

I have been quite surprised on how important rest has been in my training. I tend to be very driven so I will push myself a bit too hard at times so it's hard for me to think moderation. But I also know from mt PCT training last year how terrifying it is to have an event treatening injury strike right before show time. So I have really listened to my body, pushed when it felt right and took extra down days when needed. It seems that I need a bit longer to recover as I get older.

What have you learned?

Mike M
(mtwarden) - MLife

Locale: Montana
training on 03/20/2012 19:40:12 MDT Print View

David- sounds like a great trip, bet is was nice to get a little break from the cold :)

Greg- I think what really hit me was the sheer time involved to get into long distance "shape"; I'm no where near where I wanted to be at this juncture and after hearing from the folks who have been at it a awhile- not an overly big surprise. I was thinking weeks and months, when it actually sounds more like years. I did figure out that I really enjoy trail running though, better late then never :)

Mike

Craig W.
(xnomanx) - F - M
R2R2R: What I've learned so far. on 03/20/2012 20:43:22 MDT Print View

-Having a running partner is fun. I've always trained and run solo until Adan came around. Thanks my friend.

-I have learned not to trust Adan with cars keys. You will end up hitch hiking. (Though he can usually be counted on for Fritos)

-I have learned to call a Ranger District for trail conditions/closures before embarking on 30+ mile runs. You will end up hitch hiking.

-After all the years I've run, this is the first season I feel like I'm really starting to get it. Not that I'm very fast or becoming an elite, but I feel like I've got myself pretty well figured out. Stretching, recovery, footwear, food/hydration, etc. I guess you could say I'm beginning to feel like a "seasoned" distance runner. Keep it simple, trust myself. For example: Despite the fact I've been injury-free for a while now, I'll start wondering if I have the "right" shoe and obsessing over new options. But I've learned to leave good enough alone. Same with diet all the talk here about it (no offense meant to anyone). It gets me wondering about Perpetuem and HEED and maltodextrin and etc, etc,...But when I back up and trust myself, I realize my own system has got me through the years just fine.

-None of this would be possible were it not for the support of my wife.

-While this is all supposed to be culminating in the big run, I've started to appreciate the journey more and more, to the point that I'm feeling no pressure. Regardless of what happens, this (and all of you) have motivated me to get out more and do a whole lot of great training runs I've always wanted to do. So it's almost more about the journey. Running the R2R2R is the bonus.

Eugene Smith
(Eugeneius) - MLife

Locale: Nuevo Mexico
What have I learned? on 03/20/2012 23:03:49 MDT Print View

- Striking out for a morning run without purpose will usually result in me discovering some sense of purpose along the way, even if the purpose gained is illusory or transient. I say sense specifically- more often than not I have no clue what the hell I'm searching for in my running, or if in my searching I run. This upcoming R2R2R has given me something to point my arrows at.

- Balance! I'm pretty terrible at it and training for this R2R2R has revealed this character flaw in me. I need to apply similar discipline that I have for my running towards the other vastly more valuable areas of my life (family, faith, purpose, art). I can wake up at 5am off of 5 hrs sleep and go run for 2 hours, but can hardly stay awake spending time in the evening with my wife. I get things ass backwards somedays! My training hasn't been as consistently focused as it could have been, considering the time we've had. Will it be adequate? I hope so, but honestly, I should not be asking myself that question, the fact that I am is evidence that I should have done a better job managing my time and efforts.

- I've learned that my body responds to both rigidity and flexibility in training, both are fruitful, but the latter seems to be producing an overall healthier runner in me even though the obsessive nature in me desires the former. Fatherhood and family life has changed my expectations to some degree, if anything how often I get to run- this is a good thing. I'm not as fast or as lean as I was three years ago, but I am currently without injury and find joy in my running.

- Ritual and repetition. Lacing up shoes and taking first strides out onto the trail feels so right, right enough to repeat the cycle over and over again. Burnout has been evaded.

- People can connect under the most bizarre of circumstances, our upcoming gathering is proof of this.

Art ...
(asandh) - F
Re: What have I learned? on 03/21/2012 07:06:37 MDT Print View

- warmup, warmup, warmup : my first long run of the year, way back on a cold mid January morning, running with friends, psyched to get the season started, took off too quickly after a holiday filled with everything but running, yup, strained a hamstring and its been an issue ever since. won't be an issue regarding finishing, but it impacts what little speed I have.

- ditto something Craig said : it is more fun to do the long runs with company. all of them this year have been with friends, which is a change from previous years where most long runs were solo, simply because the logistics were simpler.

- ditto something Eugene said : an unlikely gathering, from a broad spectrum in one sense, yet sharing a kindred spirit in another.

- yes, its the journey, but ... : at one level the R2R2R is just a training run, on the journey to other things, but on another level its a special point along that journey.

Art ...
(asandh) - F
a couple RRR trail scouting videos on 03/21/2012 09:17:38 MDT Print View

a couple R2R2R motivational/trail scouting videos for those who haven't already watched everything utube has to offer :

RRR video 1

RRR video 2

Edited by asandh on 03/21/2012 12:32:18 MDT.

David Thomas
(DavidinKenai) - MLife

Locale: North Woods. Far North.
Re: What have I learned? on 03/21/2012 10:01:08 MDT Print View

"People can connect under the most bizarre of circumstances"

Or "Circumstances can connect the most bizarre people."?

I learned/relearned:

Success breeds success - and the exercise gets easier the more routine it becomes.

These northern winters can throw me for a loop. R2R2R has been a helpful motivator to kick off my exercise and outdoors time earlier than I would have otherwise. Thanks to Eugene and the other instigators for that!

Even half an hour of workout makes the rest of my day go better.

When I'm most behind on paperwork is when I most need to just take a break, break a sweat, not sweat the details for an hour, and then get back to work (and be much less distracted and much more productive for it).

If I really want to drop weight, I've got to log what I eat (and hence eat less). There's an App for that. I use LoseIt on my iPhone and (1) entering in every calorie really makes me conscious of where the calories come from and (2) makes the food / exercise balance like a video game - finish at or under my goal each day and I DO lose weight quite predictably.

Adan Lopez
(Lopez) - F

Locale: San Gabriel Valley
What I've learned on 03/21/2012 18:21:11 MDT Print View

Okay my turn on the cheesy-go-round...

I've learned more than I wanted to know about running injuries.

I've learned to let Wisner handle the car keys, because nobody has to hitchhike if I forget the Fritos. Besides, car keys get you home but Fritos get you friends!

I've learned I have a gut, an instinct. It talks to me quietly and constantly, and it's very wise, wiser than knowledge. This instinct is heard clearest in the mountains.

I've learned that running is powerful juju. It changes everything, the way you live, the way you see yourself. Running makes me a better version of myself. It's like the normal, clumsy, forgetful me, only with a cape! Dashing through the mountains like a superhero, with nobody to save but myself.

Hiking Malto
(gg-man) - F
Hamstring on 03/21/2012 19:17:02 MDT Print View

"- warmup, warmup, warmup : my first long run of the year, way back on a cold mid January morning, running with friends, psyched to get the season started, took off too quickly after a holiday filled with everything but running, yup, strained a hamstring and its been an issue ever since. won't be an issue regarding finishing, but it impacts what little speed I have."

Let me guess, you immediately ran up a hill? If so we are twins.

Eugene Smith
(Eugeneius) - MLife

Locale: Nuevo Mexico
"2012 R2R2R Group - Training Log's" on 03/23/2012 01:34:48 MDT Print View

I check in on this guy's blog everyone once and a while, his consistent running below the Rim makes me jealous. Next week he sets out for a FKT on the Tonto Trail.

http://jasonhenrie.blogspot.com/2012/03/tonto-traverse-fkt-attempt-next-week.html

torrey saylor
(everyday) - F

Locale: south rim
r2r2r on 03/23/2012 08:15:44 MDT Print View

Cool! Thanx for posting that!! I found him on facebook! Maybe ill have now someone to run the canyon with more often. I go down there once or twice a month, but always hafta go alone cause i dont know any trailrunners out here :(

Craig W.
(xnomanx) - F - M
NM on 03/23/2012 08:49:38 MDT Print View

NM, video link is gone.

Edited by xnomanx on 03/23/2012 17:57:32 MDT.

Craig W.
(xnomanx) - F - M
Kooks and Mountain Lions and Heroics on 03/23/2012 09:04:29 MDT Print View

I'm going for a run up one of my favorite canyons yesterday, 11.5 miles of boulder hopping, log jumping, and stream crossings in the fading evening light.

As I'm rounding a bend, a man in street clothes is bolting down the canyon, a wild look in his eyes, covered in sweat. He's yelling something at me from 50 yards out.

"Mountain lion!".

"What?"

"There's a mountain lion right around the corner up there!"

"Really?"

"I think it's feeding on something. That's why I'm running."

The guy looks a little off to me. Though, he is sweating profusely and he genuinely panicked.

"So where is it?"

"On the left, right around the next bend. I wouldn't go if I were you!"

"OK, thanks."

I go investigate.

No mountain lions. I continue my run. Another runner catches me a mile later.

"Did you run into the guy raving about the mountain lion?" I ask.

"I wouldn't have this rock in my hand if I didn't."

I see him turn back in another mile. I continue for 4 more miles, returning home through the canyon in the dark. I wonder about being eaten by a lion. I'd go for the thumb gouge into its eyes...if I could. Maybe I'd be a hero, covered in bite marks, dragging its corpse out in the night as evidence. The media would be contact me. MAN KILLS MOUNTAIN LION WITH BARE HANDS.

Or maybe I'd be disemboweled by a giant cat beside the stream. That's more likely. At least I'd be going out like a warrior. Or prey. But I suppose it would make for a more interesting obituary than choking to death on a Frito or dying of a stroke in Denny's at age 73.

Art ...
(asandh) - F
Re: Kooks and Mountain Lions and Heroics on 03/23/2012 09:36:30 MDT Print View

I like your attitude Craig.

Adan Lopez
(Lopez) - F

Locale: San Gabriel Valley
Thumb gouge on 03/23/2012 10:44:01 MDT Print View

Craig, dude. Cats smash their massive weight onto the back, instantly slamming prey into the ground while they crush the spine from behind. All the while, they are gouging the throat and chest with like 16 of their own knife-sharp "thumbs". It's not uncommon for prey to strike vicously at their face with hooves and antlers in attempt to escape.

But dont get me wrong, your thumb gouging idea is a good one! That'll get 'em for sure! Oh, and enjoy those night trail runs out there...all alone..in the darkness.

Mike M
(mtwarden) - MLife

Locale: Montana
lions, coyotes and ............ on 03/23/2012 12:41:28 MDT Print View

Craig always has the most interesting runs :) where I run is pretty prime habitat for lions, I've seen some sign here and there, but haven't spied one yet running- probably just a matter of time; I do see coyotes regularly though, not the bold packs like Craig has encountered- in MT coyotes tend to run (fast) when they get a whiff of man

David Thomas
(DavidinKenai) - MLife

Locale: North Woods. Far North.
Re: Kooks and Mountain Lions and Heroics on 03/23/2012 12:53:58 MDT Print View

It's nice to see that Craig's mind is so active when he hikes.Fantasy

Josh Greninger
(travis.bickle) - F
Re: on 03/23/2012 13:48:08 MDT Print View

I'm sad that I didn't come across this earlier.
I'll be hiking the R2R2R in April, but won't be ready to run it. If anyone is interested in running it in October - let me know!
I'm going to be training for it, but would rather do it with friends than alone! I can't get anyone I know to do it with me (I tried). I guess I don't know the right people. Haha.

Eugene Smith
(Eugeneius) - MLife

Locale: Nuevo Mexico
"2012 R2R2R Group - Training Log's" on 03/23/2012 14:02:42 MDT Print View

Travis,

Come out and hang with everyone, there will be ~20 people strong, some of us will be running, others hiking.

April 14th.

Josh Greninger
(travis.bickle) - F
Re: on 03/23/2012 14:41:44 MDT Print View

Eugene - I wish! It's an 8 hour drive from San Diego. I'll be hiking it April 27th-30th.
I'm hoping that some of those who couldn't make it this time could get together for it after summer. :}
I am going to train for and use the Cuyamaca 3 Peaks 50K to prepare for the R2R2R.
http://www.cuyamaca3peaks.com/Resources/Profile%20Cuyamaca%203%20Pks%2050K.pdf

I've also got a 1,000ft elevation gain over 1.5 mi switchback trail up a "mountain" 10 minutes from my house. I'm planning to run up and down that with a 20lb weight vest. I think I'll try to keep records of my times from bottom to top to keep myself interested via breaking personal records for speed (since I'll surely be sick of the scenery).

Edited by travis.bickle on 03/23/2012 14:44:00 MDT.

Tom Kirchner
(ouzel) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Northwest/Sierra
Re: Kooks and Mountain Lions and Heroics on 03/23/2012 17:00:56 MDT Print View

"But I suppose it would make for a more interesting obituary than choking to death on a Frito or dying of a stroke in Denny's at age 73."

But not as interesting as a guy that died far up in the mountains while running a trail marathon at the age of 80. ;)

Mike M
(mtwarden) - MLife

Locale: Montana
fall run on 03/23/2012 19:10:59 MDT Print View

Travis I know Thom (had to pull the pin on this run due to injury) made mention of a fall run, I'm sure if you posted a thread a few months ahead you'll get some interest- worked for Eugene :)

Mike

Art ...
(asandh) - F
Re: Re: on 03/23/2012 19:26:46 MDT Print View

travis - are you talking about Cowles Mt. ?

Mike M
(mtwarden) - MLife

Locale: Montana
sick :( on 03/25/2012 14:27:23 MDT Print View

started getting sick after my long run last Sat, had a full blown chest flu (killer cold??) by Sun- was down for the count through Thursday- got alight lift in Friday, my run on Sat was short and not fun, Sun was better :) Now my poor wife is down for the count

Mike

Eugene Smith
(Eugeneius) - MLife

Locale: Nuevo Mexico
"2012 R2R2R Group - Training Log's" on 03/25/2012 14:58:26 MDT Print View

Hang in there Mike! I hope you and your wife have a full and speedy recovery soon.

I don't know about you all but spring is in full effect here. Finally managed to get in some heat "conditioning", temps got up to 86F on my run today. I only got out for 2.5 hours, but it was all steep climbing (3,600'), by the time I was done I had concentric salt rings on my hat and clothing, followed by a nice cramp that took forever to release back at the trailhead during my post run stretching.

I get cramps in my inner thigh (abductor) fairly regularly on longer runs with hard climbing, even staying on top of salt and hydration isn't always enough to keep them at bay. It is usually the only area that I experience cramps. Like clockwork, if I severely high step and/or lift my knee up towards my chest I can usually trigger a cramp in that area. I'm starting to think that I have poor mobility in this area and need to develop this area. It's definitely a weak point for me and one that I want to shake.

Any thoughts or experience folks?

Art ...
(asandh) - F
Re: "2012 R2R2R Group - Training Log's" on 03/25/2012 15:20:01 MDT Print View

Eugene - you could become a plodder and run like me. I barley lift my legs at all, problem solved. of course I tend to trip a lot.

Eugene Smith
(Eugeneius) - MLife

Locale: Nuevo Mexico
"2012 R2R2R Group - Training Log's" on 03/25/2012 15:32:23 MDT Print View

Art,

It's funny you should mention "plodding", aka "ultra shuffle", because I actually think it is that very motion that contributes to my cramps occasionally. I'm blaming it on my lack of mobility and wooden legs.

It will be very interesting to see how things shake out climbing back up SK with all those high steps and fatigued leg muscles.

Tom Kirchner
(ouzel) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Northwest/Sierra
Re: "2012 R2R2R Group - Training Log's"@ Eugene on 03/25/2012 16:55:09 MDT Print View

"Any thoughts or experience folks?"

That particular cramp bedeviled me throughout my entire running and climbing careers. It has to be one of the most painful cramps around, IME. I found stretching to help but not to be the whole answer. What really had a noticeable effect for me was taking magnesium supplements. It is probably the most overlooked electrolyte and it is easy to not get enough in your diet. I currently take in about 500 mg from dietary sources and supplements. Might be worth a try. I am assuming you are adequately hydrated and electrolyte-ed otherwise,ie sodium, potassium, and calcium. Good luck, Eugene. That particular cramp is a grade A bummer.

Josh Greninger
(travis.bickle) - F
Re: Cowles Mt. on 03/26/2012 11:20:50 MDT Print View

Art - Yeah, I was referring to Cowles! I ran 8-10 miles yesterday around Mission Trails and up and down Cowles Mt.

Art ...
(asandh) - F
Final Long Training Run for RRR on 03/26/2012 11:36:28 MDT Print View

Three weeks out is the perfect time for the final "long" training run for the RRR.
just enough time to recovery and be stronger than ever.

Saturday was Old Goats 50.
Best thing I can say is that I finished, and had no major issues.
It is billed as one of the hardest 50 milers in the country.
With over 13,000 of gain, it was the hardest 50 I've done.
Perfect warmup for R2R2R.
I was a steady plodder all day long, but had a serious case of the "slows".
Finished a full 45 min. behind where I expected to (unofficially 13'47").
The closest I have ever come to the cutoff in any race so far.
But, perfect weather, and lots of fun.
John came in about 17 minutes ahead of me, he'll be at RRR too.

Eugene Smith
(Eugeneius) - MLife

Locale: Nuevo Mexico
"2012 R2R2R Group - Training Log's" on 03/26/2012 12:16:54 MDT Print View

@Tom,

You know exactly the cramp I'm talking about and yes, it is a GRADE A bummer when they creep in. Thanks for the magnesium advice. I'm fairly sure I get adequate magnesium in my daily intake of food and such, but it is worth looking into.


@Art,

50 miles IS long sir! Well done. +13,000' of climbing to boot, prime conditioning for R2R2R, sure makes my measly short/climbing run yesterday look like a walk in the mall. ;-) I will try to keep up with you April 14th. Considering all the injuries and setbacks that have plagued almost everyone at some point or another over the last several months, it's good to see people coming out on the other side ready and excited. Who cares if it's plodding, hiking, running, scrambling, as long as you're doing it under your own strength and taking something away from the experience at the end of the day.

Craig W.
(xnomanx) - F - M
Re: "2012 R2R2R Group - Training Log's" on 03/26/2012 12:42:07 MDT Print View

Nice job Art, sounds like a respectable time for the conditions/distance.

My training has been spotty over the last few weeks, only 31 miles run this last week with no substantial distance. Yesterday's planned long run got rained out, but I'm on two weeks of spring break right now, so I'll get out plenty this week.

Have a 25-30 with good climbing scheduled for tomorrow morning, will try and will also do another 25 with climbing next weekend and then it's about it for anything over 12-15 until race day.

I'm not worried about finishing the R2R2R, just really have no idea what sort of time I'll be looking at. So at this point, just looking to enjoy myself (relatively speaking, of course) and have a good day in the canyon.


Trying to crank out them mugs right now, got 26 handles to make and assemble today; I'm cutting it a bit close on getting these fired in time as I'll be out camping with the family in Nevada next week. Can't wait for some nice open desert running.

Adan Lopez
(Lopez) - F

Locale: San Gabriel Valley
Any R2YeahRight2R sippy cups left? on 03/27/2012 23:33:13 MDT Print View

Art, way to lay it down, man! That's awesome. GC is going to feel more like just a plain old C after that run.

Eugene, I've had a history of cramps so I have an idea what you're up against. Ive become an expert at responding to my cramps quickly, but how do you stretch that muscle?! Seems like a tough one, Good luck man.

So, I've been plugging along pretty good on my cross-training, feeling strong as ever lately. Managed a slow 10 miles last week without any knee pain. So when Craig called for an easy, flat 10 into Coyote-Lion canyon, I thought it would be the perfect test run. The run was going better than expected, absolutely got my wings back nicely. Then around mile 8 I got a few good jabs in the knee and I immediately heard the sound of a needle getting dragged across a record. We walked out, iced the knee with an ice pack and my ego with some cold beers.

So Wisner, if there's any R2YouWish2R sippy cups left, put my name on one and fill it with straight bourbon please. I'll be manning the Phantom Ranch aid station and serving up all-you-can-eat fritos, I've got a few big bags to spare. However, the stoke remains high for April 14th! Can't wait to see all your ugly faces! 18 days!!

Art ...
(asandh) - F
RRR Beer Mug Change on 03/28/2012 09:06:47 MDT Print View

Craig
slight change in the Beer Mug tally.
Art +2 for the full R2R2R mugs.
+1 for the Phantom Ranch sippy cup.
if its too late - no problem, you're great for doing it.

ERIC PAYNE
(vaporjourney)

Locale: Greater Gila
re: R2R2R training on 03/28/2012 14:20:29 MDT Print View

Whoa Nelly: I just got invited on a 29.5 mile run with 10,000 of vertical just outside of Boulder this Saturday. I'm either going to die, or be very prepared for the R2R2R after this...

Eugene Smith
(Eugeneius) - MLife

Locale: Nuevo Mexico
"2012 R2R2R Group - Training Log's" on 03/28/2012 15:00:10 MDT Print View

Take care of yourself Eric. I'm in preservation mode, kinda apprehensive about nabbing a long run this weekend, not sure it will be of any benefit, other than a spirit lifter. Two weeks out too close? What do you all think? Either the work is put in or its too little too late yea at this point? I guess it depends on a lot of factors and the individual.

Two weeks out and all I want to do is do this thing already, but gotta be patient.


Btw. If anyone needs salt tablets and doesn't want to buy them I have a fresh bottle of S-Caps, so one or two of you are welcome to some if you plan on taking any additional electrolytes.

On a different note, this may or may not be of any interest to others, but figure since this is BPL I should ask. Anyone interested in checking out shelters, stove setups, packs, etc? We could geek out on some backpacking gear Friday if folks get in early enough. I wanna scope out Craig's MLD Solomid and ShangriLa3. Anyone care to share? If not, no worries.

Edited by Eugeneius on 03/28/2012 15:05:57 MDT.

Art ...
(asandh) - F
Re: "2012 R2R2R Group - Training Log's" on 03/28/2012 16:02:08 MDT Print View

2 weeks out doing a run that hard, for the rest of us is cutting it pretty close.
could do more harm than good.
I've done two 50 milers two weeks apart, and while I did ok, I definitely wasn't at my best for the second one.

However, Eric, you're in Hardrock right? So you need to suffer as much as possible now, since that is probably your number one goal race for the year.
I say go for it.

Edited by asandh on 03/28/2012 16:04:17 MDT.

Craig W.
(xnomanx) - F - M
"2012 R2R2R Group - Training Log's" on 03/28/2012 17:44:24 MDT Print View

I'll probably be doing one more run in the 20-25 mile range with ~5000 gain over the next four or 5 days. After that I'll take it easy.

I figure even if you run long this weekend, it still gives a good two full weeks to recover and run easy.

Yeah, Eugene, I'll bring some gear if you want to see it. I've still never seen a Trailstar in person, so you could bring yours.

I'll take you up on the S-caps Eugene. I was planning on buying a bottle in the next week, but I never use them unless I'm running really long, so I'd rather skip it. If you could spare 5 or 6 it would be cool.

Eugene Smith
(Eugeneius) - MLife

Locale: Nuevo Mexico
"2012 R2R2R Group - Training Log's" on 03/29/2012 05:54:48 MDT Print View

Done and done Craig.

No worries packing all your stuff, really just have my eye on scoping out the Solomid.

Hiking Malto
(gg-man) - F
Last? Long Run on 03/30/2012 18:03:53 MDT Print View

I have been lazy this week or maybe a better way of putting it is that life got it in the way. I have done NOTHING since my 40 Saturday so weather permitting I will do a 32 mile run tomorrow. Maybe next week I will get back into a routine.

Eugene, I will be anything but UL on this trip. My wife is coming with me so heavy tent and blow up full size air mat. It has to be comfy if I ever want her to come with me again.

Craig W.
(xnomanx) - F - M
Re: Last? Long Run on 03/30/2012 18:29:30 MDT Print View

Lazy?
Your 40 plus a 32 is as much or more than many can muster in a week...or a month.

I'd be afraid to see what you're capable of if you put in 100%...or maybe it would look something like doing 2,600+ miles in less than 100 days? :)

This timing is terrible. I'm on two weeks of spring break and I'm supposed to be "tapering". Tapering after just having had a terrible two weeks of trying to make running fit into life. It's hard enough to find the time between work and family and art to run 45 miles in a week...and now that I have nothing but time and desire to run, I'm not supposed to be.

Life can be like that, huh?

It's all OK though, I'm feeling good!

Mike M
(mtwarden) - MLife

Locale: Montana
Greg's back on 03/30/2012 21:01:45 MDT Print View

Craig- what you don't realize is that Greg is training so that he can carry me when needed. I'm going to need him in tip top shape, so when I see him slacking like that it has me concerned.

Mike

Eugene Smith
(Eugeneius) - MLife

Locale: Nuevo Mexico
"2012 R2R2R Group - Training Log's" on 03/30/2012 21:22:40 MDT Print View

Greg!

You're a machine. I just peeked at your #'s from the last few weeks, what a busy man.

Mike,

How's that sickness? You feeling better?



T-Minus 2 weeks and counting.

Mike M
(mtwarden) - MLife

Locale: Montana
sickness on 03/30/2012 21:33:16 MDT Print View

Eugene- I'm 100% better than when I was laid up, but this dam(n) thing is hanging on- still hacking some stuff up and coughing some when I run- took today off, hope tomorrow's run goes a little better

hopefully it won't result in even more time that Greg is having to carry me :)

Mike

Hiking Malto
(gg-man) - F
Final Training Run on 04/01/2012 11:54:11 MDT Print View

Yesterday’s training run was epic indeed. In spite of needing to taper I decide to combine running and weight lifting all in one event, I figure it would aid in carrying Mike. So I borrowed an old Kelty pack from a neighbor and stuffed it full of filled water bottle, old sleeping bags and even a couple of bricks. The weight was almost 120lb. Off to the AT Approach trail where I ran last weekend. You would think that I would stand out with a pack that size but not on the AT. I fit right in with the human pack mules though they were hardly running like I was.

The weight was certainly a challenge. I had to take a break at the halfway point (mile 16) because the pack hip belt was rubbing me raw. I thought about pouring out some water but then I remembered that no pain, no gain….. I was gaining a lot. There was some good news though, the pack didn’t bounce much. My theory is that gravity pulled that heavy weight down, never allowing it to move up.

It got interesting at mile 26. There was a boggy area that I started running through next to a dirt road. Unfortunately I sunk all the down to my armpits and couldn’t move. I was stuck there in my mud bath for a half hour until two rednecks in an old truck winched my out. The final six miles were uneventful.

What worked?
I survived.

What could be improved?
I decided that the heavy weight alone wasn’t a good simulation for Mike. I decide if I do it again I would also throw a rabid coon in the pack. The flailing and noise seems like it would replicate Mike.

My final long run could have happened that way but…….

Mike M
(mtwarden) - MLife

Locale: Montana
Re: Final Training Run on 04/01/2012 15:08:40 MDT Print View

Greg- excellent :) for a minute it almost sounded like one of Craig's adventures!

my week was rather uneventful, got a good 10 mile run in Helena with more elevation than I've been getting at home. my 10 mile run today felt better illness wise, think I'm finally shaking this crud

sad to hear about Micah True, I guess if a guy has to go better on a run then sick in bed

Mike

Hiking Malto
(gg-man) - F
Storytelling on 04/01/2012 15:53:57 MDT Print View

Mike,
Craig's reality trumps my embellishment anyday!

Mike M
(mtwarden) - MLife

Locale: Montana
Re: Storytelling on 04/01/2012 18:00:39 MDT Print View

mine too :)

Eugene Smith
(Eugeneius) - MLife

Locale: Nuevo Mexico
"2012 R2R2R Group - Training Log's" on 04/01/2012 18:30:25 MDT Print View

I'm tentative to take the bait, but, considering your exemplary training Greg, this story doesn't sound out of the realm of possibility! Either way, what a story man, love the mudpit imagery. Put me down on the list behind Mike, ill hold onto one of his ankles. ;-)


My stomach threw my run for a loop today, not sure if it was the heat and effort, or a combination of things. All I know is persistent stomach nausea and a poorly timed bowel evacuation made things fun!

Adan Lopez
(Lopez) - F

Locale: San Gabriel Valley
Tapering on 04/01/2012 21:56:06 MDT Print View

Dude, you guys are cracking me up. Greg, you're doin a R2R2R every week!

Craig W.
(xnomanx) - F - M
Tapering on 04/01/2012 23:34:36 MDT Print View

Seriously, you confused me. If anyone is going to get out with 120 pounds, I'd have thought it would be you.

Art ...
(asandh) - F
Re: Re: Storytelling on 04/02/2012 10:41:41 MDT Print View

not sure I could even lift a 120 lb pack, let alone hike with one.

Dan Hewins
(hewinsd) - F

Locale: Chihuahuan Desert
getting high on 04/02/2012 18:51:56 MDT Print View

The last three-four have been pretty hectic for me work wise traveling between Las Cruces and Albuquerque every other week, but I have been able to keep up on my running.

I've basically been pulling 12hr+ days in the lab while in Albuquerque, which has left me to dreaded late evening dread-mill sessions back at my hotel... Usually I run a 5 mile progression workout (avg: 7min/mi) then bump up the incline and spend some time running around 5-6mph on a steep incline. I think it's probably an alright approach, but probably more suited for shorter/faster distances.

On the weekends I've managed to get in some pretty good runs in the Sandia Mountains, which still have a pretty good amount of snow pack above 9500' - I have been in pretty good shape for the last few years, but I think I am feeling the best that I ever have running gradual climbs (the straight up stuff can still force some hands-on-knees action).

I am glad we're getting close, because I don't know how much more training I could do without some kind of reward.

Now just to stay healthy this week on the treadmill and then maybe one last mountain run before the big day. See you all soon!

Dan Hewins
(hewinsd) - F

Locale: Chihuahuan Desert
tapering? on 04/03/2012 21:57:47 MDT Print View

Is anyone tapering (yet)? Looking back I have always held out on tapering and ended up training almost right up to a target race/run, which realistically doesn't work for me... In some cases target runs or opportunities to run something cool have come up a few days before a target marathon leaving me thinking about what is right and what is fun... I hope I don't make the same mistake coming into this run. I noticed that resting up 3-days in advance helped me feel surprisingly fresh late into my most recent marathon (race; December) -- I'd like to at least feel somewhat fresh for as much of this as possible.

To this end I have a plan... This week I am running short 5-or-less milers (@7 to 7:30min/mi with some hiking/hill jogs in between). I am shooting for one more 10-12 mile run this weekend (if the recent snow melts off the Sandias in Albuquerque I'll run La Luz Trail). Early next week I plan on taking it pretty easy with a short run Monday 3-5mi, then maybe a hike on Tuesday (2mi up our small mountain in Las Cruces). On Wednesday I plan on calling it and coming to a complete halt resting up and packing for a Thursday departure (Flagstaff Thurs./GC Fri).

Art ...
(asandh) - F
Re: tapering? on 04/03/2012 22:48:27 MDT Print View

Dan - tapering is pretty interconnected with and relative to the intensity of your overall training and racing schedule, and also a function of whether or not the event is a "goal" event or a training event.

I've never taken more than one zero day in a row leading up to a race, usually the day before.
IF I've been training hard I might do alternate days the last week :
8mi, 0, 5mi, 0, 4mi, 0, race day
if my training has been normal, I might do :
8mi, 0, 5mi, 4mi, 3mi, 0, race day

I back off the long runs first, then the hill work, then just do casual easy runs.

my taper specifics sort of depend on the training schedule leading up to it.

Edited by asandh on 04/04/2012 08:18:22 MDT.

Dan Hewins
(hewinsd) - F

Locale: Chihuahuan Desert
Re: Re: tapering? on 04/04/2012 14:26:44 MDT Print View

Art, I agree for sure about the correlation with training and the target event - in my own case from what I can tell I usually hang onto the intensity too long (read: I am a type-A runner and can't rest for more than a day even though research confirms it's value). Hopefully a few solid days of rest will freshen up my legs for a good day's run. Hopefully we can find a good rhythm where we are having an enjoyable day possibly in small groups.

Mike M
(mtwarden) - MLife

Locale: Montana
last full week of training on 04/08/2012 14:32:08 MDT Print View

pretty good week, got 30 miles in w/ a 12 mile Sat and a 8 today. I'm going to run Tuesday- probably 5-ish and call it good until the 14th

doesn't seem that long ago when we were first posting up in early November :)

Dan Hewins
(hewinsd) - F

Locale: Chihuahuan Desert
Re: last full week of training on 04/08/2012 18:47:57 MDT Print View

Last full week for me was 51 mi(7h. 11'). The week included 4 high intensity treadmill workouts w/ climbing sessions at the end in Albuquerque (6200' elevation), a 12 mile run up to 9500' (total climb 3000') in the Sandia Mountains (felt good to keep on, but hit deep snow (did this run 3x in the last 3 weeks each time getting a little higher due to snow melt), today I got in my last solid effort of 11 mile traverse over/back of the Organ Mountains in Las Cruces hitting 6325' at the pass (total climb 2300'). Probably run tomorrow or Tuesday then put the kibosh on training.