Dear All:
I am a relatively new to the ultralight scene and have been trying to upgrade my gear. Being a super dork I made a spread sheet of my current gear and what it weighed (based on posted internet weights) and what I would like to replace it with... then I calculated a $/(Oz saved) for each new item.
After a New Years backpacking trip (with my current gear) I felt that my stuff weighed a LOT more that than the weight I calculated. So, I broke down and bought a scale. To my surprise almost everything was at least 20% to 50% heavier than the value posted on the product website! My pack, sleeping bag, and tent were EACH 2 lbs heavier than listed online!! The only things that were correct were my stove, Tikka, and ridge rest.

Here are my questions:
Within the ultralight community are most vendors upfront about a product's weight?
Has anyone had a similar problem with inaccurate weights posted on-line?
When I start buying lighter gear do I have to take the scale to the store with me? What about companies that don't have a bricks & mortar storefront?

seth

From what I've seen, many companies have inaccurate weights. I tend to check reviews at backpackgeartest.org, as well as here, to see what the actual weight is. However, I don't recall seeing differences being THAT much!

What brands did you get??

Tom

My experience is that the "boutique" gearmakers are generally honest about their gear specs. In no particular order, ULA, Six Moon Designs, Henry Shires, GoLite, Western Mountaineering and MontBell (a Japanese co. that's relatively small here but big in Asia)...

As for the larger gearmakers, I have found their gear specs to be off (and it's much more often heavier/colder rather than lighter/warmer than stated)! Marmot, Eureka, Osprey, the list goes on and on. Slumberjack is particularly egregious in bag warmth rating. And in the travel world, Eagle Creek packs can be significantly heavier than advertised. One "big guy" exception is REI. Their specs are generally accurate.

>Within the ultralight community are most vendors upfront about a product's weight?


I agree with Benjamin's comments on this. Ultralight vendors know their weights must be accurate because we're going to weight the gear for ourselves, while most large vendors leave it to their marketing department.


>Has anyone had a similar problem with inaccurate weights posted on-line?


Yes, with some. I consider the vendor before I trust the posted weight.


>When I start buying lighter gear do I have to take the scale to the store with me?


Sure. You might get some funny looks, but at least you'll know the correct weight. I've gone in to REI intending to buy something and when I found it weighed significantly more than expected the scale saved me the cost of the purchase.


>What about companies that don't have a bricks & mortar storefront?

Look around or ask, especially on BPL or www.backpackgeartest.org. Most gear that you're considering has already been purchased and weighed by another ultralighter. Googling for weight could save you the cost of shipping, twice.

Thanks for the quick replies. I will have to check out some of those companies that I am not familiar with (ULA & Shires). Does the Montbell stuff run small??

As for what I have now: I have a Large Gregory Pallasides Pack (7.88lbs), Mountain Hardware Hammerhead 3 + groundcloth (10.2 lbs) and a Sierra designs 15 degree synthetic bag + compression sac (4.8lbs). Granted that most of my gear is around 2 to 3 years old and stuff has been getting lighter and lighter each year, but a 30% to 50% weight savings in 2 years seems a lot to me.

The first thing to "go" is gonna be the tent. It is a fantastic tent for three people or short overnight trips, but when it is just my girlfriend and I it is super heavy. I was looking at the Golite Hex + nest or one of the BD tents: first light/beta-light.

The pack and bag will likely follow.

The rest of my kit is pretty much in order. I have just been holding off buying these big ticket items as long as I can. If I had known how much my pack & sleeping bag really weighed (I knew the tent was heavy) I might have forgone the ultralight stove and shell and other little junk and spent that money on the stuff that matters!

Seth

Have you verified that your scale is accurate? Not saying it isn't, but if *everything* is turning up above-spec, it'd be helpful to know you're dealing with accurate data.

Try weighing a range of known standards to ensure it's accurate at low, mid and high weights, and develop a conversion chart if need be, or return it if there's a lot of variability (I've had to do this myself).

That said, it's all too common to find gear weighing more than claimed. Gear below spec is rare indeed, and then only by ounces or grams while major pieces are sometimes over by pounds. Packs and tents are the worst offenders.

I've tested early production-run gear that didn't match prototype weight due to variation in fabric weights once (overseas) production commenced. I find that domestically made gear more commonly meets spec, and suspect lack of on-site daily control of off-shore manufacture is a big contributing factor.

The rest is Dilbert-inspired engineering versus marketing fluff.

Edited by halfturbo on 01/09/2007 13:31:11 MST.

Good point with the scale... I just now hung a bladder on the scale hook and tared the scale and then poured in 2 cups of water (a pint a pound the world around!) and it measured 1.006 lbs. The 0.006 error is the error quoted on the scale box or it could just be based on my poor pouring skills.

I poured out the water and weighed the empty bladder weight. Then I went to the sink and poured in 16 cups of water (2 cups at a time). Minus the bladder weight it was right on at 8 pounds +/- 0.05 which seems pretty good to me.

Here is the scale I bought:
http://www.toplinedigitalscales.com/catalog.php?action=124&item_id=409


Seth

Well, it does say "top line" so that should settle it! :)

Kidding aside, I am wondering if your scale is understating the weight!

1 gallon of water (8 pints) = 8.345 lbs
1 pint (2 cups) - 1.043 lb

So right there, your scale is understating the weight by about 0.6 ounce per pint -- or 4.8 ounces per gallon???

Edited by ben2world on 01/09/2007 13:28:57 MST.

"I am wondering if your scale is understating the weight!"

I didn't know that a pint is actually 1.043lbs, should have looked that one up.

So... I went back and performed 5 sets of metric measurements since that is what I am more familiar with.
2 Nalgene bottles of H2O poured in a bucket (2800ml) weighed in at 2722g, 2732g, and 2734g.
I did this twice more with just a single bottle full (1400ml) and got 1374g and 1378g.

1400 mls measured by my Nalgene and poured into my Pyrex measuring cup showed that the Nalgene was off by a few mls. The meniscus was just below where it should have been.

This means that the scale is in fact understating the weight by 1.7% at 1.4kg (3.08lbs) and by 2.5% at 2.8kg (6.17lbs) and all my stuff is even heavier than I thought!

For my purposes though, 2% accuracy is plenty good.

Yeah, it's my specialty. When people tell me they have a problem, I walk them through step by step to show them that their problem is actually even worse than they thought!

Edited by ben2world on 01/09/2007 17:51:09 MST.

Mental Note: Never let Ben know about my problems! ;)

Tom

>>When I start buying lighter gear do I have to take the scale to the store with me?

Yes, by all means, do. As Douglas mentioned, it will save you a lot of $$$ in overweight purchases.

Another benefit is that it will help you meet other weight-obsessed geeks. At my local REI, I've met two other UL folks who happen to work there undercover. The scale was what signaled them that I may be a kindred spirit.

Actually, water can weigh quite different amounts depending on the amount of mineral in it.

Try measuring stacks of nickels instead, which weight almost exactly 5 grams each.

$2 in Nickels weighs exactly 0.200kg!!

Salt makes water boil at a lower temperature by disrupting the packing of the water and making it less dense.

stooma wrote: "Salt makes water boil at a lower temperature by disrupting the packing of the water and making it less dense."

I think you have that backwards...

Adding salt raises the boiling temperature, and increases the density. The main reason you need more dive weights in salt water than fresh.

Edited by eaglemb on 01/09/2007 19:00:34 MST.

Oops... I meant freeze.
But you are also right about the density issue as well.

How then is the Dallas water 2% lighter than what it is supposed to be?

Because of the wierdness of water- it is at it's most dense at 4C- then expands again as the (polar) molecules orient themselves onto crystals for freezing. It is also less dense at room temperature, as are most fluids.
no clue why Dallas water might be less dense- is it at equal temp to non-Dallas water?
hope this helps some, Betsy

It's not just the water, eveything in Texas is less dense.

Edited by jjpitts on 01/10/2007 11:26:18 MST.

"It's not just the water, eveything in Texas is less dense."

Now, you're being ironic!

Hey James---Texas is the only state allowed by our country to fly its flag at the same height as the US flag---

Thus, by federal law, my state is better than yours.


:D