The Notch is coming....
http://tarptent.com/notch.html
.


This is a somewhat similar shelter to the SS1 (two poles,separate mesh inner,two doors and vestibules) but lighter and smaller.
On my backyard tests it looks like it will accommodate the taller hikers too.
(that is on a mock up because only Henry has had the real thing...)
More head and foot room than the Moment .
Originally it was called the X 1 because it is the Tarptent 10th anniversary shelter.
Happy 10th anniversary Henry!!!
Avaliable mid next month.
Franco
The "deal" here is that if you get in early you may get the chance to have one this year. The first run will be ready mid month

Edited by Franco on 11/20/2011 17:12:25 MST.

Wow!!

that looks mighty fine.

Like SS1/ Moment hybrid

What's that weigh with optional poles?
Duane

Jeff
You are correct.
Methink there was some hanky panky going on between those two last winter.

Duane
26oz for the shelter and pegs, 4 oz for the two poles.
Franco

Happy Anniversary Henry!

Looks brilliant.

Edited by FamilyGuy on 11/20/2011 19:47:30 MST.

Way to go Henry!

Thank you Franco.

Looks top notch! I would want my pole handles to be up, and it looks like that could be done?

Edited by jshann on 11/20/2011 19:55:10 MST.

I like my Moment but want a little more headroom and a real double wall over a liner. The SS1 looked a little too big, quirky, and heavy but this seems IDEAL!

It looks like a TT Moment with trekking poles instead of the rainbow hoop pole.

We'll have to wait for the specs to be published.

Specs are on the TT page:

Weight (oz/kg): 26oz with 6 pegs.
Max Floor Width (in/cm): 32"
Floor Length (in/cm): 84"
Height (in/cm): 43"

Tarptent Notch Spec Sheet

Hopefully we can see one at Henry Coe in Feb. Looks like it will be popular.

I'd like to see it (and the Stratosphire) with a one piece pole like the Moment. Well............maybe. How is this different from the Stratosphere? Weight? Floor shape?

Edited by skinewmexico on 11/20/2011 20:47:37 MST.

When you set this up, can you set it up with the inner tent already clipped in and kind of do it all at once or do you have to set up the fly then clip the inner tent underneath?

Can anyone tell me how much the fly weighs on it's own?

Also can the shelter be pitched low to the ground for stormy and wet/windy conditions?

Great work. I don't need another shelter but I'm already wanting this!

Tyler - yes you can. The outer fly pitches first keeping the inner completely dry!

I really like the look of this as a summer shelter.
Any info on the 'above head' clearance when lying down?
I don't need another shelter.
I don't need another shelter.
I don't need another shelter.
I don't need another shelter.
I don't need another shelter.

Edited by MikefaeDundee on 11/21/2011 10:11:10 MST.

I updated the dimensions graphic to better show the head/foot clearance.

http://tarptent.com/notch.html#specs

You might need to reload the page if the old graphic still shows up.

-H

How would this compare to the ease of setup of the Moment? If you had to describe it in generalized steps would it be kinda like this? Basically one extra step?

Moment
- take out of bag
- thread cross pole
- stake ends
- tighten

Notch
- take out of bag
- stake ends
- put poles in
- stake flaps
- tichten

It does look very nice.
Shame I just bought a Duomid.

Happy anniversary Henry :-)

Edited by stephenm on 11/21/2011 11:16:26 MST.

Thanks Henry.
Are there guy loops on top of the poles? Might be worthwhile.
Are the vents closable? One picture on the site seems to show that horizontal rain could enter. Maybe even mesh backing in the vent to catch wind driven rain?
I'm really liking the look of this.

Tyler,

Yes, you got it. We'll get a setup video posted in two or three weeks but what you'll see is exactly as you describe.

-H

John,

The fly with stakes and stuffsack is 17 ounces. The interior is 9 ounces.

Re: staking low to the ground, yes certainly lower than shown (with 45"/115cm poles). Dropping the poles down to 42" or so will put the fly edge down to within a couple inches of ground. The shelter also works by lowering one pole only if you need to lower just one edge.

-H

> Are there guy loops on top of the poles? Might be worthwhile.

Not directly but it's easy to tie off to the interior apex loops that connect the interior or just a loop over the top of your poles. Easy mod if you want us to add more direct loops.

> Are the vents closable? One picture on the site seems to show that horizontal rain could enter. Maybe even mesh backing in the vent to catch wind driven rain?

No but the vent covers come down pretty far--the photos are shot from below vent level. It would take true horizontal rain with splash up to get through. Easy mod if you want us to add a closure.

Edited by 07100 on 11/21/2011 12:06:40 MST.

Looking very tempting. :)

Henry, I do think guy loops on top of the poles would be very nice if they were on the outside. It would effectively allow the tent to be hung like a hammock so that poles aren't needed. I'd love to not need any poles at all.

I never thought of that Eugene. Good thinking. My reason for loops on top of the poles were for extra side guying to the ground. Win win. :)

I consistently can't get any of your .mp4 videos to run on WIN7.

Can you use a different foremat, please?


It also appears that the storm flaps at each end are not accessible from inside if the net liner is used? Is that correct?


The photo of the net liner pitched alone seems to indicate that it requires 2 small poles, one at each end. Do we have to disassemble one of the pitchlock sets to get these?

Edited by wandering_bob on 11/21/2011 13:18:39 MST.

Bob, have you installed Quicktime? Should solve your problem.

Yes, but Quicktime is 32 bit and my WIN7 is 64 bit.


Apple does not make a 64 bit version of Quicktime.


WIN7 users will need a different foremat, Henry.

Edited by wandering_bob on 11/21/2011 13:26:32 MST.

I have WIN7 Professional 64 bit on my computer and Quicktime and TT's video's play for me. I have no idea if Quicktime is what allows the videos to play, maybe I have some other program in addition to Quicktime...just saying what I have. I'm no computer expert.

Quicktime 7.7.1 is for Win7.

http://support.apple.com/kb/DL837

Bob,

IE9 on Win7 breaks the video playback. Still not sure why, works fine in IE8. Better yet, use Chrome or FireFox. It isn't Quicktime problem.

Storm flaps can be opened from inside with some maneuvering.

Re: poles at interior ends, yes I pulled a strut out of the fly. A stick or whatever would be fine too (or go without although that's not ideal).

-H

Edited by 07100 on 11/21/2011 13:51:16 MST.

What about the floor area of 15.2 on the Notch versus 19 sq ft on the Moment.

It looks like the floors are the same except the moment has the extra space on the door side that makes for the extra 3.8 sf ft of floor space. Meaning the sleeping space is the same, the Moment just has an extra area for gear on the door side.

How does it feel inside versus the Moment?

The Moment is 42" across the middle vs 32" across the middle for the Notch. Yes, the Moment floor on the backside extends further back. We took that out and made it a vestibule/back door. The floor edge holds to the pole shaft via a velcro loop at ground level. As with the Moment you can rip away the velcro to pull back the floor edge for more vestibule space.

As for how it feels vs the Moment , I would saw that you feel like you have substantially more headroom albeit less floor room at your side. You wouldn't want to try to squeeze two (although my 6-year-old son and I fit fine together). When the doors are open it feels much more open/breezy/viewy (I made up that word) than the Moment.

Any plans on making a Notch for 1+ or 2?

Not this year but feel free to bug me about it in the spring. It would need double length end struts and the current carbon fiber single tube concept would be out the question. End struts would need to be jointed/foldable in some way to keep the packed length down.


EDIT: 11/27

I looked at this idea a bit more and I don't really see a way to blow the Notch design out to a 1+ or 2 version and have it come in any lighter/better/stronger than the existing StratoSpire 1 or 2. Both of those models offer more usable space at a lighter weight than an expanded Notch design with larger rear struts. So...I'm updating the answer to "no."

-H

Edited by 07100 on 11/27/2011 12:15:28 MST.

Henry,

First happy anniversary!

Second what are your thoughts on making this with two doors/ vestibules? I see similarities with MLDs Cricket and I really like the extra vestibule space afforded since it's concentrated on one side.

Terri, I don't understand your question. The Notch is dual door/dual vestibule although maybe you're asking why it's dual door? My belief is that dual door/vestibule offers much better ventilation, views, gear storage that doesn't interfere with entry/exit, and options for ventilation and exit during changing winds in storms. I also think a dual pole shelter is inherently stronger and better supported than a single pole shelter.

-H

What is the height at the head and the feet? Floor to where the netting starts to angle?

Wondering why this is under Gear Deals...is it going to be on sale at a reduced price for BPL Members?

I explained at the bottom of the initial post why it is in the Gear Deal section.
That was a bit cheeky and some may find it offensive but it was something that came to mind at the time.

About the "it looks like..."
No offence but Henry is busy looking at his own designs , what comes out is only a small part of the many others that for some reasons are never released.
As already mentioned , it really came from the Moment design using trekking poles rather than a tent pole and that is what it looks like.
The original design for the Moment also had vestibule space on either side.



This is my mock up of one of Henry's early versions of the Moment.
(that is how I "guess" how a shelter will turn out...)
Franco

I know there's a joke here with the cat, but we won't go there. :)
Duane

> What is the height at the head and the feet? Floor to where the netting starts to angle?

Please take a look the dimensions shown here -->

http://www.tarptent.com/notch.html#specs (click "Show Dimensions")

-H

Edited by 07100 on 11/21/2011 21:51:01 MST.

"I explained at the bottom of the initial post why it is in the Gear Deal section.
That was a bit cheeky and some may find it offensive but it was something that came to mind at the time."

Got it...thanks, Franco.

Duane
"I know there's a joke here with the cat, but we won't go there. :)"
Sometimes I do include a joke but in this case it was just Pip doing what she always did, play with my tents.
Pip died a few weeks ago , she was 18 and a half.

I still have her mother,Lucy, here she is testing my Exped DM 7
(this morning....)


Franco

Wouldn't a Notch +1 just be the Stratospire 1?

No. The SS1 and Notch have noticeably different configurations. THe SS1 is actually more a modified Mid where the fly is slightly offset from the inner tent. I think (pure speculation here) that the design would take snow loading better (the SS1). See the diagrams posted @ TT.

Franco can help more than I can here but the design of the SS1 is really quite unique.

They may get there in different ways but as far as weight, floor space, size in a dual door, dual trekking staff, inner net tent, etc it is effectively one size up.

My problem is I was dead set on a Moment now I have a new choice :)

I am still thinking Moment because I don't use trekking poles and I really value ease of setup. I don't think there is or could be a more simple tent to setup than a Moment. Plus I like the little extra pocket of space in the Moment for my dog (18 lb terrier).

The only thing that temps me about the Notch is the dual wall and the ability to really open it up for ventilation.

I've used the TT Moment quite a bit over the past two years in the northern-central Sierra and have always been happy with it, but the two factors that you note as beneifits of the Notch, "...dual wall and ability to really open it up for ventilation," are exactly what I would change on the Moment. Like you, I do not use trekking poles and dislike the small diameter optional poles offered as a workaround due to their lack of steadiness especially when compared to actual trekking poles. I'm sticking with my Moment for now, but if TarpTent implemented the additional door for increased ventilation and double wall design into version 2 of the Moment, well then I'd be first in line to buy.

Sorry to hear about Pip, Franco.

Thanks Jacob, I miss her...

Alex
Re poles
I feel like you do about the substitute poles particularly because I use strong trekking poles (ie : not the CF type) and set my tents up very taut.
(maybe a reason why they don't fail for me...)
However I don't recall negative comments from people that use the substitute poles and judging by the Aussie orders I would say that there are several hundreds of people out there using them.
Anyway , what's up with not using trekking poles ?
Do you have an allergy or something ?
Franco

Which of the 'Shires tents has the best snow loading?

I was thinking about a Scarp, but this looks interesting.

Thanks!

Franco, sorry to hear about Pip, a good cat is a joy.
No trekking poles here either, they might be nice for high water crossings.
Duane

Now THIS is something I've been after for years! A trekking pole set up with a small, Moment-like footprint and dual doors. Fantastic!

Personally, the only thing that I'd like to add to the design is a solid or semi-solid fabric inner. One of the problems I often have here is fine dust and debris blowing in and mesh doesn't stop it. If there would be a possibility for a solid fabric inner... if not fully enclosed, then at least halfway up... then I'd spring for this design immediately. May I ask if this possibility is in the works, or if it might be possible to request it?

Miguel
Ask, ask...
but since you are asking, why the Notch and not the SS1 ?
Franco

I need the smaller footprint. That's the main reason I prefer the Notch. I already have a Duomid and can't justify another similar item at the moment.

Admittedly I haven't checked the footprints of the two in detail yet. Is there a big difference that way? Is the SS1 stronger wind-wise?

Edited by butuki on 11/22/2011 23:22:02 MST.

OK, I thought so...
Yes the SS1 is larger, both the floor area and the vestibules too.(35" deep vestibules...)
Not sure about wind performance.
I had moderate winds on it in the Aussie Alps (only 30kmph gusts, when I measured...) but the poles did not move one bit.
The SS1 should be as good if not better.
My mate has had his Moment in pretty strong winds in British Columbia 9Queen Charlotte Islands) and Minnesota so I am confident that having the same end and using strong trekking poles it will do well too.
I was a bit concerned about the size of the SS2 (having used almost exclusively solo shelters for years...) but figured out that all I needed was a flat area for the floor because it does not really matter if under the vestibule is flat or not.
So in spite of the uneven terrain I managed very well with that one, making the SS1 easier again to pitch.
Choices, choices...
(the fabric inner had been discussed about the SS1, Henry needed a bit more convincing to go that way too)
Franco

I need one plumbed for hot water. :) So many choices and no ones happy. You can only do so much.
Duane

For those comparing the Tarptent 1 person shelters......

When you've been around in the UL world as long as I have and you either have or have had or tried or made as many shelters as I have, then anything new had better have a good reason for what it does. We're all searching for the Shangri-La of shelters. :-)

Looks like another great TT design.

Franco wrote, "Anyway , what's up with not using trekking poles ? Do you have an allergy or something?"

I don't need them. I know this sounds crazy, but I only need my two feet to walk. Besides, I like having my hands free while walking so I can easily pick my nose, scratch myself, and flip off children on the trail.

@Bob Bankhead

Those diagrams are awesome! Thanks!

You're welcome. That's a composite I made using copies of what's on Henry's website under "Specs" and "Show Dimensions" for each item. Thought some might find it helpful and avoid a few unnecessary questions.

Thanks Bob
The yellow mat in those drawings is the standard 20"x72" L type.

Alex
well , you are weird.
"Besides, I like having my hands free while walking so I can easily pick my nose, scratch myself, and flip off children on the trail.'
If you learned to use poles correctly, you would have your hand through the straps therefore would be able to still pick your nose and scratch yourself whilst walking with them .
If you really have problems visualising this, I'll do a You Tube clip for you.
As for flipping children , I find that the shoulder bump is more effective and least expected.
It all boils down to using the proper technique.
And don't come back to me in a few years complaining about bad knees, I have no sympathy for that whatsoever.

Franco

Edited by Franco on 11/24/2011 20:52:38 MST.

So, Franco, if you had to choose between the Notch and the SS1 which would you pick?

Not sure if I prefer the weight and stored size of the Notch or the extra room inside the StratoSpire 1, probably the former...
Franco

Depends on how many dogs/cats you want to put inside! The SS1 has more square feet.

OK, so I've been strongly considering buying the Moment for awhile, but now the Notch is out and I can't decide!

Since I've never been in either, I'm hoping someone can help me out with these questions.
1) Which is easier to set up?
2) Which has less condensation problems (factoring in that I'd use a liner for the Moment)?

It seems like the Notch would be superior in terms of condensation, but how much better is it? Just kind of better or way way better? I live in the PNW and want to worry about condensation as little as possible. Is the Notch leaps and bounds above the Moment + liner in this regard?

Andrew, since I've never seen either one I'm in the dark as much as you are, but since the Notch has 2 doors I'd think the Notch works much better in terms of condensation management. Plus you can set it up with inner only, too, when things get really warm.

If you already use poles go with the Notch. If you like the idea of two doors go with the Notch. If you want it up with two stakes get the Moment.

How the storm flaps are fixed when closed, is there a zipper? I can not tell it from the pictures.

Are the optional poles similar to arch poles in other tents, or are they made of stronger tubes?

As for wind stability, is Notch comparable to StratoSpire 1, or is it weaker? How would they both compare to, say, Scarp 2 without cross-poles? I mean, with my Scarp 2 I usually leave the cross-poles at home and take the basic 6 stakes plus 2 stakes and guys for the arch, just in case of a less protected camp site. Will some of these 1-person tents provide similar stability?

Decided this design was just too cool and placed my order. Looking forward to getting it!

I hemmed and hawed for the last few months over a new tent and had finally decided to order a Moment when this came out.

I'm glad I took as long to decide as I did because this is the perfect shelter for me.

Hopefully I'll get one of the December batch!

Henry,

What's the chance of producing a scout edition of the Notch or Moment made with polyester to bring the cost down like SMD did with their new Trekker/Scout tent? For scouts the Moment would be better since few of them have or use trekking poles. What would be best is a Moment that is completely double-wall like the Notch, even if the inner isn't removable.

I doubt the price difference would be that great unless it's made overseas like the Trekker.

I just got a notification that a package has been scanned for shipment from TarpTent! Can't wait to get it!

Henry...when are you going to post a setup video? I am very curious to see that.

"when are you going to post a setup video?"
it's up now

Notch video

Franco

That damned mp4 foremat refuses to run with IE9 !

Is that before or after Lion ?
(just kidding . I am on 8.0 )
Have you tried FireFox?
Franco

No. I'm just not willing to add another browser to be able to watch Henry's videos.

I'm sure I'm not the only person using IE9 with Windows. Henry says there is something about IE9 that "breaks" the video; apparently IE8 and earlier work fine with .mp4

Oh well.......

Edited by wandering_bob on 12/14/2011 22:24:30 MST.

Bob,

Try "compatibility view" in ie9. It should work that way. Or just install Chrome or Firefox -- either one is better than ie9.

-H

+1000 COMPATIBILITY VIEW

That did it. Now the .mp4 videos run perfectly under IE9.

Thanks, Henry.


Tell your "cheap actor" not to quit his day job!

I'd think a version with a Tyvek inner might be an interesting option.

Overall though.... this is my favorite 1 person design (Notch). I'm tempted to sell my Sublite and a couple other items and buy one.

The 4oz pole set for the Notch, how big folded are they, any video/photos of this?

Same folded length (16") as the rest of the Notch.

-H

I see its only got 4 attachment points and 2 of them are quite a steep angle so any strong wind would have a fair chance to pull pegs out of the ground.
Are there other attachment points, for guy lines, to pitch further out for additional pegs and shallower angles at the peg-ground?

Thanks Henry. How do you do that trick of adjusting the height of the folding poles to get a lower-to-ground pitch like you showed in the video using the hiking poles? Its not ram them into the ground deeper is it? :)

The Notch (especially after having watched the setup in the video) is a thing of beauty!

One way is to dig a shallow hole under each pole and set the butts in the holes, thereby lowering the canopy while still maintaining its tension.

Bob, yes digging some holes will lower the poles obviously but that will slacken the tension unless you get outside of the tent to then retension surely? Did I miss from the setup video how you lower the poles and not move the pegs to compensate?

I'm impressed with the weight and simplicity of the design.

Bump.

I scrowled up and seen basically the same question asked and answered

" > Are there guy loops on top of the poles? Might be worthwhile.

Not directly but it's easy to tie off to the interior apex loops that connect the interior or just a loop over the top of your poles. Easy mod if you want us to add more direct loops."

So I'm not totally sure I understand but basically there are loops on the inside for holding around the top of the poles, these are inside but could be a basis for adding some guys. Yes, external loops would be a good idea to add some guys. I'm speaking from real experience there, 4 pegs with 2 of them at such a steep angle will not survive the windiest conditions. All my last tents had 6 attachments including two long guys to get shallow angles. The pegs at the foot/head end are steep angle already. For a quick pitch in rain or when its not windy, 4 pegs is perfectly ok but for when pitching to survive windier, you'd have to add guys.

I know there have been posting over in outdoorsmagic of a Moment not surviving whilst a Scarp did survice due to the guys.

Edited by nigelhealy on 01/08/2012 21:23:36 MST.

Hi Nigel,

Sorry for the delay. This thread is in a strange location and I don't see it without explicitly checking a forum I would not otherwise check. Anyway, with regard to Notch vs Moment/Scarp tensioning I think the thing to understand is that any arch pole supported shelter has no explicit transverse support other than inherent pole stiffness. A Moment or Scarp will certainly handle strong winds parallel to the arch plane if you use the arch sleeve pullouts to stabilize the arch and prevent deflection. I haven't read the report you reference on OutdoorsMagic to the Moment vs Scarp but I'm guessing that the Moment problem was due to not using the arch sleeve pullouts.

A Notch (or comparable vertical pole support design) is inherently side stabilized. The side stakes are all in the same plane as the vertical trekking poles. There is always the worry that your stakes will pull out so, yes, more stakes is better than fewer stakes. Easy for us--just ask--to add additional pullouts near the apex or anywhere along the door zipper edge. It's also pretty easy to attach more cording and stakes to the end carbon fiber supports.

Re: pole height, the Notch is pretty flexible with regard to settings for pole height. Adjustable poles are best. Taller settings (~115cm) bring your fly edge up off the ground whereas lower poles (~110 cm) bring the fly edge down closer to ground. In my experience, a standard trekking pole handle sinks very little (and it it does just boost the pole from inside to compensate). A skinny pole (such as the aluminum substitute pole we offer) will sink in loose soil so the solution is to spread the load via a flat piece of plastic or rock you find at your campsite. You can also dig a hole if you want to lower a fixed length pole.

-H

Edited by 07100 on 01/09/2012 19:53:44 MST.

Thanks Henry for replying.

So I'm not a tent designer, I think I get it, the pole is pretty much pointing up and you got triangles in 3 directions and the mirror on the opposite for stability in all directions.

The issue is hence the steepness of the angles, of the cords to the ground at the peg, the only answer there is some guys, much further out, to shallow the angle.

I'd prefer it if a standard feature for such loops on the outside, partly so any future owners can be giving feedback back to you the designer.

The other issue, I think for all/most of the Tarptents is the insulation effect of mesh inner. My immediate need is to solve a "too warm" issue and condensation issue of a tent which has only mesh on one side and half-way up so its hard to get a thru-breeze and in sun its too warm, the Tarptents won't suffer that problem! The opposite however, all-mesh in cold conditions is going to let any breeze through to the sleeping bag. What is the solution there, a conversion for winter, some clippable or pull-down more solid material. Personal customization or some option from the designer? Mesh, if anything, is heavier than a thin windproof material?

Based on what I've seen now I'm giving serious consideration to purchase, to complement an existing shelter, many of my questions are related to stretching to become my only shelter.

Sorry for the delay. This thread is in a strange location and I don't see it without explicitly checking a forum I would not otherwise check.

Henry, if you want to keep up with a certain thread's successive comments, just go to the top of the page, next to the title of the thread, and click, "Watch This Thread" and you will get email updates on whatever follows.

> The other issue, I think for all/most of the Tarptents is the insulation effect of mesh inner. My immediate need is to solve a "too warm" issue and condensation issue of a tent which has only mesh on one side and half-way up so its hard to get a thru-breeze and in sun its too warm, the Tarptents won't suffer that problem! The opposite however, all-mesh in cold conditions is going to let any breeze through to the sleeping bag. What is the solution there, a conversion for winter, some clippable or pull-down more solid material. Personal customization or some option from the designer? Mesh, if anything, is heavier than a thin windproof material?

It's likely we're going to offer a partially solid fabric interior option that stops any direct wind coming under the fly at sleeping level but leaves the upper mesh as is for venting and views, especially when used without the fly. That's a likely latter part of Feb thing. You would certainly gain warmth at some cost to cooling in hot weather but it's a better option for shoulder season/wet weather/general "UK" type of weather.

-H

Make it as an option Henry and you use the same outer. A customer could own both and extend the usability of the tent deep into fall/early spring and you would cover the people who hike in dry areas worried about blowing dust too. You could sell two different inners and have another profit item without having to do too much extra design work or inventory carrying cost.

Seems like a smart move.

so how will that partially solid fabric work? Panels that snap up or down from the inside to tune from the inside for warmer/cooler, or a different inner option altogether? My suggestion is the former, its more flexible, if its not adding much weight. Because its not having to meet fully the mesh, it only needs a few attachment points to have the desired effect, so about 100g overall?

A more creative approach is to attach such from beneath the bathtub on the outside and be a fully removable skirt, then its something the owner can leave home and have no weight penalty when not used, need to think about how it gets along with the doors.

A problem with the "'add on " panels could be noise, somewhat similar to flapping fly panels but closer to you..
(not that I know it will happen for sure but that is what I see in my mind)

Had to get up at around 1PM last night out (New Year's Day) just to pull my Moment taut because of a couple of panels flapping in the wind.
Much less noise than the wind itself, but annoying.
If nothing else I had a good view of the Milky Way and a pee and went back to sleep.
So flapping panels are not my favourite thing...
Franco

Very good point Franco, so really you're talking an alternative inner part-solid, or a weighty velcro all around?

Well Henry can do whatever he likes do do with it, he usually does pick the best solution (you should have seen the many SS prototypes....)
I did think of Velcro but not that good of a solution when one side is exposed and yes sort of heavy.
My suggestion was a two inner version similar to the Scarp but maybe with a bit more mesh on the fabric one .
BTW, I set one up today.
Nice.
Franco
BTW, I re-read some of this thread . Thanks for the comments about Pip , I still miss her.
Today I was seam sealing a couple of tents and of course Lucy (Pip's mum) had to go inside to have a look .
Pip loved playing with my tents.

One of the reasons I (and quite a few others, it seems) asked for a solid inner was the weight savings, besides protection from condensation and blowing dust and warmth. Netting is quite heavy for what it does. A separate, solid inner would lighter than a fully mesh one.

The white inner /liner fabric used by TT is marginally heavier than the TT mesh.
Apart from air flow, with the mesh you can leave the fly open and have a good view outside. Can't do that with the fabric.
Here is the view from the SS2 :


(you need to mentally close the mesh inner and imagine the view, but honestly it was great about 40 minutes before.)
Franco

Here's a mockup of what I'm thinking/planning for the Notch partially solid optional interior.

.

That would stop all wind/splash at sleeping level but still allow venting and views for standalone stargazging.

Re: mesh vs solid fabric weight, the mesh is 0.7oz whereas the solid fabric is 1.1 oz calendared nylon (same fabric we use now for Scarps and Rainbow/Moment liners). Don't know yet what the weight difference will be between the two interior styles but likely on the order of an ounce.

Edited by 07100 on 01/10/2012 10:15:18 MST.

I'm actually not sure you would need it, Henry. The bathtub walls on the Notch are the highest that I have seen for a shelter of that nature. What I would like to see is a full Scarp 1 type inner to use in the shoulder seasons in the Rockies.

Henry, it doesn't matter to me. I'll order either a solid or partial solid inner as soon as you put it up on the web site. Love my Notch, BTW.

The mesh roof is a drawback for me. My interest in a solid inner is for wind protection and added warmth. The mesh roof would seem to decrease warmth. From a marketing standpoint I think the Scarp-style solid inner better fills the void leftover from the mesh inner offering.

Henry, are there any plans for a solid inner option for the SS2? If so, I will take one.

I agree with Thom and David. The appeal of a solid inner is it's wind-blocking capabilities and added warmth. I think a solid inner with too much mesh would negate the desired effects. Splash is of very little concern to me...I think your previous offerings have already demonstrated that very little splash manages to get inside the sleeping compartment.

Edited by Konrad1013 on 01/10/2012 12:47:56 MST.

"Re: mesh vs solid fabric weight, the mesh is 0.7oz whereas the solid fabric is 1.1 oz calendared nylon (same fabric we use now for Scarps and Rainbow/Moment liners). Don't know yet what the weight difference will be between the two interior styles but likely on the order of an ounce."

Henry,
I think that will strike the perfect balance between weight and weather resistance. Great lookin' tent there, well done!

M

Edited by bigfoot2 on 01/10/2012 12:54:56 MST.

I've owned/used only about 5 tents, from single-skin through part-mesh lower-only through solid all-apart from some mesh, so between no inner through degrees of sold inner. I am far from expert in this, but from my experience, the issue with solid all-over is its condensation-trapping effect nearer you and it being near your wet-hating gear like your sleeping bag. My Terra Nova Laser Competition has solid roof and it does trap my own breath there on a flat roof. I had a Coleman Viper with mesh roof and it didn't have the problem also very steep outer above the mesh so nothing dripped on me from breath.

The sleeping bag should be your primary form of getting insulation and your tent your rain shelter and need for steep walls to run off any internal damp. The mesh is all about keeping insects out with the least trapping of moisture possible. My last sleeping bag investment I went for a fully windproof water-shedding outer to focus more on it being my insulation so less needed from the tent.

The bathtub is a little low but in my mind's eye, a part-solid up a degree would be an improvement, but not solid to the roof because your breath will rise, condense on the roof of the relatively less-ventilated inner, better for the mesh roof and let your breath flow to the outer.

The mockup of Henry's idea is probably an improvement but I confess I can't guess, it need some field testing or comments from those more experienced than I !

I hesitated to argue too much with Henry privately and here on the site about the 100% solid inner mesh because I didn't want to cause more discomfort all around than I so often have on the site, but the truth is, I was hoping for a fully solid inner mesh from the start. Mainly for the warmth in colder seasons. But also protect against condensation on the rainfly. The solid inner doesn't need to and shouldn't be highly water-repellant... just repellant enough to stop drips from the fly, but breathable enough that condensation can't form. I've never had condensation on my inner tent in any of my solid inner double wall tents... Hilleberg Akto, Soulo, Terra Nova Competition, The North Face Tadpole, in all kinds of weather, all year long. Part of the secret is as Hilleberg does it... keep the inner far away from the outer fabric.

Enticing as talk of stargazing views out of the door are, the protection is more important for me. I can just leave the door open if the stars are out... since it doesn't rain then!

Henry, I like your design as is, for all of your stated reasons. I have a Fly Creek 1 with a half-solid half mesh interior (perhaps a bit less solid than your design) and it works great for wind/warmth and the mesh has kept any condensation that I might have out of the inner tent. Also--this is purely intuitive--doesn't mesh help with condensation somewhat? Warm breath out of the inner to the outer where hopefully it disperses.

"Also--this is purely intuitive--doesn't mesh help with condensation somewhat? Warm breath out of the inner to the outer where hopefully it disperses."

Yes but in high humidity or in cases of high condensation, a breathable fabric inner tent will prevent the drops from falling on you.

Right and this is what got others direct me to look at Tarptent, the condensation problem.

You're going to get damp on the outer sheet from ambient high humidity, the answer there is steep tent wall angles and plenty of ventilation. The Notch appears to have all that when inclusive of the poles at the higher position. This runs down to the outside of the inner.

"Yes but in high humidity or in cases of high condensation, a breathable fabric inner tent will prevent the drops from falling on you."

You can certainly place a breathable low HH inner overhead to catch any drops from the outside but it will also form a smaller, lower ambient-airflow, higher-humidity area, which be also suffering from condensation, from which it runs down to inside and pools on your gear. Due to little humidity pressure, I don't think any breathability of the inner fabric will help evaporation it will simply stay there til sun evaporates it.

So what is the best approach to condensation? The Notch has a flat section above and then steep sides, you could certainly consider a solid top but then anything dropping on it will run down to.... any mesh at the sides so you quickly end up with a solid-everything except for the down-facing ends argument, which is what my TN LC has. The TN LC has shallower angles, I know that condensation just stays there til it drops on the inner, my hope is a steeper-walled outer will let it run down?

"Hilleberg Akto, Soulo, Terra Nova Competition, The North Face Tadpole, in all kinds of weather, all year long. Part of the secret is as Hilleberg does it... keep the inner far away from the outer fabric."

Own the Laser Comp - for sure, a nearly-all-solid-inner helps raise the temperature inside, but the LC the inner and outer are not massively far apart and there are long unsupported areas and wind forces the outer to the inner as well as a twang which flicks any water inside. The general geometry of the LC is similar to the Scarp1 and its got shallower slopes and a solid inner.
Hasn't Henry showed here that the Notch is 3 season and the Scarp 4 and so make your choice?

Edited by nigelhealy on 01/16/2012 12:32:27 MST.

Purely theoretical just from photos....

Did the math, the Notch's walls are 31.3 degs to the horizontal going parallel to sleeper, and the sides which aren't really over the sleeper, at a much steeper 65degs.
Compare to say the Scarp1 the slope is shallower at 22degs.

I don't think 31degs is steep enough is it for condensation to run down under gravity?

Compare to say the Contrail, it does have a gentler slope towards the feet but the bulk of the fabric over the sleeper is at a little below 51degs probably 45degs so steeper than the Notch.

So from a math perspective, the Notch isn't really going to be able to handle condensation *if* it forms like say a Control would and the Scarp handles it via a solid inner which will shed any that drops on whilst the Notch can't. Also, you can't reach from your sleeping bag to soak+wring any forming. With the Notch you'd have to get out of the inner and reach around.

So having done that comparison on *if* condensation forms, the issue is *will* it form with such an open high-edge design? My TN LC I was very disappointed despite pulling all the elasticated attachment points out tight to raise them higher off the ground, to have a soaked outer which it weren't for the inner would have dripped more on me. The TN LC has sides 28.6degs to horizontal so only 2.7degs shallower than the Notch so in similar conditions I do have a concern the Notch WILL be dripping condensation on the inside.

>..and the Scarp handles it via a solid inner which will shed any that drops on whilst the Notch can't.

I own a Scarp 2 with a mesh inner. As the condensation builds up, the droplets become heavier and at some point they start to glide down along the fly. Sure, some water still stays there before there is a chance for it to dry out, or before I shake it off, or wipe it with a cloth. But even if I give a gentle shake to the fly, it just makes the droplets easier to glide.

It did drip on the inner (a bit) during very heavy rain and during hail, that is when the fly was fluttering. Mesh held the droplets outside except for the 'misting'.

So mesh takes a drop of water and holds it outside? I've seen them run down vertical mesh but I'm frankly surprised it will hold outside of more horizontal mesh.

I was looking more at the photo those two vents where the poles go in the Notch simply don't have equivalents in say the Scarp or the TN LC. So Notch has a tad more airflow up by the roof line than the Scarp.

I guess the mesh has some kind of DWR treatment. My tent is relatively new, just about 20 nights, maybe later the mesh will behave differently.
Some amount of water didn't roll down and looked like some kind of film stretched in the mesh openings. I removed it by touching it with a cotton handkerchief. But nothing had dripped on my sleeping bag.

Nah. With condensation and high winds I have experienced droplets hitting the mesh and dispersing through as a spray.

Edited by FamilyGuy on 01/16/2012 19:44:40 MST.

I really enjoy my Scarp 1 and would look forward to having a similar, or partial, inner liner on the Notch.

Edited by Laps on 01/18/2012 14:09:54 MST.

So I've never owned a fully-mesh inner so I spent last week+ searching BPL and other forums to figure out what it would be like. As far as I can tell it is a GOOD thing in warm climates, but a BAD thing in cold climates. A solid inner is barely any weight difference, according to some, a slightly heavier according to others, depends on the fabric. When you look at the added weight, and the quoted temperature increase inside/outside its a worthwhile weight/benefit to have solid inner, vs say a warmer sleeping system.

I also think I know why my TN LC was so damp it had no venting on the outer near the roof. I see the Scarp has these and the Notch does too. A few tents back I had a Coleman Viper and it had mesh with a flap cover on a single-hoop and it didn't suffer damp as much as the TN LC.

So, without buying/trying, as far as I can tell, making a solid inner option, inclusive of the roof, like the Scarp would be a good option to take the Notch down into cooler conditions with a good weight penalty relative to a heavier sleeping bag.

Any news on a solid inner option for Tarptent Notch?

For colder situations.

Also a solid including the overhead with some high-sided side mesh plus a velcro roll-back to expose mesh at the ends.

This really a nice design. The two vestibules, reduced condensation, and option to set up fly first in storms makes it tempting to get in lieu of The One which I have otherwise been happy with. But I have as yet not seen any field reports. I know what month it is, barely, but has anybody south of the equator or on the west coast taken this out for a test drive?

Yes David Ure stated on 2/4 he has

http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/forums/thread_display.html?forum_thread_id=59173

"The Notch has proven to be the idea shelter for me for 3 season treks. There are no issues with the pegs you mention Nigel - for all intents and purposes, this is a 2 skin Moment (a little larger overall). You can also pitch with the fly almost to the ground so breezes can be minimized.

The tent is bloody brilliant."

Well "bloody brilliant" is what I look for. Thanks.

Hot off the press..
first pic of the "solid" inner :




It will be ready in about 3 weeks .
About 1.8oz/50g heavier .
(sorry, that was for the sample using heavier fabric. The real difference will be less)
Franco

Edited by Franco on 02/22/2012 18:29:20 MST.

Mmmmm.... Tasty

Now I'm even MORE tempted to pick up a Notch. Can anyone make comparisons vs the duomid? Obviously there is less space, but I'm curious about wind-worthiness.

Yes, shipping by mid March. Actual weight difference is/will be just about 1 ounce/30g. This sample interior weight is skewed because we used standard 1-ounce mesh not the 0.7-mesh we will use for production (and use now for the regular mesh interior).

This is the same calendared, windproof, highly water resistant nylon we use in the Scarp. It's noticeably warmer in this interior when the wind is blowing. The other upsides are that you can definitely leave one or both vestibules fully open in the rain without fear of splash or runoff entering the interior and this is a much better interior for blowing dust environments.

-H

Without the inner tent, the Notch has more usable room than the DuoMid.

It also sets up rock solid, like the DuoMid.

OOh. This makes the Notch even more useful. I assume the ordering online will be like for the Scarp you can buy mesh / solid / both inners?

Now the concern still in my mind, noting I am limited by experience, that I've only ever used dual-skin UK type tents, is the degree of insulation you get from all that mesh in the upper half of the inner. I assume if I can see through it water from condensation can pass through it and heat from the person inside will pass easily through it. There does need to be some mesh to keep condensation from the human causes down.

Also, the new solid inner design, what is happening at the ends obscured in the photo? Are the ends solid, mesh or solid which rolls+velcros back revealing mesh? My preference is as much flexibility as possible, I much prefer to own 1 shelter and just tune it at pitch time to the conditions. I like the way the Notch can be pitched "high" for airy or "low" for windy/cold so some tuning of roll-away solid to reveal mesh helps enormously.

> I assume the ordering online will be like for the Scarp you can buy mesh / solid / both inners?

Yes.

> what is happening at the ends obscured in the photo? Are the ends solid, mesh or solid which rolls+velcros back revealing mesh?

Solid fabric. The end venting will still come from the fly end vents if you need it. You can certainly leave the fly end vents open and not worry about any wind hitting your head or any rain blowing in through the vents and finding the inside of the compartment.

Very nce! I'll definitely order one for my Notch. Perfect for the rainy weather here in Arkansas and when I go west to New Mexico this summer.

I can't tell from the schematics http://tarptent.com/photos/nt_dimensions.png

Will a package this size fit in the porch? My folding bike...

585mm high x 545mm long x 270mm wide (22.2" x 21.5" x 10.6"). I think it will fit as the porch at its deepest is 21" so a package 10.6" deep in a porch 108" wide will be only a little less deep at 10" from the porch centerline. It should fit comfortably.

Do you have a Minimal Brompton ?
If so it should fit.


The main box is set at 585H and at 270 from the pole but is 580 L
Given that the top of the bike folded does not reach 270cm out at the top outside corners (away from the pole) you should have a spare cm.
I would put a cloth over the folded handlebar
Note that a 72"x20" mat will fit (with extra room lengthwise) but a 25" wide will not in this configuration.
(the pole is set slightly inward...)
Franco

BTW my bike does not fit

Yes a Brompton. Its my fave bike-touring-camping bike as I can use bus/train and get more variety in the trip (also don't own a car, something has to pay for all this outdoor kit!)

Thanks Franco for creating virtual Brompton. Yes I bag it to protect from condensation and any sharp corners of the flysheet. Here is mine squeezing into the Laser Comp I'm thinking of migrating to Notch (two vestibules being of the most interest, followed by more headroom for long-nights)

http://s334.photobucket.com/albums/m421/NigelHealy/Brompton/Lakes%20Sept%2011/?action=view&current=DSCN4163.mp4

Currently I have to push the bike to the side to escape the tent, in a Notch I can put Brompton upwind side and cook downwind side.

Also the Notch's packed size interests me, it looks smaller than the Laser Comp which = small bag = less aero drag. Here's my ideal packing volume

http://i334.photobucket.com/albums/m421/NigelHealy/Brompton/Lakes%20April%2008/DSC00286.jpg

and another shot of bike in tent to show the tight porch space issue
http://s334.photobucket.com/albums/m421/NigelHealy/Brompton/Lakes%20April%2008/?action=view&current=DSC00292.jpg

http://i334.photobucket.com/albums/m421/NigelHealy/Brompton/Lakes%20April%2008/DSC00293.jpg

Oh... and a reminder why bike inside your tent is preferred

http://s334.photobucket.com/albums/m421/NigelHealy/Brompton/Lakes%20Sept%2011/?action=view&current=DSCN4168.mp4

Yes , having one side for the bike and paniers will be handy...
As I suspected the top should not be a problem at all particularly having the saddle on the fly side.
Franco

I'm a bit surprised the ceiling is mesh rather than solid.

I'm waiting to buy an SS2 when it comes with a solid inner option, and will be disappointed if the ceiling isn't solid. I hope its like the Scarp with just a little mesh on the upper sides.

Just comparing the schematics to tents I've slept in, one possible criticism? There is only 7 inch to the side of a typical 7" mat so not much space inside the inner? Like the proportion of porch vs inner is a tad too much towards the porch and not enough to the inner? A few inch wider would help. I know Franco has made some videos but its not clear to me can you make it wider than 34"?

See the relavent video on the Notch here
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=SIt1Oezq2GQ#t=658s

Relative to my Laser Comp (an imperfect tent but one I can extrapolate from) it has 37" at its widest point and I know inside I use all that width putting my bike pannier at the widest place. The Notch's widest point is 34". I'd consider the Laser Comp as narrow an inner as you'd want and still keep a reasonably tidy inner org.

I'd not want to put stuff at the foot/head end and risk blocking the vent? (but with a solid inner there's nothing to block).

Assumption is slugs crawl all over anything in the porch particularly when its wet.

Edited by nigelhealy on 02/22/2012 23:28:35 MST.

Nigel,

Everything is a tradeoff and there's no such thing as a perfect shelter. Not to be rude but the Notch is what it is and it's probably not the right shelter for you.

-H

The sleeping area isn't narrow for me and I am 6'1" and 215 with wide shoulders. Is it huge? No. Similar at the ends to say, an MSR Hubba, but very quickly noticeably wider. I do not touch the sides (note: the bathtub floor is nicely tall). Without the inner, it would easily sleep two - remember that there are two vestibules here with the inner in place. Also remember it weighs 24oz on my scale without pegs. With pegs it is 26oz on the nose.

I was asking a question. Can the poles be pulled further out and make the inner wider? The high bathtub would allow such, also with the solid inner option? If using shorter poles would it work? I guess to a degree, yes, but if the poles move too far off vertical they risk sliding and tent collapse, so what is realistic? I'm only talking a few inches.

Franco, not sure which tent it was, showed moving the pole further in if required to make the porch larger, and also shows say on the Contrail pushing the pole quite to one side, so the same question on the Notch, widening the distance between pools at the ground level, lowering the top slightly so the sides have the give to move wider, spreading the bathtub wider, how far does this still work still as a stable shelter?

Might end up the right shelter for me :)

Nigel
You need to send me that bike so that I can take pics of it with it inside.
I passed a guy on one of them a few days ago, he had large paniers too and was comfortably doing 20KMPH .
(mind you , I do about 15 km at a time, he was obviously touring...)
Kind of odd me laying on the ground and him perched on top of that...
Anyway I understand what you are asking and will test that soon
Franco

added
Which bike..
Oh dear, you have a problem...
still waiting for my morning coffee and the sun to come around.
Franco

Edited by Franco on 02/23/2012 15:54:38 MST.

Which bike. The one which would be tugging a Notch has the rack, which could fit easily a Scarp2 if I wanted.

http://i334.photobucket.com/albums/m421/NigelHealy/Brompton/IMG_0533.jpg

Edited by nigelhealy on 02/23/2012 15:45:55 MST.

Nigel - the bathtub floor attaches to the bottom of the trekking poles to 'pull out' the inner floor. You could angle the poles inward but you would severely limit space within the inner tent. Pulling them out wider won't increase the width of the inner appreciably because of the aforementioned attachements, at least from the perspective of maximizing the height of the bathtub walls.

for Nigel only)
OK , I have taken some pics...
First this is what it looks like in standard mode,72x20 mat :


your bike and panniers will fit on the other side.
Now, if you must..., you can forsake bathtub protection in the center (the bit furthest away from the fly ) and gain an extra 3" (so to 37") by dropping the inner a bit (use loops to extend the net to clip distance and by adding a loop to the widest point of the floor on one side so that with a peg in there it will stay out.
(I used a weight on top to simulate that.)
And this is what it looks like open and shut...



Franco
from Tarptent Downunder

Or maybe buy a Tarptent Stratosphire 1?

Wow Franco thankyou for putting the effort in to try and the photos. I'm not sure if the right picture matches the words but I think I understand. The first picture where you have it pulled somewhat and still the bathtub quite high looks a quite workable solution for many who want to have some gear inside the inner. The subsequent photo with the bathtub practically to the ground looks a bit too far to be a workable system, and I suspect will just accelerate tent wear.

Also the Notch, as I'm only a little taller than you Franco, has a lot of room at the ends which probably is the best answer but having a bit more room at the side too like you show is probably sufficient for most people with similar wish to have more gear inside the inner. I compare my height, my pannier size, and the schematics and I think putting a pannier at head or foot will be the likely best option. The pannier at its widest point is 18" wide - the Notch is 20" at the end so that fits, the pannier's height is 13" and the Notch straight up from where the floor slopes up is 19" tall so there's plenty of height, and the depth, the encroachment into the sleeping area is about 11" so leaving about 73" (108-12-12-11=73) left to sleep in. I'm about 68" so 5" left. So it all works out in the length. Apart from tall people, that is likely what most people will do but to have items overnight close to hand I think also many will stretch the width as you show.

Yes, I was also thinking about SS1. I also looked the Contrail which has a lot of room and is more summer tent. The Notch though has small packed size and to a cyclist that = smaller pannier = more aerodynamic. I'm aspiring to fitting all in 16L which would be incredible. Cyclists less bothered about weight. Backpackers more bothered about weight. Generally, smaller = lighter so very common interests.

So my sleeping mat, I ordered as they were cheap, a Neoair Short which is 47" so to get to 68" just needs a bit of foam like sitmats.

As to packed size, the Notch's volume is 41x9cm = 2.6L. Neoair Small = 1.5L. Stove (Jetboil Sol Ti) = 1.3L, my sleeping bag (PHD Minim 300) is about 5L, so my shelter, sleeping and cooking is 10.4L

Don't be modest Henry... this tent is perfect! It isn't a gigantic tent by design. If you want room to roam get the Rainbow but the Notch is the perfect design for my needs.

I see the Notch solid inner option is now on the TT's website for ordering.

Has anyone got one yet (with the part-sold inner) and if any real-life testing?

I had not enough patience to wait for real springtime, so the morning after my first night in Notch was
like that.
At night, it was about -10C or a bit lower. Snow was about 30 cm (1 foot) deep, so I had a bit of digging using my CCF seat-pad (yellow thingy) as a shovel.
On the third (last) night there was about of 1 m (3-4 feet) of snow, and my 'shovel' was not up to the task. So I just had compacted the snow with my feet and used twigs instead of stakes. Here is a picture of the third morning.

Edited by ssv310 on 03/19/2012 02:50:23 MDT.

My solid inner is on its way, will arrive on tomorrow.

that is a very good looking tent henry/franco...

Larry please do post on your experiences with the solid inner.

Has anyone pitched in strong winds yet? The steepness of the angle at porch and the resulting upwards force on the peg there is something, on paper, which worries me. I know there are guys from the top of the poles to keep the tent on the ground but will the porch stay in place?

I own one tent, a Tera Nova Laser Competition, about 1Kg. Its two main problems are flappiness from the long unsupported flysheet between the central pols and the ends towards the sides (how can you tension a curve? You can't!), and complete lack of fly ventilation at the roofline (combined with shallow angle of the fly is a condensation issue the solid inner mostly solves). The tent though has never failed. I'm currently considering two options, one is to consider the Notch as warmer-weather tent only and keep my TN LC for colder weather, and so really allow the inner to be mesh (its original design), or to consider it for all year and sell my TN LC and then either go with a Notch only with solid inner or with both solid and mesh inners.

My sleeping bag system, I extended it recently down to -20C but with a bag weight increase to 1.4Kg.

A fully solid inner is of more interest than the partially solid that has been selected. The more solid the greater the temp delta from outside and so the lighter the sleeping bag or the lower the temps for a given pack weight.

I don't need to make any decision til June so looking at user reviews. I have a little concern with the inner being too narrow and a SS1 fallback but SS1 doesn't offer any solid inner so less of an option in colder conditions.

Hi Nigel,

The SS1 will have a solid inner much the same as the Notch as an extra.

Cheers,

Stephen

p.s. I have ordered an SS1 myself.

Stephen thanks for that, I'd missed that news!

SS1 is much less of a compromise on space and not a whole lot more weight or cost. I know many are interested in the Notch to minimize pitch footprint space for confined areas but I've never had that problem. This was my tent BEFORE my TN LC

http://i334.photobucket.com/albums/m421/NigelHealy/Brompton/Lakes%20March%2008/DSC00244.jpg
with vast space
http://i334.photobucket.com/albums/m421/NigelHealy/Brompton/Lakes%20March%2008/DSC00249.jpg

I then had an epiphany and realized I wanted to go lightweight and into colder temps and I'm still on that journey. My foot has a problem which is tending to keep my hiking to short and not carrying camping so its been mostly bike-camping (for which you can carry a huge tent if you want), but I'm thinking that is footwear cause so trying some different shoes out and hope to get back to backpacking light by autumn. So no hurry to buy a Notch at the moment.

Hi Nigel,

Thats a shame about your foot, hope it works out ok.

The Ss1 arrived today and its very nice, there is absolutley loads of space.

I will be trying it out this weekend on my first US trip.

Cheers,

Stephen

In case a trekking pole is broken or lost in a creek crossing on a long solo hike, is it feasible to set up Notch with only one pole?

good question. If you're worried about broken/lost trekking pole you can always buy the optional pole kit for the Notch, bring one of the two adds 2oz and folds no bigger than the Notch when packed. Such poles I would think could also possibly break but be an easier repaired with one of those metal sleeve placed over the break.

I don't know the answer but I'm thinking its going to a limitation exercise like push the remaining pole up higher, pull out the pegs further apart away from the remaining pole and accept some sag in places, possible get some use from any longer section of your broken pole, you'll probably be fine if not too windy.

I'm sure if you wait long enough Franco will have a video/photo for you!

If you are in forest and have knife then cut some wood to length? Use some clothing to round out the sharpness of the wood to protect tent? Or, feed guy through roof of tent and tie between trees??? Or, use existing guy, instead of peg to ground tie at height to tree to pull up??

Henry is showing as closed for a long weekend at the moment.

Edited by nigelhealy on 04/01/2012 00:03:15 MDT.

If the substitute piece of wood is less than 1-1.5" thick, I would not bother putting clothing between it and the tent. The place with a grommet for a pole is made of much more durable stuff than silnylon.

if you have knife then you can ensure its thickness and shape at the wood-fly contact. My knife can do wood, metal, has a small file to shape. Camp DIY.

I'd say the most difficult part is finding a piece thick enough and straight enough, these usually contradictory tree growth, you can can use a much thicker bent piece and arch it away from the inner but it will tend to rotate, but again, use what you have to keep it in place, some guy and whatever remains of the broken pole.

"Where's there a will there's a way".

It is much easier to construct a straight-ish peice from wood than say other tent designs using specialist hoops, and borrows from tarp and hammock ideas.

The more challenging scenario is no wood, in wind, snow loading to resolve. Actually that is one reason to buy the TT poleset, just in case.

In UK, due to sheep, below treeline is still usually tree-less.

Hi
for your feet problem,have you ever tried orthopedic sole???it did wonders for my wife.She wasn't able to walk more than 10km a day,even on easy surface.Now she can walk 30 km with 3000ft elevation!!

it doesn't seem to be the sole of the shoe because Keen sandals are fairly harsh its the top of the shoe which is forcing pain, so i think its a shoe fit problem. The bone has increase in size around a fracture and simply being pained by the constraint of the too-tight shoe.

I've recently got some Inov8 Roclite 315 and going up 1/2 size and the pliable upper seems to have solved the problem, which in my mind is basically a solid-upper equivalent of Keen sandals (but I'm sure there's much to it).

The issue is only at the >10 mile /day type range, I walked back from the airport Friday, 6 miles on road, no problem. (why would anyone pay a taxi $24 when you can walk and spend that $ on gear :) )

I also (back to Notch) don't walk with poles, I bought one when I broke my foot to use as weight-reducing stick and once the foot got better dont use the stick, but I'm thinking i might move to trekker poles for trail walking to reduce the weight of the feet via arms pushing down.

Between lowering my own body mass, lowering the pack weight (e.g. Notch 0.7Kg), better fitting shoes, and some trekking poles, I might get back to what i used to be able to do 10 years ago, I could do 20miles/day for days.

This is the only problem, the insides of me are strong, currently averaging 350miles and 30,000ft of climbing per week on a bike.

FYI the incident which broke my foot was biking up a very steep hill, my right foot slipped off the pedal and the weight (I was having to stand on the pedals and pull handlebars to get the force) of my left foot caused the cranks to rotate fast and wack the top of the foot, even though wearing stiff hiking boots the pedal managed to break bones on upper half. That break healed bad. The damage before that a car came round a corner quick and I had to jump from the road and landed bad on the sidewalk and that sprained the ankle but that healed. Then before that I was hiking in mountains and I dislodged a boulder and it chased me down the mountain and I jumped out of its way and fell 100ft, and the time before...... basically I should have been killed at least 5 times just haven't yet!

So.... after extensive research and thinking, I ordered a Notch with the solid inner option. Ordered with poles to use for biking, and next task is find some trekking poles to use for walking. Actually the main thing which decided me was some new shoes, i solved a foot pain problem this last few weeks.

I am visiting UK in September, I intend to use the Notch in UK then and bring back to US my UK PHD sleeping bags then use the Notch in California.

Thanks in particular to Franco, the videos, photos and extensive email replies absolutely dwarfs the relatively little information on tarptent.com

So I've watched the video of Henry lowering the poles from the recommended 110cm-115cm to lower the fly for windier weather, does anyone know what is the SHORTEST length one should seek from a trekking pole to allow this lowering? Just from looking at Henry lower the pole it looks like say 10cm lowering? So would be 100cm short pole height?

I have fixed poles at 120cm that can partially collapse to about 105cm. I found that at 105cm it is difficult for me to get a taught ridge line between the poles unless I pitch the vestibules at a steeper angle - even then it's not as taught. 110cm seems to be the lowest I can go. I ended up drilling some holes in my pole handles that allow 110 and 115 stopping points. Works great so far.

I spent three days over spring break in heavy rain. One night it poured for four hours with a few gusts over 50mph and I had no rain splash get inside. I did raise one of the poles to 115cm to compensate for the sagging sil-nylon. Worked perfectly and i didn't need to leave my tent.

I think I will be investing in different stakes to use at the tent ends. In wet ground (which is all I've had since receiving the Notch) the ends pull free very easily. I had to place heavy rocks on top of the end stakes after a gust pulled an end free. I'm pretty sure better stakes will resolve this - and it only happened during one of the +50mph gusts. overall I was very pleased with the tent in bad weather as well as good :-)

Jason, very valuable experiences thanks. I did get an email back from the same question to TT from Henry, which is basically yes 105cm is the minimum.

I'd not thought of deliberately pitching a little lower and then extending the pole to tension a saggy silnylon. Useful tip!

Puzzled how you make a fixed pole vary in height? What pole is that? I was thinking of the Black Diamond Distance FL pole. My body height seems to match the 120cm pole which happens to cover the range required for the Notch (20cm lower to 100cm which as you and Henry say is absolute lowest up to 115cm). So for example it can be raised to 120cm from inside to help with saggy silnylon. I am total poles newbie so to avoid a very stupid mistake on my part my plan was to pitch the Notch (I had delivered today!) in the garden, I got with TT's poles) and just experiment myself, dig some little holes in the garden to simulate a shorter pole, measure it all, then go down to REI and measure the poles to be 100% sure it will be a good fit.

Yes, different stakes, I've done that with all my shelters. I've usually used stronger longer ones for the guy lines to do the job of "tent on ground". Yes, pegs pulling out of soft ground, I was thinking of that also pre-purchase, its a problem I'm fully aware of, and I discussed in another forum.

http://www.outdoorsmagic.com/forum/forummessages/mps/UTN/52136/URN/5/dt/4/srchdte/0/cp/2/v/1/sp/

The shape of the Notch has quite a few steep angles (helpful for condensation runoff) but obviously will tend to lead to peg-pulling tendencies. Tent ends? Is that where the struts are? I have ideas of my own to figure out, give me a few trips out and I'll not be a newbie so much. I don't know much about tent peg names currently but I know what the ones I want look like, basically longer to stay in in soft ground, thicker metal for less bending when being wacked, and a rounded end to wacking hard. I've also find some pegs you have more flexibility WHERE to put them - guy pegging specifically, but some pegs you don't. The Notch's first pegs are the vestibule ones, so you can use a strong peg there and move the pegging point to get a good grounding, then rotate around so the other vestibule pegging point also has a good grounding. Then the corner struts, which unfortunatel TOUGH you have little flexibility there, so ironically some toothpick pegs can find a better place than some thicker pegs, and FINALLY the guy pegs which is where you can do some serious grounding and I'd put the most metal in the ground, possibly have to use some additinal guying points to get some symmetry of tension.

Hi Nigel,
I am pretty hard on my poles and opted for aluminum over carbon fiber. I have the BD distance poles which are similar to the distance FL without the adjustable handle. If I had known of the FLs when I bought my poles, I would have gone with them I think. The regular Distance poles collapse part way into the handle to loosen the inner wire so you can separate the 3 sections and break them down. I partially collapsed the handle at 110cm and again at 115cm and drilled a hole at each length for the locking "nub". This way it will lock into place at those lengths as well as the fully extended 120cm. It's hard to explain but I can snap a photo if it would help.

My only fear was drilling into the inner wire and cutting it. Fortunately that didn't happen. If you get the FLs though, you should be fine.

the "tent ends" I mentioned do indeed refer to the strut area. I thought the vestibule stakes would be the problem but so far they have been fine for me. Granted I have had 3 nights in the tent (well 5 if the back yard counts). I also thought about guy lines from the poles but haven't used or needed them yet.

Let me know what works for you. It'll be nice to hear from someone else with field use. I'll be out again next month for a few nights :-)

I've been searching for Alu vs Carbon views, there isn't really a consensus but I'm leaning towards Alu as cheaper and less prone to nasty breakage. Alu can be damaged too but you can bend a slight dent back and of course you've ruined a cheaper pole.

Yes, FL seems a better choice, but I only started looking recently, don't know when it came out.

Hmmm, so the Notch strut end pegs are pulling? I guess the short guys there are focusing the upwards force (longer guys = shallower angles), ISTR someone suggesting lengthening the string at the strut ends to reduce that problem? I might just play with that idea and try multiple guys. Tricky part is keeping the forces symmetric so the Notch doesn't sag. One trick is to guy the existing peg itself, place a peg further away and a short guy between the pegs? Thinking out loud so probably not intelligently.

guy lines from poles, absolutely, its your strongest attachment point for 2 reasons - you can go as far out as possible til you find a good place to peg, and the shallower angle means the peg gets less upward force. What guys would tend to do is minimize the force on the vestibule peg so it never comes out. Keeping vestibule peg in place means the Notch never "raises it knickers" to the wind. Ahead of field tests I'd default to not wanting a beefy peg on the vestibule as its one I'd catch my foot on entry/exit.

The Notch is my 6th tent I've owned but borrowed some before I bought, I've had 2 tents die old from use (the best cause), 1 tent die from it being a bad design and it would fall over and it broke itself, and I sold 1 tent as its design led to saggy bathtub so it became... a bathtub full of rain. The 5th tent has condensation issues and if the 6th tent is good then the 5th one can get sold.

Jason
Take a look at the 8" Easton.
There is a lot of difference in holding power between those and the 6" version.
BTW, they should be inserted this way:


(I mean the angle...)
Added...
To make it a bit clearer
yes if you insert an 8" peg only 4" you are using a 4" peg..
(translation: shove them pegs fully in but at aprox that angle, not straight down)

Someone else mentioned a problem having the end triangles sitting flat.
Usually that happens if the two ends are not parallel to each other.
Franco

Edited by Franco on 04/18/2012 16:51:58 MDT.

Yes, THE ANGLE, although Franco it looks a little too leaning back? Franco left enough of the peg out to show the angle but you'd never have the peg that far protruding out the ground as a whipping gust wind will flick the tent flysheet and lasso the guyline upwards a little, then if the peg head is well above the ground then the guyline will slide up the peg a little and pull on it, that then opens the hole in the ground a little and then the next gust does a little more, the peg then gets progressively more vertical and so the lasso can ride up the peg a little more each time..... and over a hour or so pull the peg out of the ground. I'd say that's a lesson learned probably day-1 of windy camping.


The challenge in the real world is also those end pegs on the Notch design have little flexibility of location, what if there is a STONE at the right spot, that is one reason you don't get the ideal peg angle. Longer guys allow more latitude to find a gap between stones which allow the angle Franco has shown. On sandy ground you can break the stone with a strong peg and problem solved but usually the peg just gets bent, or if you're lucky just blunted.

For stone, substitute some broken soil, or sodden wet ground, etc, the point being you can't always put the peg in securely on short guys. My last shelter these connections near the fly were elasticated, a quasi solution but itself not perfect as the elastic never can get as tight a pitch, so was flappy noise, a longer guy being my preferred option to experiment.

Garden test pitches won't have this problem.

I hope to get some pics of the partially-solid Notch today online, there's very few online currently.

What are those clips on the inside of the inner near the pole top for?

I seem to recall Henry saying that they are for running a line between inside the tent to give you something from which to hang stuff, especially in the absence of interior pockets. I tried them out with that purpose in my SS2 in January and found it to be of use for my flashlight. I have since installed another 2 pc setup with a line lock in the middle in the SS1 I bought from TyTy last month and will try that out the next trip it goes on...

Disclaimer: My memory may be poor on this matter.

Edited by risingsun on 04/18/2012 14:08:16 MDT.

Dan thanks, that was my guess. Is there a fave nest?

Nigel, by 'nest' do you mean a mesh hanger with which to hold stuff up above? Not for me, at least. I usually keep most of my personal items in a small silnylon drawstring bag and it's easy to just clip or tie on to wherever (or even stow it in the corner of the tent near my head).

Uploaded some pics+vids after a garden pitch

http://s334.photobucket.com/albums/m421/NigelHealy/Notch

These initial vids are focusing on the aspects which were a problem with my *last* shelter, which were porch size and headroom, it is not representative of my interest in shelters.

Thanks Franco. Those are actually the stakes i was looking at but i wasn't sure if 2" would make much difference. Sounds like maybe it does.

I should clarify that i only have this problem when the ground is soft (i.e. after heavy rain). When i've pitched with dry ground there has been no problem. i was also happy that i could stay under the fly and stick my arm out the strut end to stick the stake back into the ground when it did pop out :) in any case, with the longer stake on the two ends i think i will be fine.

so far i am really pleased with the Notch.

nice shots Nigel.

not to digress too much but what camp chair are you using? i've always been too chicken to use one with my neoair.

Its this one

http://cascadedesigns.com/therm-a-rest/seating/fast-and-light-seating/compack-chair/product

Thermarest modified the chair so you don't need to fold it back so reducing stress on the Neoair. It does though mean the seat is protruding up yer back so either bend it back down or use a short. The mat shown is Neoair Short.

I had an earlier Thermarest chair, I had to bend double inside the chair and the Neoair did NOT like that!

http://www.outdoorsmagic.com/reviews/sleeping/miscellaneous/therm-a-rest-trekker-chair-20/20444.html

Very fast pitch and so simple. Only "trick" is to not make too tight the head-tail end too early. That's different from my last tent where I had to get that axis tight first.

Now I've pitched the Notch myself, the pegs are in this order
- head
- tail
- vestibule 1
- vestibule 2

So the pegs which you can move around the most flexibly are the head-tail ends, because the tent isn't pitched so you can put head in first moving around freely til its secure (e.g. avoiding rocks), then the tail peg can rotate around the head til its secure, these would hence be the ones you can focus longer pegs as you can move around.

The pegs on the vestibules you have a smaller degree of flexibility, starting from furthest out and going slightly inwards as required, these would be best shorter pegs such as those supplied.

Contrast the 4 pegs with my last tent, admittedly with 4 guys, was 12 pegs, and I'd use Ti toothpicks for all but 4.

4 pegs total.... hmmmm, seems very few..... I don't think the Notch is the one you'd use in very windy conditions using the factory-defaults. I'm in email contact with TT to see if there are extra guying options. Given the head/tail can be made secure by luxury of being 1st and 2nd pegging points, the logical extra guying points should be near the apex of the top of the poles, to relief force on the 3rd/4th pegs. These 5th & 6th pegging points can have quite long guys and enormous flexibility. Then I think it would be very secure.

The SS1 from the video seems totally different pegging sequence? Begins with the vestibule pegs it seems?

The Notch in the garden, the supplied Easton poles bend before the pegs move. I try to show that in one of the vids.

Had email chat with TT and I'm going to fit some guy attachments near the pole apex. I reckon that will be all that is needed to allow both more resilience to wind, idiosyncronies of the campsite, and flexibility to unpeg and fully open the vestibule for cooling / views.

Great customer service, arrived a day later.

Edited by nigelhealy on 04/21/2012 14:50:50 MDT.

Photos and vids showing Scarp compared to Notch
http://s334.photobucket.com/albums/m421/NigelHealy/Notch%20vs%20Scarp/

The video showing close to completion of the Notch bomproof project.

http://s334.photobucket.com/albums/m421/NigelHealy/Notch%20vs%20Scarp/?action=view&current=MVI_1971.mp4

Very interesting Nigel. I did a similar thing with the front pole of my Squall and also added a couple of extra guylines at the rear. I've never been able to understand why this isn't std on TTents, but I am sure Franco will have an answer :)).

Same reason why cars don't come with snow tyres or tow bars...

To elaborate a bit on that...
TT shelters are designed to be a lightweight easy to set up solution that is also good value for money.
Some tent users notoriously like to customise their tent and so they do (I do...)
Usually we believe that the way we do it works best and often does(well at least for self) , but that is just the same as many like to customise their car or bike.
Stakes, guylines, groundsheets are all very much a personal choice.
TT does include the minimum amount of stakes required but it is no secret that no stake will work best in every situation, for example I usually have three or four types (some of each) on every trip.
All tents should have guylines attached so folk should add the type they like.
Some will go for the reflective type, others for the lightest and other still for the cheapest or whatever happens to be that they like.
And that is why often enough people will comment on how they substituted stock stakes and or guylines for something else ( by...I saved 1.7 oz !!!!)
(a good example,right now, is the comment from David Goldberg in the Hilleberg tent thread in the gear forum,second page)
Anyway it is a bit difficult for a manufacturer to balance between "not enough" and "feature creep".

Franco

Edited by Franco on 05/19/2012 16:32:09 MDT.

Jason, well I can see a few reason. In general, it is simply not required for 90%+ of nights pitched, I'm racking my own brain for my own pitches failed and I think I've had 1 collapse due to soggy ground and pegs just moving out, and only 1 collapse from wind.

I've seen far far FAR more pitches fail of other's tents but they were ALL choice of bad pegs or simply not following the pitching instructions.

To me... this basically makes the Notch have for only 38g more (the Dyneema) and 6 pegs (which I'll need to buy, these were borrowed from a Scarp for the test) it turns it from a floppy to a rigid shelter.

Also, 4 pegs.... that is simply wonderful for most pitches but on some pitches either a stone is in the wrong place so you can't push peg all the way in, or the ground is too loose and the tent pulls the peg out, and with the Notch's design, only 1 peg failure = tent collapsing. So just a simple bit of redundancy. You'll know when you're putting in the pegs do you need to add more pegs. If the weather is windy you can put in the extra pegs.

So... I vote this is giving you best of both worlds, light and quick pitch when situations call for that, but you can pitch it better when situations require.

If you watch the "before" shame I broke a pole but this is why I do garden tests, apply years of experience without any risk to oneself....

Edited by nigelhealy on 05/18/2012 19:37:18 MDT.

I think a simple improvement would be a flexible lightweight pole that went between the two trekking poles at the apex. That way the stakes at the two entrances doesn't require as tight of pitch and that would help in camp sites where you don't have great holding strength.

Yes that was one my first thoughts too, but ....

I reckon there's a need for give in the design, too much rigidity will tear the grommet. Force comes from wind and the design has to give, move, to transmit that force all over the tent, if its too rigid in one place it will increase the force around that rigid point. Placing a stiffening pole between the two trekking poles will mean force on one side instead of causing a softening of the flysheet will simply shove the other pole. The elasticity in the Silnylon is what gives the tent a better chance to survive harsh forces, admittedly with some flap.

I'm going to modify the guy line attachment to solve a few problems at once tomorrow, because a stiff Alu pole and Dyneema is, ironically, too strong for Silnylon and will kill the plastic grommet, I need to make it strong but not rigid. I have it in my mind's eye drawn as I was biking around 2600ft today and I'll make it tomorrow.

I used to design aircraft, and if we made the wing too stiff it would transmit more shocks to the passengers as turbulence and fail earlier in the wingspan snap test.

It will all make sense once I've assembled it and will be unique to the Notch.

This is great. Soon we will have a 3lbs Notch that will withstand a hurricane.

That pole failure was rather shocking to see. You hardly applied any force at all when it snapped. I've always felt the vertical poles supplied with TarpTents were inadequate for the job, and I've never understood why anyone would use them unless they live in completely windless regions.

I also don't understand why proper (and reasonably strong and simple) guy out loops have not always been attached as standard for all TarpTent models regardless of the differing desires of customers. They are not something you can easily add to the designs once you get your shelter, and they are very important aspects of shelters that need to be done right (the best guy out loops wrap around the poles and are not simply sewn to the fly fabric) during the shelter manufacturing process. They don't add any significant weight whatsoever and I feel are as important a feature as stake loops. You don't have to use them, but they should be there for those who do want and need to.

Nigel, in the days of A-frame tents the end poles were always guyed out with two guy lines set in an inverted "V" shape drawn from the apex of the poles, not with one guy line, as is customary with UL shelters today. The V-shape took into account both the transverse and longitudinal stresses that the pole encountered with the wind. I've been trying to figure out a way to do this with the Notch ever since I watched your videos. I feel the three guy lines that you are using are a working solutions, but the whole set up is inelegant, especially when considering the elegance and simplicity of the Notch design. Have to think of a way to get the V-shaped guy lines attached to the hiking pole within. A grommet that does not take the stress of the guy lines might be the best solution for getting the guy lines through the fly fabric.

Another idea that might help with the tension on the poles (though I don't know if it is necessary, since the fly fabric is strong enough to take the stress of the wind), is to get a length of dyneema cord with two loops at either end, that when deployed is exactly the width of the distance between the two poles inside the tent. When setting up the Notch, just slip these two loops over the tops of the poles, slip the V guy lines over the top of the poles, slip them through the grommets on either side of the fly, set the poles, peg out the fly, then pull out the V guy lines, peg them, and tighten. The guy lines will keep the tent tight and the dyneema cord in the apex will keep the poles from being pulled outward by either the stress of the wind or the V guy lines.

I've had my Notch for a while now, but haven't had a chance to use it. I'm taking it out this weekend and will give this idea a go. I'll let you know how it worked out.

Edited by butuki on 05/20/2012 21:09:55 MDT.

+1 to Miguel's opening two paragraphs.

One can always add these:

http://shelter-systems.com/gripclips/

Miquel, I'm hoping my ideas will bounce of yours and others and between us we'll figure it out.

Your idea of looping Dyneema between the poles... it will be important to not cause rubbing on the Silnylon as that will rapidly wear a hole in it and leak.

I know exactly what you mean - elegance. My guess is the Notch factory-delivered design will meet about 80% of my needs, from my camping experience, but its those last 20% which I'm worried about as tent failure in the worst situations have the greater consequences.

IF we're not careful we'll build a 50G "exoskeleton" of Dyneema to transfer forces off the 4 pegs.

What FG said, yes due to bendy poles rending the Notch no-wind-only for 800g invalid, its already for hiking with poles if 800g, or its a 1.3Kg shelter which is already the weight of the Scarp. The Dyneema doesn't add much weight but the extra pegs will.

Pole breaking, well it was very useful to learn that lesson when at home than learn it far from home. I know exactly what happened, that Brompton I had placed it around the pole and the pole bending it was pinched at the bike and snapped. If the bike hadn't been there it would not have broken so easily, but still those poles just sway soooo tooo much. Easton do make thicker poles. TT has chosen to not offer them with the Notch, I think from my limited ownership experience some simple collapsible but stronger poles still have merit.

Nigel - I should have added this to that post: ; )

My Notch will have a windy shakedown in just 4 days for a week and I suspect it will get battered by coastal winds a bit. I always look for natural wind breaks but will, for the purposes of testing, avoid them for a night or two. I do NOT have the additional guyouts but will take extra line to wrap around the trekking poles should things get out of hand. There will be to Notch on this trip so should one of them become a kite, we will have another to experiment with.

Thanks FG.

The single simplest thing you can do is use trekking poles and not use the supplied 6" Easton pegs but better pegs. Fundamentally, if those pegs don't budge and you got a stiff trekking pole, I think you'll be fine.

Even just a single guy in the direction facing the wind will help take a bit of relief off the 1 peg in that direction and so help. If the head end of the tent is facing the wind, it will have one vent facing the wind and so easily guy out one to double the number of pegs facing the wind.

Doesn't have to be the 10-peg ultimate I assembled.

Looking forward your field report, a lot of it will depend on the randomness of the weather you encounter. There's wind and there's wind obviously....

So I'm done with this, bored, mind's eye ideas expunged.

Adding 2 guys per side, total of 4 guys total adds little weight and is really simple. Video shows the 2 guy per side option, and shows the more complicated 3 guys per side option.

Here the Notch is pitched as close to the ground as possible because you're guying for windy conditions presumably right? If it aint windy, you don't need the guys...? Well no, I think you should guy it anyway because the additional pegs on the guys reduce the forces on the 4 pegs near the fly so they don't tend to drift out the ground, if they do drift out they've weakened the soil there, so I think even if not windy, you should always add these guys just to help keep the tent tight and reduce flap anyway.

This system is adding probably about 20g of Dyneema and about 40g of pegs so 60g added to a 700g shelter. Hardly heavy!


http://youtu.be/W_O5AxVLrJo

This is a method I invented to get 3 guys, 2 external two internal.

http://youtu.be/E_UNdB30hJ8

Complicated, is an exercise in origami and physics but someone might build on the idea and improve it. This would add say 40g of Dyneema and 80g of pegs for 120g added, for total of 10 pegs.

If someone, I guess TT, want to offer guys attached to the Notch, then I think they will need to be right on the apex so they are pulling with the line of the fabric and not off the the fabric, less stress on the stitching, and it would benefit from an external reinforcer to spread the force so it doesn't pull the apex stitching apart. My 2cents. Til then I trust the pole attachments.

The last thing I need to do is get some more sliplocks, because of the Silnylon damp sagging solution of adjusting the trekking pole length. After I got all the tent tight, the Dyneema won't stretch but the Silnylon will so I can't just push up the pole to tighten Silnylon from inside the tent, I have to loosen up the guys. A clever solution would be put those sliplocks right up near the pole so you can reach them from inside, so you'd slacken the guys, push up the pole, tighten the guys.

I'm done, any ideas to build on mine welcome.

Next problem is a storm flap for the vent... so I'm *almost* done :)

Edited by nigelhealy on 05/21/2012 22:31:51 MDT.

I was hurrying off to work when I wrote my last post, and I forgot to mention that Henry had, without my asking, installed two guy loops onto the apex on each side of the tent. So there is no worry about finding a place to attach guy out lines. These I want to try out before I try the internal guy line attachment method. I guess Henry anticipated my having asked him many years ago to attach guy out loops onto my Rainbow (which later became standard on the Rainbow).

Nigel, I'm curious about your stitching coming loose for your guy line tensioners. Did you sew two bar tacks? And did you sew the bar tacks first with 3 or 4 longitudinal, regular stitch lines, followed by the zig-zagging bar tack stitch that covers the regular stitches below? Your stitch shouldn't have come loose.

おはようございます
Miquel no I didn't do two bar tacks, and I'm glad I didnt.

Guy loops? So how will that look? Might work better than a sliplock stitched on, the loops will be stitched over more of the ring around the apex and so be stronger?

Look at this video before the guy came off, the links are at the point in the video where you can see the guy attachment, play just a few seconds, so here the stitching not failed but you can see the forces at play, look at the shape the fabric is taking, it you put the guy there, imagine if the weakest thing was not the stitching but the Silnylon.....and that point in the tent is where the entire tent comes together.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=h5_umAo4VWQ#t=22s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=byamYwHvSHA#t=14s

So as to approaches, if the ultimate force is applied, the weakest thing cannot be the SilNylon as that then rips your shelter apart for the rest of the trip. The ultimate force must unslip the sliplock or pull the peg out the ground. With the 4 pegs as supplied the pegs are too-weak relative to the SilNylon, if you add the guys it risks making the pegs stronger than the SilNylon so I think it needs a different solution than the simple stitching of a sliplock at the that point below the apex.

My solution is not perfect, it actually makes the weakest point the strengthener inside the shelter apex as the pole will basically not move if the shelter were to be blown hard but that force is already being spread by the strengthener being stitched to a ring of stitching.

The guys attaching internally to the pole still has the advantage you can easier slacken and loosen from inside for SilNyLon sag tightening.

Edited by nigelhealy on 05/22/2012 10:48:19 MDT.

> Pole breaking, well it was very useful to learn that lesson when at home than learn it far from home. I know exactly what happened, that Brompton I had placed it around the pole and the pole bending it was pinched at the bike and snapped. If the bike hadn't been there it would not have broken so easily, but still those poles just sway soooo tooo much. Easton do make thicker poles. TT has chosen to not offer them with the Notch, I think from my limited ownership experience some simple collapsible but stronger poles still have merit.

Yes, that's absolutely why those poles snapped and, yes, the poles are flexible. Trekking poles are far, far stiffer and far preferable. The Eastons are a 4-ounce, $14 pole set. You get what you pay for. Having said all that, we've been offering the same Easton pole set/spec for the Squall 2 and Contrail for eons and no one has ever reported a pole break. No one. You bent it in an unnatural way (wrapping it around a bike frame) but left to flex in a natural way it just would not have snapped.

I would love to offer a light, stiff, inexpensive pole set but I think that's an oxymoron. A stiffer carbon set, with "trekking pole stiffness", would be much, much more expensive. There's no doubt an intermediate carbon stiffness solution which is just somewhere between more expensive and much more expensive and that's probably where I'll head down the road given that there are already much, much expensive trekking poles already on the market.

Re: your line tighteners tearing off, I think you just didn't sew them very well. Not enough stitching or the wrong thread.

-H

MYOG Groundsheet (thanks Mark).
http://youtu.be/ibiKgUOzTfg

Using the two vestibules to open up and turn into more of inner-only.
View outside
http://youtu.be/vr6MQr4uzcw
View inside
http://youtu.be/r4Iqih-orXY

Henry on TT's website shows lowering the Notch, this is the first time I tried raising, I know I did it wrong and slowly but at least shows it can be done....
http://youtu.be/DB3wfwKq3vY

Thanks Henry for contributing. Yep my own fault, and why I'd never make a warranty claim for that, but I'd rather have my stupidity resolved at home than in the middle of a 5-day bike tour (my average) so I've learned something but probably no-one else did?

Stitching coming undone, yes absolutely correct it was not strong enough, but having seen the shape the fly takes (before the stitching came undone), I firmly have the view that the guy should NOT attach there. It might make sense further up at the apex. My point is a strong peg on strong Dyneema will tear the Notch apart if the guys are at that same point I stitched. Take the stitching coming undone as a warning that particularly spot isn't the best spot. My bad stitching just meant no SilNYLon tear. Best attached at the apex possibly? Loop stitched around the ring at the apex? I don't have the solution but I know now that point, where the plastic reinforcer meets the join going down to the porch zip, its the wrong angle for the guy attachment.

Great tent. I figured it all out eventually. Sat in it now with 15mph winds reminding me I need to trim the noisy MYOG Tyvek groundsheet protector a little more...

I'm close now to packing up and next this Notch will get used for a 10 day trip.

So wrap up. Pros:
- two vestibules (amazing, for the weight)
- lightweight (truly is)
- the inner floorspace I think is enough, its long+narrow but enough for me. I'm sat in it now and the width is ample, sat cross-legged, plenty of knee room.
- masses of headroom. Deep joy.. I'm "normal" height and I find this a good height for real living with the problems of getting clothes changed and packing up needing the height. That was one issue which drew me to the Notch.
- versatile (I can turn this into handling a variety of situations), the height adjustment is stellar.
- can be made storm-worthy with little added weight
- excellent condensation management (why I looked at TT in the first place having only owned Tera Nova, Coleman, before)

Cons:
- out of the box its flappy, easily fixable though with guys for little weight
- use with trekking poles, or light winds. That means if someone isn't walking with trekking poles, its probably wiser to consider another tent.
- ermmmm that's all!!!! (great tent).

Henry, thanks for designing the Notch, I hope my input will improve it..

Edited by nigelhealy on 05/22/2012 21:06:46 MDT.

Yesterday I had nothing to do so I thought a bit about this thread and put to my self this question " what would I do if I hat the Notch in winds high enough to make me doubt it would survive ?"
First thing that came to mind was to set it up without poles at all .
Just flat on the ground using the pitch Lock corner at the head end and the other end down and into the wind.
That way you end up with a large bivvy. Shove the pack at the back of your head and be prepared for a noisy night but out of the weather.

An easy way to get a lower profile and retain the shape and most of the space inside is this way:




Set up the widward end flat to the ground.
Do the other end as normal (Pitch Lock corner)
Stake the door panels down to ground level.
Get inside an place the poles,
(can be done from the outside via the vents...)
Note the guyline placement.
Franco

Edited by Franco on 05/30/2012 00:35:12 MDT.

Franco, I love the way your mind works! That bivy alternative setup is great, and very useful to know!

Franco, I've never had to do it, but I always figured that if the wind got to be too much for my tent, I'd turn it into a bivy!

Thanks.
Yes you can do that with most tents...
Usually the poles brake before the fabric rips apart so (in emergency....) eliminating the poles or reducing wind exposure (dramatically lowering the tent) can work out.
On the other hand if I were hiking where an expedition grade tent is usually required, I would get an expedition tent.
Franco

Franco. Great thinking. Building on your ideas.... and merging with one I've got in my mind but missing a few parts....

If I were inside the tent and really worried about it lifting off, how does it sound if I had pitched it using the guys off the trekking pole which had sliplocks at the end of the trekking pole, so you can tighten it from inside. I could drop the trekking pole to a much much shorter position (remove it even) and tighten. Or tie the two guys together tighten from inside. I'd have loose fabric between the vestibule peg and the end pegs, but at least its lowered the whole tent to face-height. The end struts would keep the fabric off your face but otherwise its resting on your body?

Looks a bad idea in my mind as the loose vestibule fabric would just catch in the wind and lift up....so would need rolling up tight.....somehow...

Its just one of the things you don't do when inside a tent which feels like its going to lift is take the big fat (in my case) camper weight away from the inside of the tent, to go outside and change its pitching, so I'd be looking for rapid height-lowering tricks. The Notch, has the ability to lower itself a little but only by about 5cm-10cm at most, with the vestibule going flappy, lowering further from inside would need a fabric-reducing trick.

Your Ideas Franco seem to be for *pitching* it in strong wind. Useful, I'll look some more and think some more on that.

The worst windiest conditions arrive and leave quickly and its more likely to happen when in the tent than at pitching time so tricks to do from inside a tent have statistically more value than pitching tricks done whilst windy. Please note the word statistically, that doesn't mean yes/no.

Well I got the chance to try the Nonch on snow.
Two weeks ago I had id set up on snow during the day (I had forgotten my trekking poles in the car and was too lazy to go back to get them being distracted by building a nice fire inside a hut...)
this w/e i finally slept inside it.
The first shot shows how I set up the extra two guylines and how I use the poles (tip down)


I learned then to keep the ends flat otherwise the inner will touch the fly (you can see that on the left side).
This is how it looked without the extra guylines this w/e ; it was set up in the early afternoon and it is about 9Pm now :


and this the next morning after 15cm or so of snow :

it is around 7:30 AM , the tent was put in tension at around 9:30 PM after a few nips of very nice single malt whisky (thanks Brett...)
In the situation I would prefer a bit more room but it can certainly take some snow .
The reason for using it there was to see if it could handle the out os season snow long distance hikers may encounter.
Because I was buried in snow I don't think the fabric inner would have made any difference.
I did punch snow off several times during the night (I wake up 3-4 times most night unless it is raining hard , then I tend to sleep all the way)
My mate was using his Scarp 2 and took up most of the floor there all by himself... (spreading his gear around)
Franco

Hi Franco,

Any photos of the inside in the morning?

Also, I'm guessing I know the approximate answers but what was the nature of the snow (temperature, wind, moisture content)?

I've always been a bit mystified about how snow sticks to silnylon (given how slippery sil is).

Not sleeping through the night DOES have some advantages in that situation.

Good to see the Notch in some winter conditions. A versatile shelter, this.

I do think the solid inner would have more of a difference if it had been all-solid, and not just partly. It would have helped with stopping any condensation build up on the outer canopy, and would have made it warmer inside due to less air flow. I'm still not sure why only a partial inner was offered.

The first picture was taken 2 weeks ago and I did not sleep in it ( it was only up during the day..).
The other pics are in a different place taken this w/e and I did sleep inside it.
Mine has a mesh inner and it really was designed to be a 3 season shelter , however with a bit of ingenuity it can be used in some areas in winter.
For that I would probably opt for no inner at all as this would give me a lot more space to move about and cook under it.
The "solid" inner was designed for windy areas including where and is a problem, not snow...

In the morning (I got up just after 7AM) the sides where iced up solid . There were a few drips on the top of the inner but the inside of the fly was also frozen.
No problem with wind because I had snow all around the fly but still had the vents open and I had the bottom of the door (the lee side is at the front in the pics) undone.
We had bush rats and pigmy possums about so I kept the mesh closed (a couple in a tent about 50 yards away had a mouse (native) inside one of their back packs. Most likely it was there getting inside it at the hut...
Max temp around 2c, min temp around -2 (maybe -4c at around 4-5AM but I was asleep then)
So the snow was heavish turning into ice (that is why most of the load was taken up at the ends just with the very maligned 8" Easton...)
looking at those pics I guess it was a bit more than 15cm of snow because the ends are 30cm high


Another shot of the Notch on snow (from yesterday morning)
This time we had great weather. Below freezing at night with some wind so I woke up with a frozen fly but totally dry inside.
Turned out that my Exped DM 7 was the only one out of mats used that night there (5 guys in total) that did the job.
A couple of guys had Thermarests (ProLite 4 types) and blue mats and were still cold...
They were warm on top (huge winter sleeping bags, but cold from the snow under. I was inside my Summerlite with puffy top and bottom as well as a 200 Merino top and bottom, Merino gloves and hat)


Franco

Edited by Franco on 07/22/2012 17:08:41 MDT.

I just read this thread and had one thought about the high wind worries: what about double-pegging?

*) Most tent failures are the poles -- not going to happen with this tent. Putting stress along the long axis of trekking poles is not going to break them. Most tent guying is to support bent poles -- not relevant in this case.

*) I'm assuming that fabric failure is not the main worry -- no one has worried about that so far, that's not a usual tent failure mode, and guy lines supporting the tops of the poles would not help that anyway.

*) That leaves the pegs pulling out as the expected failure mode. It looks to me as if there are a couple of answers to that:

-- One person (Franco?) pointed out that you could do a lot by just using 8" pegs (driven at the correct angle) instead of the supplied 6" ones, especially at the ends.

-- I saw mentioned in passing that you could double peg -- run a short line from the top of the peg to a new peg that is a bit further out. All that line and the new peg have to do is to keep the main peg from rotating. (I do not expect failure from pulling the main peg sideways through the ground.)

Wouldn't that solve most of the strength questions, and do so with not much weight or fuss? All it would take is 4 short lengths of cord (negligible weight) and 4 added pegs (about 2 oz).

Edited by blean on 08/09/2012 17:57:48 MDT.

Most tent failures are the poles -- not going to happen with this tent.

A pole breaking seems to me one of the more likely causes of failure. Especially when using lightweight CF poles. Some interesting thoughts here http://tramplite.com/2012/07/lightweight-shelter-supports.html, which reflect my own experiences.

I take your point, even though I doubt that the vertical forces in the Notch are enough to make this the most likely failure.

In any case, the point of the posting was double pegging as opposed to a bunch of extra guy lines. Those extra guy lines are not going to alleviate the (possible) problem you are pointing out.

One other observation -- there are limits to how far it is wise to try to go in the direction of extreme strength. If you fix all failure points:
   *) The poles do not fail (whether inherently or doubled or otherwise strengthened)
   *) The pegs do not fail (double peg, or extra guy lines)
   *) The lines are strong enough that they do not fail
then all that is left is the fabric and the zippers. Unless you are VERY sure that the fabric and zippers can take anything Mother Nature can throw at them it might be better if they were not the weakest link.

Edited by blean on 08/09/2012 18:47:58 MDT.

As the BPL tests confirmed sometime ago, an 8/9" stake has a lot greater holding power than a 6/7" version.
To me the advantage is that they are also easier to use jammed in rocks/logs and used under a pile of stones as a dead man anchor.
A mate, from another tent company , even made (for himself) a triangular connector that took two stakes only about two inches apart, the third apex hole taking the guyline..
I tried that (a few years ago) and it works well enough with thinner stakes too.
There are (I think..) commercial versions and from memory something like that has popped up in the DIY section.
Franco

I take your point, even though I doubt that the vertical forces in the Notch are enough to make this the most likely failure.

My experiences has been in a mid type shelter (this is also the type of shelter that I have read about having a pole snap). Vertical forces may well be less in a shelter with two rather than one pole.

One other observation -- there are limits to how far it is wise to try to go in the direction of extreme strength. If you fix all failure points.

This is a good point. Poles on dome tents are designed to bend before they snap. Unfortunately this isn't a property of CF poles.

A triangular connector that took two stakes only about two inches apart.

Roberts Saunders used to make one of these for use with their wonderful tents.

Actually, you don't need anything. I have been double staking a long time. I simply place these at an angle to each other. This creats a "claw" in a much larger area of ground. Far stronger than just the area of one stake.

While my tarp only needs 5 stakes, I carry 7. I sometimes loose one, I need to double stake two, or, I can use them for staking the sides. For about a 1/2oz on a 16oz tarp (including the 7 stakes) if I do NOT need them, that's OK too.

Franco,

In the holding power tests, what was the failure mode? I am conjecturing that it was the top of the stake rotating towards the load.

That's what my suggestion was aimed at -- because of the leverage involved it wouldn't take much force at all to keep the top of the main peg from rotating forward.

Bob
You need to become a member here to read those reports.
Without membership there is no BPL, without BPL I would have another three hours a day with nothing to do.
Franco

Definitely adding the Notch onto my short list for a new 2/3 season shelter.