Another call out to all the New England-ish area folks for a second GTG!

I've spoken with a few of those that made it to the first GTG and there is both interest in having a second GTG and having a "deep winter" hike where the winter veterans can share their knowledge and skills with the rest of us.

I (we) am(are) proposing an initial hike where us newbies can get our winter-overnight feet "wet" (cold? ehh, my analogies fail me...) on a hike where the overnight temperatures will not drop too cold.

I think the holidays are a tough time so perhaps we can find a date in January, and a location, where we can put together an overnighter + a decent mileage hike (say 15miles?).

Enter yourself on the BPL member map, it's a useful tool for members and for us to figure out a good spot: Member Map
1) zoom in to your general location
2) click edit in the left hand column, three new buttons will appear on the map, one is the google maps "dropper"
3) drag the dropper to a location reasonably close to where you live.
4) fill out the form with your name/BPL name and any other info you would like to include (link to forum profile, etc).

Bryce has set up a survey to try and find a date that is most agreeable to the majority of us,
For Dates, shelter preferences and mileage...
Survey
Results

- UPDATE 2011Dec19 -
for some reason the "Watch This Thread" wasn't sending me emails, but I'm back to writeup the latest:
Weekend of 13Jan2011 - 15Jan2011
Glastenberry Mountain, VT

The south trail head is about 5 miles east of Bennington on rt. 9 on the North side of the highway.

From a topo map and trip reports it is a long mellow hike. apx 10 miles one way to the summit. It also crosses little pond mountain summit (3331') about 6.5 miles one way. The trail to the summit is the long trail/AT so it should be easy to find out way, however I do think this will be a winter hike that will require lots of trail braking because of its remote location.

Start elevation is around 1400', a quick steep climb to 2000' and then a easy mile to the shelter at around 2400' little pond mountains summit is 3331', the trial drops to a col at about 2900' and then a climb back up to 3748' for Glastenbury mountain summit.

I think this will be a LONG easy hike which will make it a bit harder in the low light of winter. Headlamps will be used to hike on this mountain.

It also looks like there might not be any views from the summit because they closed the fire tower down a few years ago. - Jeremy Osburn

From Walter Carrington:
Glastenbury mt. section of 100 classic hikes in New England on google books

A neat map link, shows AT overlaid on Google maps, click on trail segment box under the map

From Bryce:
Plan for 0F nights, average lows for nearby Shaftsbury in January

More Weather links:
Point Forecast
NOAA snow conditions
Prospect Mountain Ski Conditions
Stratton snow report
Mount Snow snow report

Friday night is a 2mi hike in to Melville-Nauheim Shelter
Saturday is an 8 mile hike to the Goddard Shelter
Sunday is a 10mi hike out to the trailhead

Edited by TinCanFury on 01/10/2012 10:13:45 MST.

....I'm in.

I'm more than happy to setup a poll and SPAM BPL members on the BPL Member Map. :p

Don't have any current spots in mind, but perhaps somewhere around the 15F mark during January would be a decent place to start.

Absolutely! I'm going to be out of commission until mid-January at least, but I definitely want to get into some more winter backpacking. Easing into it is the right idea.

I don't know how winter is in the Berkshires, but western Mass does seem like a good place for us all to meet. If we can get more than one trip this winter, easing into the winter backpacking could well go like... Western Mass, then Southern Vermont, then the Whites, and... if we're really crazy and like long drives, northern Maine. Oh yeah!

I can't speak for everyone in this regard, but I don't have a full winter gear set-up. I'm working on building one, but would anybody be interested in group cooking, camping at a lean-to, or other such sharing of group equipment?

Steve brought up sharing equipment, and that'd definitely be a decent idea. Heck, even the cabin on our last trip would work, but I bet everyone wants to try something different. The AT that runs through there might have decent shelters?

You sell your sleeping bag? ;p

Indeed, I think sharing gear where possible is important for the new guys, since winter gear is expensive and what to buy is also a concern.

I know places like REI rent gear and that may be the way to go. Rent a 4 person 4 season tent as a group (or, for instance, I have my Nemo Losi 3p which can sleep 4 though isn't storm "proof" so would work well for a calmer weather weekend), etc. It's something I'm hoping the experienced folk can help with, what can/should we share, what can be rented, etc.

I am in for a winter excursion.

Im a newbie as well, I have only one winter overnighter to my name, near sages ravine in wmass. Post holed the entire trip, I recommend slowshoes if there is any decent amount of snow.

That cabin looks pretty inviting with its wood burning stove and four walls! A lean to would be colder the wind would come right in and also the convection underneath would steal alot of our warmth. A tarp could be put across the front to mitigate it some.

Im up for sharing gear as well.

I do not have much winter gear. But I do have a -15* cabellas synthetic rectangular sleeping bag... it only weighs 7lbs! Maybe some MYOG is in order to tapper it and cut some weight.

I'd be up for that cabin, if everyone didn't mind similar scenery. Of course any other cabin would be fine. This way people could sleep outside and try shelters and if that doesn't work, grab a bunk in the cabin.

Is 5 lbs 15oz 1light for a 3 person shelter? I have no idea.
http://www.nemoequipment.com/nemo2011-losi3p-tent

That shelter would hold up fine to all but a 100 year storm.

@Clint - da_n you and your MYOG skills! :p

I've slept 4 people in that tent a few times. you just can't be too tall... it's cozy, but that may be an advantage in winter?

Hmm. Yeah, I had thought of staying in lean-tos, but Clint you're right that it could get drafty under them. I wonder if that cabin on Alander is a popular place... we wouldn't want to show up needing it and find that there are a lot of people already there.

As for group gear, all I've got for extra stuff is a pair of Lightning Ascent snowshoes and I might have a Whisperlite. I haven't used the latter in five years, but it should still work.

Bryce... yes. That's a long story, though :)

we'll have something to talk about as we all freeze our bums off!

Hi,
I just moved to Cambridge last summer. I'm fairly well equipped for winter - I've got a Bibler Bombshelter, MSR XGK, etc. that I'd be glad to share.
- Barry

Steve, could you drop a reminder to fill out the Member map in your first post? It may help in deciding on a location, though we were happy with the general area for the last meetup.

http://maps.google.com/maps/ms?ie=UTF&msa=0&msid=217710768001213283190.0004ac9ffae6ae244e691

Thanks.

I'm not a New Englander .... but I can emphatically concur that winter sleeping in a 3 sided shelter or on any sort of raised platform will be colder (bleeping colder!) than on the snow.

For Dates, shelter preferences and mileage...

Survey:
http://www.zoomerang.com/Survey/WEB22DVXMGPV4T

Results:
http://www.zoomerang.com/Shared/SharedResultsPasswordPage.aspx?ID=L2BBVZGQLQV2

http://sectionhiker.com/winter-backpacking-gear-list/

Phil is a machine. I'm more thinking of something with a low between 0-15F and not necessarily peak bagging a 6K foot summit. :p Perhaps some snowshoeing (I have an extra set, but for a lighter guy. I bought them first, and then were undersized for my 195# self) and bring some microspikes.

Is that what other had in mind?

Heck yeah. Western Mass and Southern Vermont are great in this regard-- no alpine stuff, so snowshoes should be enough without any need for crampons and self-arrest training.

As for temps, we'll plan the date and play it by ear from there. It's entirely possible it will get colder, but we'll discuss that when the time comes.

Any time after the first of the year is good for me. Western MA or Southern Vt sound like good spots. I would love to work up the knowledge, skill, gear and courage to attempt something in the Whites at some point as well.

Gobble Gobble

I won't be able to make it until after the 18th, but definitely interested.

First off Bryce thanks for the invite!

I don't have a lot of experience (winter or otherwise) but would love to come along. Unfortunately, January is the crazy time (birthdays, baby shower, baby due) so I'll have to be a late addition, if at all. It makes more sense that I'll have to wait for the next one. If you all aren't too far from the lower hudson valley, I'll join for a day with some scrumptious treats.

Pete

I'd be interested. I have a North Face VE25 tent that supposedly sleeps four, but weighs 9 lbs. I might have another couple of pair of snowshoes if people need them, as well as an XGK stove, extra XL down coats, etc. Too much gear that I've never gotten around to selling might just come in handy!

Edited by rutilate on 11/22/2011 10:57:37 MST.

Thanks for the invite; I am sorry I cannot make it. Please keep me in the loop for future NE GTG’s.

Ugh, gonna have to practice using a pee bottle....

I don't have any winter gear whatsoever. I apparently sleep warm and do have a 20F WM Alpinlite which is crazy warm despite being way too roomy. If I filled all that extra room inside up with jackets, long johns etc, I bet I could extend the rating pretty far. Can always bring a couple hand warmers too.

I don't think I'm ready to spend a whole bunch of money on winter gear, but if we did an easy overnight I'd probably be game.

Well, I'm excited to hear that there's already another BPL trip in the planning stages. I hope I can join this time. I have plenty of winter gear. I have a winter tent, -20 bag, etc. So, I don't have any limits. Also, I'm fine with whatever distance you guys want to cover. I'll do 200 feet from the trail-head or anywhere under 20 miles.

I'm free the weekend of January 21st or 28th. Also, I could do something in Feb. Southern Vermont would work best for me, but western Massachusetts would be fine too. Also, if people want to hike in the Whites, I'd be more than happy to go there with you guys. We wouldn't need to do any alpine stuff.

We could to a piece of the Catamount Trail in southern VT, which is pretty much the winter alternative to the Long Trail and AT in Vermont.

http://www.catamounttrail.org

Keep me posted.

I'm interested. I've got my gear (might use someone's stove if my esbit won't work, but I haven't had it fail me yet). Since I generally don't plan too far ahead, I'll just wait and see what weekend in January y'all decide on. The only weekend, right now, I couldn't do is mid-Feb, as I'm going out to the west coast gathering then.

I'd be happy to share a cabin, but when it comes to tents - I'm not much of a sharer! I've got my own shelter I'll bring - either the Brooks-Range Rocket or the Scarp 1 with fabric inner. If I attend, I could also lend one if someone needed it. And I have a Scarp 2 with fabric inner I could lend as well. Both Scarps are new/unused, so if you 'break' it, you bought it! Also have a Golite 0 degree Adrenaline bag converted into a quilt I could lend someone (as long as you're sleeping in clothes and not naked). Guess that's about it.

Hey Doug,

Jealous of your West coast trip....I had planned on attending, but I wanted more of a hike than a gathering out there if I was going to make the effort. Keep me posted if you catch a trip out West like that. I know it's on my list for next year. I'll be hiking in AZ already off a work trip, ope to have more (anyone want to come?!).

I might need that 0 degree bag if you come up... stinking JRB won't put their High Sierra Sniveller quilt on sale, haha. I have a 15F Marmot Helium that I will use if the temps are right though.

"0 degree bag"

It's no longer a bag, it's a quilt. No hood, zipper removed. See pics here: http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/forums/thread_display.html?forum_thread_id=43297

Awesome. This is getting better by the day.

Tommy D, if we don't end up doing Southern VT for the group gathering, I'm still hoping to do at least one or two more weekend trips in the Glastenbury and Stratton area this winter, time depending. Who knows... maybe northern Vermont, too.

Avalance shovels could come in handy, by the way. Not necessarily for avalanches, but for shelter building. Always a highlight of winter camping. I've got one somewhere around here...

"Not necessarily for avalanches, but for shelter building."

I'd LOVE to learn how to make snow shelters! The trip would be worth it just for that! Are you teaching Ryan?

On a trip to the ADK's in February a kid built a Quinzee out on the ice. It certainly worked....but holy hell it was a lot of work. Glad it was this kid and not me haha.

I usually rock a tarp (in this case my two person Ray-Way) and build up walls of snow on three sides. Then on the side with the entry I build a little wind break out of snow. This of course is car camping w/ a nice shovel. :p

https://fbcdn-sphotos-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/s720x720/306412_128158997292759_100002959778490_134780_921017584_n.jpg

Haha. It's been a while since I've built a real shelter entirely out of snow, but depending on where we go it might be possible. I do like Bryce says-- use the shovel to add to the comfort of whatever tent or tarp you set up. I tend to go with a tarp, but dig trenches and a pit to make a nice, large area to sleep in and cook in. With four-season tents, it's nice to dig out a pit in the vestibule so you can have an even better place to put your gear. In general, the shovel can be used to scrape out a perfectly flat sleeping platform after stomping the snow down to a solid pack.

But if we have time, I'd be all for making a quinzee or digloo or whatever you call them. They're great for sleeping in. And extremely warm.

I was thinking a bit too much about this today at work, and I think I've come up with enough locations that we'll have to do three or four trips over the course of the winter to even scratch the surface. Some of my ideas...

1. Stratton Mountain and Pond, VT-- great base camp area near Stratton Pond, with challenging hike to Stratton Mountain for the dayhike. Maybe not too secluded, though.

2. Glastenbury Mountain, VT-- Not sure about the approach, but the summit is pretty cool, and there's a fire tower that we could camp right next to.

3. Pemi Wilderness, NH-- So many options in here. One really nice one is near Norcross Pond on the east side of the wilderness. Or the west side, we could hike in from Lincoln Woods and do a dayhike up one of several mountains.

4. Griffith Lake and Baker Peak, VT-- another possible base camp further from the road, with an easy-ish hike up to a good view.

5. Wild River Wilderness, NH-- Lots of good places to camp at low elevation, and then either hike up to Carter Dome, Moriah, Baldface, or other cool mountains.

I've totally left out the Berkshires, which would be a fine location as well.

I'm partial to trying bushwhacks, too, since winter is the time for that in New England (as far as I'm concerned... less undergrowth). And we can come up with trips ranging from one night to five or six if we feel real crazy (or unemployed).

Any thoughts?

All the suggestions are intriguing, but I admit I have not researched them much. Three things I'd like if possible in our location are:

- Is there a hut (not a shelter) for us to stay in? There was some interest in this, but also "bring your own shelter" was as popular or more so perhaps a nice-to-have.

- How far is basecamp from the trail head? I know a lot of us are new to winter backpacking, so having the ability to bring in extra layers, etc. to base camp may be important as a lot of us aren't quite sure what we'll need to bring to keep warm/comfy.

- Are any of these locations significantly colder than another? I figure the Berkshires will be the warmest, but wondering since the colder we go, the more gear we'll prob need (to purchase). This isn't a deal breaker, but just curious.

Thanks!

Bryce <- trying to find people who ~actually~ use VBLs on regular basis, and in what temps are they useful.

Oh yeah... forgot about that. But it's a good point.

Out of the list above, Stratton is really good in many ways, which is why I've been pushing that as a location for a while (not just because it's closer to me than most other places!). The shelter isn't fully enclosed, but it's so big that it might as well be. You can easily fit 20 people in that thing with room to spare, and it's more enclosed than most AT shelters. Most of the enclosed lodges on the Long Trail are much further north, or not really great destinations.

As for distance from trailhead, it's 4 flat miles. Not bad at all. There's also a loop... we could make camp near the trailhead, hike over the mountain on day two, and camp at the shelter area after.

Let's see... The White Mountains have the huts, but those are pricey even with the self-service in winter. The RMC cabins on Mt Adams are possible also, but I don't know if there's any place to tent near them-- it would be cabins or nothing I think.

We could definitely do Alander again, with that little cabin up there. That about exhausts my brain for now.

Bryce,

Thanks for the invite, I would have completely missed this opportunity!!!! I am in for sure, I keep my schedule in the winter nice and open for just this very reason. The only time I have booked right now is Jan 27th-Feb 3rd, I will be in the ADK's enjoying hopefully extremely cold deep snow.

I read through everything so far, here are my thoughts. The locations that Ryan posted are great, I have a little bit of hear say knowledge about a few of them. I think the best one is Glastenbury Mountain, I have heard that this is a relatively mellow but long hike. So making it to the summit might not be able to happen. The experience will be great regardless. I also think it has a crazy ghost story about it if it is the one I am thinking of. If it is I will prepare my best theatrics for the trip! I would say anything with a pond in it is a bad idea for a intro to winter trip. NH is to unreliable with weather, could be above zero, could be -20 and nasty. A second option right across the way from Glastenbury is Haystack Mountain. A little less remote, better water opportunities (no melting drinking water is a plus).

As far as gear goes. My shelter of choice is a Shangu La and a bivy, but in all reality a three season tent with the least amount of mesh is very acceptable. The only thing extra you have to do with a 3 season vs 4 season on the east coast is brush snow off a little more frequently IF it snows. The most important thing about tents in the winter is great ventilation, and as many bodies covered in goose down as possible to make a nice cozy sleeping arrangement. Stoves should all be white gas for simplicity in large groups and a max of 6 people to 3 stoves (one is a back up) and 2 x 2L minimum pots. If 8 people go then 3 cooking stoves and a 4th backup will work. It looks like with Glastenbury there isn't a water feature so melting snow most likely will have to take place which will mean alot more fuel. We can discuss that as planning progresses. Ice axe and crampons won't be necessary in Souther VT or Western Mass. A few shovels will be, a comfortable camp kitchen is the most important part of winter camping.

Guys (and gals), I just caught wind of this thread. I'd love to go and I could probably arrange any of those time slots. Keep me posted. If you have an email conversation going, please include me - mmarasco@mail.niagara.edu. Thanks! Also, not sure if anyone was considering the Adirondacks as a possible destination but my best friend's aunt owns Raquette River outfitters and has been hiking/skiing the area for years and years - she can definitely clue us in to some areas that are off the beaten path. Just a thought. Either way, I'd love to do a trip with some fellow BPLers!

My winter kit is a bit patchy- I use two 30-degree bags layered- This has gotten me comfortably to 10f, and I'm confident I could take it even lower. I'm not sure if I can get my weight down to the range of my Ohm, though. My backup pack is a Gregory z55, older model that weighs 53 oz, so not the worst option. Shelter is a bit heavy - BA Copper Spur 1. Though without the inner tent it's not so bad at around 35 oz including heatsheetz ground cover. Don't own snowshoes, but could borrow some from a friend.

Well, please keep me updated. I have a severe lack of outdoor-minded friends, so it would be cool to meet some of you. Cheers!

Edited by BabyMatty on 12/02/2011 10:59:35 MST.

Don't know how feasible of a trip it would be for some of you, but I've read a bit about PA's Laurel Highlands Trail. The 72-mile point to point crosses a few roads along the way, so shuttling should be fairly convenient. What really makes this trail cool is that there are spots every 6-12 miles with a few lean-to structures that have fireplaces with chimneys! And get this - PA DCNR stocks them with dry firewood! See more here-

http://www.shol.com/featheredprop/lhht_info_right.htm#Shelter%20Information

The dates are a dead heat.... wish there were a tiebreaker or two. :p

I've been researching gear. I'm going to try and rock a Vargo Ti Wood Stove and pick up a "real" knife to air in fire making (currently use a glorified razor blade for 3 season). I have snow shoes, and am going to layer summer quilt and summer bag for this outing. I am currently research overboots...

Anyone else researching?

I'm researching until my eyes bleed :)

Just in response to Jeremy's post about which areas are most suitable: Glastenbury would be a good hike, and I'd forgotten that there's one lean-to only two or three miles from the road, then it's 8 miles from that lean-to to Glastenbury. There's bound to be a lot of snow and it'll be a tough hike, and we'd have to figure out the timing of the weekend. Friday night, into the first shelter (might be very challenging due to darkness and tricky trail finding), saturday night to Glastenbury, sunday out? That would be a big day on sunday, the trail will be broken out already.

As for Stratton, the shelter is .2 miles away from the pond, so wind off the pond wouldn't cause much of a problem. It would be a nearly 4 mile trek into the shelter on the friday night, though, which could be tough depending on when everyone gets there.

Bryce, I've got a pair of 40 Below Light Energy Overboots... they're pretty rockin. Definitely worth looking into. As for other things, I'm going to need to work some gear ideas out before next month, I guess.

I am not doing any specific research, but I think mother nature can help decide when we should go. The later the better, this warm weather the mountains are having right now is making me very mad. I can start looking at trails if we can narrow it down to two or three choices.

I like:

Glastenbury Mountain, VT

Haystack Mountain, VT

Any other thoughts...

I won't be able to make it, but it sounds like fun! Thanks to Bryce for letting me know about this. Hopefully I'll be able to do next years. Another location would be around Mt. Mansfield, there are a few Long Trail shelters (One is a sweet cabin, and other fully enclosed I think), a nice summit, and a bunch of trails. With the weather we've been having you might need to go a bit further north to get to the good snow.

It finally started snowing for real. It is supposed to be cold for the next week at least, hopefully until March. Can we pick a date and place?

Based off the poll, here are the two most popular dates:

1/13 - 1/15
1/2 - 1/22

(tied)

Oh baby! It's on!

I don't know anything about Haystack, but I know there are decent lean-tos on the Glastenbury route. Jeremy, you seem to know more about Haystack, so your input would be good. I think Glastenbury would be a great place for the trip, but mostly I just want to get out in the woods-- I could go with either.

I don't know much about either I will do some homework on both and report back in a few days.

Oh. Well that works, too :) I've been to Glastenbury a few times, most recently only a couple months ago. If it helps, I have a gps track I took of the hike, so we could cheat a little bit. It's also very easy to find the trailhead. I live only an hour and a half from both areas, so if I get to the trail before some other folks, I can break out the path to the first lean-to, so anyone who gets to the trailhead after dark would have a path to follow.

The south trail head is about 5 miles east of Bennington on rt. 9 on the North side of the highway.

From a topo map and trip reports it is a long mellow hike. apx 10 miles one way to the summit. It also crosses little pond mountain summit (3331') about 6.5 miles one way. The trail to the summit is the long trail/AT so it should be easy to find out way, however I do think this will be a winter hike that will require lots of trail braking because of its remote location.

Start elevation is around 1400', a quick steep climb to 2000' and then a easy mile to the shelter at around 2400'
little pond mountains summit is 3331', the trial drops to a col at about 2900' and then a climb back up to 3748' for Glastenbury mountain summit.

I think this will be a LONG easy hike which will make it a bit harder in the low light of winter. Headlamps will be used to hike on this mountain.

It also looks like there might not be any views from the summit because they closed the fire tower down a few years ago.


OH and this is the one with the ghost stories!!!!
http://voices.yahoo.com/the-mystery-people-vanishing-glastenbury-mountain-12403.html

Edited by earn_my_turns on 12/08/2011 18:42:14 MST.

Pretty spot on--

Aside from a few hundred yards across the river from the trailhead, it's a very mellow, easy hike. Trail-finding may be difficult just because it's a lot of open hardwood, which means white blazes may be a little hard to find.

Little Pond Mountain has no view, but there are a few ledges along the way that provide views.

Melville-Nauheim Shelter is approx 2 miles from the trailhead.

Goddard Shelter is 0.2 miles from Glastenbury summit. The firetower was renovated in 2005, and has wonderful views.

The only trail that gets to the summit is in a community. You park about 2.5 miles from the summit. Not really what we are looking for.

I looked at Stratton and I think it is a better second option, the only issue I see is that you can only camp at the designated tent sites around Stratton pond. I am ok with that but realize that it will most likely be a cold night sleep both nights.

Other than that it looks like it starts out at about 2200' up and down for about 3- 3.5 miles to 2600' to camp at stratton pond

Take a different trail the at/long trail straight up to the summit at 3940' over about 3.5 miles.

Then back to down to statton pond for another night and then back out the way we came.

This trail should be decently broken, it is very popular.

Thoughts?

unless someone else has another idea.

I remember climbing Glastonbury Mtn this past summer and think it sounds awesome to try for this winter. I'm game !! Just waiting to hear what the final date selection is going to be so I can try to get off work for that weekend.

I would also like to hear a final date selection.

Glastonbury Sounds good to me.

Or the places in NH suggested in the whites.

I am open for either of those weekends mentioned.

Someone voted (or changed their vote haha) and now 1/13 - 1/15 is the winner. Glastenbury sounds good to me. If no one has any objections, "Let's get it on!"

Seth - Carpool again? (my snow tires are going on soon! So I'm good either way.)

The date change just pushed me out of contention. I'll be out of the country until 1/19.

This sounds like fun. I'm not sure if I can make it or not.
Some info:
Glastenbury mt. section of 100 classic hikes in New England on google books:
http://books.google.com/books?id=eRPodpFAtrAC&lpg=PA106&ots=uHQiisZJj6&dq=appalachian%20trail%20Glastenbury%20Mountain&pg=PA107#v=onepage&q=appalachian%20trail%20Glastenbury%20Mountain&f=false

A neat map link, shows AT overlaid on google maps, click on trail segment box under the map:
http://web.eecs.utk.edu/~dunigan/at/googleat.php?lat=42.88782&lon=-73.09507&mt=3&scale=11

Looks like the trail head is a little under 1500', Nauheim shelter is 2300'.
1.6 miles rte 9 to Nauheim shelter, 10.1 miles rte 9 to Goddard Shelter.

When I did this long ago it was 100 degrees.

If you don't understand the youtube-famous WOW reference in the subject, that is okay. Looks like I'm in, and trying to convince my twin brother to join also.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LkCNJRfSZBU


Q: Any ideas about nighttime lows for that area ? wondering how I should be thinking in terms of prepping a gear list for the weekend. Was thinking MLD Duomid w/ superlight bivy and an Exped UL 7...and then wondering what degree bag I may be able to get away with if I bring my Montbell Thermawrap Jacket and pants for camp and to boost my sleep system (have a 35* down, and can add a 50* synthetic quilt over that....over just borrow a 0* or similiar bag from EMS....Any input would be helpful. Thanks, Seth

Leroy rocks, but I'd kill him if we were ever on a Everest Climb and just went nutso. :p

I am going to plan for low 20's high teen's for night time temps and 20's to mid 30's during the day. VT is relativily warm and calm compared to its neighboring mountain regions to the east and west.

I should add that I tend to like it a bit colder than the average so I don't pay as much attention to low temps.

PS just put the trip in outlook!!!

Edited by earn_my_turns on 12/09/2011 11:23:57 MST.

I looked up average lows for nearby Shaftsbury in January:
http://www.weather.com/weather/wxclimatology/daily/VTSPSH:13?climoMonth=1

Looks like planning for low of 0F is way to go?

I would say 0 is a good bet. It's been a warm season so far, but I haven't found the Green Mountains to be significantly warmer in winter than the whites (at similar elevations, at least). I have more experience in northern vermont, though.

Alright. Now that we've got the get-together #2 date figured out, let's start planning #3! End of January, White Mountains!

I'm all in Ryan - let's get even more reasons lined up to not pay any attention at all to work :-) Happy Friday Everyone ! Live for the long camping weekends !

Bryce - totally agree about Leroy on Everest...I'd leave him to fend for himself is my guess.

Good to see another reformed WOW addict. I think you have to be a WOW addict to understand that humor. I am a member of WOW Anonymous and it has been 789 days since my last login.

I don't know this Leroy, but I think I'm okay with that. My video gaming days are a little too far gone to have caught the WOW bug.

But as far as more winter stuff... Yes. How about the following weekend?
Or more seriously, sometime in early February? Less seriously, bring your sweethearts and call it a valentine's day vacation. In an igloo. They'd love it.

....the later into February the better. Gotta space these things out. :p (post a new thread?)

winter will be a bit of stretch. She likes snowshoeing and I can convince her of the occasional summer weekend trip, but I don't think she will buy into well below freezing temps at night. I will ask after finals next week though. I would be up for the whites in February.

What I'm saying is my GF won't do winter camping and she get jealous of the boy's club on backpacking weekends. So if we can space the Jan/Feb trip out a bit that'd be great. :p

I had you in mind when I said that, Bryce :)

Well, we'll stick with the January Glastenbury date for now. For now...

I'm all for a late feb trip.... and if it is in South Beach I ~might~ get my GF to come along too. :p

What system is everyone planning on using for:

- While hiking (w/ poles)
- Around camp / sedentary

I have poly glove liners, Military surplus trigger finger mitten liners, C.A.M.P. windmit'Ns shells for hiking, but I'm unsure if this is substantial enough for around camp.

What should I be planning on for snow -- microspikes ? Snowshoes ? Just hiking boots, poles and a lot of luck ? Any thoughts would be welcome....as I'm also trying to get my brother set up, as it looks like he may be joining this party.

I'll have Atlas 930 snowshoes and microspikes. I also have a pair of these (gotta find them first) if someone needs them:
http://www.14ers.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?t=27812&p=330047#p330047


I have a pair of Atlas 925 snowshoes for anyone that needs a pair (look up the weight suggestions, but consider the gear you're carrying and clothes you're wearing...I did not when I bought them haha).

Unfortunately I'm still not sure if Ill make it on the trip but I can tell you what hand wear I personally use. It is not UL as it is old but it is what I have and it works well enough. My winter gear is in serious need of updating.

OR goretex shell mittens
liner gloves or windproof fleece gloves depending on temp
single layer pile mitten liners
triple layer pile mitten liners (would like a ul option)

I hike in the liner or fleece gloves and add the shell mittens if I get cold or it is wet, this works most of the time. Lighter pile mittens are good most of the time when sedentary or hiking if it is really cold or my gloves are wet. I almost never use the super thick pile liners and probably won't bring them anymore as they are heavy. I tend to bring them for camp but most of the time I end up wearing my gloves for dexterity and use my puffy parkas hand warmer pockets while hanging out. If I don't bring the heavy pile mittens I would probably bring both gloves or add a fleece mitten. I still err toward an extra safety margin in winter and extra hand wear was drilled into me back in the day.

I am taking snowshoes and hiking poles, no spikes, they won't be needed. I have goosefeet and the overboots that ben makes for camp. If you go that route I highly reccomend swaping out the thin closed cell he includes with zlite cutouts. Much warmer in the winter (Hint Hint, Ben you should make this an upgradable on your website for the winter folk if you read this). As far as gloves, hats, and socks, my rule of thumb (pun intended) is also take extra. I bring a thin neoprene type glove to hike around in during the day, thick fleece gloves to change into for cooking and around camp and as a back up incase I get soaked in the hands, insulated mittens that can fit over either pair of the liners, and then shell mittens for nasty weather that can fit over a pair of liners and the insulated mittens. I take two hats, a OR gore windstoper that is on almost always, and a light wool hat as a back up. 2 of everything in socks. You need the extra incase you lose something or get a pair of something soaked and they become frozen and useless for the rest of the trip.

Edited by earn_my_turns on 12/12/2011 12:25:39 MST.

I really want to say I'm in for this, as I didn't go winter camping at all last year. I just have to talk myself up for the 5 hr drive from Manhattan.

Also presuming no setbacks with my recently healed foot.

Mike C!'s winter list is always a good reference for winter gear.

I am very pumped for this trip, as I have never hiked in VT despite living in the state next-door. I am also excited to finally meet some BPLers!

Jim, perhaps I could give you a ride? I was actually thinking of spending Thursday night with my friend who lives in Union Square.

I can give folks a ride from the South Norwalk train station on the Metro North as well.

For those that have been to the trailhead already... what is parking like? Thx.

Jim, If you take the subway to the bronx somewhere or a train to me in jersey we can car pool up and I will drop you off in Manhattan on Sunday Night. I refuse to go into the city on my way out of town on a Friday though. Did that once for a buddy to get up to VT and we made it out by about 9. It was a mess.

Parking is a pretty big USFS trailhead. We'll be able to fit a dozen cars easily, as long as it's plowed (which I'm pretty sure they do).

edit: Here's a link to see the parking area on google maps. Just make sure it's in satellite view. It's the one on the east side of the road.

Edited by ryan.c.linn on 12/13/2011 15:55:28 MST.

Thanks for all those with great input regarding gear lists for those of us with no experience in winter snowshoe camping!

Looking forward to this trip ! I could also carpool people that wanted to leave a car at my parents place in Canton, CT before heading up to VT.

@ Bryce - I could go with you, but if my brother also comes it may be a better fit to all go in my Outback.


LOOKING: my twin brother is very interested in coming, but wonder if anyone has got an extra set of snowshoes for him (6'1" skinny dude and 170 lbs + hopefully around a 25 lb pack). Also I've got a superlight bivy to go under my Duomid, but all he has right now is an EMS Mountain Light 20* Bag to go inside my backup tent (a Big Agnes SL2), and my extra puffy layers (Costco Jacket over a Thermawrap jacket) plus I can get him some warm baselayer bottoms. Do you think I'm pushing the 20* bag rating too far ? I could also rent him a 0* or possibly a -20* bag from EMS. I can also rent him snowshoes if I need to (since I'm going to be borrowing some from work for free anyway).

Any thoughts welcome, and I'll keep checking out options as we get closer to the trip. Cheers

@Seth, I'm in for carpool, your car or mine doesn't matter. If any NYC members take the train to South Norwalk, I'll just drive up separate with them and see you there (I of course will let you know either way).

I have Atlas 925 snowshoes up for borrowing... they are rated up to 200lbs:
http://www.rei.com/product/805220/atlas-925-snowshoes

If you want them let me know and I'll bring them.

As for the bag, I think 20F is pushing it. Douglas Ide had a 0F quilt (Would need a down hood though), though not sure if he is making the trip, nor the cost to ship it up here and back.

seth, I think you are on the edge with that bag and those clothes. Since it is only two nights your brother will survive on a full belly and all those clothing but he might not sleep much or be that comfortable. BUT for comparison, I am a warm sleeper and I have taken my 5 above bag to -12 and slept a little chilly but I blame that on being sick and not eating not the bag. IF it is a quality bag and true to the 20 degree rating and your brother usually sleeps a bit warmer, and wears all those extra clothes, AND eats a ton of food for dinner and then a nice midnight snack when he gets cold at 4 am then he should be just fine... Otherwise I would rent the warmer bag ;)

my gearlist is in my profile for review/reference. Getting stoked!!!

Wow nice list Jeremey. Seems like you have your winter setup pretty dialed in. Thanks for posting it. I look foward to seeing that MYOG down jacket. Looking at your list and Mike C. post that was referenced here inspired me to start making my own winter list and right off the bat I see some glaring holes in it as of right now.

Winter Shelter, Snowshoes, Winter Cooking Setup, Winter Sleeping Bag, Winter Footwear and Nalgene Bottles/coozies

Sleeping Bag I will probably double up on two bags for now.
Either 25*Down/30*Down or 25*Down/35*Synthetic

Footwear I have a few options that will work, non that are ideal

Snowshoes, maybe Santa will come through for me

Shelter, Im at a loss

Cook Setup, same as shelter

As for Clothes I have enough stuff to stay warm/dry moving and in camp.
Depending on my footwear choice, I may have to work out what Im gonna do in camp.


I will post my list when I finish it.

I would love to be able to go out and get some true winter gear, but the funds are not there for it right now. Depending on what I cobble together might have to go the rental route on some items.

I am getting stoked as well. Thinking of picking up a pair of MSR Lightning Ascents for the trip. I weigh 160, with gear the total weight would be around 190 I'm guessing. Would the 25s suffice?

Thanks Clint, I don't think you will need to get all that stuff right off the bat, but winter is a bit tricky because for the most part you can't really make do until you can afford something lighter or better. The most important are clothing, sleeping, and footware. As far as stoves go I am not sure of our final count but I think we are up to around 8-12? We should be able to get away with 4 or 5 white gas stoves/ 2L or bigger pots. Does that sound right?

If so I have one stove and 1.5L pot that I can bring but if anyone has an extra 2L or larger that would be a better choice.

Tent wise, I can hold one more in my SL2 if there is anyone that is a bivy sleeper, otherwise I might just sleep in my bivy/tarp and leave the SL2 at home.

Matt, I think you will be good with those shoes, they are pretty great I have seen them in action. I was bumming, those came out about 6 months after I bought my Denali's, night and day difference. I can't justify replacing snowshoes that have years of life left in them, so in a few years I am going to get the hovercraft version.

Also, I have never used poles. Are these a necessity for snowshoeing? I was thinking of grabbing a pair of wally world poles, just to see if i like them or not. I could also just borrow some poles from a friend for the Glastenbury trip.

I am going to try and rock a Vargo Ti Hexagon wood stove and .9l Cargo Ti Pot. I figure unlimited fuel. But I need to sort out my fire starting and bushcraft a bit.

I have a 15F Marmot Helium Bag and I will layer my 40F JRB down quilt inside.

Going to mess with some vapor barrier stuff as well. Why not (doggie poo bags are cheap!)?

Need to figure out hand insulation a bit better.

Matt- I think 25in snowshoes would work well for u w/ gear. I am bringing poles definitely (with baskets!)

@Bryce, Matthew and Jeremy - Thanks for the offers of possible rides. Right now I'm not sure if I'm in for both nights, or just Saturday night. Both nights would make the 5 hr trip more palatable(as would some company), but I'm also trying to save my vacation days. I really want to take a few in Feb to go to the GGG in CA, where I used to live. I may just have to bite the bullet and call in 'sick.'

@Seth and anyone coming up short in the winter gear dept - Both REI's in CT rent snowshoes, tents, sleeping bags and pads (heavy but at least you could get a 0* or close and be safe) and backpacks(for those who only have a pack for 7lb base weights). I don't see where they list prices, but I feel like in CA, when I rented snow shoes for my Sierra club snow camping class, it was about $35-$40 for 3 days.

Edited to add my tentative gearlist

Edited by jrmacd on 12/14/2011 12:18:43 MST.

That is a tough one, I think they are essential with snowshoes for some reason, but my girlfriend hates them the few times she has been snowshoeing. On this mountain if you don't have them, and don't usually use them I think you will be fine.

So Friday night is a 2mi hike in to Melville-Nauheim Shelter
Saturday is an 8 mile hike to the Goddard Shelter
Sunday is a 10mi hike out to the trailhead.

Saturday and Sunday will be exhausting for me, not going to lie. Especially if the snow is deep and breaking trail. (Ryan you'll have to lead the entire way with the motor you have. haha) Is this well within everyone's mileage given we'll be snowshoeing? (seems like a lot, but I've never really done this) What other winter trips have you done and what mileage?

Who has maps of the area? What are the best maps to buy? (some sort of Long Trail map?)

What "feel" will this hike have? With the miles we'll be covering it will be long days of hiking me thinks as opposed to hanging in camp. And long days will prob require some hiking in the dark. If this is the case, it will affect the stove I may bring (might pair up with someone else's gas stove and just carry extra fuel and leave my idea of wood stove at home as less day light to collect sticks) and the clothes I bring (bring less camp clothes if I'm just going to hike 24/7 and then eat a bit and crash in my sleeping bag)

Thoughts?

Hummm. I think it will be alot of hiking, you almost always have to either start or finish a winter hike in the dark. The good thing is if we have about 8 or so people we can roll the leader out every 50 or 100 yards so that the same person isn't breaking the trail the whole way. I think that should speed up our pace to around 2 mph fairly easily since when the leader rolls out they get a few minute break to drink, eat, adjust clothing layers...

I don't think I would bring less clothing, we will still be spending alot of time boiling water for meals and drinking. I plan on bringing a little Gin to keep warm in camp;)

Not sure about a map, I am going to swing by REI a few weeks before the trip and get something. The usgs quad I found online is too old, it doesn't show the current trail location. I think we stay on the AT the whole time.

Thanks for the info Jeremy. I definitely don't want to be "that guy" but I realize this is going to be WORK and I want to make sure I can handle it and I'm not holding anyone back. A 10-15mi hike during 3-season is a good day for me. Doing the same in the winter with snowshoes will be a big task. I'll have to think about it.

Also, how much water do people generally burn through on a trip like this? If I am rocking the wood stove I'll feel bad if I am slower to get a boil going. :p Thx.

Water is a personal preference, my norm is...
I start the day with 2 bottles of water, one hot and one cool (this is the one that if I am going to add a drink mix to like gatorade powder or tang) I drink all of the cold one and most of the hot one on a normal day, plus the occasional handfull of snow if it is a warm day and fresh snow is on the ground. For breakfast I have a cup of hot chocolate with oatmeal all mixed together and possible some tea. Then dinner is more hot chocolate, a soup, and enough to rehydrate dinner. So 2L to drink while hiking, then another 2-3 for food and hot drinks in camp.

I say bring the wood stove, I have never really seen one in action so I would love to inspect it, and frankly I want to see if it will put out enough heat to boil water in camp. It looks like there "should" be running water by both shelters so we hopefully won't have to melt snow for water. I will bring enough fuel that if you can't get it to boil in a reasonable amount of time you can pull off of my stove. Does anyone have a water bucket? OR 2? Those would be a great 6-8oz!

Hrmm, I wonder if I'm going to be the tard bushwhacking off trail to find twings buried under 2 feet of snow during breaks. haha. (I was thinking I'd break off dead sticks from low trees)

But if there will be water sources, that'll make things much easier... I guess streams don't freeze up there in January? *scratches head*

The stove definitely can melt snow, but again, my firestarting ability needs to be on point:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gNf--xVOv4M

I will have a .9 Ti pot (if we need to melt snow, otherwise something lighter me thinks).

I also dug up a "water bag" for carrying big loads of water into camp from a nearby stream kind of things. I got it NIB at a garage sale a long time ago and never used it. Is that what you're after?

Bryce, it's probably going to be a rugged trip. Elevation gain on day two will be really easy up until the last mile or so, but 8 miles is a pretty hefty distance. I think we can do it, though. :)

As for water, melting snow will be the only source of water on night two. There's a spring at Goddard Shelter, but it's small and will probably freeze or be snowed over. Night one, there's a stream, but it's not big. We may need to melt water. I've got my old whisperlite, and we can definitely get three or four people going on one of those. The wood burning stove... I think that'll work. You can almost always find decent firewood if you take a little bit of time in New England. Between the bunch of us, we can get that fire burning!

Maps... the Green Mountain Club's Long Trail Map is the best. I've got a track on my GPS from the same hike done earlier in the season, so if we have trouble and don't want to play around finding the trail, we can cheat that way.

I have one extra pair of MSR Lightning Ascent 25 snowshoes. Who wants to use them?

Since We will be melting our water supply, do we still treat it?

Does it have to be boiling for a certain number of minutes?

If it hits a rolling boil..you're good to go. If we want to conserve fuel, drop a Micropur tablet into lukewarm water.

I look forward to the pictures from this one. should be epic.

/lives vicariously through the local nutcases ;)

Hi,
I'd really like to go, but I don't have a car. Could I hitch a ride with someone?
Thanks,
Barry

glad these things live lives of their own to get moving.

I'm in. I may be able to get one housemate to join since her parents live up in VT.

depending on whom of my friends want to go I can give rides from Boston, the pooch will be joining though, in case of any allergies.

I'd also be down with tent sharing if others are interested? I've got a Losi 3P, unknown as to whether the pooch will want to sleep in the tent, but he is an excellent heat source...

I need to read through this thread a bit more and see what gear I may still need...

my main gear list
I plan to mix my Golite 20deg quilt with my generic synth sleeping bag. I've had the bag down to just below freezing (it snowed, that's all I know about the temp for that night) and was comfy in it, so hopefully with the quilt on top and my down jacket I'll be good (I also have REI down booties I could bring...). Comparing it to one housemates new Mountain Hardwear 20deg synth bag I would say it's also 20deg-ish rated.

I'm hoping to share a tent with a couple people, I think Clint said he was looking to share as well? I have a Nemo Losi 3p. We'll have an all night furnace, but he does have a habit of liking to go pee in the middle of the night...

my optionals

On my optional list
- Steripen for cleaning water,
- generic remote canister stove from this thread
- as well as my Crux can mount stove.
- 0.95L pot
- platypus 4L water tank(dunno how useful for winter hiking though...)
- black diamond orbit lantern

Lupus will be sporting some of his new gear,
silicone dog bowl - about light as his stamped steel, but it won't break the back of Bryce's legs ;-)
Water/Wind-proof overalls
and some generic booties

How would you divide up the weight of the tent between 3 people?

I also think we'll have to conserve the # of shelters due to limited space at campsites, but I've never been there. Anyone know how much room there is to pitch shelters?

the way I've done it in the past is
-poles
-rain fly
-tent + footprint

each ends up being about 2lbs.

Lupus carries the paw-print...

*contemplates bringing his CF Tarp or sharing tent*

I guess I'd like to know what Ryan and others who have been on the trail think of the amount of space to pitch shelters.

Luckily, these two shelters have tons of space for tenting. Melville-Nauheim (night 1) easily has enough space in summer for five or six tents. In winter with a good base of snow would be possibly more. Goddard shelter and Glastenbury mountain... you could put a tent city up there.

I'm going to bring the same tarp I used for the previous trip. I've used it in winter twice, no serious blizzards or anything. My backup will be the shelters.

fire pits! at least according to some of the photos on flickr...

I forgot to mention I am now the proud owner of two platypus platypreserve wine preservation bags. we just have to remember to bring the corkscrew opener and to transfer in the parking lot.

Steven I am jealous, or rather my pup is jealous, my little guy loves being on the trial, but he has no fur his limit is about mid 40's. This summer I actually forgot his blanket and I had to give him my quilt because he was cold and wouldn't leave me alone and go to sleep in the mid 50's.

I am bringing my MSR stove and 1.5L pot.
I would say leave water purification behind. Boiling water cools to warm water quicker than you can add the hot chocolate powder on cold winter nights. Luke warm water freezes on the way to your mouth;)
I think we need atleast 1 more white gas stove and pot, unless there is enough confidence in both the wood stove and the canister stove? I have no experience with canister stoves outside of summer, and no experience with wood stoves ever.
I also think we need larger pots, if possible. my 1.5L is really too small for this many people. We can make it work with smaller pots it just means more fuel and more stove time.
I can bring my SL 2 if one other person wants to bivy with me, otherwise I am putting the finishing touches on my first MYOG Tarp so I am kinda itching to get that out and try it. I am also open to being a 2nd or 3rd in another tent if it means less weight to carry. This is BPL after all. (Basically open on my shelter options just let me know where and who I am with, or if I am sleeping solo)
Good info Ryan, I will be bringing all the fuel I was originally thinking about bringing.
Bryce I would still bring the bucket, that thing will be a golden few ounces if we get to use it even one night, and I promise I will carry it if we don't use it on Saturday morning.

Edited by earn_my_turns on 12/19/2011 20:57:27 MST.

Jeremy
Steven
Steven's friend?
Lupus (on all 4)
Bryce
Clint
Ryan
Barry? (ride from Boston)
Jim (ride from NYC or only one night)
Matt
Seth
Daniel (Seth's Brother)
Gerry?
---------
Is that everyone? if so for sure confirmed we have 8 + a pup. on the fence is another 4.

Edited by earn_my_turns on 12/20/2011 07:04:18 MST.

My brother Daniel is a for sure thing now that we've got snowshoes and hiking poles worked out for him. Got him gaiters and rain shell pants to go along with his rain shell top. Looking forward to it.

I'm going to study Steve's, but any other hardcore winter guys have a list or two? Thx.

So I have this old car camping set that has both a big pot (3-4 qt?) and a big kettle. I believe both are aluminum, not UL but not all that heavy either. I use them on the good ol' Coleman car camping single burner stove I have when base camping. I could bring one of them?
another option is one of these:
http://www.rei.com/product/401068/open-country-4-quart-pot-with-lid
it's 16oz, but it is cheap. Either may mean we only need to bring one pot for all of us(?)
I have a friend with a Summit water bucket, ~4L iirc, I can probably borrow. He's one of the friends I asked if interested in joining us.

Q: about tents in winter, would taking just the fly and footprint work? I can imagine not needing the bug tent?

Shareable Goods List (so far)
Nemo Losi 3p, 3 person tent ~2lb/person- Steve Adeff
Large Al non-UL pot - Steve Adeff
Platy Wine reservoirs - Steve Adeff
Black Diamond Orbit Lantern, 6.42oz - Steve Adeff
MSR stove and 1.5L pot - Jeremy Osburn
Seedhouse SL2, 2 person tent, ~1.5lb/person - Jeremy Osburn
MSR Whisperlite - Ryan Linn
Vargo Ti Hexagon wood stove - Bryce F.
Water Bag - Bryce F.
Snow Shovel - Ryann Linn

Up for Borrowing(? still available?):
Atlas 925 snowshoes (Seth's brother) - Bryce F.
MSR Lightning Ascent 25 (Seth) - Ryann Linn

---
Lupus is half lab half husky and LOVES the snow. We went walking around Boston after one of the big snow storms two years ago, it was Sunday morning, 16F no cars, we just plowed through the un-plowed streets for like 2 hours, I had to go back in after 20minutes to change into warmer more snow proof clothing. He had the biggest grin the whole time and when I'd had enough he stayed in the backyard a while longer while I shoveled around the house. He also eats snow, it's rather adorable...

My concern for him is sleeping, which is why I got him the fleece. He generally likes to sleep outside the tent (or wander around while I fall asleep and can't let him back in), and in theory when I have the gear to hammock down to -15F he'll sleep on his own (though I am contemplating a CF doggy tarp for him) so I think this will act as a good "sleeping bag" for him.

Edited by TinCanFury on 12/20/2011 11:39:19 MST.

The large pot has potential to be great! The two questions I have is does it have a lid? Will it sit on a stove full of water and be stable? The stable question is actually easier in the winter becuase snow makes for a great level platform the add a light base of cardboard wraped in aluminum foil under the stove. If so then that pot will be great. The kettle could work, but I think it would be awkward to carry.

I wouldn't worry about the 2nd water bucket, it won't be necessary if we aren't sure we will have running water.

I have to make a minor correction my tent is a GoLite Shangru La 2. I use a bivy under the shelter, no floor or ground cloth.

I have two dogs, Chips a pointer mix, and our newest addition Wonton a pit mix. Both love eating and playing in snow. Just no fur so no sleeping in snow.

My 25in snowshoes are spoken for (Seth's bro).

Steve, I see why you need to be on the ground as opposed to hammock, and lugging the 3p tent alone would suck. I am going to rock my CF Tarp, but I have a Ray-Way 2-person tarp (much like Greg's blue one from the last meetup) that you are welcome to. If you want me to weigh it, let me know.

yea, if I had an UQ I'd take the hammock...

With the tarp I'd need a bivy too right? If no one wants to share a tent I'd be down for borrowing the tarp.

James: perhaps time to look into Hurtta fleece's for your pups!

the pot does have a lid, and should sit ok, but it does not have a flat bottom which may be an issue depending on the stove. The REI one looks to have a flat bottom though and would probably site better. The kettle does have a flat bottom, but its tall and slender so not as efficient for boiling, but better for pouring... I'll pull them out tonight when I get home from work, take some measurements and photos.

Edited by TinCanFury on 12/20/2011 10:40:59 MST.

I do not own a bivy, but using one with this setup is a personal decision.

The Ray-way two person is 8.83 feet by 7.67 feet...that's not including the beaks.

For reference, the tarp I had at the the 1st gathering is 9 x 7, w/ no beaks (did not use a bivy, if bad weather I'd put my pack liner over my feet).

I personally don't think u need one, this sucker is spacious, but up to you.

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=585379557686&l=2b8be60867
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=518914189816&l=2a98997593
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=554557455426&l=85df74d452
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=525164169806&l=23fb10bc66

Will u have hiking poles? They can be useful when pitching, if you can't find to properly spaced trees.

Let me know in the end if u need me to bring it.

ok, I'll let you know. I have an idea for a MYOG UQ I may get to finish before this trip. who knows what will happen between now and then ;-)

that's it, Lupus is getting one of these...

Seth has dibs on my Lightning Ascents.

I have to wait until after xmas to see what my whisperlite and pots look like, but they should still work. I think it's a 2 qt and 1.5 qt pot-- I can bring both. They've been sitting in my parents' house for the past four years since I stopped using heavy stuff. I think they're still good, though :)

As for bivy to go with the tarp, I really like the look of that tyvek thing by Terra Rosa that Phil had in October. I bet you could just use a tyvek blanket if you had to.

This past Sunday I climbed Windham Mtn in the Catskills:
http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/forums/thread_display.html?forum_thread_id=57142&disable_pagination=1

I mentioned that I was fine with the clothes I had on until I got a bit chilled stopping for lunch....my lunch consisted of two snickers bars, ~15min.

I prefer more little breaks/stops during the day where I can eat, drink and rest for a min or two vs. a long lunch where I need to cook.

So I plan on a hot breakfast and dinner, but snacking/quick cold lunch(es). Is that how others see this going? Thx.

Lunch in the winter is my favorite meal of the day. It starts 10 minutes after breakfast and ends 10 minutes before dinner ;)

My lunch is this:
I have a zip lock bag of pre-sliced hard salami and sharp cheddar
I have a zip lock bag of GORP which for me includes everything from yogurt covered raisins, mixed nuts, m&m's, candy.... Mine is as many different things as I can in one bag
I have another zip lock bag of nothing but candy, bite sized heresies (pre-unwraped) sweet tarts are great, sour patch kids...
Then I might have a beagle with a spread on it or a wrap with a spread on it (peanut butter, hummus, cheese spread).

I basically keep each zip lock bag in a different pocket on my jacket or on my waist belt when I want sweat I grab the candy, when I want a mix I grab the gorp, when I want savory I grab the salami and cheese. Then about mid day I will pull my beagle or wrap out and eat half of it, then mid afternoon do the same with the other half. I keep this as close to my body as possible, for me it is inside my shell jacket, so that it isn't a solid block of ice. I am actually working on a design for a kangaroo sort of pouch that will hold my sandwich, soft sided water bottle, and map and compass all in the same spot on my chest/stomach.

Hey Bryce.

I saw that thread, funny thing is I was doing the exact same thing in Alton, NH the same day. I did a 12-13 mile loop up Mount Major and along the Belknap Ridge. It was a great hike that I had never done before, overlooking Lake Winnipesaukee. The purpose was the same as you to test out my layers for cold weather. The temps were not quite as cold as you had. At 11:00am when I got out of my car it was 19*, slight wind. Probably got up to mid twenties I would guess. There was no snow on the ground, unlike what your pictures showed you experinced, A few small ice flows. Once I got moving I was down to Just a Merno T Shirt and a Capilene 3 L/S, throwing my wind breaker and beenie on when needed. The Layer I dropped once I warmed up was an R1 imitation from EMS. It all worked great may substitute in a soft shell for the windbreaker depending on the conditions of our trip.

My Legs just had Nylon pants with merino long johns, worked great.

My footwear is my challenge I used mesh trail runners, with thick merino socks and Rocky Gortex over that. Couple issues, the shoes fit all of that but there was not much room to spare. Also the GTX socks ripped a while back and I had to sew the seam back together that runs along the back of the heel. It has left a material clump that was rubbing. Third my feet were soggy when I got back home after the hour drive. I think I may put a turkey bag in there as a VBL or if that doesnt fit go with my second option a much clunkier Cabellas GTX Boot with a removable liner, (Think what hunters use to stand around in). Issue with these boots is that they are not very athletic and you can only tie them so tight, my heal still rise up a bit inside when walking. I am concerned about hot spot.

LUNCH:

Yea for lunch I imagine we will eat quickly and continue moving before we cool down to much. On my test trip I premade a tuna and chipolte hummus sandwich that I had kept against my back. I stopped threw on my puffy, ate and then continued on probably only stopped for 10-12 min.

I like the plan of hot Breakfast cold lunch, hot dinner. With 8 and 10 miles to do sat and sunday we will have to use all the day light and keep a steady pace with the slow shoes.

Great minds think alike Clint, I believe Steve got as well to test this past weekend. :p

Ryan/Clint, w/ regards to the windshirt. How do you think a softshell will help? I was under the thinking to keep my insulation under the windshirt, and if I was cold, I needed more layers under the windshirt, not thicker shell layer.... then again, I had no wind so couldn't really test much.

that's my lunch on almost all hikes. I could see it getting old after a week, but for a couple days...

Oy. It looks like I'll be the one going blind into the weekend trip-- I don't know if I'll have any time to test my gear before the trip. We'll see.

Re Lunch: Bring a chopped up foam pad to sit on, and puffy layers to put on at break. The foam sit-pad makes all the difference for me. I never cook lunches, so I'll be sticking with bars, PB, Nutella, trail mix, etc. Candy for lunch never gets old!

Re layers: I don't have a gear list made up yet, but here's a brief rundown of layers. Top- powerstretch l/s, windshirt. Bottom- soft shell pants. If it's wicked cold (below 10 or windy), I might add long johns to the bottom, and a fleece to the top. I haven't tried a soft shell top yet, but as soon as I find an affordable one that fits well I'm going to give it a shot (my thinking is it will be nice to have one that's basically just a slightly more insulated version of a wind shirt). Mittens for hands, balaclava for head, and 40 Below overboots for feet. At breaks I'll throw on a puffy jacket (big one, not the light kind) and maybe a rain shell over that.

In camp, I'll put on the puffy jacket and rain shell. And the true luxury is the down pants under my soft shell pants. Fleece pants work too, but down pants.... oh baby!

I'll bring the 5lb bag of Costco trail mix!

Ryan, you have me concerned about my feet with all this overboot talk...

Also, I'm really tempted now to figure out a sub-freezing hammock solution before this trip so I can bring it and use it as a chair at camp. time to pull out the sewing machine...

My day hike clothing results from this past weekend... It was in the high 20's most of the day from what I remember, with slight winds. We hiked a ski mountain, so when we were at the top it was open and quite windy, coldest part of the hike.

I had my toe to neck wool base layers going, IB GT200 leggings, IB GT260 top, Darned Tough socks. I wore my MH Cordoba climber pants, "heavy", but thick and comfy. My other hiking pants are a bit lighter but not as thick, and my rain pants are less than half the weight and wind proof, but provide minimal if any, insulation. Dunno where I lay in what pants to wear. I wore my First Ascent Hangfire Hoodie over my base layer and my IB wool gloves (though traded them with one of the girls since her thin marmot gloves were not keeping her hands warm and I was only half using my gloves). All in all, only when it was windy was I cold. I kept taking the hoodie on and off since I would overheat with it on, but I forgot my Earbags so my ears kept freezing (oy vey!). Oh, and I wore my Sanuk Lumberjack Streetwalkers that I wear, well, ever where when it's cold. My feet were toasty warm except when I got snow in them, then they were comfortably warm until the snow evaporated and my feet got toasty warm again...

I brought my Costco Triple-Star down jacket but never ended up wearing it...

Edited by TinCanFury on 12/21/2011 10:45:19 MST.

I will be rocking 40 below overboots and trailrunners plus bread bags, produce bags, turkey bags, something bags (:p) as a VBL and light/mid weight insulating sock over that.

I am bringing a Outdoor Research Ninjaclava and dropping any hat I previously thought of carrying. I can wear the ninjaclava as a hat if it's too warm out. My really thin Mountain Hardware beanie was right on the edge, and with any wind my head would of been cold me thinks.

I will have Cap 2 long john bottoms and regular nylon hiking pants over. I was fine with these, but again wind could get me. I figure with the integrated gators of the overboots and the ability to throw on MLD CF rain chaps, I'll be fine....plus we'll be snowshowing (i.e. working harder), not just hiking like I was last weekend.

= X number of snickers bars (love them when they're cold, I bought 2 x 6 packs yesterday) and trail mix!

Steve

I have been thinking about it and I think I will try and rock my Gossamer Gear TarpTent. I have never used it in the snow before but it sets up fairly sturdy and should be good for a couple of days. Need to practice staking it out in the snow.

Should the weather change my mind I could flip as the trip nears.

Thanks for the offer.

Anyone have a link to a decent map I can snag?

USGS:
http://mapper.acme.com/?ll=42.97828,-73.07178&z=13&t=T&marker0=42.97828%2C-73.07178%2C6.5%20km%20SxSE%20of%20Bennington%20County%20VT

Edited by bster13 on 12/21/2011 12:36:52 MST.

Hey Folks,

Something... very bad has come up, and I'm putting up lots of winter / mountaineering gear up on Gear Swap. If you folks are looking for equipment, it's there.

Thanks,
Barry

Tent: sounds good. If I can't swing the hammock for this trip I'll just take Bryce up on his tarp offer.

I think I'm going to bring this, I've worn it in Boston in the 10's and it's been quite comfy, wool top, windproof face and neck mask. then with the Triple-star down jacket's hood at camp I think my head should be good.

Frozen snickers bars *are* the best. I may need to get a box from Costco...

almost forgot about this before leaving the house, took some quick pics



pics of the pot and kettle. both have flat bottoms, though the kettle is only about 4" diameter. the kettle holds less volume but does have the easy pouring ability. Will try and weigh and measure volume tonight.

Edited by TinCanFury on 12/21/2011 13:50:47 MST.

I wouldn't even weight that bad boy it might break your scale. I couldn't do that to even my worst enemy. I say we make do with the pots we have.

Edited by earn_my_turns on 12/21/2011 13:52:16 MST.

Just curious since we'll be snowshoeing, not just hiking....thx.

I have an aluminum pot that measure 6" wide bye 3" tall that holds 40oz filled to a little bit more than a centimeter below the top of the pot. It comes with a lid/plate Also nestled inside it is a smaller pot.

Ive never used it since I always just take my 850ml ti snow peak ti pot but that is skinny and tall.

Since I dont have a stove, what about fuel? What about the sourcing, do the ones with stoves want to bring the fuel as well for people like me with out and I can give you some mulla and share the load carrying. Or should I procure my own fuel?

Food first, because it is dinner time and my girlfriend is running late so that is kinda the only thing I have in mind. I don't do the calories thing, it hurts my head. I subscribe to the Mike C lb/person/day which is about 1.7 for winer trips. I also take an extra meal in the winter just incase something happens and an extra night must be spent in the woods.

I would say bring the pot because it looks like we are short on big pots. For my stove you don't have to worry about fuel, I am bringing enough to melt snow for two nights for about 3-4 people.

Rodger Dodger on the cooking pot

On that same line of thought do we have enough stoves? Should I try and get one for winter?

so here's a question for the experienced winter hikers. would one of the winter stoves be able to boil 4qt of water at a time or would the energy losses to the environment outweigh the advantage of a 4qt pot?

I ask because the $15 4qt REI pot I linked to earlier is only 16oz, which is not much higher in oz/qt than a 1qt titanium pot is, but if we can more easily boil water that way... I'm also thinking of making an koozie ring for it out of a polyethylene foam or some such to help minimize those losses.

BUT if it's thought that this may be an impossible task out in the woods then I'll forgo the idea.

Stoves we have right now are:
2 MSR white gas
1 wood
1 canister
I don't really know I don't have any experience in the winter with wood or canister stoves. I do know that 2 MSR stoves aren't enough for our group size. So if there is any doubt in one of the other two stoves not doing the job then I think we need another stove.

As far as pots go, size doesn't matter. Sorry I couldn't resist. As long as it is wide enough to get a hand in there and move snow around (about 6 inches or so) it will work great. 4qt is about as large as you want to go, but we don't have to fill it all the way up. Just make sure you make a foil wind screen for around the outside of the pot.

Edited by earn_my_turns on 12/22/2011 06:18:44 MST.

I'll buy the pot and make a windscreen and koozie for it. If we Northeastern'ers keep doing these group hikes I get the feeling it will come in handy; also, $15...


I'm doing some reading on using canister in the winter. Here are some of the links I've found with some good info. This one is of particular interest, because I do have a remote canister stove. First, some graphs for uprights:

Upright Gas Stove Performance at Low Temperatures

This one however I found more interesting...
Caffin on canister stoves in deep cold

the whole thing is worth reading, but here's a "highlight",

Let's first compare ease of use between a top-mount and a remote canister stove. Basically, there is very little difference between the two. In fact, one of the things I like about the remote canister stove is the fact that it is lower to the ground than a top-mount. Otherwise, it is still just 'connect, turn on and light'.

I had better add a point here about inverted canister stoves. Basically they are just remote canister stoves, but they include a preheat tube similar to that found on white gas stoves. (Not all remote canister stoves have the preheat tube: check!) The preheat tube allows you to start with a dead-cold canister and cook happily down to about -25 C. That is a huge advantage.

The only thing you have to do is to start the stove at a low power for maybe 10 - 20 seconds - but you can start the stove with the pot already on it. In many cases you can start with the canister upright and then invert it after that time.

One really major advantage of remote canister stoves is that the operation inside the canister is quite different. With an upright canister the energy used to vaporise the fuel come initially from the liquid gas inside the canister. As a result the liquid gas cools down, possibly to the point where it no longer evaporates enough to drive the stove.


This can be dangerous in the cold. Even if it continues to work, the evaporation will be preferentially extracting the propane and leaving the butane. It is quite common for users to complain that their canister is 2/3 full but nothing is coming out of it. Butane boils at -0.5 C: if the propane has been used up and the butane is sitting at -5 C, you have a dead canister.

But when you invert the canister the evaporation of the liquid happens in the preheat tube at the stove, using energy from the flame. The canister does not cool down. The pressure used to
drive the stove comes from the static vapour pressure of the fuel in the canister - a pressure which stays constant as the static vapour pressure stays as constant as the temperature.

The other really major advantage of the inverted canister stove is that the fuel extracted from the canister is the original liquid butane/propane mix. This means that the percentage of propane left in the canister stays constant, all the way to empty. You don't end up with a canister 2/3 full of non-boiling butane. In effect, the propane provides the driving pressure which is given by the pump in a white gas stove.

Hey guys I've been watching this thread and considering making the trip, if I can gather some funds for a 4 season sleeping bag/quilt system. Just curious, any other shorter trips being planned? I'm an experienced 3 season backpacker, but I just can't wrap my head around a 9-10 mile day on the snow as an intro for me. I usually travel at about half my normal speed in winter/snow, and judging by the challenge of taking the Marcy/Haystack loop in a day (from slant rock camp) in October, I'm a little bit hesitant to jump into that length of hiking as my first big winter trip. Anyone planning any day hikes or shorter trips more geared towards the winter noobs?

Hey Adam,

From what I can tell the degree of difficulty and elevation change isn't on the level of Marcy, but no doubt this trip will push my limits with the 10mi of snowshoeing. I guess the guys who are in better shape convinced me in that they promised to break trail the entire time. ;p (In reality/theory, having 7-8 guys taking turns breaking trail will help.)

I am up for shorter trips as well, definitely.

Well maybe I'll start an intense workout regime after this weekend to prepare :) Or maybe it just won't snow this winter, so far I'm still riding my moped on the street and that was not possible this time last year!

Yea, it was 60 deg in Boston yesterday, and right now its 55. I can only imagine it both won't be cold when we get up there and there won't be snow. I know a few folks in VT that have said they've had no real snow fall yet...

This is starting out as a terrible year for snow. I started saying it is only mid November so we are bit behind it is ok that the high peaks, Northern VT, and the presidentials don't have much snow. Then I said its ok only the beginning of December... NOW it is almost Christmas!!!! I just want to play in some snow. VT could get buried in the next 3 weeks but we are getting close to crunch time for the snow to start filling in. Lets all do a collective snow dance, it has worked for me in the past.

Edited by earn_my_turns on 12/22/2011 09:27:00 MST.

I camp each February in the ADKs with friends. Here is a comment from one of them:

"I tried an upright butane stove on a not-very-cold winter camping trip, it was useless. Jamie uses a Jetboil and loves it in February, I think if it's gonna be super-cold he will keep the fuel inside his jacket. Also the 4-season mix might work better than the red MSR can I used. My wick-priming alcohol stoves are the only stoves that have never ever failed me... white gas should work too tho."

Yeah I can tell you I've also experienced major frustration in cold temp canister stove use. I keep my 15 year old MSR international on hand because after all these years, it still works, in any temperature. The thing about canister stoves is the gas gets too cold to really move around - it doesn't want to escape the canister and burn. There are a few options. I dealt with it by keeping fuel canisters in pockets, my sleeping bag at night, or wherever else you can put the canister to keep it warm. But the problem is as the cooking begins, unless you have a nice and large wind screen, the heat from the stove won't be enough to keep the canister warm. Again, some people make nice solid screens to keep heat concentrated around the canister, keeping it warm, the opposite of what you want to do with these in the summer (overheating has been warned against - risk of explosion to the canister maybe?) But I can't recommend the MSR whisperlite international enough for the winter. Yeah its heavier than a canister or wood stove system, but you don't need to worry about the cold temp, gathering wood/dry kindling, etc. I'd say your best winter options are the wood stove and the MSR whisperlite style stoves. Those things are tanks.

A) how did he use the upright stove?
B) I have a remote canister stove I can bring.

This link has much better info no the working theory on using canister stoves in the winter.

If we wanted to still use an upright, it looks like a canister with 0% n-Butane, kept above 11F before initial ignition and set up so that the flame heat keeps the can above 11F and below 113F works fine, ie a reflective heat sheild. I'll do some testing when/if the temperature actually drops. I have some high quality instant read kitchen thermometers. I'm thinking a dual use reflectix-type sit pad/wind shield may be in order...

One option in warming a canister up is fresh urine...

LOL nice, let me know how it goes with peeing on the canisters :)

Thanks, good link. This is really what I was trying to say: "The temperature inside the canister can drop to a point where the liquid fuel inside the canister won’t evaporate appropriately."

This is because the molecules are moving slowly, aren't excited, and the gas wants to just sit in the container rather than evaporate up and out to be burned as fuel. Based on the measurements, I think the best option is:

MSR IsoPro: 0% n-butane, 80% isobutane, 20% propane

But according to the info:

n-Butane vaporizes at 31 degrees F
Isobutane vaporizes at 11 degrees F
Propane vaporizes at -43 degrees F

So does anyone know if these stoves work with straight propane? The heavier green coleman-style containers were propane, correct? down to -40 would mean there would be nothing to worry about.

Will do!

Yea, which is why many say use a system to also "cook" the canister, just don't cook it to anywhere close to 113F...

From what I read the stoves should work with straight propane, it doesn't burn as hot, by about 200deg, but also propane requires higher pressure storage, thus the heavier tanks.

honestly, from what I've read, it sounds like if you know what your doing, using a canister stove, of either type, with a non n-Butane containing canister, you can cook down to temps I would rather not be in anyway.

From another friend who camps in the ADKs:

"My Jetboil worked great with the Jetboil fuel, but was a fail with the Coleman brand fuel. My Whisperlite blew it's 3rd gasket, and I haven't bothered to fix it since the alky set and Jetboil are so much simpler and take less (read that as "no") maintenance."

I went to the Catskills last winter with a buddy that used a jet boil with the family sized pot on it. It was around -10F and he didn't have any issues, I would assume he slept with the canister, but not sure.

Unfortunately I can't join you guys. The next week I have a previous committment at work to go on a week long ski trip to Mad River Glen(rough I know). I just can't leave my wife and baby alone for so many nights. If I can I may just show up the first night to meet folks and hang out but who knows. It is awesome you keep planning these trips, one of these days I really want to make it. If you come up short on cook gear and someone is going down from up north I have a simmerlite and 4qt aluminum pot(16oz with the steel bail) I'd be happy to loan out. You can pm me or post on the forum, I live about 35 minutes west of Rutland for reference. Have fun.

.....just curious. ;) Thx.

from the photos I've seen on flickr it looks like they both do.

The one at Melville-Nauheim shelter is directly in front of the shelter. The one at Goddard is off to the side. They're definitely there, though. And there are outhouses at both shelters, too. The one at Goddard is quite nice (big enough to sleep in if you're not worried about the smell)

Browsing down this thread, I am surprised not to see mention of crampons. Hard packed snow over ice is the New Englnad winter norm. Ideal crampon conditions.

Hi Frank.

I've never been on this trail, but from others have said, it will be long days, but the terrain won't be challenging.

Normally we'd all just rock snowshoes and be fine, but with this weather and no snow who knows! :o

(anyone know if it is snowing up there yet? Snow Info)

Edited by bster13 on 12/27/2011 13:49:28 MST.

Mixed precipitation to rain then at some point it is going to change over to only snow for the rest of the week. Hopefully they will pick up around a foot in southern vt by the weekend. I am not taking crampons due to the terrain. I have fairly aggressive snowshoes that will climb up moderate pitch snow/ice mix. Plus still hoping for nothing but snow until March (after today that is)!!! Everyone do the snow dance for 2' on unconsolidated snow when we get there in a few weeks.

Yeah, there's nothing above treeline on this stretch of trail, and no slab rock either. It would take a lot of ice to make this crampon-worthy. I'm crossing my fingers for a good dumping by this weekend :)

Mount Snow is the closest ski resort, and their reported base depth is 12-24" right now. Weak.

also important, what are the overnight lows?

http://www.wunderground.com/US/VT/Mount_Snow.html

well, with all the money spent on gear and the holidays, I'm now broke, and so buying a new winter bag is out of the question this year. i dug out my old zero degree bag that I haven't used in about 7 years. my father stowed it in its stuff sack, in the attic while I was away at college, and I had assumed it was long gone. SO, the question is, how badly damaged/ruined is it, since it has been stored compressed in the worst way possible? It lofted back up ok, but obviously won't be in tip top shape. If it used to be zero rated, anyone have any ideas what I should plan for now? Maybe with extra clothes and a liner it will be ok? thoughts? i never store my bags compressed like this and I know its wrong, but my dad had no clue, and i had thought it was gone anyway. any advice on how to recover its zero rating, if at all possible?

We'd need to know the brand and model of the bag. if it was a high-end marmot, WM, MontBell, etc. bag, then the 0F rating may of been very accurate, but often times lesser bag's ratings are a load of you know what. :p

Assuming the bag was truly good down to 0F (well, how low a temp did you use it in 7 yrs ago?), I'd wash the down bag (on a side loader washing machine with no agitator and with something like woolite or a very gently down-specific cleaner) and then throw it in a nice big commercial dryer with a few tennis balls to fluff it up. After that process is complete, I'd lay the bag flat and measure the actual loft (note that loft will be double sided with top and bottom included) and then search around BPL (using Google Search) for threads where they take into consideration the loft of your bag and the fill power of your down to give you an approx. temperature rating.

Generalizing things... if the bag fluffs up nice after a wash/dry and was truly rated to 0F back in the day, I'd rock it and just make sure I had some clothes to put on if it got too cold. GL!

Adam, down or synth?

all likelihood, if it's been in a stuff sack and not touched since, the damage to loft is minimal.

Loft damage is a bit of a red herring of sorts. The real concern is the amount of compression applied to the lofting material and whether that compression was enough to cause damage to the feature of the lofting material that allows it to loft. In probably 95% of the cases a basic stuff sack will not cause this damage to any lofting material.

Compression sacks I would be more wary of. Stuff sacks are generally sized such that the loft will not be damaged in any real way but that storage and transport will be easier. Where damage can occur in a stuff sack is when it is then further compressed or strained in some way where the lofting material is already highly compressed and a point source impact force can cause localized damage.

From there, if any actual damage did occur, it's affect on the "rating" of the bag will be determined more by where and the extent of damage than if any damage did occur. As well, there is no way to repair damaged loft material without replacing it.

My bigger concern would be, was it ever tested at 0deg when new and how did it perform? Ratings are widely inaccurate, especially the older the rating. It may be that the bag was never going to get *you* down to 0deg when new anyway, so aiming for that magical number now is an exercise in futility...

The short answer: sleep in it in your backyard/porch and find out. It sounds like, if it lofted up "ok" that no real damage occurred. In the end, the only way to find out how well it will perform is to use it.

Ok great advice there. It was a down bag, yes. It was in a regular stuff sack, and it was not in a compression sack. It is an LL bean zero degree from at least 10 years ago. I never used it to zero, but I used it below freezing and had no problems. I eventually retired it because the zero degree rating was overkill for my 3 season hiking. I now use a much lighter and smaller western mountaineering caribou MF which I love. I usually sleep hot anyway. Guess I'll have to try it out in the parents' back yard when it gets cold. What gives, it was 44 degrees today in NYC. $#!+.

I highly doubt it's lost any of it's rating, whatever that actually was at the time.

Check the loft. Lay it out zipped up and flat and measure total loft. Feathered Friends is calling 0F 7" of loft. Western Mountaineering is calling 5F 7" of loft. My WM 5F bag has 7" of loft and works for me to about -10F or so. That won't give you the exact answer to how the bag is doing, but I would try it on our trip if you get to about 6-7" of total loft.

so you are saying to measure it while zipped, top and bottom layers, or are you saying to lay it flat on one layer? just want to make sure I do it the right way.

measure both layers when the bag is zipped up and laying flat on the ground. The best spot to measure is at the baffle. If the baffle stitching is 5-6" in several spots and the middle of several baffles is 6-7" I would guess it is good to go. Measure in more than one spot, say shoulders, waist, and knees.

Also check if you can move down around, it is called continuous baffles. If so you can push more down from the bottom of the bag to the top of you if we have a cold night, or leave it even if we have a warm night.

Jeremy, will the fill power matter or does that just determine end weight?

The way I see it it just determines end weight. low quality fill like 600 takes 1 oz to fill 600 cu.in. high quality fill 850 takes 1 oz to fill 850 cu.in. When they fill it they should calculate the total volume they want to fill and divide by the quality of down. That is why I am thinking check the loft. Loft in down bags is the one factor the can equalize bags and quilts for a general rating. There are other factors, oversized bags are harder for your body to warm up, or if there aren't draft collars you will lose heat more easily through zippers or the neck... I would think for the most part all of those other things would impact a bags warmth by a degree or 2 for each negative component. The big one ought to be how many inches of goose down between your body and the cold air.

Many years ago I lived near the Western Mountaineering facility which was both a retail store and also a down product manufacturing room. The door to the down room was air-tight to keep the wispy stuff from floating all over. They had a large transparent plastic cylinder that could be filled up with one ounce of down. There was a plastic cover that dropped down into the cylinder and was supported by the down. Marks on the side of the cylinder marked off what was 600 fill power versus 700, etc.

Once they knew that their raw down met the spec for the particular product, they could fill the baffles on the sleeping bags, parkas, or whatever.

They generally kept the room air conditioned to drive off excess humidity. Humidity can get into the down and weigh it... down.

What do you do when the price of down goes up? The price of down should stay down.

--B.G.--

So what used to be 700 or 800 fp down might now be 500 or 600 fp down based on the conditions of the attic. That would still cause the sleeping bag to loose loft in the down direction. Meaning measuring the loft would still give a ball park temp rating right Bob?

would running it through a dryer, or even a full wash and dry cycle re-invigorate the down? I was under the impression that the fill power of down would only go down it the down itself was damaged but that normal levels of stuff sack "compression" wouldn't be able to do that?

my has this thread SQUIRREL!'ed...

Based off the nice trail link Walter provided (thanks!), I mapped out the entire thing following the blue trail line as closely as possible.

Map Link



-> 1.38mi to melville Nauheim shelter 1st night

-> 8 mi 2nd day to Goddard Shelter
or
9.99 miles 2nd day to get to Glastenbury Summit and back to Goddard Shelter

-> 9.38 miles 3rd day back to trailhead

The Prospect Mountain XC ski area is less than two miles from the trail head at a base elevation of 2250'. You can see the current [unhappy] snow conditions at:
http://www.prospectmountain.com/ConditionsPage.html

I say we all heed Jeremy's advice then and do some snow dances!

My post about hopefully a foot of new by the weekend was for Northern VT not Southern VT. Souther VT, is looking at more winter mix/ snow based on elevation I believe. Light snow through the weekend so they "should" get about a foot by mid next week at the top elevations, down low who knows. The temps keep bouncing back and forth above and below freezing.

I am headed to Killington, VT today. When I am on top of the mountain tomorrow I will do my snow dance there, for proximity to the snow gods and to Glastonbury Mountain.

It has to snow, Santa brought me new snowshoes!

It is incredibly crude and a work in progress. I don't have weights for a lot of things, heck some things haven't even arrived yet, so don't even bother looking at the total weights. :p I also have multiple options for certain things in there as I haven't decided which one to take yet (PL Base vs. PL100 gloves for example).

In any event, I'm open to critiques to improve on my list and hopefully everyone else is planning similarly as I don't want to be odd man out. :p

gear grams list

Thanks!

Edited by bster13 on 12/28/2011 10:40:51 MST.

congrats! I haven't been able to use my new ones either (Nov birthday gift) so I'm with you there =)

I like it Bryce, just a few comments, I am a little nervious about your pads. What is the total R value of the 1/8 ccf pad and neoair?

I also think bringing a narrow mouth platy will make you mad when trying to fill it. I would consider the soft sided wide mouth nalgenes. Easier to fill and almost as light as the platy. I use one of these in the winter, and one hardsided nalgene. The anoying thing is the plastic that nalgene uses is more brittle than the plastic that platapus uses so it does require some extra care.

http://www.rei.com/product/670588/nalgene-wide-mouth-cantene-32-fl-oz


Last one, are you going to wear your quilt with the sleeves while in camp? What is your top puffy for at night?

Winter Pad thread

R value is 4.25 give or take. A little light, still mulling that one over. May drop the GG 1/8th thinlight and go for 1/4in Walmart blue pad as a temp fix for this trip.

I wanted to keep the lightness of my platys if possible, and in mulling over wood stove options, the idea of a "dipping cup" came up as a way to take boiling water out of my Ti pot and transport it into the narrow mouth platy. I agree, having the Vargo Ti pot w/ no handles and trying to get that into a narrow mouth platy, even with a small funnel would be a beotch, but I think I'll be ok with the "dipping cup" idea. This will allow me to keep the Ti pot nice and hot on the fire instead of removing it every so often to dump into a platy.

Wood Stove Test Thread

My Summer JRB Sierra Stealth quilt has a head hole and will be my in-camp puffy layer for my torso. Should be nice and puffy!

I checked your pad thread out. based on your photos I, would go with the a thicker closed cell then the neoair on top and your pack and any clothing you aren't waring under your legs. I would leave the klymit pad at home. Three pads would make me depressed. BUT I think you could make it work with the three pads closed cell first, klymit second, neoair on top and pack under legs somewhere in there.

I don't have a bushcraft log in so i couldn't see the photos but the water cup works, I have one as well that I will bring but I don't think it is on my list. You can pour into a platy mouth I know a guy that does it. It just looks like a PITA to me. You do have to keep the platy close to your body so that the cap doesn't freeze.

What do u mean by depressed? Just a lot of "paddage" to deal with?

The Platys will come with me in the bag, or at least one of them...and then the other will be set on the ground straight up and down such that the mouth of the platy has no water in it to freeze. Then in the morning, pour boiling water in there perhaps to thaw things out? Gotta think that one out a bit more.

I meant really sad.

You actually want to store it the exact opposite. Leave it about 3/4 full, dig a small snow hole about 6" deep and bury it nozzle down so that when water does freeze it freezes at the bottom of the container and not the lid. Picture a lake, it freezes from the top down. It would take a really cold night to freeze 2L solid in 8 hours.

Like I said both are totally doable, I just personally don't like doing it. Worth trying you might not have the same annoyance that I do.

Edited by earn_my_turns on 12/28/2011 12:41:03 MST.

Just bring a standard nalgene, then you can boil water at night and snuggle with it in your sleeping bag. two-fer!

I'm thinking Z-Lite and Pro-lite pads to sleep on...

I will be sleeping with at least one of the Platys... to keep me warm (if I boil water) or to keep it warm (prevent it from freezing).

Bryce, have you seen the Stephenson socks?

I used Google search to crawl BPL for references to them. As I recall they are heavier than the RBHDesigns liners. For this trip I need to pick up oven roaster bags still. Will c how they do.

I should have been more attentive. I live in the Albany area, not far from your get together. Is there room for one more person?

Roleigh

the more the merrier, especially for those with winter hiking experience!

http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/forums/thread_display.html?forum_thread_id=55433&skip_to_post=476535#476535

I have the full stephensons vbl suit that will complete its maiden voyage on our trip. I posted the weight of each item with bad photos and a quick first impression.

vbl isn't really necessary on such a short trip as this, but smaller trips are a good safe time to test it out.

Yup, that was the one. His socks are 3oz. The RBH socks are 4+oz but insulated.

I know RBH used to make a non-insulated VBL (saw it in BPL articles) that were lighter than the Stephenson ones (I think).

If the turkey bags don't work, I'll request RBH uninsulated ones:
http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/00064.html
http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/rbh_designs_vapr_thrm_socks_spotlite_review.html

Bryce, buy a "family pack" I'd be interested in trying them out as well, I'll split costs or offer a trade of wares.

All I know is my feet always get stupid hot when hiking, thus my ability to hike in my Sanuks' in 20deg weather a few weeks ago and still have "too hot" feet, but I am also interested in seeing how a VBL works with feet.

I have and have used snowshoes and microspikes. I also have crampons but have never had to use them yet. I was taught the use of snowshoes and microspikes by experienced hikers this last winter. We just never needed the crampons yet.

Crampons are heavy and I'm hoping we only need snowshoes and microspikes for this hike. Are others bringing crampons? Or just the snowshoes and microspikes?

I think most of us are waiting to see if snow happens or not, and in general what the conditions turn out to be. We're all hoping for snow though so we can get some snowshoe action in.

Lupus, regardless, will be sporting his 4Paws nature designed all terrain walking gear =P

Well I got the last two bags in the store...figures as they prob don't need many after the holidays...sorry Steve. Anyway, these things are HUGE, not sure if others trim them down or what. They certainly are tough though.

I got to play with some firestarters n my new (to me) Littlbug Jr. Some more:

http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/xdpy/forum_thread/57543/index.html


Fun times! :p

Bryce I haven't trimmed the bags before, I just fold them over the top of my socks. It helps hold them in place, some people (myself included) never really have much of an issue with them staying in place for a days worth of hiking. Others, can't keep them from sliding down to their ankles and toes to save their life. I don't think there is a science that proves it one way or another but I wouldn't trim them until you know which camp you fit in.


My bad I didn't realize you bought turkey bags. I read turkey bags but my mind changed it to bread bags. I have never used turkey bags before so ignore what I just typed.

Happy New Year Everyone!!!

Edited by earn_my_turns on 01/01/2012 10:12:07 MST.

Last year when I tried them, I just had them go up to mid-calf. I figure if you want the VB for your feet, why not have it go high up as well? I found some slightly smaller ones at the store the other day, though, so I'll try these for our trip.

Speaking of stoves, I have my old whisperlite, but haven't tested it yet to see if it still works. I'll do that soon, and I'll have to get some white gas before testing. Anyone else need white gas? I'll just bring the whole jug in my car.

While I'm interested in the idea of these, can I question why they would be necessary on a 3 day trek like this? Honestly, the idea of them disgusts me to the core. The idea that you would let your feet stew in their own sweat and liquid rather than letting it out via breathable waterproof liner boot seems not just icky but also really unhealthy for the foot. I get athlete's foot easily, but I can't do a 5 day in thick leather boots without having a problem with my feet in that sense. Once I switched to lighter and more breathable boots, things have been so perfect. I find the more breathable the footwear, the less my feet suffer. True, if the boots got wet it would suck. BUT, then you would just bring extra mountaineering socks, liners, and sleep with the boots in the bag to keep them from freezing, no? And worse case if you didn't want them in your bag couldn't you use boiled water in a water bottle to put in the boot to thaw in the morning? I just can't imagine what would be worse than letting your foot hold onto its moisture, it goes against everything I've learned about foot health, and I think my feet would start to fall apart on the second day. How have your experiences differed from my imagination here?

1) Just wondering about if we've agreed on a meeting time and I haven't found out. I know it will be only 2 miles in the first day on friday, but with borrowing two set of snowshoes I'm wondering about the logistics of timing in regards to getting to the parking lot in time to pick up the snowshoes (if we end up even needing them, with the way the weather is going right now). Any thoughts on this from either Ryan or Bryce ? (Thanks to you both by the way for the loaners)

2) If her work schedule permits, I also may be joined by not only my brother but also my cousin. She has been a professional white water guide in Alaska for the past two summers and has all her own camping gear that would be suitable for 0*. I did warn her that she may be overwhelmed with our lightweight techno-babble (she is a more traditional camper) and be surrounded by guys for the whole hike, but we shall see.

...So I'll be at your place whenever you like on Friday. I figure it's up to the occupants of each car as to when to arrive at the trailhead and then we all meet at the first shelter Friday night.

But if individuals are borrowing gear from another car, then some coordination needs to be made.

Do you like those adjustable poles? They are so light! I didn't buy them when I saw them last year because I thought I might be too heavy for them. How have they held up? If you love them maybe I should give them a try!

I will also be requesting Friday off so I can get in early. Seth, I'll coordinate with you as far as borrowing snowshoes. Aside from that... we'll see.

Adam, I'm a big fan of my LT4's. 3000+ miles on them so far. So glorious. I won't be using them in winter, though. A little too risky for me, although I'm sure they can handle it :)

Adam you aren't wrong in your assumptions. VBL has a very limited range of use before it becomes overkill or as you said disgusting. The best use for it is long term mountaineering, when plastic or thick non-breathable boots are required, and you will be on a longer trip in which if your boots get filled with sweat and freeze solid they will become useless ending the trip abruptly. On any trip less than 3 nights they really aren't necessary. If you can confidently control the amount of moisture that builds up in your boots through technique or the type of boot they aren't necessary. However on a small trip like this VBL socks are perfect to test out to see if you like them and would want to use them on longer or more technical trips where they would be required. This trip is perfect because it is short, conditions shouldn't be to harsh, and if someone decides they don't like them, and takes them off for the rest of the trip nothing is ruined.

How VBL works is that once your feet let out enough sweat to hit a certain moisture level your feet just stop sweating because they can't evaporate heat there anymore. It sounds weird but it does work. The only reason I am wearing VBL on this trip is because I have a new VBL layer that I want to test on this trip and hopefully figure out how to make it work on the rest of my winter trips. The only reason I won't bring it is if the weather is calling for sustained temps well above mid 20's because VBL then becomes dangerously hot and controlling moisture becomes difficult.

The layering of VBL is also a very light weight base/wicking layer, then vbl, then all other clothing over top.

If you go to Andrew Skurka's website he has a much more detailed write up on the science behind VBL.

I work on Friday, I am going to try and get out early, but coming from Jersey, I won't be hitting the trail head until after 7 most likely. Save me some tarp space!

I went skiing this past week and I fell injuring my knee, my upper body went one way while the ski and lower leg stayed put, twisting my knee before the boot kicked out of the binding.

I do not have any swelling, I can support my weight and I can walk up and down stairs. I experience some pain at random moments, I think when my leg experiences side ways pressure or torsion. The pain has yet to be severe. But I am not really sure about the extent of the injury, I am optimistic that I merely strained some of my ligaments and did not tear anything.

Right now I am up in there air if I will be ready for the GTG or not. I am pretty bummed out that this injury occurred, about five seconds after I fell I considered how this would affect my ability to go to hiking in two weeks at the meetup.

I am going to give my self a few more days of total rest and then try and work it out a little to see how it responds. I do not want to be going on the hike if I do not think my leg can handle it.

My fingers are crossed.

Thanks for elaborating. I checked out the Andrew's site I read that but I like your summary better :) It also makes sense to try them out on a shorter trip, duh! I doubt I'd have time to take off work for long enough to do a trip where I'd need them anyway, at least not anytime soon. I'm hoping to get my new winter boots next week so I'll have to take some short hikes to break them in. What date is this outing for now? I can't put together all the different posts in the right order with the dates :)

Weekend of 13Jan2011 - 15Jan2011

I updated the first post to reflect this and some other info for exactly that reason =D

oh no Clint!! fingers crossed for a speedy recovery!

Good Luck Clint, go stick your knee in that fresh snow that fell this weekend it will be back to new in no time.

FYI, tonight, at least in Boston, is calling for overnight temps in the teens and into the negatives with wind-chill, with tomorrow into the high teens w/ wind chill tomorrow night. An excellent opportunity for testing out the cold-weather sleep systems in the backyard.

Snowed lightly yesterday in southern VT, snowing all day today lightly. Should total about 6" up high and down to a dusting at the trail head. Next Thursday there is a chance for a decent storm but it could be mixed precip at lower elevations, lets hope for snow!

I just tested my whisperlite that I haven't used since 2006 (with gas that's been in the bottle since the same time) and it started up like new. I love how these things work :) So we've definitely got one good stove. I've got about a liter and a half of white gas. Does anyone else have white gas? Should we buy a new bottle?

I've confirmed that I have friday through sunday off from work, so I'm going to try to get to the trailhead just after noon to walk up and down the trail and pack a path out for us. Seth, when will you get to the trailhead? I will meet you there to hand off my spare pair of snowshoes.

Flurries in Keene right now (about 50 miles east of our trailhead). I'll keep doing the snow dance for a big dumping before the trip!

I am bringing a 33oz MSR fuel bottle and debating bringing an 11oz bottle as well. If you are bringing one of the large bottles and we have the wood stove and a canister stove I will leave the small bottle behind.

note to self. test stove tonight since I haven't started it since June.

Edited by earn_my_turns on 01/05/2012 14:23:12 MST.

I've got a Jetboil GCS 1.5 L pot set-up that I'm going to bring. I also need to coordinate arriving times with Ryan and Bryce as I am getting snowshoes from each of them. Ryan has the whole day off, as do I and those coming with me --- which includes Bryce ?? I can't remember. But as it stands now (I think) I'll be bringing Bryce, Myself, my twin brother Daniel, and my cousin Lauren in my Outback. Just off the top of my head I was thinking of trying to meet in CT for the carpool around 11am and then head up to the trailhead to hopefully arrive around 1:30pm. Haven't talked it over with anyone yet so feedback from Bryce and Ryan would be good - and I'll make sure my brother and cousin can do that timing or something similiar as well. Other timing suggestions just let me know.

lets rock and roll!!!!

Hi Adam, I love them. The lightest I know of are the Ti Goat poles but they are smaller diameter and I don't like the grips. Blackdiamond have some light ones as well, but they are three section collapsible, not adjustable. Ryan has many, many more miles on his so trust his words, but they have served my heavier (197lbs) self well. They will be with me on the trip with snow baskets from Leki. GL!

Clint...big time suckage, I hope you make it, would be good to see you.

Seth...11am is fine by me. Actually any time you want, if you want to go earlier. I have Friday off.

FWIW...did a training hike on the 2nd in the Catskills. We set out to do 4 x 3500 series peaks, but ended up with three due to some slowers hikers with us who needed help at times over difficult rock/ice scrambles. We finished the hike w/ headlamps due to the slower hikers and a storm coming in, but man did it kick the crap out of my legs. The billions of times I had to lower myself down on large scrambles took it's toll, but I have a feel this hike will be more gentle. Anyway 8mi and 3 peaks wasn't bad for a day...I'm getting psyched!

Hike pics

Edited by bster13 on 01/05/2012 18:47:55 MST.

I'll be in late, I'm gunna try and see if I can get out early from work, but as it stands I'll probably be leaving Boston around 6pm.

my housemate got a kitchen scale, I'm finally officially weight all my stuff!...

She's a VT native and grew up hiking. In fact, her mom is on the Green Mountain Club Board. Also, I'll put money down that she's in better shape than any of the rest of us (combined?). So yea, we won't have to worry about her keeping up.

That said, we'll probably take my Nemo Losi 3p, in case there is anyone that wants to join us and the dog in the tent.

I'm still thinking of picking up the 4qt Al pot from REI...

As shown here:
http://www.prospectmountain.com/ConditionsPage.html

For those that have been on the trail should we bring Microspikes or is it really that gradual a trail that no traction devices are needed?

bring everything in the car?

I don't have crampons or microspikes, but I do have a pair of yaktrax I'll be bringing.

Good question. I have been pondering the same thing and I think I am going to decide what to bring Friday morning, after I see what happens with the storm they are predicting for next thursday-saturday. It doesn't seem like alot of precipitation is going to fall in that time line but the forecast is not sure how the precipitation will fall... Kinda annoyingly tricky. I am not going to bring my crampons because it won't be 100% ice making crampons more annoying than anything. Microspikes might be a great solution, but I don't own a pair. If I take anything it might be nothing at all and walk around nasty sections on the trail. I am even debating throwing my summer footwear in the car and wearing gaiters. Too soon for me to decide. Hope that helps muddy the snow...

Looking at weather for Shaftsbury, VT, if it weren't for next Sat. night, may not need the 0F capability. Hrmm...

yea, was looking at this with the housemate, this trip's turning into a bust as far as a proper winter hike. At least it'll be nice to hit the trail with y'all.

From:
link from Walter

"Upon descending to an old road, the 2-mile trek to the Goddard shelter begins. Departing the winderness, enter the day's first extensive evergreen forest and plod up a series of stone steps. Before long, you arrive at the lean-to, just beyond its water supply. Located 0.3 mile from the summit and roughly halfway along the journey, the Goddard shelter is a perfect place to overnight. Keep in mind, this can be a popular destination, so be prepared to tent nearby. From here, the 0.3-mile jaunt to the summit is straightforward. At the top, seven staircases lead above the forest canopy up the recently renovated tower. While the structure's height and see-through steps can be unnerving, the semmingly endless views enjoyed are well worth the nail-biting effort."

Looking at the Map, I don't see a water source just before the Goddard Shelter. Does anyone else see one on a map? If not, will be interesting finding water for camp the 2nd night....especially is there is no snow to melt. :o

Edited by bster13 on 01/08/2012 21:58:11 MST.

from reading the text, it sounds like Goddard shelter has a water supply of some sort on the other side of the leanto. some googling leads me to believe there is a small water source there, with warnings that in dry seasons it may be dried up. considering it has snowed and rained recently I don't think that would be an issue. I can bring my 4L platypus water tank.

I'm going to try and remember to bring a deck or two of cards, and my folding frisbee to give us keep us entertained at camp, I get the feeling our travel times will be much quicker than previously thought what with the lack of snow and all =(

I think the water supply is before the shelter based off this:

"Before long, you arrive at the lean-to, just beyond its water supply."

It's a small, piped spring about a hundred feet from the shelter. Since it's up around 3600 feet, though, we can be sure that there will be some snow to melt. Maybe not the cleanest snow, but there will most certainly be enough for our purposes.

I would say go for the 0 degree bag, anyway, just in case. I know this is Backpacking LIGHT, but since it's the first winter trip for a lot of folks, it's best to err on the side of caution for now. Plus, like I said, Goddard is close to 3600 feet in elevation, so quite a bit higher than the town of Shaftsbury. Try the point forecast for Glastenbury.

Also, another word of warning, probably more than necessary... For driving into the trailhead, if you're coming from Bennington VT, you'll be turning left soon after a curve, and there's a truck lane going up the hill. This is probably the safer direction to come from. If you're coming from the east on route 9 (like me), the trailhead is a right-hand turn at the bottom of a long hill. Watch out for tailgaters behind you, and icy patches in the road-- the forecast shows rain/snow on thursday and freezing on thursday night. You know how it is.

PS: anyone have a decent thermometer? I'd like to get an accurate impression of the lows while we're out there, just to see how my sleeping bag works ;)

Edited by ryan.c.linn on 01/09/2012 06:39:04 MST.

I don't think we will have to worry about no snow. There will definatly be snow at elevation. No clue what elevation that will be, I haven't been out yet this fall or are we calling it winter now? Anyways light snow tonight, and tomorrow. Then starting late wednesday early thursday the first real winter storm of the season (hopefully) is coming that will last through atleast Friday night. may not all be snow down low but at some elevation it will all be snow, mother nature and I had a talk this weekend and we are good. She loves me. Think snow and get your snowshoes ready positivity is key!

I'll have my watch with me that I carry on my pack. It has a thermometer that I consider relatively accurate. It does not record highs/lows though, you'll just have to sneak a peak every once in awhile. :p

That point forecast is cool. Can def see difference w/ the elevation. 0F bag it is... going to be cold Sat. night:

Saturday: Partly sunny, with a high near 15.

Saturday Night: Mostly cloudy, with a low around 4.


FWIW...I've been on a few hikes in the Catskills doing 3500 peaks and all of them thus far = lots of iced over sections (Microspikes will get the job done) and 1, none, or maybe 2in of snow at most in places. It would not be enough for me to melt or scrape together in a bowl. Granted the 3500 peaks are much more "scrambly" that this hike from what I gather, but similar elevation.

And there is the ski conditions from a resort 2mi from the trailhead according to Walter:
http://www.prospectmountain.com/ConditionsPage.html

This NOAA Page doesn't show much precip either:
NOAA,/a>

updated the first post with the weather links.

I use noaa for generally what might be able to happen. I have found that they are consistently wrong, typically over dramatic. I know none of the weather sites ever get it 100% right but if you say the weather channel is about 75% right, I would put noaa at about half that. The snow depth thing is a cool tool but it only seems to work for a broad estimate, ie how are the entire southern green mountains doing on snow. It doesn't and can't (on the east coast anyway), due to the required work and data storage, take into accound elevation, wind, aspect... believe it or not one of the places I go the most to see how much new snow has fallen is look at ski resorts. They tell you how much they got in the best spot on the mountain so it is a bit optomistic but it does work to tell you if it is snowing light, medium, or heavy, and if you see nothing on their site it is raining ;)

Mt. Snow and Statton Mountain are in close proximity.

weathermen and baseball players...

The weather forcasts keep lower the expected temps for thursday by a few degrees a few times a day. They are now saying it should be a winter mix on thursday when just yesterday it was expected to be mostly rain... Keep doing the snow dance, and turn your heat down at the house, the temps are going to be cold saturday night. It looks like the storm will clear out and we will be sleeping under open skys at 3500' it will be pretty dang cold!

housemate's b/f (also, childhood friend of another housemate...) if joining us, though still trying to source a pair of snowshoes for him just in case...

what's the likely hood that either site's water source will not be frozen? or more directly, would it be worth me bringing the playtypus 4L water tank?

If we have Bryce's water bucket we will be fine.

Looking forward to this trip. Just picked up the Jameson so I know its going to be a good. My cousin's BF may be joining us - they both have all their own gear, but I can coordinate with them to ensure they will be set. I also have a 4L water tank that I can throw in just to be safe (since just my car looks like it will be 5 of us including Bryce -- which we may end up carpooling into 2 cars if the BF shows up.).

Haven't bought Microspikes yet.....any thoughts as to if I should even bother, or just walk around icy sections ? I'm a bit hazy on the trail for this portion we'll be hiking (even though I did just do it...) so don't really know. I will be throwing the snowshoes in the car either way.

Bryce - sounds like 11am meeting in Canton to carpool is a go for my group. Let me know if that still works for you. The assumption is that we'd be at the trail around 1:30pm or so.

oh yea, we probably won't get there till at least 10pm, so save some room for our tent =) we'll also have a couple bottles of wine, but we can save them for night 2.

This is out of control... how many people do we have now? And, more importantly, how many stoves?

Looking forward to some chilly weather. This is going to be great.

Just got a call from my cousin. She pulled a hamstring riding a horse for 6 hours yesterday, and thus she and her boyfriend have backed out. Looks like it will be my brother, myself, and Bryce carpooling up. Bring on the snow !!

I have been nursing my knee and it is feeling better. I was able to work out pain free a few days ago, doing weighted squats and the like.

I still need to be careful twisting it. I went for a walk on Sunday at the beach, went to skip a stone into the ocean my knee reminded me it does not like that kind of torque just yet.

Anyway I am confident I will be able to handle the hike on it, and I am glad I recovered enough to go.


I am going to bring my canister stove with me. And do my best to keep it warm. If that fails there is always fire.

Ryan,

Google Maps has me driving right through Keene. Want to Car Pool? I was planning to get to the trailhead around noon as well.

Heck yeah, I can dig that. You've got my email address, right? I just need to make a stop in Brattleboro on the way...

Speaking of stoves and such, if we have fewer stoves it might make sense to do some group cooking if anybody's into that. Thoughts?

Point forecast from NOAA (yeah, I know...) says high of 5 on Glastenbury Sunday. I bet that sunrise is going to knock our socks off (if the cold doesn't already).

I will be bringing my newly acquired 4qt pot which should allow for faster cooking.

I'm also thinking of bringing my remote canister stove, I want to try some of the tricks I've read about.

I did purchase a 2lb block of aged Cabot cheddar from Costco...

That said, we probably won't be eating dinner Fri night on the mountain since we won't be getting in till late, or we may pack in sandwiches or something.

Ryan, I am right there with you. I am thinking wake up in time to run up to the summit tower and watch the sun rise and then come back down make breakfast, pack up and do the march down the mountain.

I think snowshoes are going to be where its at. All forcasts are pointing to the 100% snow line should be at or a little below 2000'. It also looks like everywhere is only going to be a bit of ice or mixed precip and mostely snow. I will be surprised if there is less than 8-12" of new snow in our high camp. -5 saturday night says NOAA without wind chill, and most others are in that range as well.

Steve the extra stove is a good idea.

PS I have some vodka coming along for the hike which will taste great with the new snow and a bit of ice crust!!!

Clint,

Sorry, I think my mouse (certainly not I :) ) jacked up your location on the memeber map. I think you're in the ocean now.

-Jesse

That's cool I just fixed it, looks like you put James Stewart in the Ocean as well.

Was this done in jest, jester? haha.

I would like to wake up in time for the sunrise sunday, sounds like an awesome plan. Just wondering if my cozy warm self will be able to rise out of the sleeping bag into the cold morning. Now I need to find my alarm watch.

we'll send Lupus around to rouse everyone from their slumber =P

I'm down for sunrise wake-up as well, I'm pretty sure my friends will be as well.

Ryan Email sent.

My brother and I will both be good for a sunrise at the summit ! You can always sleep when you're dead, but you can't always catch a good sunrise. The temps keep going down everytime I come on this forum....I know I'm good down to 0* so hopefully my raw animal willpower will help out with any extra temp drops!

Food will get that extra 5 degrees for sure. That is why I love winter, no one looks at me funny when I am on my 3rd meal of the day by noon becuase they are too.

Bring lots of hot chocolate, too. Hot cocoa with butter = the best.

Sorry fellow BPLers,

Looks like I won't be able to make it for the weekend hike. Bryce, ping me, when another one gets planned though. Have fun you all! I'll look forward to your pics and report afterwards.

Roleigh

with butter?


also, latest Saturday night is showing a low of -10F, and 6" of snow over the weekend!

keep sending the vibes!

Roleigh, bummer, perhaps March? I'd like to get out to the Catskills, may be easier for you?

Edited by TinCanFury on 01/11/2012 22:39:19 MST.

Yes. You'll see. Winter backpacking is like instant through-hiker appetite. Gotta get those calories (especially before bedtime so you stay warm).

so you carry out sticks of butter with you?

I've got enough long term storage to go through I won't bother =P

If the maybes could chime in a and let us know one way or the other it would be appreciated.

COMING and ETA's

Jeremy 9-10pm
Steven 10pm
Steven's Roomate +1 10pm
Lupus (on all 4) 10pm
Bryce 1:30pm
Clint 12pm
Ryan 12pm
Matt ?
Seth 1:30pm
Daniel (Seth's Brother) 1:30pm
Adam ?

MAYBE
Steven's +2?
Jim MacDiarmid (ride from NYC or only one night)
Curtis B.


Not Coming
Barry
Roleigh
Douglas Ide
Walter Carrington
Gerry Volpe


Looks like we have 11 confirmed counting Lupus. If I missed anyone or I have anyone's status wrong please let me know. I compiled this list by anyone who showed interest in going. I would like to get a accurate count of who is coming and ETA's so we are not worrying about anyone.

I am pumped up about this trip, the snow gods have spoken, this will be a WINTER WONDERLAND GTG!

Pack More Be Warm :)

Edited by WalkSoftly33 on 01/12/2012 13:41:45 MST.

Sorry, didn't realize I was being carried as a maybe. I can't make it.

Doug

No worries, I kinda just added anyone that was interested from the beginning onto the list just so we could be sure. There will be another NE GTG.

Thank you for confirming.

I'm sorry but I can't join you this time.
Have a great time and take lots of pictures.
I think I'll try a shorter, easier winter trip soon.
Prospect Mountain got 3" to 5" of new snow and this seems to be an elevation dependent storm so I'd guess more than that higher up.
Walter

Walter,

Thats cool, I understand. Thanks for getting back to me. I hope to see you again at a future GTG.

Yea I am glad there will be some new snow on the mountain, now I get to use my new snowshoes!

Clint

I should be at the trail head between 9-10. Will there be atleast one stove there for you early arrivals?

...whoops.

As for group cooking/melting, I'll only have a .9l pot with me, but my wood stove (Littlbug Jr.) will crank all night provided we gather wood together to feed it. It CRANKS heat. I will have the water bucket thingy with me.

I am game for sunrise hike to the summit...but...I am known to sleep through alarms. I will have my watch with me, but I may sleep through it. Please wake me up.

7:21am Friday (EST) - Sunrise in Glastenbury, VT

@Ryan, my bad, looked at the specs of my watch, it's only good to 14F. haha.

@Seth, see you @ 11 in Canton.

@Everyone... point forcast is down to -11F now. :o Hrmm.. a 16F bag with a 40F bag layers inside for 2.9lbs (with down pants and slippers) or a -25F bag @ 3.7oz. Thoughts?

I'll be packing tonight, but my final gear list is only 95% there.

Thanks Jeremy

I think Ryan has his whisperlite and I am bringing my canister stove.