As you know, when you are going light you sometimes just have to make do. A head net instead of a tent, dried instead of fresh foods etc.

To help stay dry with a tiny tarp, here are some more techniques.

Things to pull over the foot section of the bag (generally in acute weather conditions,
not three weeks of monsoon).
1. Large volume pack
2. Raincoat zippered and pulled on like mini bivy
3. VBL used on the outside (jacket or sleeping liner)
4. A ground sheet with a short section of fabric sewn to form a foot bivy or elephants foot


Find or assemble natural shelter to augment what you brung.

Other hikers- combine shelters for more space.

And sometimes you just have to pack up your sleeping stuff and sit out a big storm.

Edited by oware on 11/16/2011 11:37:27 MST.

Couple of random thoughts of how I ended up where I have.... (I reserve the right to change my mind! :p)

-I started with a GoLite Poncho Tarp and no bivy. I tended to only go backpacking when the weather was good and when it did rain is was light. I ~still~ sh_t myself worrying about my down bag those night as I was sleeping under a postage stamp and I got VERY lucky that my bag did not get wet. As I got more serious I realized my shelter protection was severely lacking and hiking in the NE with rock scrambles, roots, and places where I had to see my feet on the trail, the Poncho wasn't cutting it either.

-I've never liked bivies. I found them expensive, heavy (unless you go with .33 SULUK bivy, then I would cry the day I put a hole in it w/ no groundsheet), read about condensation problems (though I admit, never tried one). They do however prevent drafts so your sleeping bag is warmer, but I'd rather just pitch the tarp three sides to the ground to stop the wind.

-I bought the BearPaw Cub Den 1.5 because it was inexpensive as compared to the Hexamid, it had bonded seams, was larger (I really thought the Hexamid would not cover me for gusty rain in the NE w/out the extended beak...then u give back most of the weight advantage) and could be delivered quicker. I also liked that it had permiter netting as opposed to netting underneath that I feared would wear out over time. The Cub Den 1.5 gives great coverage but at a price...it takes up a lot of real estate to pitch with all those guy lines going everywhere. I also didn't like the fact that I have to carry the permiter netting even in the Fall when I don't need bug protection. And while the Cub Den 1.5 is holding up fine, the bonding is certainly more complicated on/near stress points.

-I started to evaluate CF shelters/Tarps that I did not have to carry bug protection 24/7. I settled on a 9x7 tarp for a few reasons:

1) smallest tarp (least weight) while not needing bivy
2) Flexible pitches to use natural wind breaks
3) Need less real estate to pitch that Cub Den 1.5
4) Can pitch bug shelter alone in AT Shelter if I want
5) Total system weighs less
6) Can pee out the side in the middle of the night. :p
7) Costs less
8) Less complex construction (more durable?)
9) Can more fully utilize Bag liner (trash compactor/nylofume bag) as lower leg bivy while dropping weight elsewhere (the tarp itself :p)

My comparison spreadsheet:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AhjLmk_trl6BdFMwQnljc1ZaVlVXM1M2NVZnbXdRbEE

Here I am in my Cub Den 1.5, you can see the trash compactor bag on my legs to prevent spray that was coming in on the side/opening through the mesh (It was calm when we went to bed, if I knew the heavens would open up, I would of pitched lower). I now use the same technique w/ my tarp. My legs are at the OPEN end of my a-frame when I pitch three sides to the ground. The nylofume/trash compacor bag takes care of spray from the open end.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E0YsRC4L4VU
(BPL member, Roleigh Martin's Hexamid Twin is the "green thing" :p)

"It would be interesting to get his opinion on CF, but even if he becomes a convert it would probably be difficult for him to market a CF tarp kit, because of the learning curve involved in working with Cuben. Silnylon is quite a bit more forgiving, so it makes a lot more sense than Cuben for a DIY kit."

Very true... I was half just poking fun at Ray. His Kit was a great bonding experience with my (quilting) mother. We made the two person (silly me thought a girl would join me under it some day haha) and his quilt kit. I now keep the quilt in my car for emergencies.

Hey Bryce,
The couple times I put the foot end of my sleeping bag in a non-breathable bag, I found the condensation inside the trash bag to be worse than any splash I might have experienced otherwise. It was enough to dissuade me from ever trying again. Has this been an issue for you? How many times have you tried it?
Ike

I guess it's a balance. There definitely is the potential for condensation in there, but I guess you have to pick the lesser of two evils. In my experience, the rain that was blowing in was worse. Of course with a good DWR on your bag, the blown in rain/mist may be less of a problem vs. condensation depending on the situation.

That said, I think a way to mitigate/eliminate the condensation would be VBLs on your feet. This is something I am going to try (for warmth alone) in the colder months.

I have tried the nylofume bag on my feet ~5 times now with no problems, but of course my feet may perspire differently than others. 2 of those times were in bad rain during the hot summer.

Edited by bster13 on 11/16/2011 15:08:39 MST.

"Very true... I was half just poking fun at Ray. His Kit was a great bonding experience with my (quilting) mother. We made the two person (silly me thought a girl would join me under it some day haha) and his quilt kit. I now keep the quilt in my car for emergencies."

You just lead me to start thinking about it, because before ordering the silnylon 4-season tarp from OES, I inquired about a SpinnUL version of it, and Brian said that the last batch he'd gotten didn't meet his standards for waterproofness... but Cuben, as nice a fabric as it is, still has some downsides, like the quirks of how to bond/stitch it without compromising the fabric, the fact that it's vulnerable to punctures and abrasion, and certainly not least because it's so expensive.

Hopefully, we'll start seeing some newer fabric options... maybe like the silnylon/Cuben hybrid that HMG developed? :)

I do not know much about Spinn other than it is lighter than Sil and heavier than CF and there have been bad batches in the past (GG "The One" shelter comes to mind, but I have no direct knowledge).

As for CF, it's been absolutely waterproof for me while sitting in the rain for hours. I think some people mistake condensation for the fabric letting water through. Bonding it should be stronger than sewing, but I have bought my CF equipment thus far, so I'd be the last to advise on best practices there. :p When considering punctures and abrasions, I'll just say that it patches well with duct tape or tenacious tape (Sil does not) and I'm not sure how well it resists abrasion as I'm not draping it over me as I bushwhack. :p In fact, I never expect any sort of punctures or abrasions to my CF Shelters as my shelter is stationary... unless a tree branch falls, there is little chance of damaging it IMO. I'm more worried (well haven't had anything to worry about yet with .51) about stressing the fabric (like a .33). But yea, it def is the premium fabric these days and carries and premium price.

Hopefully we ~will~ see some new fabrics come out...that are lighter AND cheaper~ haha. :)

> The couple times I put the foot end of my sleeping bag in a non-breathable bag, I found the condensation inside the trash bag to be worse than any splash I might have experienced otherwise.

Ditto though I've only tried it once. That was enough. I normally pull my DriDucks jacket over the foot of my bag, but I was trying it out in my pillow sack. Perhaps your nylofume breathes some? I'm not familiar with that material. I've thought of trying my pack (GoLite Pinnacle) but even though it's volume is large is seems like the circumference would compress the down. I guess I should actually test it and see.

Back on topic, my tarp is 6x8 (half pyramid) and I don't use a bivy either. When I pitch it to the ground it's pretty tight lengthwise. I also made a "storm door" in case it gets really bad or wind shifts. I'd prefer a 5x9 or 6x9.

Edited by topshot on 11/16/2011 19:36:54 MST.

As forecasted, yesterday afternoon we had a strong storm system move through. We got about 45 minutes of drenching rain with gusty winds. Since my MYOG 6x9 tarp was still pitched in the back yard, I kept an eye on the radar then dropped by the house before the storm arrived. The timing was perfect, I got under the tarp about 15 minutes before the storm came through.

I just hung out and noted the degree to which mist & spray entered the tarp depending on the intensity of the rain & wind. It was informative. I see how being able to put something up at the end of the tarp getting the wind can make a big difference, even if it's just improvised like David O. says. The wind shifted multiple times and spray entered from alternate ends of the tarp. I also am convinced that given cuben's light weight, I am willing to add a couple of ounces to the tarp in order to make a roomy setup.

I noticed one strange thing in that I would get little droplets of water showing up in the center area of the tarp. I had a small Sea to Summit silnylon stuffsack with me, and I could see small droplets appear on its smooth surface. I also noticed an occasional droplet on my neck or face. Either my MYOG had some pinholes or the rogue droplet was bouncing a loooong way from the edge of the tarp. It made me think that an unprotected down bag could get damp over the course of an all-night rain, even under good tarp coverage.

Is there some particular recommendation for stowing a cuben tarp, i.e. roll it as much as possible and don't fold it? I recall from that old, long thread on cuben's waterproofness that people are saying every time you scrunch cuben, you decrease waterproofness.

"I noticed one strange thing in that I would get little droplets of water showing up in the center area of the tarp."

Sounds like condensation, especially that far into the tarp.

As for storing Cuben. I used to stuff it, but found that folding/rolling took up less volume so that is what i do. Not sure on longevity...different theories on that out there.

What size tarp would you suggest for a beginner, never tarped before, likes lots of room, and is 6' tall?

7 x 10. 7 x 1.5 if you are really worried. :p

Make one (or more) out of cheap polyethylene drop cloth, either 2mil or 3mil thickness. Experiment before you buy one of sil or cuben. This has proven very useful for me.

I have been carrying a 5x8 poncho tarp all this year and finally had the chance to use it in rain this past weekend. I think 7x9 sounds ideal. I was not entirely comfortable with the 8 foot length even though I used a bivy and I am sure the extra width would really help with gear storage and safety margins.

This is a great topic. I have no insight to offer other than I my first tarptent was a floorless Henry Shires Virga. It had a beak at the time and I have used it in some horrid storms, some in the open and the beak was a wonderful addition. However, I had to keep the tarp low in the roughest of weather. Now that I am older and don't like to crawl like a dog into my shelter, I went with the free-standing Hubba...and now I am back trying out the single-wall shelters. I miss 'being outside' and am trying different tarps.

Recently I have been playing around with a cheap tarp and trying different configurations and am liking the half pyramid. I was using a 6x8 and being 5'2", with ends tucked under, I could get by and am working on getting doors or some sort of closure for rain. This weekend I am heading out for the hills and bringing an 8x10 tarp and see how it works out. I think that would be my go-to size. I can have cooking space in a storm, scoot down towards the back and still keep the front open unless the wind shifts.

I am looking to MYOG tarp next.

just my 2 cents.

I was thinking about this as a way to try it out http://www.campmor.com/outdoor/gear/Product___20069

But maybe a plastic drop cloth would be an even better idea.

I use the SMD Meteor bivy for bug, ground cloth and spray/splash reasons. It gives me have enough coverage to keep my tarp size down to a 5x9 and still feel I have good protection.

I will use a 9x9(or 8x10) tarp if I don't need the Meteor bivy and I expect conditions.

The size and square shape of the 9x9 gives me lots of pitch options and plenty of coverage. I don't think I have ever used an a-frame pitch with it. Other pitches always seem better because of its shape.
Flying diamond or half pyramid variations are quicker to pitch and tear down.

The size allows three sides to the ground with headroom and enough overhang to allow a change of sleeping positions during the night without having to re-pitch when the wind direction changes during a storm.

I'm still not sure I can accept the extra weight though, but I sure like how well I sleep through rainstorms when I use it:-)

I'd love to see more commentary on square vs. rectangular tarps & the pitches a square unit offers. The main neato setup with a square seems to be the "flying diamond". But the square diamond pitches I've seen look woefully vulnerable to blowing rain at the entrance:







The diamond is open and airy, but there's no reason I can't set up a rectangle that's open and airy. I've seen Clelland!'s 'bomb shelter' square setup, but I seriously doubt I'd go to the trouble (have you seen the rigging on that thing?).

As far as vulnerability of the flying diamond:

1) With a 9x9, you can get way back inside, away from the opening
2) You don't have to pitch a flying diamond high like the pictures shown and can drop it down if needed
3) two sides can be tight to the ground so no wind won't blow through the back corner, keeping rain or snow near the front entrance.

The big advantage that I like about a 9x9 in flying diamond is the very quick setup and reasonably good coverage. Sometimes you don't want to mess with more complex pitches if the weather forecast is reasonably calm.

If wind were an issue, I'd pitch in one of the many storm pitches. The Oware site comes to mind for an example, but there are others.

Edited by brooklynkayak on 11/22/2011 15:50:30 MST.

What's a good layout for square tarp guy points? Looks like having some along the centerline is important, more so than for rectangles.