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Sean Rhoades
(kingpin)

Locale: WV
help with attempt at DIY butane stove on 11/10/2011 14:41:41 MST Print View

Hello everyone,
I'm new to the forum and have recently been fooling around with alcohol an butane/propane stoves. But I'm having trouble getting a nice blue flame from my butane projects. I think it may be my jet size, but honestly I don't know. Here's a diagram that represents what I have going on. Oh my jet size on the last attempt was 3/64" or 1.19mm

stove

Any insight on why I'm having trouble would be greatly appreciated.

Edited by kingpin on 11/10/2011 14:43:16 MST.

Roger Caffin
(rcaffin) - BPL Staff - MLife

Locale: Wollemi & Kosciusko NPs, Europe
Re: help with attempt at DIY butane stove on 11/10/2011 14:46:45 MST Print View

Typical jet size for canister stove is about 0.28 - 0.30 mm diameter. A larger jet means a slower air flow which means nowhere near enough air pulled in.

You might like to note that with a subscription ($25/yr) you can access our vast range of technical articles on canister stoves, their use, their performance, and so on. Most of them were written by me, but some good ones were written by Will Rietveld as well.

Chers
Roger Caffin
Senior Editor for Technology

Hikin' Jim
(hikin_jim)

Locale: Los Angeles, CA, USA
Re: help with attempt at DIY butane stove on 11/10/2011 15:02:16 MST Print View

The jet size does sound a bit too large, but the project sounds interesting. Got any photos?

HJ
Adventures in Stoving

Sean Rhoades
(kingpin)

Locale: WV
re:help with attempt at DIY butane stove on 11/10/2011 15:36:15 MST Print View

Hey, thanks fellas. I appreciate the input. I'll see about posting some pics once I get things back together. Also, I'm waiting on some smaller drill bits to arrive in the mail.

Edited by kingpin on 11/10/2011 15:44:13 MST.

Josh Leavitt
(Joshleavitt) - F

Locale: Ruta Locura
Jet size on 11/10/2011 22:44:50 MST Print View

Sean

Many jets are built with thin brass foil that is pierced to get those tiny holes in them. If you are going to drill your own in solid material, use a larger bit that just almost breaks through. Then punch through with the tiny drill. We use to do this when we built large vacuum molds. .125" holes on the cnc that almost broke though, then we pushed .015" drills through with finger pressure chucks. Takes awhile to do 200 of those :-)

Or you can buy a jet here http://www.ministeam.com/acatalog/Burners.html a No. 8 should work good.

Terry Trimble
(socal-nomad) - F

Locale: North San Diego county
help with attempt at DIY butane stove on 11/11/2011 09:25:44 MST Print View

I use to convert natural gas appliances to propane you will need the right size jet for butane stove. Also try a metal 1/2 or 3/4 rotating ring that covers some of the air holes to adjust the air flow to the burner till you get the right size and clean burning stove.

You might buy a old butane stove and hack some of the parts for your project.I would also use a at least 12 inch feed line with a metal shield between the canister and the stove. Wear protective welders mask leather gloves and non flammable long sleeve shirt before lighting the stove.

Because all gas stove can release and build up gas in the fuel tube and in the air around the stove and it can possibly blow up.
I learned this the hard way lighting water heater when I was a teen working in the family owned appliance store and had to relite all the gas appliances in apartment blew up in my face.I lost all facial hair,front half of my long hair and hair on my arms.

Always remember the golden rule of playing with fire: Play with fire safely.
Terry

Edited by socal-nomad on 11/11/2011 09:27:05 MST.

Alan Bradley
(ahbradley)
Model steam engine gas burners: usuable as is? on 11/11/2011 13:36:20 MST Print View

http://www.clevedonsteam.co.uk/products.html#Gas Can Valve

and "No 8 Gas Jet Holder pipe for model steam boilers"

and "Firetube Burner for model steam boilers and Cheddar locos"

are these enough on their own for a cone burner? I wonder

Is the brass gas tube meant to cope with repeated flexing?

Roger Caffin
(rcaffin) - BPL Staff - MLife

Locale: Wollemi & Kosciusko NPs, Europe
Re: Model steam engine gas burners: usuable as is? on 11/11/2011 19:26:48 MST Print View

No brass tube is meant to handle repeated flexing. It will fracture.

Cheers

Hikin' Jim
(hikin_jim)

Locale: Los Angeles, CA, USA
Re: Model steam engine gas burners: usuable as is? on 11/13/2011 09:42:05 MST Print View

Alan:

Most fuel lines are made out of something flexible rather than rigid like brass. Take a look at an Optimus, Primus, or MSR stove. Usually it's some kind of flexible tubing that is used which is then covered with woven wire sheath. That seems to be the standard for something that needs to flex.

HJ
Adventures in Stoving

Alan Bradley
(ahbradley)
flex fatigue on 11/13/2011 16:26:45 MST Print View

Thanks.

HJ / Roger Caffin:

I was just checking as otherwise those steam engine burner parts could be used as is :

I had though it might possibly be OK because I would have thought the canister end would be exposed to flexing and because of a TB BPL stove using stainless steel tubing.
But, as you have informed me, the brass tubing is unsuitable for stove use; which is a pity.

Hikin' Jim
(hikin_jim)

Locale: Los Angeles, CA, USA
Re: flex fatigue on 11/13/2011 17:59:17 MST Print View

Hi, Alan,

I'd be a little careful mentioning my name in the same breath as Roger's. Roger has a PhD and from what I've read has built a lot of his own stoves whereas all I know is a little theory and what I've seen on production stoves. It's sort of like mentioning the country preacher's name in the same breath as St. Peter's. Yes, we're talking about the same thing, but we're not at the same level!

But I do appreciate the compliment.

HJ
Adventures in Stoving

Edited by hikin_jim on 11/13/2011 18:01:02 MST.

Bob Gross
(--B.G.--) - F

Locale: Silicon Valley
Re: Re: flex fatigue on 11/13/2011 18:09:28 MST Print View

Maybe the difference is in the semantics. A fuel tube seems to be a solid/rigid metal tube, and it is not going to stand up to much or any flexing. A fuel line seems to be a flexible/woven sheath over an inner plastic tube.

I spent a great deal of my career halfway between the marketing department and the engineering department, and I was busy translating between the two languages.

--B.G.--

Sean Rhoades
(kingpin)

Locale: WV
re: jet size on 11/13/2011 20:47:00 MST Print View

You know I've been searching the net for small brass fittings and such, and never thought to look into steam engine sites. Great links guys, this stuff could be just what I was looking for. Though, I would rather not buy a whole lot for my projects, now I know where to look when I'm stuck at least. I did just buy an $11 stove to gut for parts and a few random bits from coleman.com though :)

Hikin' Jim
(hikin_jim)

Locale: Los Angeles, CA, USA
Re: re: jet size on 11/13/2011 22:19:37 MST Print View

Hi, Sean,

I hope you'll post a few pics when appropriate and when you get time.

HJ
Adventures in Stoving

Sean Rhoades
(kingpin)

Locale: WV
re:re:re: jet size on 11/14/2011 00:38:25 MST Print View

I'm hoping to get it working properly here soon. I really want to clean up my system for controlling the butane from the canister. It's functional but quite ugly. I will defintely get pics up here in the near future though.

Roger Caffin
(rcaffin) - BPL Staff - MLife

Locale: Wollemi & Kosciusko NPs, Europe
Re: flex fatigue on 11/14/2011 02:45:43 MST Print View

Hi Alan

Yeah, I know TB has used some small-bore annealed SS tubing on some of his stoves. I still say they too will fracture in time! I think he is now using some PFA tubing and SS braid I sold him to make his hoses.

Cheers

Sean Rhoades
(kingpin)

Locale: WV
first try pics on 11/15/2011 13:15:20 MST Print View

@Hiking Jim
Well sir, they aren't pretty but here's my first go at MYOG butane stove.stove

I've managed to procure some better looking parts and now I aim to make a better stove with these.new parts

Hikin' Jim
(hikin_jim)

Locale: Los Angeles, CA, USA
Re: first try pics on 11/15/2011 17:14:02 MST Print View

Hey, it all has to start somewhere, right? Larry Penberthy (founder of MSR) started out with a better idea, and the rest is history.

Now, what kind of canister is that tall one, and what is in it? Propane/butane/isobutane? What brand, what percentages, and where did you get it?

Those components look very Coleman to me, particularly the pre-heat loop, yes? :)

HJ
Adventures in Stoving

Sean Rhoades
(kingpin)

Locale: WV
re:re: first try pics on 11/16/2011 23:45:39 MST Print View

The canister is just butane from Walmart I believe, Ronson brand. I'm wanting to use the iso canisters or at least propane/butane mix, but need a lindal connection of some sort. And yes the miscellaneous parts are Coleman, burner and pre-heat tube thing.

Edit: The parts are from one of the Colemans that used the Powermax cans.

Edited by kingpin on 11/16/2011 23:48:18 MST.

Alan Bradley
(ahbradley)
flexable hose vs rigid on 11/17/2011 04:16:26 MST Print View

Roger Caffin said
"used some small-bore annealed SS tubing on some of his stoves. I still say they too will fracture in time! I think he is now using some PFA tubing and SS braid"


Perhaps a stove with solid rigid pipe would have an advantage over a flexible cable
(if don't mind always in liquid mode, even at start up)... reintroduces following idea

http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/forums/thread_display.html?forum_thread_id=56523

Edited by ahbradley on 11/30/2011 04:28:12 MST.