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Samuel C. Farrington
(scfhome) - M

Locale: Chocorua NH, USA
bag baffles - lingerie? on 11/06/2011 18:11:01 MST Print View

After trying to come up with an alternative to baffles for a sleeping bag, the thought came that the very light stretchy gossamer material used for lingerie might work well.

Has anyone tried this, or had any experience using it for this purpose?

If not, does anyone know what lingerie is the lightest? - the most durable?
Or if the material can be purchased as yard goods anywhere?

Hoping someone can provide info that will save me from hunts through lingerie departments. It is bad enough the reception I get at the sewing store. And please don't tell me I should develop a thicker skin. That was shed long ago.

Steven Evans
(Steve_Evans) - MLife

Locale: Canada
Re: bag baffles - lingerie? on 11/06/2011 18:57:56 MST Print View

Might want to check out "tulle", used on wedding veils (sp?). I know some people have used it as a mosquito net in the past. Fragile but very light weight. I have no experience with it other than what I have read. Good luck.

Roger Caffin
(rcaffin) - BPL Staff - MLife

Locale: Wollemi & Kosciusko NPs, Europe
Re: Re: bag baffles - lingerie? on 11/07/2011 02:11:39 MST Print View

Yeah, I used tulle on my blue summer tent, just to test it. Expected it to last a year or two. Well, the tent is over 6 years old now and that tulle is still there. A couple of small patches, but that's all.
Hum - makes some of the rugged mil-spec netting look grossly overweight, like canvas.

Cheers
PS: old saying: "Father, cut your toenails, you're tearing mother's nightie."

Edited by rcaffin on 11/07/2011 02:12:03 MST.

Samuel C. Farrington
(scfhome) - M

Locale: Chocorua NH, USA
baffles on 11/07/2011 18:34:44 MST Print View

Roger and Steven,

Thank you for the info about tulle. Never heard of the stuff, but will look for it at some fabric outlets. Am hoping to find something around 1/2 oz/sq/yd ( <14 gm/sq/m).

My thought is that baffles of the elastic lingerie, however, will not tear when the bag is stuffed or pushed out of shape, will work better with differential cut, and may be less likely to compress the compartments/insulation when the bag is folded around the body. The conventional alternative is to place pleats in the baffles, which is OK, and would work with the tulle; but I'm hoping to expand the envelope a bit, so to speak.

I understand that the lightest such material is referred to by how "sheer" it is, and plan to search for it using that term. With luck, it will be available as yardgoods. If not, then a bit more of a challenge. Taking the little thousandths of an ounce battery powered scale into the lingerie shop may strike some as a little strange, and I may have some explaining to do. But it should quickly become evident how light the material is.

The big danger, as I understand it, is "runs" in the material, which should not be a problem when it is completely encapsulated within the sleeping bag.

The plan is to use a synthic insulation, like Thinsulate Liteloft, for example, and place batts of it into baffled compartments as is done with down, allowing the synthetic to expand to its full insulative potential, without stitching it to the shell. Also, in this way 6 denier fabric can be used without worrying about the problem of down penetrating the shell.

Will report on the results. Thanks, again.

Steven Evans
(Steve_Evans) - MLife

Locale: Canada
Re: Re: Re: bag baffles - lingerie? on 11/07/2011 21:46:48 MST Print View

Ahh, the stretchy stuff. Good idea. Is tulle stretchy? I have no idea. What about hacking up a bunch of sheer nylons? That stuff is seriously light and definitely stretchy. Keep us posted.

Roger Caffin
(rcaffin) - BPL Staff - MLife

Locale: Wollemi & Kosciusko NPs, Europe
Re: Re: Re: Re: bag baffles - lingerie? on 11/08/2011 00:17:37 MST Print View

> Is tulle stretchy?
Not really.

With some fabrics you can get runs once a single thread is broken. The tulle I have used had an interesting sort of lockstick in the knit, and it did NOT run. Now stockings ... I am led to believe they do run.

The tulle I used was single-filament, but that meant the filament was relatively thick (for a filament) and correspondingly non-snagging. It turned out quite tough.

Cheers

patrick agius
(Streamline) - F
baffles on 11/08/2011 07:31:52 MST Print View

Why not use noseeum or nanoseeum netting. I have used this for my hammock underquilts and they work great. Also shouldn't you be able to figure out what the max expansion will be and just make the baffles match? Differential cut will help with this as well.

Jeffs Eleven
(WoodenWizard) - F

Locale: Greater Mt Tabor
Re: baffles on 11/08/2011 10:09:25 MST Print View

Aww man I was thinking this was gonna be about insulated bras and panties. Puffy bras- lol I dont know what I think about that

Samuel C. Farrington
(scfhome) - M

Locale: Chocorua NH, USA
baffles on 11/08/2011 23:48:52 MST Print View

Jeff, it is about that. You just have to look from the right perspective, like one of those pictures with the spaceship in it.

patrick,
'nanonoseeum' .8 oz/sq/yd netting was considered. But the sheer nylons are a lot stretchier, and might be lighter. It also didn't seem to make much sense to sew a bag with a 6 denier, .67 oz shell, and use baffles of heavier material.

Roger Caffin
(rcaffin) - BPL Staff - MLife

Locale: Wollemi & Kosciusko NPs, Europe
Re: baffles on 11/09/2011 01:59:36 MST Print View

> Why not use noseeum or nanoseeum netting.
Cause it's awful heavy compared to what else is available.

Cheers

Dan Durston
(dandydan) - M

Locale: Cascadia
Baffles on 11/09/2011 23:33:55 MST Print View

What about cuben (likely .48 or .51) like Zpacks and others are using? It's plenty strong which is nice not to have to worry about that. Or just use more of your 6D shell fabric. I personally feel a bit nervous about 0.33oz cuben for anything important (besides clothing stuff sacks) but I think I'd still rather have that then tulle. 0.48 or 0.51oz cuben I would feel really good about.

My new quilt uses 0.75oz shell fabric (M55), 900fp down and 0.51oz cuben, but I can't really offer any advise based on this quilt yet, as I won't have it in my grubby little hands until friday.

Edited by dandydan on 11/09/2011 23:35:23 MST.

Samuel C. Farrington
(scfhome) - M

Locale: Chocorua NH, USA
baffles on 11/10/2011 16:18:45 MST Print View

Dan,
The intent is to have something super stretchy, to limit constriction of the insulation when the bag is folded around moi. The theory is that good quality puffy synthetic insulation will have better insulation-to-weight value if it can maintain its full loft at all points and times (except when you're lying on top of it). That's why I'm leaning toward the 3M LiteLoft, because it appears to have more loft than PrimaLoft for a given weight, and also has the fine Thinsulate fibers that provide insulative value when compressed thin. Also, because I have a lot of it lying around - so why spend $ on something else.

Besides not being even a little stretchy, cuben would make a racket, and the .33 oz stuff does not hold stitching well-I think the baffles would tear out with use, definitely with washing. Washability is one of the major justifications for using synthetic insulaton. And no, I'm not going to try to glue on baffles with that messy Hysol stuff. Liked your pullover, though. Let us know how the SeamGrip holds up.

Stay tuned.

Edited by scfhome on 11/10/2011 16:21:42 MST.

Samuel C. Farrington
(scfhome) - M

Locale: Chocorua NH, USA
bag baffles - lingerie on 11/14/2011 20:05:20 MST Print View

The first material tested is hosiery of nylon and spandex that has amazing four-way stretch, and would work perfectly to float two shells with a differential cut; but unfortunately, it weighs around 1.5 ounces per square yard. So the search is on for lighter hosiery. Not too optimistic, as I fear much lighter material might just be way too fragile for apparel. Yes, guess one of you did allude to that. But haven't quite given up, yet.

Samuel C. Farrington
(scfhome) - M

Locale: Chocorua NH, USA
bag baffles - lingerie on 11/18/2011 21:22:42 MST Print View

Well, found what looks to be the right stuff at extremtextil.de
They sell it for use as insect netting, but white? Doesn't matter for baffles.

http://www.extremtextil.de/catalog/Mosquito-Net-polyamide-140-mesh-qcm-17g-sqm-superultralight::1565.html

17 grams/sq.meter (0.5 oz/sq/yd), but not sure how stretchy. They say it doesn't hold its shape very well, and "buckles" instead of tearing. Could "buckles" be a poor translation of stretches ... or distorts? Am trying to order some. Problem finding an inexpensive way to pay, (paypal problems, etc.) but they are as helpful as could be expected, under the circumstances.

Rob Hubbard
(robwa10) - F

Locale: England
17 gram netting on 11/19/2011 18:17:42 MST Print View

I've used this in a bug bivy I made this summer. What they mean by buckles is that will not lay flat easily in small pieces, it likes to roll in on itself. I'd say it would probably be similar structurally to a large roll of the material they use for panty hoses, etc. The material is annoyingly flexible. So was annoying when marking, it's hard to get a straight line.

In terms of stretchiness it was similar to normal netting, maybe a little more stretch. I'm considering making a Karo Step summer quilt with baffles out of the group buy material and will probably use the material for the baffles as the netting was just to annoying. But it did make a reasonable weight bug bivy. I will have to find photos and post them.

Bob Gross
(--B.G.--) - F

Locale: Silicon Valley
Re: 17 gram netting on 11/19/2011 18:43:55 MST Print View

"I'd say it would probably be similar structurally to a large roll of the material they use for panty hoses, etc. "

I guess you need a hose clamp for panty hose.

--B.G.--

Samuel C. Farrington
(scfhome) - M

Locale: Chocorua NH, USA
17 gram netting on 11/19/2011 19:13:52 MST Print View

Rob,

Thank you for the info in your post. That confirms that the material is just the thing for bag or quilt baffles.

If you know of an on-line supplier in the UK, would appreciate your posting the name.
I've had no trouble ordering items on line from the UK with a credit card, but am going to have to snail mail an expensive international money order to ExtremTextil in Dresden, which could take a long time before the material is delivered.

Thanks.

Oh, and Bob - Your joke about the sox was a good one. But the boys will be boys stuff - yawn.

Rob Hubbard
(robwa10) - F

Locale: England
Re: 17 gram netting on 11/20/2011 13:10:52 MST Print View

Samuel unfortunately for you I ordered it from the same company you found it at.

Samuel C. Farrington
(scfhome) - M

Locale: Chocorua NH, USA
17 gram netting on 11/20/2011 18:50:55 MST Print View

Rob,
Not at all. Thanks agian for the info and follow-up. To the bank tomorrow to check the price of an international money order payable in Euros.