So, I've been watching "I Shouldn't Be Alive" and there have been a few instances where the person who shouldn't be alive, through a series of very unfortunate events were parted from the majority of their gear. So, if you were left with only the clothes on your back and items on your person, how well would you fare?

Part of what I have on me every single day whether in the office or in the outdoors is a good 4" blade tactical folder, an exotac nano striker on my key-chain (just cuz it's cool), and a Fresnel lens magnifier in my wallet (saw it on the counter at the UPS store, was only $1 so I picked it up)... Other than that I often have some length of paracord in my pocket, since I'm a knot tying enthusiast and like practicing in my spare time. Oh- and a small AAA flashlight form County-Comm... Fantastic for the price...

So, at the very least I'm sure I could have a fire going. The knife is sturdy enough to prepare tidner and kindling, and with the rest of my junk I have at least three possible ways to start a fire...and maybe could fashion a snare if I needed to. Dunno about an emergency shelter though- never had the opportunity to learn how to build one.

BM

"So, at the very least I'm sure I could have a fire going."

How much have you practiced with that firesteel? Fact is, the conditions where you would actually NEED a fire (cold, wet, you're hypothermic) make it very difficult to start one.

I often go out in miserable conditions and just see what I can do. Let me tell you, it's pretty darn hard to get a fire going in the rain with a firesteel if you don't have dry tinder with you. If you want to be survival-y I'd recommend also carrying a lighter even if you don't smoke, and some sort of tinder (an esbit cube, wetfire, whatever. One cube doesn't take up much space in the pocket and they weigh like .1oz).


"and maybe could fashion a snare if I needed to. Dunno about an emergency shelter though- never had the opportunity to learn how to build one."

There's a difference between getting through a "survival situation" and being a survivalist. I've watched many an episode of survivorman - the general theme is that he goes out, freezes and starves for a week and then gets picked up. I don't recall an episode where he ever successfully caught any wild game (I think there may have been 1 episode where he did managed to do some fly fishing though?)... If he can't do it, I think it would probably just be a waste of precious calories for most people to try.

I'd say being able to build a quick shelter is an infinitely more important skill to have than setting snares. We can go a long time without food so long as we have water. Getting yourself dry and warm, followed by getting yourself found, are the top priorities.



I prepare for the situation I'm going to be in. If I was going to be hiking in some remote area in the Canadian bush in late fall, you can bet I'd be carrying an 8oz+ fixed blade, a decent fire-starting kit, plastic whistle, compass, maybe a signaling mirror... On the other hand, if I was hiking the AT in summer, all I really need is a razor blade (and heck, you don't really even need that...).

Edited by hosaphone on 10/27/2011 17:08:23 MDT.

I actually use my firesteel regularly. I'm a bit of a pyro (I even have a yoyo called the Pyro). Did a lot of irresponsible stuff in my younger days, but now I use my fascination with fire for good and not evil. Also, I live in the desert. Even though this was an exceptionally wet year, it's still pretty darned dry. Finding dry tinder is a non issue. I also practice with the fresnel lens, and even the parabolic reflector from a flashlight. I pretty much practice ever fire starting technique I've seen on your standard TV survival show. My failures have been when trying to start a fire with the fire plow, hand drill, and the clear plastic bag full of water.

If I were to go into the outdoors somewhere wet, I don't know what I'd do. I'm so used to the plants and animals of the desert, I think I'd be a fish out of water (but in water?) if I was dropped off in a jungle or swamp... I might manage in a forest-y type of environment, but I dunno...

BM

Wow, I never thought of a plastic bag with water! Pretty amazing: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dtt-rybSG00&feature=player_embedded

But again there's the catch... If the conditions are good enough to start a fire that way, your life probably doesn't depend on that fire!


Seems like for survival in the desert your big problem would be finding and carrying water... Maybe keep a gallon ziplock in your pocket? :-p

Survivorman has caught wild “game” on several episodes. On most of them he has not. It can certainly be a calorie burning endeavor. And you don’t have any spare calories in a survival situation. Food is certainly last on the list.

When Survivorman was asked what he would take into a survival situation if he could only take one item it was a “bic” lighter. If not that? Matches. If not that? Flint striker. His comment, “What can I say, I like fire”.

My personal idea of a minimal “survival kit” is a whistle, fire steel, mini LED light and a “pen” knife on a necklace (the cord is something usable for a fire bow). I also always try to carry a “bic” lighter in my pocket. My wallet always has paper in it (good start at tinder).

Read "98.6 Degrees The Art of Keeping Your A$$ Alive" by Cody Lundin
2003 by Gibbs Smith Publishing.


at Amazon.com
http://www.amazon.com/98-6-Degrees-Keeping-Your-Alive/dp/1586852345/ref=sr_1_3?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1319759270&sr=1-3

Edited by wandering_bob on 10/27/2011 17:48:57 MDT.

"My wallet always has paper in it (good start at tinder)."

If I'm carrying my wallet on a hike, I keep it in a ziplock. Sucks for everything to get wet if you fall in a stream or something, and it would suck even more if you were depending on using its contents for tinder.

I've never had success making fire with a bow drill, even on a good day :(


I'm a big Cody Lundin fan though!

Edited by hosaphone on 10/27/2011 17:51:42 MDT.

Well... Since you mentioned it, here is a shameless plug for the video I made of teaching myself to starta fire with a fire bow.

Video

Edited by Hitech on 10/27/2011 17:56:23 MDT.

"If I'm carrying my wallet on a hike, I keep it in a ziplock"

My wallet is a ziplock : )

I cut it down a bit and sealed it

I work outdoors and when I know I'm going to be walking much of any distance, I have a small (or large :)) pack that goes with me. However there are many times when my pack doesn't make it with me as the "plan" is a quick peek over a ridge, check a spot on the river, etc. Realizing there is always a chance the "plan" could go awry, I first try to insure that my clothing is appropriate for the weather conditions. Secondly I always carry/wear a knife, a light, a paracord bracelet, analog watch and fire starting materials.

I've been using this pocket sheath for some time now that holds my knife, firesteel and five tinder tabs- it's light, flat and unobtrusive.

"Well... Since you mentioned it, here is a shameless plug for the video I made of teaching myself to starta fire with a fire bow."

Hah! You have much more patience than I do! Cool video.



"My wallet is a ziplock : )"

Brilliant! Leave it to BPL...

"Hah! You have much more patience than I do! Cool video."

Thanks. I was properly motivated. It was for a contest sponsored by Suvivorman. The prize package was very nice. Although it was rushed and I wish I'd had more time, I did manage to win second place; which was the prize package I wanted. :^).

I always have my "survival keychain," with a Swiss Army Classic, Fenix E01 AAA LED flashlight, Bison "spy capsule" with Tinder Quick tabs, a Light My Fire mini firesteel, and a whistle. I also carry a 3.5" folding knife. When hiking I add a K&M match safe with REI Storm matches and a Suunto compass in the end cap. If I lose my pack, the stuff in my pockets and my brain are all I have, so I make sure I have stuff in my pockets :)

In my pack are more essentials and a few items for repair and improvising: a small first aid kit, 20' nylon seine line, a little wire, spare batteries, duct tape, a hotel "freebie" sewing kit, and backup chlorine dioxide tablets taped to a 1 liter Platypus.

It's kinda nice to see this thread on a site where most won't carry a knife bigger than a razor blade.

The kind of situation you describe is exactly what happened to this guy: http://www.twincities.com/ci_19196684

That's why I hike with a little Inov-8 waist pouch with some bare minimum stuff in it, since it stays on me even if I take off my backpack. It's listed at 4 ounces but I removed the unnecessary foam padding which frees up some space and gets the weight just below 4 ounces.

http://www.inov-8.com/Products-Detail.asp?PG=PG2&L=27&P=5050973243

http://testedtodestruction.blogspot.com/2011/08/inov8-race-elite-2-bumbag.html

I try hard to pack light, but my roots are in bushcraft/survival training (with lots of field time) so I it's tough for me not to throw a Mora into my pack.

Is Armageddon closer to folk in the US than the rest of the world?
My urban 'survival gear' is enough power in my phone to call for assistance.

"so I it's tough for me not to throw a Mora into my pack."

I always take a "full size" multi tool with me. But, that is certainly NOT an UL piece of equipment. I use it constantly, and after struggling with making a fire with a fire bow I wouldn't want to try it with anything less. ;^)

"Is Armageddon closer to folk in the US than the rest of the world?
My urban 'survival gear' is enough power in my phone to call for assistance."

We have earthquakes and active volcanoes in the back yard! Tsunamis are a reality in some areas too.

The first thing I learned in earthquake disaster planning is that you can't rely on fire and police response after a major earthquake. You need to be self-reliant, ergo my little pocket kit, a water bottle and an extra layer in my backpack or messenger bag when I go out in the city. Our cars have much more extensive kits.

When I worked in the city center, I realized that there was a waterway between me and my home, my wife's workplace, and the kids' school, with four bridges being the only way across. I added a cheap air mattress to my office disaster kit: I *could* sleep on it, or use it to get across the waterway when the bridges were impassible.

I would much rather be in the woods than dealing my fellow city dwellers after a big quake. The prospects of being stuck in an office tower with 100 certified yuppie sales people and no power or working plumbing was not a happy thought. We were told to plan on staying put. Granted, falling glass and masonry in the aftershocks would be dangerous, but my plan was to get out of Dodge as soon as possible.

When Mount St. Helens blew, the roads in Eastern and Southwest Washington were a mess. The ash would quickly clog the air filter in a car and could turn a good engine into a boat anchor in a few miles. If Mt. Rainier ever goes, we're in BIG trouble.

"I feel the earth move under my feet
I feel the sky tumbling down, tumbling down
I feel the earth move under my feet
I feel the sky tumbling down, tumbling down"
---Carol King

I carry a blind horse knives small tiger knapp around my neck with a very, very tiny firesteel and a small bit of cotton/pj tinder attached wrapped onto the sheath with some bicycle inner tube (the inner tube burns really well too).
I would always choose a tough little fixed blade necker over a folder because you can baton the hell out of the fixed blade. In a real situation, you would like to have an axe or saw to get a lot of things done, but with a baton and a sturdy knife, you could do anything you could do with an axe, just with more effort.
The main purpose for my knife would be wet weather fire prep (splitting kindling and making shavings) and for building a shelter. By batoning I can cut down some small trees for the main supports of my shelter and knock off bows for thatching and insulation.
The next best thing would be some kind of plastic for an emergency shelter. But I am probably not going to carry that on me (bulky in pockets). Sure, you can make a natural shelter and make it waterproof, but that takes a lot of time. If it started pouring on me, I might get soaking wet and possibly hypothermic before I could finish a natural shelter. So searching for a pre existing natural shelter (rock overhangs, logs, thick canopy) would be very important.
Mostly I carry the knife so I can go on short walks or go trail running in light mesh shorts and still have some means to keep me safe. I can also conceal carry the knife very well. Even with a kinda tight shirt it doesn't print.

As mentioned earlier, as with bear spray, survival equipment should be carried on your person at all times; not in your backpack. Murphy's Laws of Survival state that you and your pack will be separated when the need for same arises.

Separate kits for the home and each car are good precautions. You never know where or when something will go wrong.

Experts define the minimum functional requirements for any kit to be:

- a cutting edge

- firestarting capability

- water carrying capability

Each person selects the item that fullfills each of these essential functions, as well as any other items in the kit.

Kit contents should be assembled based on the geographical area in which they'll be used and the skill level of the supposed user.

@ Bob

I have fussed over the water-carrying part for a pocket kit. Other than a non-lubricated condom I haven't seen much and the condom never has seemed practical, just a better than nothing at all alternative. Platypus bladders are good until you get to the neck and cap and they then they seem to bulky, although I don't mind carrying a spare in my pack. What have you seen that works?

Here's my "Gollum" kit, as in, "what does it have in it's pocketses?"

Edited by dwambaugh on 10/28/2011 16:02:35 MDT.

A Hilleberg Bivanorak, Fallkniven F1, and swedish steel firestarter. See a trend here?

"A Hilleberg Bivanorak, Fallkniven F1, and swedish steel firestarter. See a trend here?"

I had an F1 and it is an excellent tool, but I just never really got around to carrying a fixed blade on a regular basis when hiking. The Benchmade Rant is a similar design that I like. The Mora Allround series knives are very inexpensive and tough enough. The folding Benchmade Griptilian is very tough and is much easier to live with than a sheathed knife.

I like the AMK SOL Emergency Bivy for backup shelter. It can give full protection and is easily adapted if needed.

I have to have a firesteel somewhere in the mix. I'll go for a lighter and matches for first choices, but when everything else is broken or wet, the firesteel is there.

all the matches, firesteels and lighters in the world are useless if you cant start a fire in adverse conditions

i would suggest an absolutely, totally foolproof way to start a fire ... keeping in mind that when you really need a fire you have a very good chance of being hypothermic with shaking hands

"i would suggest an absolutely, totally foolproof way to start a fire ... keeping in mind that when you really need a fire you have a very good chance of being hypothermic with shaking hands"

A road flare is the answer, but not very light. It will get the wettest crud on the forest floor burning and give you 15 minutes to do it. It also makes a handy signal device, seeing that it was designed for that :) I've written before that I want a super-waterproof 5 minute version of a road flare for fire starting. I think they would be a big seller for hiking and survival use.

This seems pretty good to me:

REI Stormproof Matches

"I want a super-waterproof 5 minute version of a road flare for fire starting."

Stormproof matches will be one step in that direction.

I used to carry a chemical firestarter with me. It had capsules of one spoonful of finely ground potassium permanganate and one spoonful of glycerine. Pour the liquid over the solid and wait about 30 seconds. It smokes, and then it bursts into flame.

--B.G.--

lol dale ... im sure u know, im not talking bout the initial flame ... but something to get the tinder going ... how many times have we struck matches or used lighters in poor conditions and still couldnt get a fire going

petroleum jelly cottom balls are my choice ...

a single flare may not be the worst idea in the world among a group ... there was a group of hikers here that used it to guide a rescue chopper in

@ Dale:

One gallon and one quart ziplock FREEZER bags (not sandwich bags).

You just need something that allows you to carry water from place to place. Food you can do without for long periods; water you must have at least every 3rd day.

Edited by wandering_bob on 10/28/2011 16:42:34 MDT.

I have heard of some pretty intense thermite fire starters.

"ol dale ... im sure u know, im not talking bout the initial flame ... but something to get the tinder going ... how many times have we struck matches or used lighters in poor conditions and still couldnt get a fire going

petroleum jelly cottom balls are my choice"

The PJCB's are a standard. I'm lazy and use the prepared Tinder Quick tabs and keep them in a "spy capsule,' which works really well for a pocket kit. I can get 4+ in one of the Bison Designs capsules. Agreed on getting suitable tinder and smaller wood prepared for a fire, especially when you aren't in good shape or one-handed.

The 15 minute flares aren't too heavy and probably a good choice for a solo hiker in winter or otherwise poor conditions. I can start one with one hand (poorly) by standing on the cap/striker. If you put one under a pile of ~1" diameter branches, they *will* burn and you have time to drag more stuff into the flames.

Thermite is great if you need to burn a hole through a cast iron Detroit engine block. It is a little overkill for starting a small campfire.

--B.G.--

Eric brings up an important point. I was in a situation once where I needed to start my stove for warmth. Unfortunately, my fingers were so cold that I could not feel them. I did get the stove going...eventually, but I would be lying if I did not say that I was more than a little concerned. I was slightly hypothermic at that point. I am not good at starting fires and should work on that skill.

By the way, my previous comment was related to the three items having Swedish heritage. I was going to say meatballs as the 4th item but they aren't that good frozen.

@Mike

Cell phone is a great idea but will not work in the mountains where I trek. Of course a sat phone would.

"One gallon and one quart ziplock FREEZER bags (not sandwich bags)"

Sounds better than a condom, but still so clumsy and fragile to carry. I guess you could tie one up in your bandana or a shirt to carry. A ziplock sounds much better to open and close multiple times.

It has been low on my priority list as my Cascade Range survival scenarios usually involve too much water than too little (read "cascades"). If I were in dryer climates, it would get more attention.

Update: I had to try it, and we had some Glad 1 quart freezer zip-lock bags they are blue). I filled one and gave it a good beating in the sink. I was surprised how tough it was. It weighs 0.26oz/7g. To carry one in my pants pocket, I think I would put it inside another for protection. I think one by itself would survive well enough in a chest pocket in a jacket. I could put one in the crown pocket of my Tilley hat!

Edited by dwambaugh on 10/29/2011 10:43:28 MDT.

a couple of things I use for water containers that pack up very small

one is the hot beverage bag that comes out of MRE's (they can be purchsed seperately as well)

the other, little bigger and sturdier is the 1 liter emergency bags sold here http://bepreparedtosurvive.com/WaterContainers.htmt

"It's kinda nice to see this thread on a site where most won't carry a knife bigger than a razor blade.

The kind of situation you describe is exactly what happened to this guy: http://www.twincities.com/ci_19196684"

I said it up above, but again it depends where and when you'll be hiking. I'm mostly on well maintained trails where you'll almost never go a full day without another hiker passing by, and you're typically always within 10 miles of some sort of road. In those situations it's pretty hard to get yourself into an actual life threatening situation as long as you're not an idiot. Winter or shoulder season hiking would be a different story, but for 3-season hiking in those conditions you really don't need more than a razor blade, and even that is mostly just for convenience.

If I was solo bushwhacking in the middle of a 1000 square mile tract of forest like the guy in the story, you can bet I'd be carrying all sorts of things BPLers would make fun of me for.

"In those situations it's pretty hard to get yourself into an actual life threatening situation as long as you're not an idiot"


And there's the rub...


I'm guilty of leaving everything in my pack. Hate stuff in my pockets. But do carry "the essentials" needed for my climate.

for backpacking what I came up w/ for the "loss of pack" scenario is this small knife "kit" small fixed blade, small firesteel, tinder (firestraws), whistle, photon light, ~ 15' of Spectra line- weighs right at 4 oz and I forget I'm even wearing it



this is in my pocket- K&M matchsafe has a built in Suunto compass, carry REI/UCO matches, tinder



exposure is the biggest risk I face where I recreate, this would give me the tools to get a rudimentary shelter up along w/ a fire- uncomfortable, clearly; alive- that's the hope :)

I carry a several things but I also keep a get home bag (GHB) in my truck with essentials. I'm trying to use some of the lightweight principles I have learned here to lighten it up but a lot of those items I don't want to sacrifice weight savings for a reduction in quality gear.

I said it up above, but again it depends where and when you'll be hiking. I'm mostly on well maintained trails where you'll almost never go a full day without another hiker passing by, and you're typically always within 10 miles of some sort of road. In those situations it's pretty hard to get yourself into an actual life threatening situation as long as you're not an idiot.

http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/forums/thread_display.html?forum_thread_id=54980

people have gotten into serious issues within 10 miles of a road ... recent example in the thread above

i can think of several places where you could get injured or lost and literally die in view of vancouver ...

as to carrying extra stuff on a person, its a good idea, but sad to say i rarely do ... we should probably come up with the lightest and least bulkiest solution here ... or get crucified by BPLers ;)

I used to always carry a whistle when backpacking. One time on a hunting trip, I used my (loud) whistle as a prearranged signal to other members of my group who were no more than a few hundred yards away (through trees, with a bit of wind) and listening for the signal. They never heard it.

In an emergency situation, a whistle is unlikely to get the attention of anyone who isn't both already looking for you, and rather close to you already.

"In an emergency situation, a whistle is unlikely to get the attention of anyone who isn't both already looking for you, and rather close to you already."

But that's precisely the point...To alert people looking for you (especially if you're hurt/immobile) and *maybe* you'll also luck out and alert someone not looking.

If you think a whistle can't get someone's attention, try yelling...for 3 or 4 hours. See how long that can last. Better yet, imagine trying to continuously yell for help with busted ribs.

The pitch of the whistle may be a problem with those who have high frequency hearing loss--- like older guys who have been exposed to a lot of industrial noise, firearms, etc. That is a good case for multi-pitch whistles like the ACR. Properly done, two tones create a really annoying sound and hopefully attract more attention.

Whistles are so light and inexpensive that there is little excuse for not including one in your kit. As others said, you won't yell with any volume for very long.

I'm an ocean lifeguard, I use a whistle a lot. Pitch and technique are everything, but you also need a good whistle. I prefer fox 40 classic, some prefer the acme thunder. Dual pitch throws further then single pitch. Whistles with a pea inside are more noticeable as being a man made sound but not necessarily louder.

Cup your hands and project the whistle in one direction, repeat in the other directions. You get more throw that way. Loud, short bursts. Staccato.

With a fox40 I can get an unaware persons attention across open beach, to a bit less then a quarter mile. if I'm trying to signal a fellow lifeguard, (someone actively on alert for such sounds, like an SAR rescuer) then that distance is a little further, like a third if a mile.

Hell of a lot better then shouting

If you want a horribly loud whistle, the fox 40 sharx is the loudest one I've tried. Even louder then my survival purposed jet-scream.

... just loved this thing. great info, and of course, that proper attitude that is needed to bring success.
notice also, that as hard as he tries (and tries.. ) (and tries even some frik'n more... ) that the base-wood is saw cut. it could be even WORSE using downed wood.
ohh holy moly, what a chore.

our lad, he done good though !

cheers,
v.

If you really want to get somebody's attention, use bagpipes. Unfortunately, you will drive everybody away.

--B.G.--

i'd rather have one with me that didn't get anybody's attention than not have one where it would have saved a (my) life. there's one attached to my pack, one in my go bag and one on each of my kids school backpacks. i like whistles.

i wonder if they make ultra-light bagpipes.

Thanks for the info! I never thought so much about whistles. Good tip about cupping your hands and blowing it in one direction at a time. I've always carried a cheapo plastic one because it was light weight. One more piece of gear to add to my list...

I did some searching and one reviewer on amazon posted this for the sharx: http://www.amazon.com/review/R2RAI38Y45IYHA/ref=cm_cr_dp_perm?ie=UTF8&ASIN=B0034IUTU6&nodeID=3375251&tag=&linkCode=


"These are the 7 whistles I tested at 1/4 mile distance, over a hill and with general outdoor noise present (birds, wind, etc.), in order of loudness:
1) Storm
2) Fox 40 Classic
3) Acme Tornado 2000 - the "loudest whistle in the world"
4) Acme Tornado
5) Cheap round tubular aluminum whistle.
6) Fox 40 Sharx - on paper, their loudest whistle in decibels
7) Cheap $1.50 whistle\compass\thermometer from DealExtreme

I did my test two different ways and then compared the results. First I had my 90 lb. son blow each whistle 3 times while I listened from 1/4 mile away, over a small hill. We could not see each other, but we used walkie talkies to communicate. Then we traded places and repeated the testing. We both wrote down our scores which were based on how loud we perceived each whistle, and we did not show them to each other until all testing was done. Here were the results:

We both rated the Storm to be the loudest, easily.
We both rated the Fox 40 CLASSIC to be the second loudest.
We both rated the Acme Tornado 2000 to be the third loudest.
The remaining 4 whistles were not significantly different from one another and none of these 4 were even close to the top 3, with the exception of the Acme Tornado which, to my ears, was rated the fourth loudest. Not surprisingly, both the cheap whistles were barely heard, but VERY surprisingly, the Fox 40 Sharx was no louder. In fact, my son actually rated the cheap aluminum whistle to be just a bit louder than the Sharx. I rated them the same.

The biggest surprise was the Fox 40 Sharx, which was among the quietest of the bunch. And here is the irony. Up close, the Sharx was, by far, the most ear-piercing, even more than the Storm. Hence the reason you can't do close up tests for whistles. The pitch of the whistle is just too misleading up close, and they simply do not carry over a distance the way you would think.

Conclusion: If you want a real "life saver" from a distance, choose the Storm. If it's too big for your taste, choose the Fox 40 Classic. The Acme 2000 would be a runner-up. Throw the rest away or give them to your little children to play with. At 1/4 mile they are barely heard.

I hope this was helpful to somebody. "

Edited by hosaphone on 10/29/2011 14:28:12 MDT.

Dale said:

"I have fussed over the water-carrying part for a pocket kit... What have you seen that works?"

Here's my solution. It has done great in my testing and those at www.equipped.org:

http://www.bepreparedtosurvive.com/1%20Qt.%20Emergency%20Water%20Bag.htm

It folds up to a slim shape not much bigger than a jumbo pack of matches. I put one in a tiny poly bag along with a couple Aqua Mira tablets and its a great setup. I think it weighs about an ounce. Cheap and effective.

Are there any waterborn diseases/etc for which the onset is immediate? Afaik giardia can take a few weeks for symptoms to show and crypto is like a week+ usually. I think in a "survival situation" you don't have to worry too much about water purification because hopefully by the time symptoms from waterborne pathogens start to show up you'll be safely at home. Of course if you have AM tabs with you you may as well use them.

"Here's my solution. It has done great in my testing and those at www.equipped.org:

http://www.bepreparedtosurvive.com/1%20Qt.%20Emergency%20Water%20Bag.htm"

Excellent! I'm going to try some. This looks like a great candidate to stash in the crown of my Tilley.

"Are there any waterborn diseases/etc for which the onset is immediate?"

Bacillary dysentery comes on within 24 hours. At least it did for me the one time I contracted it. The same goes for travelers' diarrhea. Cholera onset can be as little as 6 hours, as long as 5 days. Fortunately, these diseases are not common in the US, and definitely not a problem in the high country. I don't know what their prevalence is in lower, warmer parts of the US.

"Are there any waterborn diseases/etc for which the onset is immediate?"

E coli would probably hit you faster (24-72 hours) than giardia-- and kill you quicker too. If you are carrying a spare water container, it's no big deal to include a few AM or MicroPur tablets. I tape four foil packs to my water bladder for backup.

My daughter got hit with e coli a few years ago (she was 18). You don't even want to think about coming down with it--- it is the definition of miserable, even with the best medical care. I don't think there is a big risk in the North American backcountry unless there are livestock involved, but I'll pass on taking chances if at all possible.

My hiking style is always off trail, thus I carry more than the usual hiker. I have sewn small loops into the pockets of my hiking pants and everything I need is on a lanyard. Here is a page from the group I hike with that explains "on person suvival gear"

http://therucksack.tripod.com/MiBSAR/SARgear/SurvivalGear/SurvivalGear.htm

I also carry a miniature map in a small zip-lock, I leave a map, itinerary and an impression of my boot (in foil) in my car and at home.

Enjoy,

Dave

"But that's precisely the point...To alert people looking for you (especially if you're hurt/immobile)..."

What I'm getting at is that a whistle is unlikely to alert people as far away as lighting a smoky fire or flashing a signal mirror, for example, and not meaningfully further away than other things you could do without carrying an extra piece of gear--such as banging a spoon against your pot, waving a brightly colored groundcloth, or banging rocks together.

Of course, each of us makes choices about what to carry based on our own beliefs about the chances we will need to be rescued, and how much of our time and pack weight should be devoted to preparing to help rescuers find us as opposed to making sure we won't need to be rescued in the first place.

FWIW

My wife and I were on a trip to Mexico.

You know where this is heading don't you? ;-)

We had been very careful about what we drank and ate while we were in Acapulco. We drank bottled everything.

One Night In Mexico City Makes A Hard Man Humble!

My apologies for taking artistic license with that song, but I'll explain.

After a week in Acapulco with not even a hint of gastric distress we spent one day and night in Mexico City. After 1 full week in Acapulco, I had been lulled into a false sense of security. During our 24 hour stay in Mexico City I succumbed to a water born ailment whose onset while not immediate was indeed rapid.

While eating supper in a restaurant a glass of water was placed on the table before me. Without thinking I took a sip from the glass of water. I immediately noticed a grittiness in the water and realized my mistake. Upon a visual inspection there were quite a few swimmers and sinkers in that glass of water.

I'd estimate that it was only 3 hours or less when that sip of water resulted in a long sleepless night of either kneeling or seated positions. ;-(

I feel much safer collecting my water from streams and springs as I hike. I treat my water with Micropur and only "filter" to remove swimmers, sinkers and floaters. I've encountered no ill effects to date using this method. YMMV

Party On,

Newton

This is bad advice, man.

A signal mirror is good stuff, but requires line of sight and is highly directional. And you have to spot the person first.

If you think banging on your very small cooking pot is louder then a whistle, well good luck with that.

If you're hurt, immobilized how will you gather fire materials for that signal fire? What if you're low in a ravine, underside tree cover where the ffire has low chance of observability?

If your gear gets ravaged by a bear, or dragged off or you got hurt on that little siide trip how will you bang pots and pans?

If you can breathe in and out you can operate a whistle. The weight is under an ounce.

"that the base-wood is saw cut. it could be even WORSE using downed wood.
ohh holy moly, what a chore."

Yes, it was. I used some firewood I had laying around the house. In the scenes filmed "on location" I prefabbed everything for the fire bow ahead of time, and brought the materials for the tinder bundle with me. The intention was to save time, and the contest did not require that I use any specific materials. I did have a saw on my multi-tool, and used it to cut the notches in the base board burn holes.

However, it certainly made me realize just how hard it would be to do this in a real survival situation. You need just the right materials and it could easily take all day.

And thanks for the complement. :^) I'm glad that the over and over frustration was evident in the video.

And, I have the fox 40 whistle. It is the one suvivorman recommends. They are also good for signalling each other if you get suddenly separated.

Edited by Hitech on 10/30/2011 11:04:29 MDT.

@Mike: Thanks for that link - those aqua-pouches and emergency water bags are pretty cool! I might get one or two...

In the "what if you lose your pack" scenario department, I always hike with a GG Hipster with the pouch part in front ($15 and just under 1.5oz on my scale). Mostly, it's for convenience of having some things right there (even easier to get into than pack hip belt pockets). Size is just right. It only comes off when I am in the tent. In a particularly isolated area, I might sleep with it on. Contents on any given morning when hitting the trail are usually as follows:

-Trail snack food to eat on the go (not all of it, just enough until the next time I rest and refill from my pack. Usually at least 3 or so packets of Justin's almond butter in addition to bars, small baggies of fritos, nuts and raisins, VIA packets, etc.). These are stuffed on top of everything else and may make it a little too full at first, but only until I eat something. Overflow can go in a pocket.

-Map and compass there for easy access to check navigation

-Very small little Rite in the Rain notebook and wee mechanical pencil for notes.

-Hand sanitizer, eye drops, lip balm with sunscreen, ibuprofen

-Tiny folding knife

-Identification

-Camera

-I also have one of those AMS mini survival kits in a wee waterproof zip pouch in the hip pouch, containing a magnifier, signal mirror, fishing kit, backup compass (tiny), whistle, needle and thread, scalpel blade, duct tape, foil, nylon cord, wire, safety pins. While I'm comfortable on my sofa, I could easily work out how best to use these items, but knowing that if I need to use them, I will likely NOT be comfortable, and may be fighting the urge to freak out, I left the written instructions in the kit for when my brain shuts down...

I also will temporarily stuff other stuff in there or hook them on the belt part, like toileting items when off to dig a cat hole (hooked on belt in pouch, not in with food), or tent stakes as I'm pitching to make sure they're not lost if I am worried they'll fall out of my pocket. I also keep two empty dog-doody cleanup bags in there that are the perfect size for trash - some of my own (wrappers for bars, etc.), but also for trash I pick up on the trail (it's a compulsion, I can't leave something once I see it. Bottle caps, bits of plastic, clothing labels, reflectors that have fallen off bikes...). Once trash bag is a bit more full, I carry it in my pocket instead of the hip pack.

I have not included more robust fire-starting stuff (though there's stuff in the little survival kit), because it's been so dry (strict burn ban/stove ban) that if I tried to start a fire, I'd probably be more likely to start and then be caught in a giant wildfire!

I usually don't keep my head light in there, but it's tiny, so now that I think about it, I'll add it next time. I also don't have something for a shelter. I have an emergency blanket/bag I carry, but it doesn't fit in the little hip pack. Haven't figured that out... Oh, and something to carry water. I'm going to take a look at those emergency water bags.

Anyhow, I mostly use the little hip pack not because I'm paranoid about losing my pack, but because I like to have certain things very easily accessible. But I decided that if I was going to carry emergency survival stuff, it was kinda dumb to put it deep in the pack if I was wearing a hip pack, too.

Now I'm just wondering whether I can get a set of bagpipes into the back pocket of my Circuit. Hmmm....

Playing bagpipes would be a good way to get left behind ;) Should keep the wildlife away!

I always take on a lanyard
- photon II
- whistle (never used it)
- sometimes firesteel
- sometimes classic Swiss Army kife

Some other thoughts...
My kit has gotten so small and light, I now take the following even on day hikes just to fill out my pack
- cuben quilt
- Poncho Tarp (now replaced with Hexamid and Cuben poncho/ground sheet
- Caldera Keg with esbit tabs

Regarding emergency water bag. I seam-sealed a cuben stuff sack and it holds water. I tie off the draw string to keep the top at the top of a water pocket or even in my pack. Hope I never have to use this, as I always have some sort of a water container with me. But I tested it and it works.

I have a small FAK/Personal items kit in a small cuben sack. Very easy to slip into a pants pocket if needed. I always take a Bic, a book of matches and a razor blade.


I almost got into a survival situation of sorts yesterday. Went on a 18 mile hike, with the last 12 or 13 miles a descent of over 8,000 feet elevation. After about 5,000 feet elevation drop my legs were sore, weak, and shaky. I think part of this was due the a bad case of the flu a couple weeks ago and my body has not fully recuperated. So I really slowed my pace. At 7,000 feet drop I could barely walk and my intended last mile was just too steep to hike. By now it was dark. At this point I had two options, make camp and spend the night or take an alternate route which was longer but a much more gradual drop and an easier trail. I took the later, with the intent to stop and camp if things got worse. I had everything I needed to spend the night. I used the Photon to guide me in a slow 2 mile hike that took 2 hours with no moonlight. Normally I can do this section in 45 minutes or less.

I carry pictures of my wife and kids.

I've found that one major key in making a fire with a bowdrill is to do everything within your power to reduce the friction between the spindle and the bearing block.

Think about it- laws of physics. You cannot create or destroy energy, just change it form one state to another. So, you are taking energy from you muscles (chemical energy?) and turning it into kinetic energy (reciprocating motion of the bow, rotating motion into the drill). Then you are turning that kinetic energy into heat through friction. If you have zero friction at the bearing block, all of that energy is being funneled into the concentrated area in your fireboard. As you add friction to the top of the spindle, heat starts being generated there. Where is that heat coming from? Not thin air- obviously (pesky laws of physics)... It's being taken away from the bottom of the spindle. For every btu generated at the bearing block, that's one less btu working towards making a burning ember. I cheated when I was learning and put some axle grease on the spindle. It was incredible how much faster I started generating clouds of smoke. In a survival situation, assuming you haven't showered in a while, I've read that you can rub the top end of the spindle on your face, neck, hair, etc., to lube it up some. I guess that's a situation where it would help to have oily skin. If you have killed anything recently, maybe you could rub it on some animal fat.

But yeah- there's been some great information posted in this thread! I went ahead and made some firestraws the other night. That has got the be the most sano way I've seen yet for carrying pjcb's... It's amazing how much cotton fits in a 3" section of drinking straw.

And living in the desert, carrying water has been something I've given lots of thought to. The plastic bags make great sense. I folded up a 1 gallon bag (this is the desert! can't have too much water) to about the size of my wallet. I will look into those bags specifically designed for carrying water as well. Also, if you have clear sunny skies, clear water (not murky), and a clear container, you can use sunlight to kill pathogens. UV radiation from sitting it in direct sunlight for 6hrs or so is supposed to be enough to do the job...

I have been wanting a small fixed blade knife too, like the izula or the bark river neckers.. My folder has been great and have used it to batton a lot of small wood to make kindling and fuel for my wood gas stove testing, but I know that pivot is a weak link.

I've spent some time on the survivalist forums, but those guys are go a bit overboard when it comes to edc survival carry or short camping trip gear. Of course, I'll be eating my words if the zombie apocalypse happens today...

BM

Edited by Ultra_Magnus on 10/31/2011 12:37:21 MDT.

The oils from your skin work well, even if you have dry skin (forehead and the side of your nose). And after working up a good sweat trying to make that d**m coal, you should have enough oil to work with. I did. ;^)

green grass and other vegetation makes for decent "lube" for the spindle, haven't tried but would think that sunscreen, lip balm, etc might work as well?????

I found the oil from my skin worked better than anything else. I tried vegetable oil and a few household oils. The oil from my skin worked the best, and was what would be available "in the field" anyway, so I stuck with that.

Duct tape, knife, and a lighter. Done.

Here's my solution. Stays strapped around my right thigh at all times in the woods.

It could just continue to be neck-hung but anything around my neck bothers me.



Bark River fixed blade and sheath, para cord, firesteel, snare wire, flashlight, compass, fishing line, duct tape, fishing hooks (under duct tape), beeswax-infused cotton firestarter (stuffed in hole of firesteel).
It's ridiculously light considering the amount of valuable stuff, and always stays together as a package.


But the most useful thing is probably my McMurdo FastFind PLB which stays in a zipped pants pocket.

Edited by dasbin on 10/31/2011 14:38:37 MDT.

When travelling in the Philippines by plane, boat or auto in the countryside I carry a small REI fanny pack (on my front to avoid razor-weilding theives) full of emergency gear.

This kit includes:

> headlamp (Used it in Mindanao in 2006 during a night time auto breakdown.)
> 1st aid kit
> all-latitude Silva compass
> fire-starting gear (tinder, magnesieum/striker/sparker kit, good lighter, hurricane matches)
> 3" lockblade knife
> Katadyn chlorine dioxide tabs (20)
> gallon ZipLoc freezer bag to carry water
> 50' light Spectra cord
> spare glasses
> color photo copy of my passport
> $50. US
> detailed road map of the area

All paper items are coated with Thompson's Water Seal Ultra and sealed in Ziploc bags.

I have to check to see if a SPOT beacon will work there on a "911" call.
When I return next year I will add a few things like my loud ski patrol whistle and some meds for cuts like polysporin. Cuts go south fast in that hot, damp cliomate.

Edited by Danepacker on 10/31/2011 18:38:00 MDT.

I received the water bags today. They look for for a backup and I can easily stash one in the crown pocket of my Tilley hat. With that and my "Gollum" pocket kit, I'm ready to go :)

This is a pretty sure way to have fire.

http://stores.thepathfinderschoolllc.com/-strse-218/Mini-Inferno/Detail.bok

I'm probably going to go ahead and pick up a few of those for myself. I thought I'd be all cool in the spirit of myog and cut a 1gallon bag in half lengthwise, and re seal it with an iron making a tall narrow water bag, but apparently it's not quite that easy. I made a few attempts, and was able to hold water for a few minutes (holds about a quart, but it's a very convenient one hand carry size)but the seam was very difficult to make water tight and strong. My best attempt didn't leak, but with a little pressure the seam came apart and burst open. Maybe one of those vacuum food seal iron thingies might get the job done, but that's a lot less cost effective unless I want to start vacuum sealing my food...

BM

the little water bags are actually pretty tough, I used one on a bare bones overnighter (I mean really bare bones! :)) I treated and carried about 8-10 bags full- was ~ 1/4 mile cross country from the spring I was using and my shelter

pictured leaning against the tree

That said, the more you know about bushcraft/primitive skills, the less you need to carry.

Edited by bigfoot2 on 11/08/2011 11:59:39 MST.

I also use the Survival Resources Aqua Pouch.