1.25 lbs of food per day?
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 Tom Kirchner (ouzel) - MLife Locale: Pacific Northwest/Sierra Re: Re: Re: Re: 1.25 lbs of food per day? on 01/06/2007 18:35:53 MST Hi James,Your estimate of 1.75#/day leads to another consideration: If you're carrying .5#/day of additional food, how many days food could you pack before you run out of volume and end up using a bigger(heavier??) pack. Depends on lots of other things, obviously, but you can probably see where I'm going with this. In my case, I started out with a bigger pack and ended up with a smaller one that weighed about 1# 12 oz less, partly due to smaller food volume, but also due to lightening my gear. This is the one area where body fat(3500 cal/#) trumps dietary fat(~4000 cal/#). In the end, I think all grams are equal in the eyes of the SUL deities.
 James Pitts (jjpitts) - F Locale: Midwest US Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: 1.25 lbs of food per day? on 01/07/2007 11:54:02 MST Hey Tom. I have have mulled over your post here for a while now. I agree that most SUL deities would agree that a gram is a gram. Actually, anyone that knows that a gram of feathers weighs the same as a gram of lead would know this. Most of the gear lists I see quote "skin out" weight which excludes the weight of the hiker. These lists also don't quote weight of significant consumables (water, food, fuel specifically). I think this is fair since it normalizes the gear lists to be independent of the hiker and the duration of the trip. So these lists become meaningful to the broader community. With a little work I can tell what this list means to me and you can tell what it means to you. We can all know what the list will mean for any given trip.Stating that a food ration weighs 1.25 lbs per day and not stating that this is based on an assumption of 4 lbs of weight loss over 12 days is like weighing in your pack at the start of a hike and not including the contents of your pockets. In the end a "joule is a joule" (energy is conserved) and whether or not the weight is on your waist or in your food bag it has to be moved about for 12 days.So I agree that a gram is a gram, but in order for people to really know what a figure of "1.25 lbs of food per day" really means they would have to know all the parameters involved.Personally, I have a really hard time NOT running a calorie deficit on the trail and losing weight. So I indirectly wind up "saving weight" (pack weight specifically) using this approach. I quoted an equivalent, estimated, calorie burn of 3800 calories for this food plan and said it "made sense". It's darn hard for me to eat 3800 calories in a day. I am just not used to consuming that many calories. I always wind up losing weight... until the last day when I wind up hitting a pizza joint and downing a few too many beers. ;)
 Tom Kirchner (ouzel) - MLife Locale: Pacific Northwest/Sierra Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: 1.25 lbs of food per day? on 01/07/2007 16:04:44 MST Ah yes, pizza and beer. The fantasy of a frosty bottle with a rivulet trickling down the side has gotten me back to the trailhead before closing time on many an occasion.I know what you mean about having trouble getting 3800 calories down in 1 day. That's the beauty of carrying it around your middle. It just gets dribbled into the bloodstream on demand without involving the stomach(or tastebuds). The point I was trying to make about a weight volume correlation(probably not very clearly) is that by reducing your food requirement by 1/2# per day, you can reduce pack volume required, with the potential to be able to get by with a smaller, lighter pack-especially on longer trips.
 Einstein X (EinsteinX) - F Locale: The Netherlands Re: Re: Re: Re: 1.25 lbs per day on 01/13/2007 03:43:37 MST PJ wrote: "When c-um. (Profanity Police nabbed me; the period to indicate an abbrev. wasn't sufficient, hence the hyphen)...."Now i do understand using abbreviation since they safe you a bit of writing time. I do think though that writing the whole word 'cummulative' instead of the stuff between () would've saved you a bit more time.LOLEins
 paul johnson (pj) - F Locale: LazyBoy in my Den - miss the forest Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: 1.25 lbs per day on 01/13/2007 05:06:16 MST Eins, you're absolutely right. I need to put the thinking cap on more. There's usually an alternative way of doing things that's as good or nearly as good. Thanks for replying.
 mark henley (flash582) - F but everyone is different on 01/13/2007 05:13:17 MST I can get by with 2000 cals per day for a long weekend. For a week, I push it up to 1.4 to 1.5 pounds per day, but might only carry 1.25 if I can fish where I'm going. For multiple weeks .... well, I'm sure I would need to carry up to 2 lbs per day just to get the caloric intake I would need.Now ... I have a buddy who has to carry 1.5 lbs of food minimum or he's licking the bottom of his ziplocks to get more calories for even an overnighter.I lift weights at least 3 days a week and have a serving of muscle milk at least once a day. The protein shake does fill you up and can really make a difference when you are trying to eat 6 or 7 times a day to gain muscle mass. I've never carried protein mix on the trail, but it is a VERY interesting concept. I'll give it a try on my next outing next month and report back on this thread.Mark
 Einstein X (EinsteinX) - F Locale: The Netherlands Re: but everyone is different on 01/13/2007 05:53:06 MST Just speculating about your budy here, Mark, but is he also into bodybuilding?In periods when i'm really pushing it hard with fitness (one day lifting weights, next day doing cardio excersics, total of six training days per week, rest on sunday, HIT method, training all muscle groups each lifting weights day) I simply can't eat enough on a cardio day. This day my body is building muscle tisue and I simpy can't eat enough to feel full.If your budy is the same and if he's interested in saving weight on the food he carries on that weekend hike, I'd propose him to not train in the week prior the hike, so his body rest and doesn't require so much fuel. I think he could than get by with eating less food in a day.But, returning to my first statement, i'm just speculating about your budy.Eins
 James Pitts (jjpitts) - F Locale: Midwest US Re: Re: 1.25 lbs of food per day? on 01/13/2007 09:21:37 MST I'll add to the discussion something that I don't recall reading about. While in food a gram is a gram and a calorie is a calorie different foods do have different "satiety value" or "satiety response". It's a term I only heard about a few years ago while talking to a friend of mine who is a nurse. Satiety response is a measure of how satisfying foods are when we eat them... how well did the food satisfy your hunger. I think it's a neat concept because it takes all the complex issues of foods, such as the blend of nutrients they contain, and renders them down to a "hunger satisfaction" index. I am sure if one Googled around one could find an index of these values but my point is that different foods satisfy hunger to a different degree. There are diets out there that focus on including foods that have high satiety values. I think diet foods like the Slim-Fast shakes and snacks are designed to have a high satiety value so people won't be as hungry cutting calories. I guess what this says to me is that the food/hunger topic is a two-sided discussion with food on one side and the physiology/psychology of what triggers hunger on the other. I would think that if you were packing 1.25 lbs of food per day, didn't mind losing weight, and didn't want to feel hungry than a way to go would be to lean towards foods that have a high "satiety response". Frankly, I don't know what these foods are so I'll probably do some digging about.
 Sarah Kirkconnell (sarbar) - F Locale: In the shadow of Mt. Rainier Satiety on 01/13/2007 09:33:02 MST Well, I can say from my own experience that if I eat on the trail what I eat at home, I get full (I eat Donkey Fodder, ie: shredded wheat, with fruit every morning). It is a high fiber meal, so it fills me up. Now, if I were to eat regular cereal, I am hungry in an hour!My trick is to eat the highest fiber meals I can find, and I eat less ;-)
 James Pitts (jjpitts) - F Locale: Midwest US Re: Satiety on 01/13/2007 19:09:29 MST By the way, I got my package and, Sarah, thank you so very much for everything! Also, thank you for the recommendations. I love your cookbook, by the way, and bought it as soon as it was published. Keep up the great work!
 Sarah Kirkconnell (sarbar) - F Locale: In the shadow of Mt. Rainier Re: Re: Satiety on 01/13/2007 22:12:22 MST Thank you, James! I figured you wouldn't refuse the freebies I slipped in ;-)
 D T (dealtoyo) - F Locale: Mt Hood 1.25 lbs of food per day? on 01/14/2007 00:38:35 MST The problem isn't that I need the calories, rather that my body quickly digests the small volumes of food (high in calories) and then leaves me feeling empty. I'm not actually starving, it's just a feeling of emptiness in my stomach. Part of the problem is that I drink lots of liquids and I'm guessing that it helps to wash the food too quickly through my system.I have an active job and high metabolism, which means that I eat often. I do eat healthy and carbs are a regular part of my diet. The high daly carb intake of my diet may also be a contributing factor as to why I need bulk rather than calories in order to feel like I'm not starving.As I stated in my previous posts, I'm going to change (at least for a weekend) my hiking pace. The slower pace might mean that my body won't metabolize the food so quickly. It also might reduce the amount of water I will need, which will help to keep the food in my stomach longer (just a theory). I'm also going to incorperate more whole grains in my menu in an effort to keep the "bulk" in my system longer.In my case, this may not be a nutrition issue, but an issue of hiking technique. It also might just be a case of mind over matter (or lack of matter in my stomach). Trial and error, the trial is fun when it helps to reduce the weight of my pack.James, if you find out what foods have a high "satiety response", I hope you will post them. This sounds very interesting to me.
 John S. (jshann) - F Re: 1.25 lbs of food per day? on 01/14/2007 05:46:57 MST Liquids do not wash the food through your system faster if you drink more. Feeling hungry soon after eating may be due to:1. not enough calories2. not enough protein or fiber in meal3. pathological process
 mark henley (flash582) - F Re: Re: but everyone is different on 01/14/2007 06:38:13 MST Eins,Nope, he's not into bodybuilding but he's certainly not a small fella, which brings up a great point buried in your post. He's about 240 and about 6'2" ..... and a 10 mile day backpacking is a pretty good cardio session for him. Not completely out of shape but a good hiker. You've hit a good point here in that his body has to be starving for building material to regenerate. After all, our bodies are always trying to get back to homostasis. He's also been a more traditional backpacker carrying 40 to 50 lb loads. He's become a lightweight packpacker over the last year or so getting to a baseweight of around 12 to 13 lbs .... and that has certainly dropped his caloric needs as well as booosted his mileage.