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Eugene Smith is a beast
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Diplomatic Mike

Locale: Under a bush in Scotland
Training on 11/03/2011 01:08:41 MDT Print View

If i could go back in time, i would have done all of my running off-road. My joints are pretty well beat, and i put that down to years of 90 mile weeks training, mostly on concrete and tarmac. Do yourself a favour, and keep on the grass. :)

Eugene Smith
(Eugeneius) - MLife

Locale: Nuevo Mexico
training on 11/03/2011 06:34:08 MDT Print View

@ Nick,

I'm enjoying this thread very much and listening in, there's some really good discussion going on. I always knew there were more endurance junkies in our midst.

Three years ago I ran an 18:12 my second time running a 5K race, having never done ANY structured speed work or tempo runs leading up. That's not a fast time by 5K runner standards, but I was happy with my finish time having only fed on a diet of 8 minute mile running up and down my local trails with occasional pick ups thrown in and getting in long runs on the weekend with a fair of climbing. I learned that I don't enjoy 5K's very much and haven't run one since, too much pain and a tremendous amount of structured training to get quick. Maybe I'm overdue for one? The only road running I've done this past year has been jeep roads, not sure I want to go back to pavement anytime soon. Craig nailed it on the head, it's like comparing apples to oranges.

There is something to be said about training on trails, the fitness gains are transferrable to road, much how the base fitness from a seasoned road runner can be tweaked for trail ultras pretty quickly. Elite runner Michael Wardian is a perfect example of this (he's a bit of a mutant, so maybe not a perfect example), he's a 2:20 marathoner who kills it at the 50 mile distance and beyond (Marathon de Sables, North Face 50, Western States)

I found some photos from my race, all credit to course photographer Jeff Edgar.

DP2011 337
Somewhere around mile 32-32

DP2011 698
Crossing the finish being greeted by Jim Breyfogle (an awesome 100 mile runner) the RD of Deadman Peaks 50.

I'm getting stoked for whatever is next.

Art ...
(asandh) - F
Re: training on 11/03/2011 08:17:49 MDT Print View

Eugene ... you look strong in those photos, even smiling during an ultra like you're having a good time !

Art ...
(asandh) - F
Re. training - downhill on 11/03/2011 08:28:56 MDT Print View

in my suggestion to lean slightly while running downhill, I specifically said lean at the ankles. not my idea, a fairly standard ultra running concept.
I agree your mid section should try and stay straight.
but a slight lean at the ankles actually propells you downhill and insures that your footplants are not ahead of your center line. Leaning slightly is also more stable, helps keep you off your heals, and helps you react better on rough terraine.

from Ultra Running Magazine :
"When running downhill, lean forward slightly with your whole body so as to maintain the 90-degree alignment of your head-shoulders-hips-ankle with the ground."
Running Form Biomechanics

for those interested, UltraRunning Magazine Online has some good articles on training, nutrition, race logistics, etc.
UltraRunning Magazine Online


Edited by asandh on 11/03/2011 09:00:04 MDT.

Thom Darrah
(thomdarrah) - MLife

Locale: Southern Oregon
Training on 11/03/2011 10:02:26 MDT Print View

"not sure I want to go back to pavement anytime soon."

I enjoy both trail and road running equally. A preferred training run is to go out on the road very early (4:00 am) in the morning and just run in the dark. I can relax and focus on pushing myself rather then being concerned about foot placement and trail obstacles.

My younger years (Eugene's age) were spent training and racing nearly 100% on the road (except for the cross country season) and the transition to trail running has been a revelation. Having said that, road running will always have a special draw and joy for me.

George Matthews
(gmatthews) - MLife
Re: running form on 11/03/2011 10:55:31 MDT Print View

I'm really focusing on my form when running. I believe this is what got me from zero to being able to run a few times a week without problems. Maybe I'm delusional in thinking my progress will continue to where I can finish a 50.

As far a competition, yes I just want to finish, but if I ever get to that level where I can do them, I would like to not be last in my age group : )

Thought this was interesting running article.

The Once and Future Way to Run

Edited by gmatthews on 11/03/2011 10:56:32 MDT.

Mike M
(mtwarden) - MLife

Locale: Montana
training on 11/03/2011 18:02:28 MDT Print View

Gents- thanks for all the helpful tips/links! The Bridger Ridge run is ~ 4 hours (300 miles) away, by Montana standards not too awful far :) If I get in (it's a lottery) I'll definitely try to hit the trail at least a couple of times prior. Some of it's pretty decent trail, a fair amount of it is just scrambling across rock. There is definitely a long, steep drop at the end- so training for down hill makes great sense.

bridger ridge video


Art ...
(asandh) - F
Bridger Ridge Run on 11/03/2011 18:26:25 MDT Print View

that looks like an amazing run, hope you get in.

do they give extra points for being struck by lightning ?

I see Nikki Kimball holds the womens record, she is an amazing athlete.

Here is some event history at Ultrasignup
Bridger at Ultrasignup

Edited by asandh on 11/03/2011 18:27:03 MDT.

Mike M
(mtwarden) - MLife

Locale: Montana
lightning on 11/03/2011 19:34:58 MDT Print View

I'm hoping for 0 points for lightning :)

there is a gal that holds the 60-69 yoa record (for both male and female), she finished the race this year w/ a broken wrist (about 1/2 way through)-pretty darn tough to say the least

Craig W.
(xnomanx) - F - M
Running form on 11/03/2011 20:24:58 MDT Print View

There's nothing delusional about planning to finish a 50 mile your work, play it smart (which it sounds like you're doing), and go get it.

Nice article you linked.

I like the point McDougall seems to make: that with proper form, we can pretty much run in anything. Seems to be the case for me. I've been through the spectrum; started with full-support, motion control shoes, got hurt a lot, went minimal and barefoot for about two years, learned a new running form, and the injuries have stopped. Now I'm HESITANTLY transitioning back into slightly more substantial shoes, seeking a bit more rock protection and padding for the soles. Seems to be going OK though, as I still run with a form I learned from going barefoot and still mix in plenty of running with minimal shoes to maintain form. I'm using the more substantial shoes for longer distances only. We'll see if this works.

Picked up a new pair today that I'm excited about (easy to be excited until you've logged 100 miles and some long runs in them though...). I plan on running the 2012 LA Marathon in March, hoping to PR in the process (want to run under 4 hours, ideally sub 3:50), so I'll be logging some longer road miles than usual. I've been running in the New Balance Minimus Road on pavement, asphalt, and track and really love them after ~350 miles. But I wanted something a touch more cushioned yet still relatively flat and light for longer road runs. Picked up the Mizuno Wave Musha 3 today. Ran a moderate (for me) 5K (26:16) with rolling hills this evening and really like them so far.

Keep the musings coming! Keep the questions rolling! I love talking running...It would be great if "Eugene Smith is a Beast" outlives the Carbon Flame War.

Eugene Smith
(Eugeneius) - MLife

Locale: Nuevo Mexico
Form on 11/04/2011 10:36:27 MDT Print View

I share similar thoughts on footwear as Craig I believe, having slowly over the last few months transitioned back towards footwear with a bit more substantial cushion and upper support. The previous two years I ran in the New Balance MT100, MT101 and the NB Minimus MT10, all great shoes really, but lacking (for me) in the protection I needed for longer runs on my gnarly trails. All of those shoes struck a sweet spot for runs under 15 miles or so, beyond that my feet would eventually get fatigued and my form would suffer. Oddly enough, having switched to the Saucony Peregrine a few months ago, a 4mm drop shoe with midsole cushioning and a burly outsole, has been really good for me. I've had zero leg issues this year whereas in previous years running in flat near zero drop shoes I was battling with nagging IT band issues off and on. It could be the shoe, maybe not, I just know right now I'm running injury free and the only changes I've made is in my footwear.

Art ...
(asandh) - F
shoes shoes shoes on 11/04/2011 11:12:35 MDT Print View

and then there are Hokas.
I lucked out??? and got a pair at 55% off just to test.
I feel like a clown just walking in them and I'm afraid to take them on the trail. I might trip and kill myself.

Mike M
(mtwarden) - MLife

Locale: Montana
running in the cold/snow on 11/05/2011 11:48:08 MDT Print View

was going to start a new thread, but figured this would be a good as place as any :)

what does strategies do folks employ for cold/snow weather running?

I ran this morning about 32 F w/ a 10-15 mph breeze, it was just beginning to spit snow- cap 1 long sleeve shirt, ibex woolies boxers, R1 pants, Houdini windshirt, merino beanie, merino glove liners; little cool to begin w/ but once I got moving it was just about right- the windshirt did a good job of cutting the wind and the light snow just beaded up

Thom Darrah
(thomdarrah) - MLife

Locale: Southern Oregon
running in the cold/snow on 11/05/2011 13:07:58 MDT Print View

Walking out the door early this morning for my run it was 18* with a light wind and threatening to snow (it was snowing as I finished). I used the following:

Top: Craft Zero Crew LS
Bottom: Patagonia Coolweather Tights
Head: Patagonia Alpine Beanie
Hands: Defeet Handskin gloves
Feet: Defeet Wooleator socks.

If colder or snowing at the start I would add a Wildthings epic pullover shell.

Edited by thomdarrah on 11/05/2011 20:12:25 MDT.

Ryan Slack
(RWSlack) - F

Locale: Minnesota
Generic winter layers on 11/05/2011 14:18:49 MDT Print View

I’ll assist on the thread drift after saying “well done” to our resident ultra-distance runner(s). I have done all my winter running in Minnesota and Chicago. This is my general practice for colder runs, dependent on other factors (pace, snow/rain, wind):

>50F: t-shirt or jersey, split shorts.
35-50F: long underwear top (I like wool), light gloves; compression shorts, split shorts.
20-35F: long underwear top, short-sleeve or jersey, light gloves, stocking cap; tights, split shorts.
0-20F: long underwear top, short-sleeve shirt, cheap windbreaker, windproof gloves/mitts, stocking cap, neck gaiter; compression shorts, tights, split shorts.
<0F: add thin pants.

Shoes and socks generally don’t change, though I might put on longer socks to tuck into tights. I don’t think I’ve ever been too cold in this, though my runs are generally 30-90 minutes year-round. I think if I were doing 20+ mile runs in the winter I would do a couple loops to allow return to a central point for hot drinks/refueling.

Deceleration is much more difficult for you and for cars on snow/ice, so be careful.

George Matthews
(gmatthews) - MLife
Re: running in the cold and also running time/mileage gain on 11/05/2011 17:44:38 MDT Print View

Progress : )

Was an incredible morning for me. 9.3 miles - average 10 min per mile

38 F / 5 mph gusts

BPL Merino beanie

Possumdown gloves

BPL Merino UL long sleeve and New Balance synthetic short sleeved T shirt

BPL Merino UL long pant, Patagonia briefs and Royal Robins synthetic shorts

Injinji lightweight mini-crew and original mini-crew

Other: Ipod shuffling Led Zeppelin, Pink Floyd, and Allman Bros

Eugene Smith
(Eugeneius) - MLife

Locale: Nuevo Mexico
"cold" weather running clothing system on 11/05/2011 19:21:48 MDT Print View

My running clothing system doesn't change much through the year, our dry climate and year round sunshine makes it pretty easy to get out the door with very little on. Only thing I have to deal with is brisk clear mornings, (upper teens and 20's) in Dec.-Jan. I usually only have to add a pair of armsleeves into my typical clothing system, a lightweight beanie, and pair of gloves.

For sustained chilly runs in the early morning or evenings:

Top: merino t-shirt or lightweight poly shirt

Arms: merino arm sleeves

Hands: merino gloves

Shell: windshell, only for those brisk and breezy runs in the early morning or evening.

Bottoms: split shorts for anything above 32F and sunny usually, sustained temps below 32F with little sun then I'll use either the Patagonia Coolweather tights or Traverse pants, especially in the evenings.

Socks: whatever doesn't smell or resemble bacon strips, usually merino

Head: Merino wool buff or lightweight capilene beanie (Patagonia, can't remember the model, a few years old, but it's an indispensable headpiece, a miracle piece of kit, wicks sweat like crazy, keeps my head warm, and dries in minutes)

Mike M
(mtwarden) - MLife

Locale: Montana
windshirt on 11/05/2011 20:30:25 MDT Print View

you guys must be tougher than me, I'm pretty sure I would have froze to death w/o the windshirt :)

George- good deal! Probably time I satrted bumping up my mileage a little, I'm close to the 10 minute/mile mark (relatively steep up/down) but my loop is only a little over 3 miles

Craig W.
(xnomanx) - F - M
Hokas on 11/05/2011 21:45:30 MDT Print View

Clown shoes, eh Art?

When I ran the Bishop High Sierra 50K a friend was wearing them...She swears by them. I remember running down a section of scree and sharp, softball-sized rocks at about mile 27. She asked me how my feet were, with a smirk of course...said hers felt like she was running on marshmallows. I, on the other hand, was getting the "full" experience in my MT101s...

But I'll be damned if I wouldn't have to swallow a huge chunk of pride to step outside with those things on...

Curious if they work out for you.

Eugene Smith
(Eugeneius) - MLife

Locale: Nuevo Mexico
Hokas on 11/05/2011 21:58:13 MDT Print View

Hokas? I just can't wrap my mind around those.

Speaking of Hoka, Dave Mackey (Hoka athlete) had his Rim2Rim2Rim record of (6:59:56) bested by Dakota Jones today with a time of (6:53).