Just picked up a new Jam and had a question about the included pad that is in the sleeve for support. Can I remove it and just use my Ridgerest which I bring anyway? I don't know if I will lose any support by removing it? I was thinking of putting the Ridgerest in a big circle and filling the pack up in the middle, will this work?

I would leave the pad in. It used to be very common to take them out to save a few ounces but according to recent test they do imprve the carrying ablitity. Rolling your sleeping bad up works but according to the same tests it works best to fold your pad up against the back.

Give it a shot! If it works for the load you carry, then you found an easy way to save an ounce or two, if not, you can add it back for the next trip.

-David

If you're asking about removing the sleeve itself, I did and regretted it after. It doesn't save much weight. Also, if you ever want to use the pack for travel (where you are not taking the ridgerest) you'll be glad you have it.

A full pad sleeve with a tight fitting pad definitely enhances load carry.

"A full pad sleeve with a tight fitting pad definitely enhances load carry."

I agree completely, but depending on the weight and composition of the load the added enhancement over a Ridgerest may not be needed, hence my suggestion to Kevin to give it a shot and see if it works for him.

-David

I have had several Jams and the pad not required. I had great luck with a Ridgerest in two configurations. First is folded flat. Second is scoring it into a U shape. I would do the first if I were to carry a Jam again and keep my quilt loose to make sure you fill out your pack. If your base weight is in the 12lb range this works well.

I replaced mine with a pad cut from a blue CCF pad, and that helped. Cutting a piece of coroplast to fit in with the pad helps a lot. But if you can replace it with the ridgerest, that would be the way to go. Never tried it myself.

No, I wouldn't cut the sleeve out. Sometimes I use my Exped UL7 and I will leave the pad in but when I take the Ridgerest I was thinking I could take it out and put the Ridgerest in a circular shape around the inside of the pack for support. My base weight is right around 10 lbs.

I would buy a pack that works. Why dump money into a design that needs adaptation (and is still a load of compromises)? There are plenty of UL pack makers out there who have good designs that will incorporate your sleeping pad or have some sort of weight transfer frame sheet, stays or frame that will do the trick-- without being chopped up. If want the weight savings of a frameless pack, you might as well get one that is actually UL and well designed.

I'm of the mind that you get a truly ultralight pack and learn how to pack it properly-- and live with the compromises-- or get a framed pack that will deliver good weigh transfer without doing a Houdini trick to get it loaded. These in-between designs with added padding, pockets, straps and weight are just a waste of time and effort. GoLite started by making very Spartan and truly UL packs and kept adding padding, compression straps, pockets, and heavier fabric. I assume that was to appease the mass market retailers. The cottage makers still rule the nest on the UL packs. If you can access the article at http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/frameless_backpacks_sotm_part1_2011.html it will help you sort it out.

I got tired of the fiddling and my pack loading being dictated by creating weight transfer rather than convenient access to gear on the trail and balance. Droopy packs and stuff poking me in the back didn't cut it for me. I went to an actual framed pack (Osprey Exos) that I can load any way I like and get true weight transfer and a stable comfortable load.

You can remove it and try doing the 'sleeping pad unrolled inside the pack trick.' But I leave mine in since i use a GG thinlite pad with a torsolite and when it's a bit cold under the legs the 1/4" foam in the pack is a good supplement. The real trick to that pack (and other frameless packs) is to pack it so that it supports itself. I use two silnylon drybags to hold the sleeping bag and warm clothes, both stuffed vertically in the bottom.

You seem to know it all, I will be sure to send you a PM when ever I have a question. I have used and own many types of packs. The Golite fits me perfect and is the most comfortable pack I own. If you read my post I am going to be using the Ridgerest next week and was wondering if I could simply take out the foam pad with this set up. You sound like a bitter old man.

Whoah there Sonny, I just gave my opinion. I've owned a Jam (and several other GoLite packs) and didn't care for it. It fit just fine, but the suspension sucked, ego my little rant. I haven't looked at the new ones, but if you can remove the pad non-destructively, what is all the drama about? Pull the thing out and try it with the RidgeRest. I'm sure several folded layers of RidgeRest will give you a stiffer column than the single foam pad.

The caveat is that the RidgeRest won't be captive in a pocket where it picks up weight off the shoulder strap connection and transfers it down to the waist belt, although a single layer of CCF foam isn't going to transfer much weigh before drooping. Careful loading is the trick. A stiffer frame sheet or stays would be the real answer.

No need to get personal or defensive when you get free advice that isn't derogatory towards you. If you don't like my advice, don't follow it! It's a forum, where people *discuss* things. My HUMBLE opinion is that frameless packs suck big time :) Best of luck with your experiments!

I'll go the other way and suggest trying to *add* a section of Ridgerest/Zrest pad cut to the same dimensions as the stock pad. Using both pads seemed to firm up the support in my Pinnacle pack and made it carry the load better. Oh, and I kept the stock pad against my back.

Yes, that adds a few ounces, so if you don't need to, don't do it, but if you have to carry weight anywhere even close to its supposed capacity of the pack it makes it much more comfortable.

Thanks for all the advice, it actually works great for me with the stock pad but I will give it a shot with the Ridgerest next weekend in the Canyon. With my base weight right at 10 lbs I doubt if I notice a difference either way.

Read your response again, I was simply asking about removing a piece of foam or not? And yes, I was asking for free advice, just not your opinion on why I bought the wrong pack. Keep on topic and to the point.

"I would buy a pack that works. Why dump money into a design that needs adaptation (and is still a load of compromises)? There are plenty of UL pack makers out there who have good designs that will incorporate your sleeping pad or have some sort of weight transfer frame sheet, stays or frame that will do the trick-- without being chopped up. If want the weight savings of a frameless pack, you might as well get one that is actually UL and well designed."

I didn't ask you for the opinion above, I personally think this pack is a perfect balance for me. I guess I wasn't thinking how it would fit you when I bought the pack. I am sorry to all of the other posters but this guy struck a nerve, this is the main reason why I started coming over to this board from Backpacker.com. I don't want to be preached to and told I bought the wrong pack.

Kevin harped, "I didn't ask you for the opinion above, I personally think this pack is a perfect balance for me. I guess I wasn't thinking how it would fit you when I bought the pack. I am sorry to all of the other posters but this guy struck a nerve, this is the main reason why I started coming over to this board from Backpacker.com"

Wow, that's quite an attitude. I have the perfect match for your attitude and your pack padding issues:

I love it! Multi-use gear!

In this case, it could double as a balaclava.

Dale, you even give advice on your PDF gear list, you don't get it do you! And quit posting pictures of gear you use to avoid getting out of your bag at nights!

All fun aside, you do seem to know quite a bit so I do apologize. I just bought the pack and am very happy with it. Seemed like you were telling me that I wasted my money on it.

Kevin, to get to the gist of it, your original question shows a general lack of initiative and willingness to experiment. The nature of the question tells me that you don't have the wherewithal to load a frameless pack properly once you get past the rather simple problem of pulling the pad out and putting the folded RidgeRest in. It seems you had to bring it to the forum to validate it before just trying it on your own. I wonder how you will do in the backcountry (or life) if you can't work through such simple things with your gear.

In other words, it was a dumbass question in the first place.

Sorry for asking such a dumb ass question. But I won't have a chance to use the pad until next Thursday, doing a rim to rim in the canyon and was asking other users of the Jam their thoughts to try and lighten my load a little. You win, I give up. And I am also guessing you are not in the corporate world using language like dumbass in a public forum. The moderator needs to calm you down.

Whoa, guys! Cool it down already. You're just talking about a pack, fer cryin' out loud. Kevin, Dale is a very long time, respected member here. He really does know what he is talking about. This is the first time I've seen him get snappy about anything, so I'm surprised. Dale, it's obvious Kevin is still somewhat new to UL; he didn't even know what to call the CF pad cylinder. Perhaps allowing him to become familiar with what us longer term UL'ers now take for granted will eventually have him talking as smoothly about all this as we do? Remember when we cantankerous old farts didn't even know what silnylon was? (and I always spelled it "slynylon") now we're even eating the stuff for breakfast and wearing it as a fashion statement!

Edited by butuki on 10/21/2011 13:46:51 MDT.

I think Kevin overreacted to Dale's 1st post, and I can understand Dale's reaction to that. However, it makes me uneasy that Dale then seems to imply that Kevin is wrong to post a naive or inexperienced question. Is BPL to be only for initiates, or can us newbies ask help from the more experienced members, even if our questions come across as "dumbass" to those who know the answers?
Edit: Isn't it great how BPL's filter allows words like dumbass, but not g*y?

Edited by WilliamC3 on 10/21/2011 14:01:52 MDT.

I didn't even go there until the personal things like "you sound like a bitter old man" came into the fray. I gave some advice he didn't like and was attacked for it, and that is WRONG. If he doesn't like my opinion I have no issue with that, but to go off on me for offering an alternate view of the issue is destructive to the forum concept. I wasn't at all derogatory in my initial response, just bringing my experience with frameless packs to the table. You have never seen me jump anyone outright for the quality of their questions and I've gently pointed a lot of newbies to information to get them on the right foot. I don't think I should get flamed because I point out that it might be the product that is the problem and his approach was trying to make a poor design work rather than taking it back and finding a more suitable product and WHY. His question was so elementally flawed that I assumed he did not grasp the concepts of weight transfer and loading frameless packs. Rest assured, he has left me NO DOUBT at this point!

Dale, yes, okay, okay. I understand your annoyance, and I, too, did a double take when I read that "bitter old man" bit, especially since your post didn't come across that way to me at all. But it is getting kind of silly when we start lobbing diapers at one another, wouldn't you say? Can't you guys just step outside for a bit, take a deep breath, remember how much fun backpacking and gear are, come back inside, and laugh it off? Neither of you come across as unfriendly or unsavory. And you know how easy it is to get sucked into that Internet crap throwing contest once you get started, right (I'm certainly really guilty of it!!! Been trying to learn something from it lately)?

But you know? That diaper image has me thinking...MYOG lower torso insulated vapor barrier out of cuben and Primaloft! We all should be wearing one!

Hey, I lobbed an empty diaper! I had a BBS back before that kid was born--- you don't even want to trade flames with me :) But if the "shoe" fits....

Doggone kids don't know which way to turn a screwdriver without a $%^&* instruction manual. Using "dumbass" was being kind. I feel like the father in the 70's Show!

"....I point out that it might be the product that is the problem and his approach was trying to make a poor design work rather than taking it back and finding a more suitable product...."

I think the original question might have been misunderstood. It didn't sound like he was trying to fix a problem with a poorly designed pack, but rather just trying to save some weight by replacing the included pad with the ridgerest that he carries anyway. I don't really understand what is so dumb about asking that question to see how it has worked for people that may have already tried it....and based on the first several responses it appears that many people have tried it. Nevertheless, I think the response to Dale's first post was a bit of an overreaction....and then things quickly went downhill from there.


"This is the first time I've seen him get snappy about anything, so I'm surprised."

See recent thread on knots/triptease.

See recent thread on knots/triptease.

Yeah, he was being a little nitwit too. That's two threads out of thousands. I'll take my averages :)

I did find that thread pretty helpful. I just might end up replacing the bowline with a figure 8 from now on. Although I'm not sure I'm ready to give up the plastic doo-dads quite yet.

I do apologies, I just got the Golite and wanted to hear others opinions on taking out the pad. I am going on a trip next week and won't have time to practice with it before hand. I have battled punctures with my air mats here in the Southwest and want to experiment with a simpler approach. I guess its really not much about the weight but how the pack performs with out the pad in the sleeve. my base weight has already been around 10lbs for a while so I will actually be adding about 3 more oz to the load. Again Dale, I am sorry to jump to quick conclusions about you and would welcome advice again in the future. I do ask more questions then give answers and I have been an UL backpacker for about 3 years now, it just seems like I am always trying to learn more.

I apologize too. I'm sorry to unload like that to you and the rest of the crew here. Best of luck with your pack.

That discussion was getting pretty dull. Thanks for livening things up a bit. I wouldn't get too concerned about Dale making fun of you. He does that to other people, including me. I think it means he like you, but I'm not sure, he may truly think you're a dumbass.

I 'd like to stay and stir the pot but I ought to get back to getting my pack ready for a little over nighter.

Have fun on the over-nighter, but I think once Dale reads my response on the knot tying thread he will definitely think I am a dumb ass.

By the way, I wouldn't have it any other way with out guys like Dale, over on backpacker.com we had a guy named The Nature Boy who was eventually kicked off. But since he left the forum it was never the same. I don't take any of this personal Dale, you definitely liven things up!

By the way, this one is actually my last post about Dale. I made a mistake in my previous comments.

Sounds like a fun and challenging hike to be doing with your son. I can see why you might be interested in getting your pack dialed. I did a five day wilderness hike with my daughter in August and it was wonderful.

Kevin,
You will notice when you pull out the Jam pad is not a rectangle it has wings at the bottom. The wings help transfer the load to the hips. This is what I would do it will save weight and make the pad more comfortable get a ridgerest long cut the end of the pad to the shape of the of the original Golite jam pad with wings insert in to sleeve.
Now cut the the part of the Ridgerest pad straight were you cut out the winged pack insert. Now you should be able use the unrolled ridgerest as a pack frame and stuff all your equipment in the pack. When you sleep at night use use the pack under your lower legs and feet in sleep on the unrolled pad.
You get amore comfortable back pad when your not hauling backpacking gear.
Terry