Hi all.

I want to modify my Tarptent guylines a bit (and add one off the front), so I was wondering what you all think the best knot for Triptease line is? I want to be able to tie the cord on securely, including making loops that don't slide at the end for stakes.

Bowline? Something else?

Thanks!

A simple bowline is what I use at the ends of my guylines. How will you adjust your line tension if you do not have a hitch/line loc on one end?

"How will you adjust your line tension if you do not have a hitch/line loc on one end?"

Sigh - and people wonder why UL is mocked:

http://www.netknots.com/html/tautline_hitch.html

Hobbes,

I was simply asking the OP what his intentions were for how he would tighten his lines. It appeared that he may have been tying bowline knots at each end which would not allow for tension other than re-staking. There are several ways to do this as you have shown. I use both tautline hitches on my shelter as well as a prussik.

Bowline to attach it to the tent loop, taut line hitch at the stake end for adjustability. Both hold fine with Triptease, unlike with straight dyneema/kevlar etc. lines that won't hold these knots.

Cheers,

Rick

Thanks Eric and Rick. Bowline at the end it is. There are line tensioners on the contrail, so no worries on tightening it on the Contrail side (and no need for a "sigh" either). Just need a loop that holds on the staking-out end. Thanks!

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Edited by dwambaugh on 01/12/2013 17:15:02 MST.

I never realized people took the perceived lack of another's ability to tie a taut-line hitch so personally. And, anyway, I'll stick with my tiny plastic tensioners that work great, and won't feel like any less of an outdoorsman. If they are good enough for Henry Shires, they are good enough for me.

Figure 8 is a really good one too. Especially if you're using it on the stake end. That way you don't have to tie it as a follow through. It's a common knot used in climbing connecting harness to rope, so its pretty strong.

Figure 8 is very easy and fast to tie. Bowline is a great knot too, but easier to make a mistake in my opinion.

Neither slip. Both are good to know.

Edited by jd1987 on 10/14/2011 18:33:04 MDT.

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Edited by dwambaugh on 01/12/2013 17:16:34 MST.

Unfortunately no one is born with the inherited ability to tie knots. Fortunately anyone can learn to tie them if they want to.

welcome to the new BPL, where even the simplest question about what type of knot holds well to make a loop in Triptease can turn quickly into nonsense.

dale, you are needed in the Chaff forum, stat.

>I never realized people took the perceived lack of another's ability to tie a taut-line hitch so personally. And, anyway, I'll stick with my tiny plastic tensioners that work great, and won't feel like any less of an outdoorsman. If they are good enough for Henry Shires, they are good enough for me.

+1

For a loop at the end, I almost always use the "double dragon" or "alpine butterbly." It doesnt seem possible for these to slip. You probably wont have a problem with a bowline in triptease, but as rope gets slicker you need something a bit grippier. I use the double dragon and alpine butterfly almost exclusively now. Personally I think they are easier to tie, too.

take a look her for both of them: www.layhands.com/Knots/Knots_SingleLoops.htm

I love the Tautline Hitch.

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Edited by dwambaugh on 01/12/2013 17:17:27 MST.

Unfortunately no one is born with the inherited ability to tie knots. Fortunately anyone can learn to tie them if they want to.

I'm not sure I can agree with that. My own experience has been that there are knot people and there are those who are not;-)
With enough effort and incentive both can be taught to tie knots today but only the first group will be able to tie the knot tomorrow. The first group picks up on the spatial relationships in the knot on their own and the second group doesn't see them when pointed out (even when using different colors of rope) ... I could go on forever on this. Or perhaps the difference is contained in your words if they want to???

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Edited by dwambaugh on 01/12/2013 17:18:11 MST.

> if you can't learn to tie a taut line hitch, stay home.

Well, I think I can tie a taut-line hitch ... and a few others.

But try adjusting one in a howling snow storm. There are times when it just is not worth the hassle. Not to mention the way a taut-line hitch tends to slip when moved over an ice-coated bit of string. The little plastic Line-Loks bite through the ice very nicely in my experience.

Cheers

I have a pre-tied loop on one end of my guylines. I simply use a larks foot to connect it to the loop on the shelter. A plastic line-lock on the other end. I favour the simplicity of the line-lock in bad weather.

A taut line hitch can sometimes be difficult to get as tight as using a line loc. Line locs are also lost easily, so you still should learn the knot in case you lose it.

Nothing wrong with using them. Don't be bullied or shamed by others into using what they want to shove down your throat ; ).

yea I can relate to that. I've got a buddy that I've climbed with multiple times, and every once in a while he would be like - how do you tie this figure eight again - hmmm.

But we learned to climb together and I went home and practiced tying the knots over and over again where he didn't, so it suck with me more because I really wanted to know them. I still do the same with basically every knot I learn. It may take a little practice to get it down especially to the point where it feels natural.

But I enjoy knowing different knots and being able to use them in different situations where others just aren't sure what to do. So practicing tying them is something I enjoy. I think everyone should obtain a little knot tying knowledge. Even if it takes some work getting there.

Bowlines, figure 8s, taut line hitches, water knots... these are a few good ones to know.

In regard to the OP. Both bowlines and figure 8s would work great and are easy to tie once you learn. They wont slip. Neither will some of the others that have been mentioned.

Just for the record, I know how to tie most of these knots. It was more a question about which knots hold well in Triptease; apparently many do, and for those that actually provided useful input, thanks again!

(Dale, you are having a bad coupla days apparently. Hope you have a better tomorrow.)

"But try adjusting one in a howling snow storm."

What percentage of backpackers are not only 4 season, but are willing to head out during a winter storm? My guess is that 95%+ are 3 season at most, with perhaps 75% limited to 1 season. Out of the remaining 5%, I would venture to guess that 95% wait for storms to pass first.

(That is, go out in glorious snow covered mountains under crystal clear blue skies. This activity is actually pretty popular in the Sierra, where x-country skiers come out in droves after a big dump.)

If you are in the very small minority that is willing/capable of dealing with winter storm conditions, then your choice of equipment could hardly be questioned. But that's the key - you have both knowledge & judgment regarding your specific environment. You use both to make critical decisions, with your comment about line-lok vs taught line evidence that you know what works best given those conditions.

But let's get back to the 75%; what is a base-line prerequisite of knowledge & judgment? Or is there one? I would suggest there is, just like there is in any active sport.

For any form of backpacking, UL or otherwise, I would include: knowing some basic knots, knowing how to light a fire, knowing how to read a map, knowing how to erect a tent/tarp/shelter, etc. In short, something every 13 yo kid in BSA learns.

I don't care if it's fishing, surfing, skiing, etc - one should assume the responsibility of "not being that guy". That means a little research, watching some video, asking 'how to' questions, etc.

This thread would have gone in a completely different direction if the OP had directly asked for some tips/directions on knots.

>>This thread would have gone in a completely different direction if the OP had directly asked for some tips/directions on knots.

He did. To wit:

"I was wondering what you all think the best knot for Triptease line is?"

The person you initially replied to was Eric.

I think everyone should know half a dozen or so useful knots. Whether an individual chooses to use knots or not on their tarp guylines doesn't affect me in the least and I'm hard-pressed to come up with a reason I should care.

Got to say... I'm with DaveT on this one.

Hi Hobbes

> but are willing to head out during a winter storm?
OK, good point, except!
In our country at least, we can have fine sunny weather in the morning and a howling storm an hour later. Yes, it can change inside of one hour. You can NOT predict the weather here in the mountains. I would imagine that happens in other places as well.

What that means is that our gear has to be able to handle the very bad conditions even if we are going out in very fine weather with a reasonable forecast. Knowing that this can happen and allowing for it is part of the 'base-line prerequisite of knowledge & judgment' which you rightly mention.

Are taut-line hitches part of the base-line? Well ... maybe not. I know many people simply have a solid loop at the end of their guy rope and they move the stake to adjust the tension. Done that myself plenty of times too.

Knowing how to use map and compass? Oh yes, you are dead right there! That is a base-line requirement in my book.

Cheers

"You can NOT predict the weather here in the mountains."

Don't you have a government weather service that does predictions?

Around here, I can get 10-day predictions with some moderate accuracy.

--B.G.--

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Edited by dwambaugh on 01/12/2013 17:19:51 MST.

lol @ weather predictions.

I went hiking in the northern sierras and the rangers station checked the weather for me, said it was going to be beautiful (around mid 20's at night) and perhaps a light mist.

I got up about 3/4 of the way up to our destination and we were hit by snow. We decided to make camp there for the night and it got down to 6 degrees, and threw powder/water on us all night. Oh, did I mention the HURRICANE FORCE WINDS? For some reason a storm just kind of appeared, snapped one of my buddies DAC tent poles, haha.

Unexpected weather, but it was still a very fun trip :)

"'You can NOT predict the weather here in the mountains.'

Don't you have a government weather service that does predictions?

Around here, I can get 10-day predictions with some moderate accuracy.

--B.G.--"


Not if your life depends on it. Consider the National Weather Service reports for Washington State: Seattle weather accuracy was about 75% last year; move up to Nooksack, at the base of Mount Baker and you get 67%; Forks (West Olympics at sea level) 70%; Deer Park (North Olympics) 65%; East Wenatchee (east end of Stevens Pass) 48% !!!

(see http://www.forecastadvisor.com/browse/)

The Olympics and Cascades are highly effected by jet stream shifts and there are significant rain shadow and convergence zones. SIngle day snowfall can vary by FEET in a 50 mile area, as can storm tracks and wind force.

Years ago I saw a chart on weather accuracy that varied from 100% (white) to single digits (black). The western US deserts were white and there were various shades of gray around the country to black in the Puget Sound region and the Gulf of Alaska. If you believe the weatherman in Seattle, I have a couple floating bridges that I will sell you cheap too ;)

Dale, I didn't make any claims about prediction accuracy in your area, did I?

--B.G.--

The Bowline and the Tautline Hitch are probably the best two knots for tent guylines, at least those are the two I use. You can carry this along as a reminder on how to tie them, if you forget.

Edited by Cephalotus on 10/15/2011 17:44:19 MDT.

Hi Bob

> Don't you have a government weather service that does predictions?
Yep, they predict, but only for about 5 days I think. And that is only for the lowlands.
As OPs have mentioned, in the mountains, 'things happen'.

We had made camp on a bright fine calm sunny day in autumn, and thought we would visit a nearby mountain hut. One hour later, on our way back, we were hit with 1 cm hail. Quite unpredicted.

I have some photos of our camp in the snow way up high in beautiful fine weather. During the night we had a howling gale with millimetre-size corn snow or mini-hail. Total white-out in the morning. Quite unpredicted.

We were camped just under a ridge in the snow, quite comfortably, one evening. The weather was sort-of average. During the night it suddenly got so hot I was sleeping on top of my quilt - in the snow. In the morning there was a lot of grass around us!

We came across an abandoned campsite up high but not too far from a road. Baby's nappies, raw vegetables, some gear, skins for skis, and other stuff scattered around. A couple with baby had been camped there in the snow in fine weather with their gear outside the tent when bad weather hit. They had got out as best they could.

We don't take a real lot of notice of the forecasts ... We just assume the worst.

Cheers

Edited by rcaffin on 10/16/2011 01:48:05 MDT.

Roger, I think you Aussies have the same problem with weather prediction that we have in the U.S.A. It's hard to predict anything with all of that hot air in the government.

--B.G.--

"I was wondering what you all think the best knot for Triptease line is? I want to be able to tie the cord on securely, including making loops that don't slide at the end for stakes."


In case you can't read and/or comprehend, these two OP sentences are asking what the best knot for Triptease line is, and asking about tying cord on securely, including in a non-sliding loop. Nowhere does it ask about adjustable knots (e.g. the much-storied tautline hitch) or imply that I (or others) don't know how to tie knots in rope. I think you should start a Gear (or perhaps Gear Chaff, if we can add that forum Addie?) entitled "Linelocks... for lame-ass wannabies?" if you wanna expectorate upon that. Weather reports? Just don't know.

Again, thanks to all the folks who provide helpful comments in response to the OP. Much appreciated!

Dale, you also are providing a helpful lesson in what I don't want to become when I grow up. So thanks too!

Carry on.

Edited by DaveT on 10/15/2011 19:37:49 MDT.

Dave, we might want to set the record straight. In your original posting, you said that this was for guylines. There are all sorts of ways that guylines get used with knots. However, a high percentage of those ways involve adjustable knots. That's how the adjustable knot discussion came around. There are ways with fixed knots as well, but then you generally want to have a plastic adjuster involved to deal with the tension. So, everybody here had a different way of looking at the issue, not just yours.

--B.G.--

Lets face it a bowline, regardless of effectiveness, is an ugly knot. What with that misshapen line sticking out all awkward like and all. On the other hand, a double figure eight seems like ostentatious overkill for a guy-line. A simple overhand knot? - may work fine but does it look lazy and uninspired? A perfection knot? -an attractive symmetry but is it too pretentious?

"There are all sorts of ways that guylines get used with knots. However, a high percentage of those ways involve adjustable knots."

I'm sort of confused. Could you explain a few of those ways? I haven't taken the guylines off my tarp/tent ever since the advent of line locs, and a combination of an overhand or figure 8 knot and a line loc has always sufficed quite nicely. As Roger C correctly observed, adjustable knots don't fare so well in icy conditions.

Tom, the original posting asked nothing at all about use in icy conditions.

If you read up a bit, some people are bypassing the use of plastic adjusters by using adjustable knots. There are different kinds of adjustable knots. Some people learn one adjustable knot and then stop right there. Others experiment with different adjustable knots until they find one that works for them. I hope that helps with your confusion.

--B.G.--

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Edited by dwambaugh on 01/12/2013 17:21:33 MST.

The new BPL. Even the "old timers" are getting in on the new marginal vibe.

Again, thanks to the folks who had actual helpful answers. Everyone else who wants to read lots into a simple question and somehow fashion it into crazy responses, I just dunno about ya.

Specifically, Dale, nah, not yuppie scum, I was thinking along the lines of crabby old f*ck. Unless someone hijacked your account, and then I'm sorry.

.........

Edited by dwambaugh on 01/12/2013 17:23:49 MST.

Hey Dave T- beside the entertainment value, a lot of us got good useful information out of this thread. In particular, the alpine butterfly knot that Terry G. suggested and Dale's suggestion of putting the tautline at the tarp loop end. Good stuff. So thanks for putting up with a little abuse on our behalf. Don't be expecting any slack on chaff though.

.........

Edited by dwambaugh on 01/12/2013 17:22:56 MST.

All this talk about growing a pair, guts and brains and personal initiative is upsetting to me. Besides I don't need any of those things, I have a button on my PLB.

"I sure wouldn't want to hike with someone who couldn't tie a few knots to stabilize a broken limb, let alone pitch a #$%^&* tarp properly."

I wouldn't want to hike with someone who yells, swears and berates me about little things like knots. You may actually be a crabby old guy. If you keep it up I am going to suggest your vicinity as the right place to retire on a bush-crafter forum.

.........

Edited by dwambaugh on 01/12/2013 17:24:33 MST.

"If you read up a bit, some people are bypassing the use of plastic adjusters by using adjustable knots."

I think I'd have had to dig pretty deep to uncover that little nugget, Bob, and once I did I'd have been hard pressed to derive any use from the information. Thanks for saving me the trouble.

"There are different kinds of adjustable knots. Some people learn one adjustable knot and then stop right there. Others experiment with different adjustable knots until they find one that works for them. I hope that helps with your confusion."

Actually, my question had to do with all those unspecified uses of guy lines that required adjustable knots, so I'm afraid I'm still confused. But thank you for your efforts to enlighten me.

BTW; I'm reasonably familiar with adjustable knots and, to this day, have found only one, the clove hitch, to be of much use to me. I consider the others to be mostly merit badge material. But that's just me: an unabashed KISS principle disciple to the bone.

Many, many years ago, and many thousands of miles away, I was a young man in the military. One summer, our commander had us form up a mountaineering school with primary focus on rappelling. As one of the instructors, my first class was how to tie knots, not not how to tie knots. However, I only needed to teach those knots that were applicable to a vertical rope experience.

So, I taught basics: square knot, granny knot, half-hitch, bowline, and a prussik. I suppose that a prussik may or may not be an adjustable knot, depending on how you look at it.

To this day, I believe that those knots are the only ones that I can tie without thinking. I have to think to tie a tautline and some others. If I am just setting up camp on a nice day, it doesn't matter. If I am out in the middle of a blizzard at 12,000 feet with the sun setting, then I may not have much brain power left, so I have to keep to just the knots that I can tie automatically.

I wonder if many of the thousands of my knot students can still tie anything after all of these many years. I guess knot.

--B.G.--

Great thread here.

Clove hitch is a good one.

A clove hitch holds better than I expected it to, also. I tried with Triptease, using it for both ends of one of my ridge line tie outs this evening; a clove hitch on the trekking pole tip that I stuck through the ridge line D-ring, and one on the stake.

Ray Jardine's Tarp Book Essential has a pretty good section on knots, including a clove hitch with a quick release. Craig Connally's book on mountaineering also has a good section on knots, though some might not work so well with line as thin as Triptease, even if their only failure is not coming undone easily.

I think the easiest, best and most obvious knot to use to make a fixed loop in triptease for attaching to the tent is the figure 8. The only reason to use a bowline for a knot here is if you would regularly want to tie and untie it. The figure 8 can be very hard to untie once it has tightened up. The figure 8 is much easier to learn and tie too.

Maybe I am getting the terminology wrong here. A figure 8 used by climbers (figure 8 follow through) is hard to tie, but that is used to tie around something. A figure 8 to make a loop in the end of a rope (figure 8 on a bight) is a breeze, fold the line over and make an overhand knot creating a loop.

"A figure 8 used by climbers (figure 8 follow through) is hard to tie, but that is used to tie around something"

It's actually very easy if you practice it a bit. It becomes almost automatic.

I like to use lightweight handguns to anchor my shelter instead of stakes, little heavier but they are multi-use- just be careful where you locate the knot and and extra careful when you snug up the guy lines :)

never thought I'd see a knot question becoming contentious (of course the anti-knot folks tend to be a little on the radical side)

Lets face it a bowline, regardless of effectiveness, is an ugly knot. What with that misshapen line sticking out all awkward like and all. On the other hand, a double figure eight seems like ostentatious overkill for a guy-line. A simple overhand knot? - may work fine but does it look lazy and uninspired? A perfection knot? -an attractive symmetry but is it too pretentious?

Thanks for the chuckle, David. I tie lots of perfection loops (hey, works great for fishing too) I will forever feel self conscious :)

.

Edited by jimver on 10/19/2011 14:53:36 MDT.

I'm sorry, but I just apologized to Dale on another thread and then read what he pointed out on this thread. Start at the top and look at his responses and you be the judge, is he is a reasonable or intelligent man?. He has gone over the edge on more than just me. Dale you have to realize that I am not an expert and quite frankly I don't know your credentials either, but this is a place where people seek info. I actually don't think I ever want to reach the point where I am an expert like your-self, I enjoy researching and hearing others opinions. I promise this will be the last post on Dale and hope he remembers what this sport is suppose to be about, relaxation, clearing the mind, and not being around critical people on the weekends. At least for me!

Rim to Rim with my son next week, doesn't get any better than that!

I take it all back, he just apologized to me!!

Edited by kevinharper2 on 10/21/2011 23:55:03 MDT.

My, my, my.

Dale is really a nice person (online at least I have never met him), and always very helpful. Perhaps he had a couple bad days. I would not take anything personally.

Regarding knots... I found out last year that I have been tying my shoe laces incorrectly for the past 56 years! But I have lived through all of it :)

>Regarding knots... I found out last year that I have been tying my shoe laces >incorrectly for the past 56 years! But I have lived through all of it :)

Heretic! Burn the heretic! :)

(just a wee suggestion that trucker's knots are very useful for being able to really reef down on the line and tighten it nicely. Finish with a slip knot for easy untying.) (Dale, are you having MEN 'o pause? :o)~ if so, duct tape and/or Jack Daniels solves most problems.)

I use line locs for the adjustable end and a simple overhand loop for attaching to my tarp. The overhand loop, despites it's nickname in climbing circles (European Death Knot) is very secure. It's only downside is in thin line like triptease it's hard to untie. However, I leave my guylines attached to my tarp anyway.

If I want easily removable guylines (like for poncho tarp) then I just make the overhand loop outside of the tarp attachment point, and use it to girth hitch the line onto the poncho tarp when necessary.

[As a side note: there are always arguments in the climbing community regarding knots. There are those who believe they should sit at home learning to tie dozens of knots for specific circumstances; and then there are those who believe you should learn how to use 4 or 5 knots to do everything you need - from anchoring all the way to self rescue.

I believe in the latter, because those 4 or 5 knots might not be the absolute best knot for any given circumstance, but you've tied them all so many times that you're not going to screw them up under stress, like in a storm or rescue situation.]

" believe in the latter, because those 4 or 5 knots might not be the absolute best knot for any given circumstance, but you've tied them all so many times that you're not going to screw them up under stress, like in a storm or rescue situation.]"

+1