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Nick Gatel
(ngatel) - MLife

Locale: Southern California
Re: Re: Re: Re: Pleasantly Surprised on 10/05/2011 16:57:59 MDT Print View

Adam,

That quote was in no way directed at Tyler. It was just a clarification that folks who do not openly advocate positions against BSA guidelines are probably not going to be bothered by the BSA. Those who openly advocate will be singled out.

Kier Selinsky
(Kieran) - F

Locale: Seattle, WA
Parent's Perspective on 10/05/2011 18:15:21 MDT Print View

I saw this statement early on in this thread and thought I could shed some light:
The people who put their kids in Boy Scouts do so, at least in part, because of what it preaches.

So, I just saw this thread and thought it interesting because, as the parent of a cub scout, it's something I've wrestled with the past few years. My faith (nature=God) probably wouldn't stand the BSA litmus test, and I have many g4y (BPL doesn't allow the "g" word?) friends that I wouldn't want to see discriminated against, and therefore of course I am against antig4y discrimination.

What I've seen so far is that the actual cub scout pack behavior doesn't touch on these hot buttons at all. In Ohio, the most that was ever done in either direction was one day a year, the scouts had the opportunity to participate in a church program and light candles. It wasn't mandatory or anything, just the opportunity was there. Now that I'm in the Seattle area, it's less than that. I know the cub scout pack is associated with a church, but I can't remember which one for the life of me.

Is this covering my eyes? Yeah, I guess in a way it is. Do I want the BSA to change the discriminatory position? Absolutely. Most importantly right now though, my son is in the local pack where things are pretty good. There actually are some g4y folks in our pack. No one appears to be religious or if they are, they keep it to themselves. My son is learning some great things - civic pride, how to be a good friend, respect for nature, etc. without being exposed to any of the discrimination.

My son is a Webelo right now, so he's still in that "age of innocence" thing. Before he crosses over to Boy Scouts though, we're going to be having a talk. I'm going to be explaining to him some of these darker secrets of the BSA, which are definitely counter to our values as a family and to him as a person. And I'm going to explain to him that he has a choice: he can choose to leave the organization and not be associated with such a thing, and that is a respectful path to take. Or he can choose to try to change the organization, in whatever way he feels he best can, and that is also a respectful path to take.

I know some on here have said that if you don't agree with an organization's rules or standards that you shouldn't be a part of that organization. But I don't think that's the only path. The BSA does not belong to the people running it today, they're only it's stewards till it transfers to the youth of tomorrow. The BSA belongs to my son and all the other kids out there today and tomorrow. If they want to change it, to make it better, then I can't see any good reason against that.

After all, what's more American than working to make the greater civic body better than it was yesterday?

Adam Kilpatrick
(oysters) - MLife

Locale: South Australia
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Pleasantly Surprised on 10/05/2011 18:56:51 MDT Print View

No worries Nick. Yep you are dead right there...you'll be singled out if you make noise :-)


"I know some on here have said that if you don't agree with an organization's rules or standards that you shouldn't be a part of that organization. But I don't think that's the only path. The BSA does not belong to the people running it today, they're only it's stewards till it transfers to the youth of tomorrow. The BSA belongs to my son and all the other kids out there today and tomorrow. If they want to change it, to make it better, then I can't see any good reason against that."

Dead on :-)

Edited by oysters on 10/05/2011 18:59:11 MDT.

Clint Wayman
(cwayman1) - M

Locale: East Tennessee, US
ok, so this makes $.04 =D on 10/05/2011 19:59:55 MDT Print View

"Finally, the only thing I aim to preach in BSA is love for people and for the outdoors. Plain and simple."

+1+1+1+1 (I feel like the teacher from 'A Christmas Story' A++++++)

+1 to Doug's last post. Discussion is more fun than arguing.

Miguel,
You are absolutely right; I do not personally know you or your religious background. I was simply refuting the implication that an individual knows the 'inner operations' of Christianity simply because he/she grew up in a specific denomination and attended a religious school, as your post suggested. I have known plenty of individuals who attend _________ Church but couldn't tell you the first thing about real Christianity.

As for the BPL-BSA comparison, it was just that (a comparison) and NOT a direct relationship. Lightweight backpacking seems to be fundamental to the BPL community and the religious beliefs/principles of BSA are fundamental to the organization. That was the correlation drawn between the two--nothing more.

Jennifer McFarlane
(JennyMcFarlane) - MLife

Locale: Southern California
nm on 10/05/2011 20:51:48 MDT Print View

nm

Edited by JennyMcFarlane on 10/05/2011 20:53:22 MDT.

Miguel Arboleda
(butuki) - MLife

Locale: Kanto Plain, Japan
Re: BSA discrimination policy :( on 10/06/2011 19:32:17 MDT Print View

Miguel, I agree that homosexuals should not be persecuted in any way. I don't think anyone here has come close to expressing they support that. At most, some have expressed that their beliefs are in line with the Church's ,which I take to mean that they consider homosexuality a sin. That belief, while upsetting, is not something that can be eradicated with a law. Through education, through examples of the many outstanding homosexuals in society, through people coming out in the open, through intolerance for inciting any kind of violence and harm directed at our friends, through meaningful discussion even here on BPL, we will hopefully get there sooner rather than later.

Yeeees. I'm not sure why you decided to single out my statement... How did I differ from what you just said in any way? Aren't I discussing and joining in the effort to educate just by posting here? And where did I mention anything about a "law"? Even though I do not believe in Christianity, I nowhere said anything about getting rid of Christians, didI? I did not once write that Christians don't have a right to believe in their god or to live the way they want to... I merely pointed out that, as in all other parts of American society, bigotry and discrimination do not have a place in the society. If Christians promote harassing or ostracizing or making life difficult for, or even violence toward homosexuals, sorry, I will stand up and call it out. I'd do the same if homosexuals did that. Just because "Christians believe homosexuality is a sin" does not mean that it is all right to hold that belief and act upon it. Christianity is a belief system, a construct, homosexuality is not. The belief system can be changed, homosexuality cannot. Polygamy is a product of belief, too, and can easily be engaged in or not. Not so with homosexuality. When Christians start preaching, everywhere, that "homosexuality is a sin" and influencing how people see homosexuals, that is bigotry and discrimination and hate mongering, pure and simple. You can be laissez-faire about that if you want and just let the abuse and marginalization and withdrawal of their rights (marriage for instance) go on without protest, but I can't sit idly by while one gigantic and powerful group like the Christian church goes about influencing and goading millions of people around the world into hating homosexuals. Sorry it is simply wrong. If that makes me discriminatory, then so be it.

Katharina ....
(Kat_P) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Coast
Re: Re: BSA discrimination policy :( on 10/06/2011 19:40:39 MDT Print View

Miguel, I did not single you out to attack you .Only part of my post was related to yours. I think we want the same thing but may not have the same approach to how that will be achieved. I actually asked for help in my dilemma.
And I do think homosexuals should be able to marry, FWIW

Edited by Kat_P on 10/06/2011 19:43:04 MDT.

Katharina ....
(Kat_P) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Coast
? on 10/06/2011 19:45:08 MDT Print View

"You can be laissez-faire about that if you want and just let the abuse and marginalization and withdrawal of their rights (marriage for instance) go on without protest, but I can't sit idly by while one gigantic and powerful group like the Christian church goes about influencing and goading millions of people around the world into hating homosexuals. Sorry it is simply wrong. If that makes me discriminatory, then so be it."

where did I say "without protest" ?

Ken Helwig
(kennyhel77) - MLife

Locale: Scotts Valley CA via San Jose, CA
Re: ? on 10/06/2011 20:33:56 MDT Print View

All these posts in Chaff are really starting to hurt my head.
E

Edited by kennyhel77 on 10/06/2011 20:37:39 MDT.

jennifer ross
(jenhifive) - F

Locale: Norcal
Re: Infiltration and my own defense on 10/06/2011 21:00:51 MDT Print View

"I think the real issue is those that are "openly" advocating views that are contrary to what the BSA believes. Of course if someone joins as a member or employee with the desire to change things, then they would need to be "open" in their attempts for change."

I know every single thing I post anywhere is completely twisted, people attempt to demean me and make me look stupid, I frequently "argue" while never making my stance. I had a discussion with a teacher I work with (yes at walmart, at one point we had 5) yesterday. He doesn't know I'm g@y so while he complained about california public school books being changed to let the kids know that being g@y is normal. I wasn't sure about the new law but I let him know that suicide is the highest within lgbtq teenagers. I never said my stance I just presented facts and said maybe there was a good reason. I have conversations with people about meat all the time and never say I don't eat it, but I discuss it. So it is completely plausible that he could be a leader and just suggest different ideas, promote understanding and acceptance.

In regards to the comments regarding me personally (not my thoughts or ideas) I'd like to let it be known arguing is NOT horrible. If you have a point and I have a point, we each argue our points. Since the word "argue" has been twisted I'd like to remind everyone that "argue" is not so different than the word "discuss" (semantics) here is the definition:
"to present reasons for or against a thing: He argued in favor of capital punishment." This is different than what goes on in here. Please don't presume to know me either.

jennifer ross
(jenhifive) - F

Locale: Norcal
Re: A preference for eggs vs. being g@y on 10/06/2011 21:35:21 MDT Print View

"On one hand you say you "get it" and on the other you say "BUT"..I think it has more to do with wanting to make others who don't agree with your particular position to have to inforce your brand of "institutional requirements""

There is a huge difference between "egg likers" and constantly hearing bigoted remarks about yourself. People don't say "egg likers" are going to h3ll, they're sinners, they're disgusting, they need therapy to fix them because they are mentally ill, that they're sexual deviants and yes, that they shouldn't have or be left alone with children. You're also talking about a preference which would mean we have a choice. This is who we are, I don't know why anyone would choose to have such a tough time.

Personally, being a girl, I haven't had it so bad. But my brother is also g@y and after hearing all the harassment he's endured (mostly from his supervisors at work in manufacturing) over the years I can understand and appreciate why someone would want to help keep the playing field neutral. A lot of people here talk about love and respect for other human beings and after watching t.v. preachers preach about us and the things that come out of people's mouths that don't know about me, some of these kids might need to hear "just because they're this way doesn't make them a bad person". Maybe we wouldn't be feared and ridiculed if there was an open-minded individual they can talk to. Also, maybe struggling children and teens would be able to confide in this open-minded individual.

"Should G@y group have to allow Christians to be leaders in their group?
Its endless..."

Most lgbtq are christians. Many of them just don't go to church because they don't take the bible literally. Not to get into a big debate and I know many people here can quote a lot of the bible, some of the stuff in there is a little off (thus making me an athiest at 11 years old).

Adam Kilpatrick
(oysters) - MLife

Locale: South Australia
Re: Re: A preference for eggs vs. being g@y on 10/06/2011 21:43:41 MDT Print View

I have to say, I feel for you and your brother Jennifer. Must suck copping crap like that.

jennifer ross
(jenhifive) - F

Locale: Norcal
Re: Re: Re: A preference for eggs vs. being g@y on 10/06/2011 23:53:56 MDT Print View

Don't feel sorry for me. I hear it but I haven't experienced anything compared to what the guys get. My best friend from high school came out to me when he was 20, he's now 27, still a "virgin", and still not out. He's out to all of his girl friends but won't come out at work for fear of being treated differently from the guys. His twin brother and little brother are also g@y. His little brother's been out since he was 15 and his twin can finally come out since dadt has been repealed.

Literally as I type this I'm watching cbssac news about a 16 year old in sac that has stopped going to school because he's being harrassed. Kids throw trash and pennies at him. He hears f@ggot everyday. He's going to try to go back and the school's solution is having him use the faculty bathroom.

I think the point about the discrimination is how can they stand for all these good things yet teach intolerance of different religious beliefs or sexual orientation? It is one of those things that "I can kind of understand BUT..." Someone compared nambla, white supremacists and boys and girls scouts of america for their free right to organize but I wouldn't patronize nambla's or a racial discriminatory cookies twice a year. Even if they never preach about religion or sexual orientation I don't like that they don't promote diversity so I just won't buy their cookies. Keebler makes a samoa-type cookie anyway so...

Arapiles .
(Arapiles) - M

Locale: Melbourne
Re: Re: BSA on 10/07/2011 08:04:28 MDT Print View

""BSA has had more than enough trouble in the past with child abuse from closet homosexuals. "

They were not closet homosexuals, they were pedophiles. There's a difference, and a rather large one at that."

+1

Katharina ....
(Kat_P) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Coast
Re: Re: ? on 10/07/2011 09:21:06 MDT Print View

Come on Ken. Don't pick on me now ;)
This is not a bad thing. Chaff come in waves. No one has to read it, only legitimate beef is from those that have to scroll through recent posts and don't want to deal with this. Other than that this has been a good discussion. I have come away from it with some food for thought.Several posts, including Jennifer and Tyler's have given me some insight that is helping me shape my approach. While I have lunch with two Lesbian coworkers every week, we don't discuss this much, because I feel like we are on the same page and all is good. We butt heads on Union talk, but that is another issue.
For the most part I think our Chaff is great! We share a love for the outdoors, we are not brought together by our political views, so we get to hear all kinds of perspectives and that is really good. We get to see how we are not divided into two or possibly 3 factions and if more of us can draw from every side on different issues and come away less married to one party or another....it's good.
I am guilty, as are a few others, of talking down or disrespectfully at times, and for that I am sorry, including to you Jennifer.
If we could only find a way to not annoy those that don't want to scroll through all the chaff in recent posts, then this would be perfect. But everybody has a choice to click on it or not, just like the ads :)

jennifer ross
(jenhifive) - F

Locale: Norcal
Re: BSA on 10/07/2011 18:55:36 MDT Print View

"If your beliefs arent in line with theirs, fine. But if thats the case you dont belong, and probably would not be welcome anyway.

BSA is not a backpacking/hiking/outdoor club. It is an organization that shapes young people to be model citizens, and uses the outdoors as part of that process."

Is that the requirement to be a model citizen now? Straight and god-fearing? So I can be everything else but still be a second rate citizen? Hmm, sounds familiar...

Miguel Arboleda
(butuki) - MLife

Locale: Kanto Plain, Japan
Discourse on 10/07/2011 19:13:51 MDT Print View

Ken, I realize that a lot of these kinds of discussions in Chaff may seem like just a bunch of malcontents slugging it out, but, aside from occasional uncontrolled crash landings, for the most part the people discussing things in Chaff really enjoy the intellectual challenge these discussions present. Sure it's not backpacking, but, ( like it seems to me for instance) maybe you can see it as what it is that people end up talking about when the day's walking is done and you're sitting around the fire swapping thoughts and tales. Sometimes it's funny, sometimes it's serious, sometimes uncomfortable, sometimes everyone connects. We're all people here, interacting with one another. Some people may not like intellectual discussions, but others certainly do, and this is where we can find people who think in the same way (which doesn't mean "agree") and open up. There are a lot of very interesting people here, some very well educated and knowledgeable, some with the ability to see what the rest of us can't see... and together it allows us to look at important topics and learn about them. If you're wondering what use this might have, perhaps a good example might be, for you Americans with your precious "Forefathers", how it is that those early leaders managed to come up with the Constitution and the Bill of Rights. The ideas didn't just pop into everyone's heads and everyone immediately agreed on all the points. It took a lot of discussions just like we're having here, and I'm certain there must have been a lot of emotional spats and disagreements, perhaps even big fights. But in the end, because everyone wanted to make a difference and to actually talk, they whittled down their ideas till they became what you have today. I love these kinds of discussions, even if at times I get a headache, feel mortified, or get outraged by what someone is saying. They keep me on my toes, they force me to reevaluate myself, and they allow me to think hard beyond the obvious. I learn something nearly every time, including things I never would have expected. I think, as you have invited in your other thread, if we all got together to go hiking, most of us would get along really well, probably many of us would become fast friends.

Edited by butuki on 10/07/2011 19:43:08 MDT.

jennifer ross
(jenhifive) - F

Locale: Norcal
Re: Discourse on 10/07/2011 19:22:09 MDT Print View

+1 @ Miguel

Miguel Arboleda
(butuki) - MLife

Locale: Kanto Plain, Japan
Re: BSA on 10/07/2011 19:28:21 MDT Print View

Is that the requirement to be a model citizen now? Straight and god-fearing? So I can be everything else but still be a second rate citizen? Hmm, sounds familiar...

This is exactly the point that people who have anything against Gays just don't understand, and what I am so against the BSA policy about. It's as if there is something inherently wrong with being Gay (I won't argue against the BSA's desire to remain religious... that is their prerogative) and they, unlike other people, don't have a moral and dignified right to be part of society. As I said earlier, and so many Gays before, homosexuality is not a "belief". It's an inborn, natural part of those people, just like being heterosexual.

Edited by butuki on 10/07/2011 19:28:54 MDT.

Doug I.
(idester) - MLife

Locale: MidAtlantic
Re: Discourse on 10/07/2011 19:30:54 MDT Print View

"for you Americans with your precious "Forefathers","

Hey, stop generalizing. They weren't precious to me. I always thought they were pretty Gay, what with those wigs and hose and all.... No way they could have been model citizens dressed like that....