The BPL search function won't work for me, tried it with 2 different browsers on 2 computers.

I am in the market for a 2-person cuben shelter and I want to keep things light. I don't want just an UL version of a traditional tent. Been doing a lot of reading. Seems like there are 3 general varieties of light/ultralight shelters:

- flat or catenary tarp
- flat or catenary tarp with beaks or some other moderate degree of closure
- fully enclosed shelter (cub den, hexamid, duomid)

My target environment is the Appalachians with perhaps a future foray out West but not in winter. Since cuben shelters ain't cheap, I really can't afford to get the wrong kind of shelter and then say 'oh well'. I can't afford to have a different shelter for every possible condition.

So I'm thinking that a good compromise between the openness of a tarp and the bombproofness of an enclosed single wall tent is the 'beaked' tarp. Contenders would be something like the MLD Patrol Shelter, the Gossamer Gear SpinnShelter (in cuben), or the Bearpaw Canopy Tent (in cuben, with moderate beaks).

Does this sound reasonable? It would be great to hear from those who have dealt with something similar.

I don't mean to constantly beg for input but it's really tough to choose solely via the 'net, seeing none of these items in person.

"The BPL search function won't work for me, tried it with 2 different browsers on 2 computers."

Don't feel bad. It isn't much good to anybody.

--B.G.--

I'm in the same boat as you are right now. What I've started doing is I've set up a word doc with columns noting manufacturer, price, weight and features. I'm in the market for a backpack and a tarp or tarp/net (tent) and I am incredibly indecisive so a data sheet I can quickly look at helps. It also helps in gear swap since everything gets sold so fat you can quickly compare the item to stuff available. It also helps to know all of the weight per oz as far as durability.

I should first say I've never been to the appalacians so I don't know how it rains there but here it's usually straight down or changing wind so for me I feel like I'd need a beak. It doesn't rain just one way so I can't set my tarp on just one side but the flat one doesn't seem like it'd be great if it's really windy.

For two people I like Zpacks w/beak tarp with a bivy and just set up the tarp for rainfall.

`TWO PERSON TENT
zp wscreen/beak 11.1 $400
zp wscr no beak 10.2 $340
Zp tarp wbeak 5 $285
zp tarp no beak 4.1 $225

Plus $95 for groundsheet and $22 for stakes. Adds 3.4 and 1.1 oz. Uses two poles.

Good info Jennifer, thank you. That ZPacks beaked tarp looks like a great contender.

>I should first say I've never been to the appalacians so I don't know how it rains there but >here it's usually straight down or changing wind so for me I feel like I'd need a beak. It >doesn't rain just one way so I can't set my tarp on just one side but the flat one doesn't >seem like it'd be great if it's really windy..

Same here, it can pour straight down or zip around a lot (that pretty much covers most rain, eh? :)). I suspect the old thinking about a flat tarp's universal capability depended on a somewhat big flat tarp to yield enough protected space to deal with shifting rain.

I think we can go with a lighter, smaller tarp if it has some beakage, other things being equal.

I've been using two and three-person RayWay tarps with beaks for about six years now with great success. The only problem I had once was misty rain with a wind shift so the rain started coming in the open end. It was our last night so I was too lazy to get up and reset that end. A better solution when you think the wind might shift is a removable door for one end of the tarp...Jardine calls it a "bat wing."

If you are willing to give sewing a try you can save a fortune and make a tarp. You can buy materials online, or if it's your first effort, buy a RayWay tarp kit.

You might also consider getting Jardine's new book "Tarp Book - Essentials" available on his web site. It goes into great detail on tarps vs tents, how to set up a tarp in almost any condition, common problems, etc. Jardine is a great believer in tarps and he makes a great case in this book. He hiked the AT a number of times with beaked tarps.

I wouldn't say a tent is more "bomb proof" than a tarp. In many ways, it is less bomb proof. With a good tarp and the knowledge to use it, you can adjust it to the weather. If it is nice out, then it sits up high. If things get stormy, you batten down the hatches.

One advantage of a tent is that it is often easier for novices to assemble. This varies depending on the tarp and the tent, but generally speaking, a tent is simpler (because it is more limited). I wouldn't put much weight on that advantage, though, as good tarp skills shouldn't be too hard to learn.

The big advantage of a tent is the integrated bug netting. This is the main reason I use a tent, not a tarp. Most of the time, I'm more concerned about the bugs than I am rain. Of course I need rain protection, but on a typical night, the bugs are a bigger problem. I really like the extra space that I have within a typical tent. I could use a separate bug net, but it will either add to the overall weight (if it is roomy) or not provide much room (if it is part of a bivy). A tent (especially a single walled tent) is a very efficient way to provide lots of room and protection from both the rain and bugs.

Deciding on a tent versus a tarp depends a lot on how much the bugs bug you.

>You might also consider getting Jardine's new book "Tarp Book - Essentials" available on his >web site. It goes into great detail on tarps vs tents

Thank you for that Elliott, I have not checked out Ray's stuff in a long while.

I've been using both a golite cave 1 and 2 in the southern appalachians for 12 years now. The cave 1 is a little short so it doesn't go out in really rainy weather. I have slept under the cave 2 in monsoon level rain and stayed perfectly dry. Actually converted tent users that night since I was dry and they were not.

I almost never use the beaks on the cave 2 though. If a flat tarp is the right size they are just extra weight. And they limit your pitching options. I am actually going to switch to an mld tarp this spring. And retire the cave 1.

I think with the cover available in the appalachians a flat tarp is all that is needed. I've never wanted bug protection or needed a fully enclosed shelter in the 3 main seasons.

Super info Jesse, its so useful to hear from someone camping in the same type of environment. Can you give some details or pointers on the setups that have worked so well for you? What size MLD tarp are you looking at? Do you feel a catenary cut is worthwhile, given the reduced pitch options it brings?

You might have a look at my experiences with the MLD Grace solo tarp. With some additional skills you can stay dry with such a tarp in many windy conditions. Only in case of heavy rain showers / thunderstorms I would choose a tarp with beaks to make a fully enclosed shelter to prevent heavy rain splash or hail stones from jumping under the tarp. Maybe something like the Echo II might suit you well in this case. The trailstar is also very versatile in my experience. Otherwise have a look at something like a mid and be prepared for a higher risk of condensation.

Concerning bugs, if I'm worried about them I'll bring a RayWay net tent, basically a no-see-um netting tent of sorts with a silnylon floor that hangs below the tarp. Actually my wife insists...she wants a completely bug-free environment she can retreat into on buggy nights, and just a head-net won't do.

The combined weight of the tarp + net tent is still less than a comparable tent, and you don't have to bring the net tent if you don't want to. I've also set up the net tent by itself inside a lean-to on buggy nights, and I've used the tarp as a wind-break in a lean-to on a cold and windy night. You can also set up the net tent outside by itself, but I've never been someplace where I was sure it wouldn't rain (in the Adirondacks, White Mountains, Cascades and Denali it rains a lot).

As you can see, I find the combination of tarp and net-tent very flexible and adaptable. I like the beaks because on windy nights you can drop the beak low and block all the wind.

Thanks for that great write up about your grace solo. I have a tarp built to the same dimensions and its good to see how it performs in all kinds of conditions. Where I go I don't have to worry about freezing wind too much as I have a lot of tree and shrub cover. Did you find a waterproof bivy necessary? I ask because my bivy is made of a water resistant breathable top.

I recently went through a similar comparo:

http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/forums/thread_display.html?forum_thread_id=51106&nid=433755

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AhjLmk_trl6BdFMwQnljc1ZaVlVXM1M2NVZnbXdRbEE&hl=en_US

I've decided on a "Wraith" (9 x 7 in .51 CF), but as a flat tarp for versatility:
http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/forums/thread_display.html?forum_thread_id=53314&skip_to_post=449337

Beaks = more tape & bonding = more weight & bigger price generally. Just go for the bigger tarp with that extra weight! GL!

Beaked tarps. I've done most of my camping hiking in the Appalachian mountains. I too, own a golite cave, the "two" person one. I am 6 ft. 2in tall and find this size too small.

The dimensions of the cave which I have are 8ft wide and nine and a half feet long then the beaks add a bit of length a couple inches more. This was considered a two person golite tarp ten years ago when I bought it. I'm not sure what the dimensions of their current model is running.

I have spent many nights in the pouring rain under other tarps and stayed dry, but the tarps I used were at least ten feet by ten feet. I am looking into having one built for me that is 12 by 12. Still a very light weight shelter in silnylon or cuban fiber.

I do think it is instructive to see that Ray Jardine did use a batwing (see his website) which would essentially seal off the ends of his tarp in inclement Applalachian Trail weather. He also used a screen inner tent as well. He is such a pro with such extensive experience, and the type person who analyzes every single angle about effective lightweight trail gear; I can't imagine a better example of a hardcore tarp user...and he used beaks, a batwing, and an inner bug tent on the AT.

The thing about the AT is that it passes through extremely wet forests. You can get 12 straight days of rain in the Southern Mountains, the area I am most familiar with. anywhere else on the trail you can encounter a full blown tropical storm that has come off the eastern coast. I spent three days and nights in such a storm myself up in Vermont on the trail---but this time I was in tent and was I ever happy. Mostly though, I've usually used tarps as a cooking shelter or as a place to eat and have a pot of tea with others and did my sleeping in my tried and true lightweight two person tent.

The thing I like most about tarps as opposed to tents is that if you are setting them up in a howling rain you don't get the inner tent and bathtub floor of your tent sopping wet. In the appalachians, if you go exclusively with a tarp, I would encourage you to plan on using a screen bug tent with a floor that hooks to the underside of your tarp. There are simply too many biting insects and lately many more lyme disease carrying ticks to think about.

For me, I suspect that i will continue to use the tarp as a place for cooking; as a place of refuge in which to have a pot of tea if I find myself in a slashing rain. And will keep my lightweight tent free of food odors, and the tent as my go-to shelter for sleeping.

>He is such a pro with such extensive experience, and the type person >who analyzes every single angle about effective lightweight trail >gear; I can't imagine a better example of a hardcore tarp user...and >he used beaks, a batwing, and an inner bug tent on the AT.

Excellent point. I have ordered his tarp book.

love to learn about some options for adding a beak to my catenary tarp... the hyperlight echo beak idea looks like a great idea but knowing zero about sewing cuben, etc some pointers in creating something like it to fit my mld duo would be much appreciated.
best of both worlds, to use and not use.

thanks

I almost always set up the tarp in an a frame. If it will be really raining I'll pitch It super low or maybe one side low one side high. If it may rain I might set it up as a lean to or a half mid but as I said the beaks kind of get in the way.

I am considering the grace tarp for a solo tarp. Just to cut weight. I think for a small solo tarp a canterary cut is best for most people. Mainly cause it is easier to set up right.

Ok bugs in the Appalachians they are not bad at all. The mosquitos are non existent, ticks are rare unless you are in Alabama, and crawlin bugs are nothing more than a nusicance. If you scope out your campsite the crawlers can be kept to a minimum. Don't camp in the low gaps where there are lots of dead trees and mulch on the ground. Dry ridges are the best campsites in the Appalachians. I do choose my campsite poorly quite often as the bugs don't bother me.

You should be more worried about yellow jackets and hornets if you are hiking in the southern Appalachians. You won't be in a tent when you encounter those anyway.

Here's an 8-year-old article by Ryan Jordan on tarp techniques in bad weather.

I don't have extensive tarp experience in bad weather, but I did use my (now-discontinued) BPL Nano tarp for 3 rainy nights on the Tahoe Rim Trail last year. One of the nights was just a light drizzle, while the other two were 35mph winds with rain and 5 minutes periods of snow and hail. One of those nights was spent mostly sheltered by large trees, but the other was pretty exposed near a lake at 8000'.

I had a bivy, which helped, as there was a bit of splash at the higher pitched head end of the tarp. I got into camp just before dark and campsite selection was limited, so I wasn't able to properly pitch the tarp foot-end into the wind. It was more of a crosswind. A beak would have served the same purpose for splash protection, I think, but I'd take a bivy over a beak, as the bivy adds a bit of warmth to my sleep system whereas the beak would not. But in warmer, more humid weather, the bivy might lead to claminess and/or condensation in your sleeping bag or quilt.

Beyond the bit of splash at the head, I was completely safe and secure as hail crashed down, and it was kind of cool to be so exposed yet protected from such wild weather. One of the advantages of cuben is that I did not have to get up to retension my lines as the night went on, since cuben does not stretch.

To me, the biggest drawback of a tarp in that kind of weather is that it has to be pitched low, (see the pictures of Dr. Jordan in the linked article)leaving little room for manuevering. Not a problem if all you are going to do is sleep. A bit of a pain though getting ready in the morning, and not much room for eating or cooking w/o sitting out in th rain.

If starting again, I might go with something like the MLD Trailstar(solo) + Innernet combo in cuben for maximum protection + room. Or one of the Zpacks tarps.

I thought about the slightly more limited pitch options with a cat-cut tarp vs a flat tarp, but then thought, 'How many pitch options would I ever really use beyond an A-Frame in it's various forms, or a lean-to? I don't think I'd trade the practically idiot-proof set-up of a cat-cut tarp for the extra pitching options of a flat-tarp (which I'd likely never use). Not that a flat tarp set-up is much less than idiot-proof with practice, but with a cat tarp, I pretty much get a tight pitch in minutes w/o even trying.

Edited by jrmacd on 10/04/2011 08:21:51 MDT.

Has anyone tried one of the 4-season tarps out there? They're usually referred to as hammock tarps, but it seems like they ought to work nicely for ground camping as well, since they're basically rectangular tarps with doors. And since they're rectangular tarps, you get the flexibility of a flat tarp with a convenient way to close off the ends.

I've been eyeing these for winter camping myself, but I haven't tried one yet, which is why I'm asking rather than suggesting :)

I'm reading through Ray Jardine's tarp book now, having not read his stuff for about 10 years or so. He still rants against the gear companies but I must admit it is refreshing to see him acknowledge that different things work variously for different people. He used to have a much more dogmatic tone.

I can see his point on the value of the beaks. When weather is mild and the tarp is pitched high with (relatively) steep sides, the beaks extend out and maximize ventilation. When the tarp is slung low and wide the beaks are pointed more downward, improving splash protection.

If you mostly go with an A-frame setup the beaks look to be worth their weight & bulk.