WHAT'S YOUR POINT, KELLY? (From Kelly Cordes' blog): "Thanks, Uri, and sorry ’bout that — I was afraid I might not have explained that very well.
Yeah, on 3), indeed, I climb with my standard system — base, R1 hoody, maybe vest, then shell; and over top I’ll pull on the puff (like a Nano)."
[Your base is not a puffy, your R1 Hoody is a non-puffy synthetic semi-fleece, you said your vest is an R2 fleece vest, and your shell is not a puffy. You seem to be on an anti-fleece rant, but your first four layers are non-puffies. So you use a mini-belay parka a lot, so what? You still have a non-puffy base, hoody, vest and shell, it looks to me like you're relying mostly on fleece and fleece-like garments.

"You can think of the Nano as replacing a warm mid-layer piece — except it’s way more versatile, b/c its location isn’t “mid” but over top (i.e. you don’t have to disrobe to put it on/take it off as the temp fluxes throughout the day)." In my opinion, and I'm not an expert, that is total nonsense. You already are wearing the R1 hoody as a warm mid-layer piece, and the R2 fleece vest as a a warm mid-layer piece. Then you add a mini-belay parka and say that is more versatile because it's location is on the top? WHAT ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT?

maybe he'll reply to your question on his blog.

people use different things that work for em

there are plenty of people who climb in synth puffies ... however do note the conditions ... just because someone can do it on denali, doesnt mean itll work for ya at yr local peak where it may be less cold and more humid

also note that quite of these stories are from climbers whose gear is provided free or at pro deals ... i remember one story where the climbers tore up their nano poofays ... i cant afford to do that on every climb

i suspect that what regular people who have limited income use and who arent well trained athletes may differ quite a bit from what the "pros" use ... of course the gear companies would like you to buy all the latest fanciest gear to make you believe you can be as good as a pro climber ... or some of the alure rubs off on ya the next time yr at the bar with yr dead bird hoody (it works, trust me =P)

the bottom line is that if you really want to climb lots .... youll use anything you can to get climbing ... even if its an old fleece and yr dads hardshell ... and spend yr money on gas/airfare ...

Wow they tore up there gear ? There going hard doing it right I guess :P

they were going much harder and having more fun than i ever will ... or you for that matter, unless you plan on doing a light and fast ascent of denali ;)

i wear stuff out decently and wreck it occasionally ... but not on every climb despite "popular" perception especially not if they are durable, ie not the usual UL gear ... i challenge anyone here that thinks that the 15D nanopuff or 20D of my atom is a good shell to always have rubbing against rock as a midlayer ... maybe on ice it wont matter as much ... but rock???

match the gear to the task at hand and yr wallet ... i made that mistake with the dead bird UL cierzo pack ... 2 months later, there was a big gapping hole in the 100D side fabric, which by the way dead bird recommends for rock/ice/alpine climbing ... weight is ONLY one factor to consider, and NOT the only one ...

and if you wear it out anyways ... u know you had a roaring good time ...

Edited by bearbreeder on 09/23/2011 00:22:50 MDT.

Kelly would answer your question except for one thing...he is in Pakistan at the moment. He'll be back early October. He's a good friend of mine.

Interesting that someone on this forum would ask that question about him. Kelly is known for going "stupid light" (as he calls it) while putting up alpine routes in Pakistan and Patagonia.

Edited by rps76 on 09/23/2011 10:16:07 MDT.

R S: I'm not really intending to dis Kelly. I wouldn't have even mentioned him except someone launched his blog at me personally like a torpedo because I advocate not using puffies EXCEPT AS BELAY PARKAS. That's exactly what Kelly actually does, so his practice is right in line with my position, which means nothing anyway because I'm not an expert. What Kelly SAID seems to trash fleece, but actually he USES a base, a fleece-like R1 hoody, a fleece vest, a non-puffy shell, then one or two belay parkas. My only point to the poster who trashed me is that even his hero Kelly follows exactly what I advocate, what Colin Haley actually does, what Steve House actually does, what Reinhold Messner actually did, and what Mark Twight did and also expains in extended detail in his book, "Extreme Alpinism." So I really have no question for Kelly, I see what he actually does, and since I'm no expert I'm not worthy to criticise him directly.
Since I’m not an expert, Kelly should just ignore me, because nothing I say means anything. But, if he wants specifics, here they are:
1. You said: “We typically think of fleeces, like the R2, as mid-layer insulating pieces.” Reinhold Messner never (as far as I know) used or advocated using a heavy fleece coat as a mid-layer insulating piece. Mark Twight never (as far as I know) used or advocated using a heavy fleece coat as a mid-layer insulating piece. Steve House never (as far as I know) used or advocated using a heavy fleece coat as a mid-layer insulating piece. Colin Haley never (as far as I know) used or advocated using a heavy fleece coat as a mid-layer insulating piece. So, you seem to me to be setting up a straw man, which you knock down, but “we” DON’T think of heavy fleece coats as the usual mid-layer.
2. You said: “I’d get a Nano before an R2, because the former can do what the latter does, but not vice-versa.” You seem to be SAYING that you would wear a Nano-Puff immediately on top of your base, then add you R2 vest, then add your shell, then add a Belay Jacket. But that is not what you say you DO.
3. You said: “I’ll sometimes dress for the warmest part of the day, but bring a Nano and a DAS (not overkill when you consider that the Nano replaces the standard mid-layer fleece, in which you’d overheat half the time).” The Nano is not replacing fleece, you are using it a mini-Belay Parka, in conjunction with a large Belay Parka, but your first four layers are fleece-like materials. Again, Reinhold Messner never used a large fleece coat, nor did the other climbers I mentioned. You said, “So I’m climbing in my basic system, not overdressed, and just pulling on my belay parka (either the micro/Nano or DAS), if even needed, when we stop.” What’s new about that?
4. You said: “The alternative simply doesn’t make sense to me: add/subtract a mid-layer fleece midway up a climb.” Reinhold Messner never (as far as I know) added or subtracted a mid-layer fleece midway up a climb. Mark Twight never (as far as I know) added or subtracted a mid-layer fleece midway up a climb. Steve House never (as far as I know) added or subtracted a mid-layer fleece midway up a climb. Colin Haley never (as far as I know) added or subtracted a mid-layer fleece midway up a climb. Again, you seem to me to be setting up a straw man, which you knock down. You said, “No way. I’m not going to partially disrobe midway up something, tuck in/out my layers under my harness, put the fleece in bottom of my pack where it’ll never again serve any purpose (unless I’m stuck out another night, in which case I’ll have to partially dis/re-robe again). It’s too much hassle, too slow, and you know that the minute you strip off your shell a torrent of spindrift will hit, reminding you that you should be rock climbing.” YOU THINK YOU INVENTED THAT?

Edited by RobertM2S on 09/23/2011 16:09:42 MDT.