"
I guess I am not understanding the argument here. The concern is that a g*n could be used in an offensive way?"

No. One of the concerns is how some that say that anyone carrying is crazy and scary, also say they don't even want to hear talk about it.

"How much of what one says has anything to do with what is really one's belief?


It is said at times when an individual takes a vow of silence for a long enough time that he stops thinking in terms of language. His mind is "open". He interprets stimulus through his sense but does not categorize them the same as you and I would into words.

Language is inherently a limit on our minds. It does help us to try and sort it all out, but it is a very crude method in that the moment you begin to utilize it you begin to limit your openness.

So as to the question "How much of what one says has anything to do with what is really one's belief? It has everything to do with your belief. What you say is what you think, what you think is already limited and closed just on the basis of thinking in language. Yes you could change your stance on a topic like Firearms or no firearms, but it is all framed in the environment of language. Imagine what it would be like to think without words? What would your opinion be then on LNT?

Clint... very astute observation. I had to pull up short and turn to face myself to think of that one. And it's true. Just how would any of us form our opinions if we couldn't resort to words to make our stances? Really have to think on that.

"Depends what the issue is.

Freezerbag cooking vs. in the pot? Yeah, I can be very open minded and polite on that one.

Religious and racial persecution?
Sorry, my open mindedness and tolerance starts to quickly go out the window.

How does one reconcile maintaining an open mind (being willing to listen to and genuinely consider someone else's beliefs) with maintaining personal conviction to certain ideals?

For example, I have a very strong conviction that women should be treated with respect and equality. Do I have to maintain an open mind when someone argues the contrary based on their own philosophical/religious belief system? At what point do we say "Sorry, I cannot accept what you preach" and no longer feign tolerance?

Is being open minded simply being polite?

Are there behaviors and attitudes in this world that do not warrant polite, tolerant responses?

I certainly think so."

--------------------
Thanks Craig. A post showing some actual thought process and reality.

I think Kat is onto something with her original idea that lashing out at a new or potential member discussing firearms is not the way to build the BPL community or the Non-gun carrying community.

Why?

Because the way true change takes place is through sharing, discussion and moral persuasion. To have two individuals talk about a given topic openly and honestly and come to an understanding where the other is coming from. Being open-minded is being willing to have your awareness increased. Even if you disagree, you heard or might hear something you did not before.

For the backpackers who strongly discourage carrying on the trails, How else, besides listening, discussing and moral persuasion will you effect a change to reduce the number of people carrying? Do you lobby legislation to make a law forbidding carrying a gun in the BC? How is that law enforced, same as all laws, in the end at the point of a gun(Atlas Shrug)? Ironic. (not that anyone suggested this, just wanted to point out that avenue of thought)

This goes for most of these issues, LNT, Religion, politics. Laws in the end are only enforced through force. That creates, resentment, fear, inequality. True sustainable change, growth and community comes through sharing, discussion and moral persuasion. Like Kat suggested, maybe being more tactful and open will allow those individuals coming on here, to find an ultralight gun or closest place near a water source to defecate, to learn a new understanding, new awareness, a different way. For all of our laws what we do every day is still voluntary, save hearing the wind move, breathing the air, and blindly blinking...can you blink any other way?

Edited by WalkSoftly33 on 09/23/2011 10:34:41 MDT.

Consider that our identities are being defined by our environment.

For example I have a relative that when ever she sees and individual with out a T-shirt on or some one with dread-locks lets say, she will say to those around her, "trashy, that's trashy!", nodding her head in the direction of the shirtless individuals, making a face.

Now what is she really doing? She does not say that for us around her, so we know her opinion, no she is saying it for herself, she is defining herself, saying that is trashy I am not that, I am this. She is defining herself by her environment. With out the trashy individuals, she would not have a comparison, that part of her identity would not exists.

I think that can be said in relation to Backpacking, LNT, Firearms,. etc. "I" carry an ultralight back pack, that person over there is carrying a 50lb pack. How many times have the members on BPL thought that? Quite a few I guess considering how much we think about our gear. Or when you see someone practicing in your opinion, unethical behavior in the BC, you reaffirm that you do not do that, you do this. In each area of our lives we do this to create our identity. Like what was stated earlier if all opinions were the same no change would occur. But taking it one step further, without gun touting backer packers you non-packing packers would cease to exist.

So how open minded can we be when we define ourselves by our environment i.e. those that are different from us define us and create our identity? Is the level of ego related to the level of being open-minded? Does the ego grow with the frequency an individual sees them self and define them self by there differences with the environment? Does the desire and attempt to understand, create the ego through the use of language to categorize everything, and in doing so view it as separate? Is that why we struggle to come together because we follow the script of a movie, riding the waves of the character role we play in real life?

Edited by WalkSoftly33 on 09/23/2011 11:12:42 MDT.

Clint, your last few posts are reminiscent of a class in semantics I had taken. Limitations in written language and how ideas are framed by written language were big topics of the class. The words we see on the page are, as you mentioned, a rudimentary vehicle for conveying a thought rather than a definitive and complete description of that thought.

It's like I tell my violin students sometimes in their lessons: those notes you see on the page are not the music. Those are just a framework of ideas that the composer has written down for us, and it is up to us to realize the full potential of that framework and construct actual music from it, often trying to infer from that manuscript what the composer actually intended.

Half of my students look at me like I'm nuts.

Close minded or elitist?

I find it odd that a good portion of the posters on this site seem to think that bpl should be anti-gun, anti-hunting and anti organized religion. Or at least think those undesirables should be segregated to their own forum so us elite ultralighters won't be bothered with opinions that may be offensive. Especially given the fact that Ryan Jordan, the founder of this site is an avid hunter, gun owner and is very active in scouting a religious organization.

>I also remember a post about people "buying their way into a 5# base weight"
>And then there is the thread calling anyone who drinks "crappy" beer an a-hole.
>Don't forget the thread where everyone jumped all over a post from another forum because someone kept like 5 trout while horsepacking in the sierra. There were also posts in that thread implying that they didn't work hard enough for their wilderness experience because they rode horses in.

If these are not examples of elitism then I don't know what is.

We are not elite. We are just a group of people that likes going hiking and carrying as little weight as possible. That in no way makes us special or better than anyone else. Hunters, fisherman, mountain bikers, ORVers, all have just as much of a right to use public lands as we do.

we all wanna feel elitist because the true elite are out there doing things, having fun and using up their gear ... instead of arguing on the intrawebs

makes use feel special

and yes those wanna bes include me at the moment cause the weather sucks for climbing in squamish right now =(

This may be nit-picking, but one of the threads you mentioned said that a-holes drink "crappy" beer. That's not the same as "calling anyone who drinks "crappy" beer an a-hole."

I think what we all want to know is, How many animals can I kill and still call my traveling self sufficient ?

Edited by redmonk on 09/23/2011 14:14:21 MDT.

>>""This may be nit-picking, but one of the threads you mentioned said that a-holes drink "crappy" beer. That's not the same as "calling anyone who drinks "crappy" beer an a-hole."<<""

Good point I remembered it wrong.

Joe Clement says:
I will also admit that I find myself increasingly bigoted towards stupid people, but I'm also getting older and becoming more of a jerk, so maybe that's related.

Middle age: When your broad mind and narrow waist start trading places.

;-)

Travis says:
Limitations in written language and how ideas are framed by written language were big topics of the class.

The philosophy of language: A bit like going to a good restaurant, and eating the menu.

;-)

Miguel says:

Clint... very astute observation. I had to pull up short and turn to face myself to think of that one. And it's true. Just how would any of us form our opinions if we couldn't resort to words to make our stances? Really have to think on that.

People who don't use words to think don't have opinions, they have emotional reactions. Language is the mediator between our impulses and actions.

Sometimes, I have to "give myself a good talking to".

Folk who are unable to articulate the feelings that are affecting them suffer from internal pressures they don't understand. This leads to repression, or externalisation in actions, often 'irrational' ones.

As Churchill said: "Jaw jaw, not war war".

That said, there is a high value in practising meditation, awareness without words. The practise of hiking solo for a few days is self instructive in how far we are able to keep our own company without resorting to internal dialogue.

People who don't use words to think don't have opinions, they have emotional reactions. Language is the mediator between our impulses and actions.

Well, I was thinking in terms of someone who normally does use language to process dilemmas or moral conundrums, but takes the time to step back and approach the problem from a new perspective. It's an interesting experiment and forces you to shunt into the middle ground and see what earlier convictions prompted you to take your particular stance in the first place. It's a good way to begin to see the point of view of those whom you disagree with, even takes you into the realm of the third party, where the polarization of the argument ceases to exist.

Have you ever met and interacted with a highly trained Buddhist priest? A great portion of their dealing with stressful or morally difficult conundrums revolves around how to approach a topic for which no words can bring about a decisive conclusion (ie the gun, abortion, existence of a god, health care debates). They use little or no words to approach the problems and have superb control over their emotions. There was an experiment done here in Japan in which a number of people were asked to unknowingly sit in a restaurant next to a pair of loudly, violently fighting spouses, including a number of priests. ECG monitors were placed on each of them to determine their heart rates and level of stress. In almost all cases of the trained priests they were able to successfully control their fear or their anger and to get through the ordeal with little to no elevation in their heart rates or levels of stress. Other people often got to the point where they ended up escaping or shouting at the couple. When asked afterwards why they remained so neutral and calm in such a stressful environment, each other priests answered that they just kept reminding themselves that the fighting couple had no bearing on their own circumstances. Basically they meditated their way through the experience.

Japanese inherently distrust words and often you'll have important and stressful business meetings where everyone will shut down, close their eyes, and wait out the emotional storm until it is possible to talk civilly again. Sometimes I think they resort to it too much, often "bullying" those who have less clout into submission by simply ignoring them, and often failing to reach any consensus because the basis of the problems were never expressed. But it definitely is something that a lot of us could learn from here, especially when the arguments get out of hand. I guess my contention is that the people behind all these online arguments are far more important than the arguments themselves. Start with the basic premise of mutual respect and civility, and be humble about your point of view, before you state what you believe. There is always more to learn. And words don't always express that.

Edit: Rog, I didn't see that last bit about meditation until I'd already written my post. You basically said, in fewer words, what I was attempting to say.

Edited by butuki on 09/24/2011 05:40:04 MDT.

Hi Miguel,

I really appreciate the depth of thinking you put into your responses, and the time you take to compose them and type them. It's really interesting to get insights into other cultures through a person who is originally an outsider, but has long experience embedded.

Considering your internal reaction and the reasons for it embedded in your own psychological makeup and background before externalising is a sign of maturity and time spent getting to know yourself. People who have done this (often as a product of spending time alone in contemplation) tend to stay calmer in emotionally charged situations.

Internet debates often get out of hand because there is opportunity to express strong opinions about the opinions of others without consequences beyond words on the screen. Some people take delight in winding up others to the point of anger just for the excitement of seeing people get wound up and saying things they later regret being drawn into.

No-one wants to see BPL's unusually high standards of debate dragged into the mire. At the same time, no-one wants to see topics being declared off-limits or moderation getting heavy handed. Thankfully we have an unusually high proportion of people here who are adept at leaving trolls and provocateurs to leave in their own good time.

I see a correlation between that and the practice of the pursuit we are here primarily to discuss.

Travis,

Yes, a language or standard gives individuals something to "measure up" against to attempt to understand each other.

Your example of your violin class and half of your class closing there mind, is fantastic. I picture in my mind half of the class reading all the notes on the page and playing it all at once, ignoring the empty spaces between the notes or the intention of the composer. Just as it is with words, with out the spaces of silence or places for resonance there would be no music, no drama, no emotion, no environment just garbledygook.

Side note: Just received as a Bday present my first musical instrument, a Ukelele

Edited by WalkSoftly33 on 09/24/2011 06:34:07 MDT.

Clint, I just recently got a ukulele, too! Have to start practicing!

Miguel,

Not to sidetrack to much from the original post (Lets have an "open-mind" about it) I have already weighed my ukulele and found it is about 15.0oz or 425g, so of course I searched for a lighter one and found this

http://www.captainukuleles.co.nz/backpacker.html

I think they weigh out to about 9oz and could probably go lighter and get rid of the metal amp plug, since it is for hiking and I would not be carrying an amp. Maybe a future purchase for me

I to need to practice my uke, I have a few cords down and a progression or two but cant play a song yet.

Thank you for sharing your description of business meetings in Japan. It was very interesting to hear a different Modis Operandi versus what we have in the US.

Enjoy playing your uke!

Edited by WalkSoftly33 on 09/24/2011 07:03:25 MDT.