Forum Index » GEAR » Male bayonet Butane canisters: why so much cheaper


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Alan Bradley
(ahbradley)
Male bayonet Butane canisters: why so much cheaper on 09/21/2011 07:01:00 MDT Print View

The (male) CP250 valve / CP Twist Fit Bayonet based canisters (used horizontally in picnic stoves) seem much cheaper than Threaded/Camping gas CV cannisters:

why is this?

why create a new (and flawed?) connection with a vulnerable male valve which requires a plastic protective cap on every cannister?

the horizontal cannister and gas means a plastic tube inside cannister: more cost, must be burnt when recycled= flawed?

James Landro
(justaddfuel) - F

Locale: MN
Re: Male bayonet Butane canisters: why so much cheaper on 09/21/2011 08:25:12 MDT Print View

I think because they are already standardized in many industries; Torches for kitches, torches for shops, certain beauty accesories, stoves. More demand for such a product that already has existing fits for it.

Really interesting read on adapters:
http://pedaldamnit.blogspot.com/2010/02/jetboil-personal-cooking-system-remote.html

Stuart R
(Scunnered) - F

Locale: Scotland
Re-sealable canisters: why so much more expensive on 09/21/2011 08:46:40 MDT Print View

I think the question should be: why are re-sealable threaded/twist-click canisters so much more expensive?

Do Lindal charge a fortune for the valve?

Or are we just paying for the (undoubted) convenience?

jerry adams
(retiredjerry) - MLife

Locale: Oregon and Washington
Re: Re-sealable canisters: why so much more expensive on 09/21/2011 17:12:06 MDT Print View

I'de like to be able to use my Lindal stove (like a pocket rocket) with a propane canister because they're cheaper

For car camping where I don't care about weight

Steven Paris
(saparisor) - M

Locale: Pacific Northwest
Male bayonet Butane canisters on 09/21/2011 18:24:18 MDT Print View

Because the male canisters don't have to talk about their feelings after they're used! Ba-dum-dum-dum! Am I right, people?! I'll be in the Catskills all week!

Note: just a really bad joke, these forums seem heavy lately.

Steven Evans
(Steve_Evans) - MLife

Locale: Canada
Re: Male bayonet Butane canisters on 09/21/2011 19:31:45 MDT Print View

ROFL - classic! I loved it!

Hikin' Jim
(hikin_jim)

Locale: Los Angeles, CA, USA
Re: Re-sealable canisters: why so much more expensive on 09/21/2011 23:08:11 MDT Print View

Note to all: Lindal valves come in male and female versions. I believe the male valves in the 100% butane canisters with a bayonet connector are made by Lindal. If not, then they're a knock off. Don't confuse "threaded" with Lindal. Lindal valves are used in all kinds of canisters including Camping Gaz, Powermax, standard threaded canisters, etc. A valve is a valve and a connector is a connector. Lindal is a valve maker. Threaded is a type of connector.

I think the real answer is probably a) volume (there are so many of the 100% butane canisters made for the restaurant industry etc. and b) market segmentation. Backpacking specific canisters are aimed at a specialty market where they can get away with charging more.

Note to Jerry: There are Kovea adapters sold on eBay that allow one to use a standard threaded connector backpacking stove with a 16.2 oz 100% propane cylinder. Be danged careful though. The vapor pressure is going to be much higher. Turn it up slowly.

HJ

Roger Caffin
(rcaffin) - BPL Staff - MLife

Locale: Wollemi & Kosciusko NPs, Europe
Re: Re: Male bayonet Butane canisters: why so much cheaper on 09/22/2011 01:27:07 MDT Print View

> because they are already standardized in many industries;
Yes, volume is one big factor of course.
But the higher boiling point of butane also means a 'butane' canister can be a fair bit lighter too. Combine that with the thin shape and it becomes much easier to meet the DoT requirements. Note however that trying to use one in mid-winter might not be real successful.

Cheers

Alan Bradley
(ahbradley)
Liquid gas mode: why can no use gravity for flow? on 09/23/2011 12:28:16 MDT Print View

Given that liquid flows down hill, is there a reason why abutane only canister couldnt be used in winter by placing slightly above burner height?

Stuart R
(Scunnered) - F

Locale: Scotland
Re: Liquid gas mode: why can no use gravity for flow? on 09/23/2011 14:25:45 MDT Print View

Oh dear. Assuming "winter" = below freezing,
1) You would need a hole in the canister so that air could go in to allow the liquid butane out.
2) The canister would need to be several feet above the canister for there to be enough pressure to force the gas (formed in a pre-heat tube) thru the jet.

jerry adams
(retiredjerry) - MLife

Locale: Oregon and Washington
Re: Liquid gas mode: why can no use gravity for flow? on 09/23/2011 17:49:43 MDT Print View

All you need to do is turn canister upside down - it's called an inverted canister - liquid is at the bottom of the canister, gas at the top - when you invert it, the liquid flows out of the canister - you need a pre-heat tube to evaporate - there are some stoves like this that you can buy.

One bad thing is it weighs a little more because it requires a tube to take the liquid to the burner, with a normal stove it just screws on the top.

Another thing is that liquid butane (or iso-butane) flows through the valve and it's possible the valve will get gummed up, with a regular canister stove gas flows through the valve and maybe it doesn't have this problem.

Stuart R
(Scunnered) - F

Locale: Scotland
Re: Re: Liquid gas mode: why can no use gravity for flow? on 09/24/2011 03:29:34 MDT Print View

Jerry - Alan specifically said "butane only canister".
At sub-freezing temperatures nothing will come out of the canister, inverted or not.

Alan Bradley
(ahbradley)
Was Friday Logic on 09/24/2011 03:35:40 MDT Print View

Yes, I meant a butane only cartridge: was Friday Logic :)

jerry adams
(retiredjerry) - MLife

Locale: Oregon and Washington
Re: Liquid gas mode: why can no use gravity for flow? on 09/24/2011 08:40:45 MDT Print View

What's butane boiling point, 32F or something?

Below that I think butane would still work in inverted mode

There's still enough evaporation happening to create vapor pressure to push out liquid butane

Also, you could warm it in your sleeping bag or wherever. In use there isn't hardly any evaporative cooling by the canister. With top mounted stove pre-warming isn't as effective because it quickly cools off due to evaporative cooling.

But canisters I see in the store are iso-butane so it really doesn't matter about butane.

If you're doing cold weather definitly use iso-butane if at all possible.

Stuart R
(Scunnered) - F

Locale: Scotland
Re: Re: Liquid gas mode: why can no use gravity for flow? on 09/24/2011 12:40:30 MDT Print View

>>>What's butane boiling point, 32F or something?
At sea level, yes.

>>>Below that I think butane would still work in inverted mode
>>>There's still enough evaporation happening to create vapor pressure to push out liquid butane

No. "Boiling point" is defined as the temperature at which the vapour pressure equals atmospheric pressure. Below this temperature atmospheric pressure will be greater than the vapour pressure so nothing will come out.

Antti Peltola
(anttipeltola) - F
Re: Male bayonet Butane canisters: why so much cheaper on 09/24/2011 13:27:30 MDT Print View

These are not completely butane (butane propane mixture), but still cheap around here:
http://brightspark.info/collections/gas-cartridges/products/s6-330g-screw-top-gas-cartridge

I used them on inverted mode at -25C last winter and did not notice any problems. However, that is still quite a lot warmer than -32F.

Roger Caffin
(rcaffin) - BPL Staff - MLife

Locale: Wollemi & Kosciusko NPs, Europe
Re: Re: Male bayonet Butane canisters: why so much cheaper on 09/24/2011 16:54:34 MDT Print View

Interesting. The label does say 'butane propane mixture'.

With the aerosol-style canisters you have to find out whether they have a fixed internal tube, a loose internal tube, or no internal tube. Each sort needs handling differently in the winter. They can work if used properly.

But a word of caution - well, 'some' words actually.
It is highly likely that these come from China. My experiences with Chinese canisters has shown two problems so far:
* the screw thread on some has been so badly formed that a stove would not stay connected. This is not really a safety hazard as the valve would simply stay closed under these conditions (I think).
* the fuel may be full of dust, and the dust can block the jets and valve very quickly when used inverted.

In addition, I am not sure whether the valve is a Chinese copy of the Lindal valve. If so, the items may be in breach of copyright. Even if the copyright has expired, I wonder whether the quality control on the Chinese production matches that of the German Lindal group. I emphasise that I do not know, but I would be concerned.

Cheers

Antti Peltola
(anttipeltola) - F
Re: Male bayonet Butane canisters: why so much cheaper - Chinese canisters on 09/25/2011 07:51:34 MDT Print View

These are likely without the tube as they worked all the way to the end upside down in those cold temperatures. Think I'll sacrifice one half-used can just to see about the dust issue.

I'm thinking about using my normal end of life treatment for the canisters ie. going outside, putting it underwater and piercing it there as this should eliminate the sparks. Now if I do this correctly, the escaping gas should bring the dust into water and leave it there, right? Any flaws in this idea? Which way should the hole be pointing for max "dusting"? Down? Any other things to take into account?

Roger Caffin
(rcaffin) - BPL Staff - MLife

Locale: Wollemi & Kosciusko NPs, Europe
Re: Re: Male bayonet Butane canisters: why so much cheaper - Chinese canisters on 09/25/2011 17:04:37 MDT Print View

Hi Antti

> likely without the tube as they worked all the way to the end upside down in those cold temperatures.
Likely. Cutting an empty open will confirm. Interested in what you find.

> I'll sacrifice one half-used can just to see about the dust issue.
Very interested in what you find. Yes, I had very bad experiences with one Chinese brand. I returned the canisters to the shop in a bad temper, and they did not argue ... :-)

> putting it underwater and piercing it there as this should eliminate the sparks.
I use a Ti tent peg driven into the middle of the valve to break the valve mechanism inside. The Ti does not spark. Works fine for me.

> if I do this correctly, the escaping gas should bring the dust into water and leave it there, right?
Seems right to me.

> Which way should the hole be pointing for max "dusting"? Down?
Seems right to me.

An alternate method is to use the canister upright to the end, then cut it open and look inside.
Another is to run the canister upside down but through a very fine filter. Need the right gear for that though.

Cheers

Stuart R
(Scunnered) - F

Locale: Scotland
Re: Re: Male bayonet Butane canisters: why so much cheaper on 09/26/2011 02:19:14 MDT Print View

These are cheap too: propane butane mix and a standard threaded Lindal valve. No internal tube but lighter when empty than a 100g canster.

CampingGaz canister