>>>I sure hope all hunters are practicing a 100 percent native american lifestyle: use every part of the animal (not just the meat), no hanging trophies on walls, no hunting 'just for sport,' etc.<<<

There is no logic to that statement because hunters in this thread and hunters in general are not claiming or striving to duplicate Indian practices. Anti hunters, on the other hand, are claiming that hunting is wrong.

Every ounce of meat that is harvested by an ethical hunter is 100% free range, organic meat taken in a humane manner. Every ounce of meat that is bought at a store is from an animal that was raised in worse conditions and leads, by comparison an awful life.

Which brings me back to my original point, if you aren't vegan, don't criticize hunting when your lifestyle requires someone else harvest animals for you. If you are vegan and you want to criticize for hunting or just eating meat and using animal products then you have every right.



On the side note of Indians...most Indians kept and displayed numerous hunting trophies from head pieces, jewelry, walking staffs as well as decorated their living quarters with various parts of animals and pictures of hunting. In addition many Indian cultures are virtually littered with legends and stories obsessing over the thrill of hunting and hunting prowess. My belief is that the thrill of hunting today, is passed down through those genes and the basic need and drive for man to obtain and ingest protein.

Edited by TylerD on 09/23/2011 07:45:24 MDT.

I guess you are more enlightened then the vast majority of your anscestors and forefathers because every single one of them "packed" in the backcountry and hunted which is exactly why your alive today. Yes, noble Native Americans also packed and hunted. They were also a big fan of guns.

I'm sure your aware of this since your from Nor Cal, that our national parks and forests are attracting more and more pot farmers each year. The authorities have even admitted that they aren't even making a dent in the problem and they seee no end in site. These growers do in fact "pack" and will not hesitate to protect their crops or to conceal their location. In fact, this July, a park ranger in Sequioa was stabbed by a mexican pot farmer. Two years ago, my brother-in-law was shot at(granted, probably just to scare him, not kill him) while hiking in the Sespe Wilderness. To my disgust, my favorite wild trout stream in the San Bernardino Mts. is riddled with graffittied rocks and signs within 1-2 miles from the trailhead. Are these not good reasons to encourage the prudent and self-reliant person to carry a means of self-defense?

"To my disgust, my favorite wild trout stream in the San Bernardino Mts. is riddled with graffittied rocks and signs within 1-2 miles from the trailhead. Are these not good reasons to encourage the prudent and self-reliant person to carry a means of self-defense?"

No graffiti is not a good reason to carry a gun. I wouldn't see graffiti down the street and turn my car around to go get a weapon for fear of spray paint. As for your brother and the ranger? If if's and but's were candy and nuts we'd all have a merry christmas. More people are murdered outside of national forests and it was by people who don't NEED guns.

"I guess you are more enlightened then the vast majority of your anscestors and forefathers because every single one of them "packed" in the backcountry and hunted which is exactly why your alive today. Yes, noble Native Americans also packed and hunted. They were also a big fan of guns."

Yeah, they were until they were victims of genocide by guns. If you haven't been to a pow wow lately, guns are not a factor.

"My belief is that the thrill of hunting today, is passed down through those genes and the basic need and drive for man to obtain and ingest protein."

I think it's evolution, though, that gives us the LOGIC to think, "I don't need to corral, make miserable, and murder animals or chase down and murder animals, I can go to 7-11 and get a little bag of nuts." What other caveman things are people doing these days?

Also, I am not alive today because of guns. Guns are an extremely new technology in the span of human life (unless you believe the earth is only four years old we rode dinosaurs as creationism has explained). I've been a vegetarian for 9 years so please don't give me any krap about how nuts aren't as good as "free-range, organic" animals who were having the good times before tragically shot by a hunter. This is not doing them a favor as implied because they weren't in miserable conditions. Factory farming is one of the worst ideas by man but I think it's about time all that is left behind, human's should grow, flourish, and become better. Backpacking is the way we connect with nature and I think that's why it's unnerving to imagine slaughter and violence (pot growers, and those who need protection?) in our sanctuaries.

Jennifer, I assume since you stated that you are a vegetarian and not a vegan that you use animal products. In that case yes, you don't need to hunt down, corral, chase, farm or slaughter animals...you just need someone else to do it and put it in a store so you can buy it. Out of sight out of mind right?

"No graffiti is not a good reason to carry a gun. I wouldn't see graffiti down the street and turn my car around to go get a weapon for fear of spray paint. As for your brother and the ranger? If if's and but's were candy and nuts we'd all have a merry christmas. More people are murdered outside of national forests and it was by people who don't NEED guns."

I guess I need to spell this out more clearly. Graffiti is typically produced by gang members and the like and gang members like to do bad things to good people. Driving by a graffitied wall in the safety of your car is a far cry from being in the backcountry away from the safety of law enforcement etc. If you don't live by "if's and but's" then I assume you don't carry a wistle, signaling mirror etc. in the backcountry for the chance scenerio when these items are required for survival?

"I think it's evolution, though, that gives us the LOGIC to think, "I don't need to corral, make miserable, and murder animals or chase down and murder animals, I can go to 7-11 and get a little bag of nuts." What other caveman things are people doing these days?"

How can you say that's what evolution leads to when the majority of people eat meat? Oh, that's right, you and the small splinter of society that are vegan/vegetarian are more enlightened and evolved than the vast majority of not only everyone alive today but all those who have lived before you. You don't find it odd that the most intelligent animal eats meat?

"Also, I am not alive today because of guns. Guns are an extremely new technology in the span of human life (unless you believe the earth is only four years old we rode dinosaurs as creationism has explained). I've been a vegetarian for 9 years so please don't give me any krap about how nuts aren't as good as "free-range, organic" animals who were having the good times before tragically shot by a hunter."

Is it guns you hate or weapons of any kind? Logically speaking, they are one in the same since they both have the potential to kill, therefore, you should have the same level of anamosity towards the bow and arrow wielding native americans as well as neanderthal's, er, hunters. Allow me to clarify my original statement; You are alive because your ancestors used weapons to defend themselves and kill animals for food. I hope that's not too provocative of statement. My whole point here is vegans/vegetarians should practice some humility discussing their beliefs with meat eaters. Making the case that it's a healthier lifestyle is fine but to question our humanity and mental health is a form of hubris that most find highly distasteful and arrogant.

and I will now solve both this thread and the "What Would Jesus Carry?" thread in one fell post

http://youtu.be/taih2zUOmIM

[/humor]

"Jennifer, I assume since you stated that you are a vegetarian and not a vegan that you use animal products. In that case yes, you don't need to hunt down, corral, chase, farm or slaughter animals...you just need someone else to do it and put it in a store so you can buy it. Out of sight out of mind right?"

I knew a self proclaimed "vegetarian" that ate pork and chicken. I take titles of vegetarianism and veganism very seriously. Unless you never eat out you can't be a vegan because you don't have immediate access to all ingredients and even then some ingredients have different derivitives that could be animal or vegetable. Then you'd have to contact the company and wait for a response. I drink soy milk, and eat soy cheese and free-range eggs (about two cartons a year) at home. If veganism were common it'd be easier but I've found that it is not and it's expensive. I eat incidental dairy and eggs like birthday cake, dairy in sauces at restaurants etc. I know it's horrible and have spent many a night up thinking about the poundage of dairy I consume feeling guilty. It's not out of mind, I wish they'd outlaw it so I could not partake and wider, better, cheaper options would become available. The amount of dairy I consume in a year amounts to one milking day of a cow and that's my impact. No one is hunting down, chasing, or slaughtering animals for me.

Ethical vegetarians don't not eat meat so we make everyone else feel like monsters. I cry every time I see the humane society commercial, I can't watch peta videos and it took me four hours to watch The Cove. I have serious emotional breakdowns and hate the world at large so I just can't. I'd devote my life to the cause but I can't handle it. You really shouldn't pick at this subject, I try to keep it out of sight but it's never out of mind.

"How can you say that's what evolution leads to when the majority of people eat meat?"

The MAJORITY of the population now is also fat, diabetic (or pre-diabetic) and watch the Kardashians. I think that's devolution. And the reason so many people eat meat is because it's the societal norm passed on to every generation and u.s.d.a subsidies cause fast food hamburgers to be less than a dollar. If everyone knew what kind of toxic krap they are eating, the environmental impact of the industry and saw the conditions and murder of the animals I would hope they'd change their minds. Evolution would be using logic not primitive, old world thinking that just keeps our guts rotting, and the corn and meat industry running. With all the new health advancements, rampant cancer and the internet to spread information we should be better off but alas we're devolving.

"Is it guns you hate or weapons of any kind? Logically speaking, they are one in the same since they both have the potential to kill, therefore, you should have the same level of anamosity towards the bow and arrow wielding native americans as well as neanderthal's, er, hunters."

Ha! Really?! The American Indians couldn't just go to the grocery store for some gardenburgers, tempeh, tofu, etc. In an apocolyptic world you and I could hunt and kill all the animals for survival necessary but I believe that's the point. The weapons are not necessary, meat is not necessary. It's an outdated, thoughtlessly accepted way of life. So if we want to talk about ignorance.

i luv it when people moralize about stuff like meat ... or other such

i casually mention that the best dog i ever had was in some small restaurant in guangzhou ...

when they start moralizing even more ... i just tell em its the free range dog ... so its healthy and had a good life ... no caged dogs for me

they usually start shouting then ... i then just go on about how its part of my cultural heritage and how chinese have eaten dogs even before their ancestor came over on the mayflower and started the turkey tradition ...

dog does keep u warm on a cold winter night ;)

@ Jen- might be easier if you step up on this :)

Edited by mtwarden on 09/23/2011 12:53:21 MDT.

"The MAJORITY of the population now is also fat, diabetic (or pre-diabetic) and watch the Kardashians".

Not really. Maybe a significant percentage of the American population, but there is a lot of population in the world besides that one, and they are not fat, not by a long shot.

I'm sure that was a comment to tick me off but it might be more appaling to someone that does eat meat because I view the chicken just as important as the dog.

Cultures should change and adapt not do the same thing just because it's what's done. The chinese middle and upper class are clashing with the lower class for eating stray dogs. I could also argue, though, how special dogs are in that they can sense when a human is going to have a siezure. I'm not close-minded, if the dogs were going to be put down anyway (like the 3.5 million dogs and cats euthanized every year in the united states) they might as well have fed the poor. It's when they are being bred to be eaten that tick me off because the time, money and space could be spent on a field of edamamme or protein rich adzuki beans. Better for the consumer, the environment and the animals. That's evolution.

> I have serious emotional breakdowns and hate the world at large so I just can't. I'd devote my life to the cause but I can't handle it. You really shouldn't pick at this subject, I try to keep it out of sight but it's never out of mind.

I'm sorry, but you opened the door a few posts earlier. You can't extoll the virtues of your beliefs then request others don't "pick at it" because you can't handle how the world works. I'm not gonna rip on your choices to be an ethical vegetarian, but again, you can't go on about how bad meat eaters are and then get upset and offended when people push back.


"meat is not necessary. It's an outdated, thoughtlessly accepted way of life."

Says who? You? I think vegetarians chastising meat eaters is an outdated, thoughtless approach to your cause.

I truly enjoy eating meat. I like steaks on the grill, I LOVE smoked brisket, tuna fillets, ham at Thanksgiving, turkey and swiss sandwiches.... I'm aware of how some companies treat their animals and inject the meat with chemicals. That is why I buy organic meat whenever possible. It ain't perfect, but it helps.

Edited by T.L. on 09/23/2011 13:06:56 MDT.

no i just find dogs to be particularly tasty ...

course i cant get that in vancouver ... but i do luv my horsemeat sashimi that you can eat legally here ... its soft, tender and taste like lean beef ..

i think they may be ponies cause they are so tender ... hmmmm

what gets me is these yuppie sushi munchers preaching about a "no meat" lifestyle ... and yet they are eating blue fin tuna which is endangered ... while im just eating dogs or horses which are in no sense endangered

but hey ... thats life ... i dont force my dog eating one anyone ;)

"The MAJORITY of the population now is also fat, diabetic (or pre-diabetic) and watch the Kardashians"
Not really. Maybe a significant percentage of the American population, but there is a lot of population in the world besides that one, and they are not fat, not by a long shot."

Sorry, I forgot the semantics. The population in america, where we are, not the entire world. "That’s the finding of the latest Gallup-Healthways Well-Being Index, which shows that 63.1% of adults in the U.S. were either overweight or obese in 2009."

Now I should also mention the rest of the world. If we weren't stuffing cow, chicken and pigs with all the massive (subsidized) corn crops we could feed the world's impovershed.

Yeah, PETA kills a crapload of animals too.

Edit: "Now I should also mention the rest of the world. If we weren't stuffing cow, chicken and pigs with all the massive (subsidized) corn crops we could feed the world's impoverished."

I do agree with you that there are many, many problems with the economics and logistics of the distribution, consumption, and special preferences given to certain goods.

Edited by T.L. on 09/23/2011 13:20:20 MDT.

Semantics are not trivial, especially in an online conversation. Ya just gotta be careful with what you post, more so in topics like this.

It's not semantics, it's a hyperbole.
Jen, you are bringing up all kinds of interesting subjects that get people heated up. You have to expect that people will respond. There are some heavyweights here on BPL, and I am not one of them. I am just pointing out inaccuracies that end up weakening your legitimate point of view.
I have started some arguing here on BPL myself and , at times, been humbled rather quickly. So, go for it by all means, but be careful out there. So far people have actually gone pretty easy.

Edited by Kat_P on 09/23/2011 13:35:56 MDT.

"I truly enjoy eating meat. I like steaks on the grill, I LOVE smoked brisket, tuna fillets, ham at Thanksgiving, turkey and swiss sandwiches.... I'm aware of how some companies treat their animals and inject the meat with chemicals. That is why I buy organic meat whenever possible. It ain't perfect, but it helps."

So you know organic doesn't mean better living conditions it just means they weren't pumped full of hormones and/or antibiotics. So you understand that only helps you?

Jennifer....how can you feel good about eating those free range eggs. You stole babies from those happy life free ranging hens. How do you think those hens felt? I'm assuming they have feelings too since you think fish have emotions(earlier post). You didn't even give those yolks a chance to develop into a chick to have a happy free range life!

Is catching a fish one time and letting it go more harrassing to a fish than it is for the one cow you cause to have her womanhood harrassed each year? I mean cows have feelings too right? I'm sure you wouldn't want to be groped once a year.

I mean, really........

Animals are very close to humans right? Well I don't think you would like it if a man impregnated you, then left you immediatley to leave you to raising the young, which is what 98% of the aninal kingdom does.

Seems to me like you need to get off the meat eaters(by the way fish,dogs,cats etc etc you love so much are carnivores too) and start campaining against all the dead beat dads in the animal kingdom.