"but what about vit B12? ..vitamins, essential amino acids, essential polyunsaturated fatty acids, dietary minerals O2 and H2O are all absolutely essential for life, ie if you do not take them, you die. "

Yes b12 is essential. Vegetarians who eat dairy get plenty and the body stores excess in your liver. I don't consistently eat dairy but let's see it's in my cereal, my soy milk, my smart dogs, my sports drinks, and clif bars and when I remember I take a multi-vitamin. All that other stuff isn't a problem.

"That people advocate a plant-based diet and use data to support their point...should be welcomed in a forum that advocates lighter, better designed backpacking gear...but at the same time, if hunting is discussed, certainly the ethical and health ramifications are fair game."

Huh? Are you seriously trying to make the argument that it's okay to question someone's choice to hunt and eat the game they take, but it's not okay to question someone's choice to abstain from the consumption of meat or to bash hunting?

Look, those on both sides of this debate should appreciate the fact that we live in a time and place where we have the choice of what we're going to eat, and how we're going to get it. Our ancestors were not so lucky. In hard times, they ate some pretty disgusting stuff or went hungry.

I don't care what you eat or how you get it. Just don't tell me that my choice is wrong. There is no right way, and we're all just one disaster away from losing this choice, so let's not belittle it by telling one another that we're wrong!

Scott

nm
done feeding this one

Edited by Kat_P on 09/23/2011 17:19:13 MDT.

Yes I did mispell empanadas. My wife found a recipe online for them after I had talked about eating my weight in them in Buenos Aires, Argentina years ago. Spanish is not something I am very good at spelling. Just sounded it out from my memory.
Typing on a smartphone is done with my thumbs. Sometimes I think I have pressed a key and I didn't. Hence the lack of an e at the end of your. I haven't had a smartphone very long and don't text at all. People text me. So I am still not good at it.
(btw is possesive, not possesion.)

The word gonna. It's not correct according to Noah Webster, however I was under the understanding that this is not a newspaper being edited for correct english. Man if you could only hear me talk. I am from Alabama and yes I have a deep draw. I also use words like fixin, aint, yunder etc. I know correct english. I have won awards for speeches that I have written. I bought my first guitar with the earnings from winning a nationwide essay contest.

Look. You probably think I'm ignorant since I am from the South.
I understand your convictions. I also appreciate them. I don't agree with you and that is fine with me. Like I said earlier, my sister is a Vegitarian. I have never given her heck about it. Nor would I. I understand why some don't like guns. I understand why some dispise hunting. I do not understand why someone would tell me that I am wrong for what I do. If there was no deer hunting in my state, then deer would quickly overpopulate, have incest, become diseased and have limited food. This may not be the same in all states as Alabama has one of the highest deer per acre ratio in the world. I have taken a diseased deer in my life. I have taken crippled deer in my life. I have also taken a deer so old it couldn't move. I would much rather help control the popullation than see those things multiplied. Yes I hunt turkey, but I also contribute funds to the NWTF each year which has completely turned around the turkey population from being extinct. The NWTF is completely funded by hunters. If it were not for hunters turkeys would be extinct if not now in the near future because of the increase of coyote and raccoon population due to a lack of hunters hunting these predators. I know this doesn't justify hunting for you.
Its my outlook on it. I would hope that understand that. I am sorry if I offended you. Yes I did attack you verbally and I am sorry for that as well. Its hard for me to keep silent about hunting rights. I do contribute to organizations who fight legislation against us hunters, so maybe I should just leave it to the experts and keep my sanity and my relationship with others in tact.
I'm going to leave the computer now to go through mine and my wife's checklist for our trip this weekend. I just didn't want to leave this with a bad attitude towards you and didn't want you to think I'm a total jerk. We would probably have a great time if we met under different circumstances, as I seem to be able to run in pretty broad circles.

Have a great night.

@jen: My point was that the lifestyle (veganism) is incompatible with life. If you are missing something that kills you, you should look at the choices that led you there. We will die without eating animals and animal products. Period. That should be taken as eating meat is at least not wrong. Its only in your cereal because someone discovered it and put it there with processing. Without modern chemistry veganisim is unsustainable. Its the simple truth that without complex first world chemicals we absolutely 100% need to consume animal products.

""That people advocate a plant-based diet and use data to support their point...should be welcomed in a forum that advocates lighter, better designed backpacking gear...but at the same time, if hunting is discussed, certainly the ethical and health ramifications are fair game."

Huh? Are you seriously trying to make the argument that it's okay to question someone's choice to hunt and eat the game they take, but it's not okay to question someone's choice to abstain from the consumption of meat or to bash hunting?

Look, those on both sides of this debate should appreciate the fact that we live in a time and place where we have the choice of what we're going to eat, and how we're going to get it. Our ancestors were not so lucky. In hard times, they ate some pretty disgusting stuff or went hungry.

I don't care what you eat or how you get it. Just don't tell me that my choice is wrong. There is no right way, and we're all just one disaster away from losing this choice, so let's not belittle it by telling one another that we're wrong!

Scott"


Obviously any forum topic closely related to hunting will bring about the discussion of whether or not it is ethical. That is a topic which can be debated ad-nauseum without either party coming to a rational consensus.

What is strange is how this thread has taken the tangent to how hunting is health related. I would argue that game animals are largely a healthier alternative to what is available at the local grocery market. Most health-conscious meat-eaters opt for free-range, organic, etc., etc. meats and dairy foods. Game animals are not injected with hormones or antibiotics and are truly free-range animals.

Keeping in the "what is healthier for you" idea, we are currently free to eat whatever we like regardless of its effect on our health. When the government begins to tell us what is right and wrong to eat (because they're footing the insurance bill), that is when we can tell others that their personal choice is not ok.

(edited for spelling, not for grammar)

Edited by cobberman on 09/23/2011 17:45:28 MDT.

Scott, I appreciate your line of questioning and will attempt to address them the best I can below:

"Huh? Are you seriously trying to make the argument that it's okay to question someone's choice to hunt and eat the game they take, but it's not okay to question someone's choice to abstain from the consumption of meat or to bash hunting?"

I never stated that someone can't question my choice to abstain - heck, I question it when I am at my favorite restaurant and no longer partake in dishes that contain meat or dairy. It's a struggle, believe me. I would invite anyone to question the choice to abstain - you should question the logic and science behind such a decision and investigate it for yourself. Nor do I discount the possibility that the dietary guidelines are flawed or could be improved upon. Certainly, if we accept that science generally improves over time, I suspect results will support, refute or (most likely) produce mix results as to the merits of a plant-based vs. omnivore diet.

Nor did I write that your choice is wrong. I said that that there is data and evidence that diets rich in animal fats have negative impacts upon health.

"Look, those on both sides of this debate should appreciate the fact that we live in a time and place where we have the choice of what we're going to eat, and how we're going to get it. Our ancestors were not so lucky. In hard times, they ate some pretty disgusting stuff or went hungry."

We agree that we live in a time when food is relatively plentiful and easy to obtain. You are correct, we do have a choice of what to eat. And I suggested that a plant-based diet is, based upon evidence I've read, healthier than other choices. The evidence I've cited is up to debate - as are the conclusions drawn from that data.

But you have touched upon an important fact when it comes to our choices. Human physiology (and really, any animal) is conditioned to go after fats and calorie-dense foods. This is a survival instinct, an animal wants to get the food that would provide the most caloric nourishment while in turn, expending the least amount of energy to obtain it. Fats are high in calories. Hence, the reason we are attracted to fatty foods: caloric density!

"I don't care what you eat or how you get it. Just don't tell me that my choice is wrong. There is no right way, and we're all just one disaster away from losing this choice, so let's not belittle it by telling one another that we're wrong!"

I never said you choice was wrong - what I stated was that there is a lot of evidence that suggests health is related to diet, and that a diet rich in plants is healthier than one high in animal-based fats at this point in human development (this is assuming that we are talking about western diets which are already calorie dense and food plentiful).

I did suggest there are ethical considerations that are up for debate when it comes to these choices, and therefore, a value judgment does come into play. If a person feels that animals have rights that extend beyond the right to be consumed by humans, then they very well might consider the practices and choices of the omnivore to be "wrong." But I wasn't debating those choices, just discussing the ramifications of diet and the boundaries of debate.

Edited by dirk9827 on 09/23/2011 18:38:38 MDT.

Not every thread must devolve into a discussion of ethics and morality. In fact, I would find it quite annoying if asked about recipes for turkey dinner and instead got diatribes about how ethical it is to eat meat.

The same can apply to threads about gear where I could rant about the ethics of buying synthetic materials that deplete our natural resources and pollute the environment.

So no, a thread about a lightweight revolver need not nor need welcome a discussion of the ethics. Feel free to start a separate thread if you must.

"We will die without eating animals and animal products. Period."

Vegans exist and are not dead. Period.

"That should be taken as eating meat is at least not wrong."

Because you don't want to take a mult-vitamin once a week doesn't make killing animals right... You see my entire unchanging point is that it's UNnecessary and we should evolve away from it.
"Its only in your cereal because someone discovered it and put it there with processing. Without modern chemistry veganisim is unsustainable. Its the simple truth that without complex first world chemicals we absolutely 100% need to consume animal products."

You win. So by your words we'd only need to eat animals and animal by products is if civilization collapses? I can live with that. So you and me will not consume animals unless we lose "complex first world chemicals" from our cereal THEN we'd have to drink some cows or goats milk once a week to get the essential b12 you're so worried about and still be vegetarians. Deal?

BTW, animal production is UNSUSTAINABLE. Look in any environmental article and they'll mention the pollution from factory farms and:

"According to a new report published by the United Nations Food and Agriculture Organization, the livestock sector generates more greenhouse gas emissions as measured in CO2 equivalent—18 percent—than transport. It is also a major source of land and water degradation."

"When the government begins to tell us what is right and wrong to eat (because they're footing the insurance bill), that is when we can tell others that their personal choice is not ok."

No, if the U.S. government decides to take on health care, then they need to accept that people do all sorts of risky things. The U.S. government can't force me to participate in a health care program and then tell me to stop taking risks that I enjoy because it results in higher health care costs. That's called tyranny, and it is why the U.S. is no longer a British colony!

Likewise, if I'm forced to participate in a health care program paid for by taxes, then other taxpayers can't tell me not to take risks.

Scott

"I sure hope all the anti-hunters are practicing a 100% vegan lifestyle, no leather seats in their cars, no down in their sleeping bags, no leather shoes, belts, etc."

Then the debate began...

Cause you disagree with me about something.

"When the government begins to tell us what is right and wrong to eat (because they're footing the insurance bill), that is when we can tell others that their personal choice is not ok."

No, if the U.S. government decides to take on health care, then they need to accept that people do all sorts of risky things. The U.S. government can't force me to participate in a health care program and then tell me to stop taking risks that I enjoy because it results in higher health care costs. That's called tyranny, and it is why the U.S. is no longer a British colony!

Likewise, if I'm forced to participate in a health care program paid for by taxes, then other taxpayers can't tell me not to take risks."

Who posted that? You may not understand that what obama is trying to do is make people who would still otherwise be treated anyway, pay up to an insurance company ahead of time. You should look into how much money we spend as a nation for uninsured people who develop cancer from smoking. There's no benefit to smoking or eating too much and becoming unhealthily overweight. Being overweight cause more health problems than anything else (cardio, cancer, diabetes etc.) I've been waiting for the govt. to ban smoking for too long and applauded when cali banned trans fats in restaurants.

If a lightweight gun is fired deep in Alaska and no UL hikers are around to hear it, did it make a sound?

Wow, 68 new posts...and all I got out of it is that it seems like eric chan is always hungry. And that he eats interesting things. I think I had horse in Argentina one time...at least they told me it was horse.

"If a lightweight gun is fired deep in Alaska and no UL hikers are around to hear it, did it make a sound?"

Were any animals around and did they hear it?

"Not every thread must devolve into a discussion of ethics and morality. In fact, I would find it quite annoying if asked about recipes for turkey dinner and instead got diatribes about how ethical it is to eat meat."

I do generally agree - If you asked for a turkey recipe I wouldn't jump in on the plant-based bandwagon. I might not have a recipe to contribute, but then again, I find the most useful argument to subscribing to any point of view to be a "show me" rather than "tell me" stance.

So, with that much said, here is the positive benefit of being a vegan that anyone on this site should be able to get behind:

I have become significantly lighter since abstaining from dairy and meat.

I have lost 30 pounds without a huge amount of daily exercise (went from 208 to 178 thus far). I am not starving myself, rather, I find it easier to control calorie intake by eating a diet rich in plants and low in fats. My cholesterol is lower. I feel better. It will keep me on the trail longer because of a lower impact upon my joints.

I am working to lose more - I would like to get down another 15 pounds to 160-165 or so. Maybe more, like when I finished the PCT at 154 pounds. (That's what kind of kicked off this diet change - I never stopped eating the crap that I ate on the PCT - packed back on the pounds in no time flat!)

And really, we are here to backpack light, right?

I can think of no better way to achieve that goal than to lose weight, increase fitness, and in the end, shave whatever we can off our pack weight. Everyone can agree that whether that gear includes a bag full of almonds, a generous portion of beef jerky or a lightweight revolver, it helps if the person carrying it isn't overweight.

Dirk

Jenn, you started the fire early on in the thread. Hard to believe you are assigning the blame elsewhere.

Guy asks about a gun and you jump in with insinuations about him shooting you and your dog.

I read an interesting article recently about how AGW/Climate Change has not generated the hoped for traction with the general public, so now "they" are going to focus on our diet instead.

I couldn't tell if the article was written tongue-in-cheek, but it is food for thought. ; )

Maybe we can merge this thread and the Carbon Flame War thread into one Mega-thread.

Mmmmmmm, tostadas compuestas, chorizo y papas, red chile pork, tripas, green chile chicken enchiladas w/ a fried egg, huevos rancheros, barbacoa tacos, lengua, some of my favorites.

Vegans in southern New Mexico eventually come out of the closet, it only takes a few visits to a traditional mexican restaraunt and a couple Pacifico's to loosen up their TVP munching appetites. ;-)


Tofu fajitas? Soyrizo? Tortillas made without lard? Meck, no way!